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Post by audiosyndrome on Jul 22, 2018 17:30:57 GMT -5
The Sonore and SOtM devices are network bridges. Ethernet packets in, USB packets out. I agree with DIYJohn very little difference between the two. I would not however purchase either companies “ultra” version without listening to the standard version first.
The difference is a “better” clock which should make no difference whatsoever as any modern USB DAC throws away the incoming clock and substitutes its own internal clock.
Russ
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 22, 2018 17:37:58 GMT -5
The Sonore and SOtM devices are network bridges. Ethernet packets in, USB packets out. I agree with DIYJohn very little difference between the two. I would not however purchase either companies “ultra” version without listening to the standard version first. The difference is a “better” clock which should make no difference whatsoever as any modern USB DAC throws away the incoming clock and substitutes its own internal clock. Russ Agreed. My current DAC already has a very good USB input. |
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Post by brubacca on Jul 22, 2018 18:16:18 GMT -5
I’ve noticed a few of you with the Sonore micrRendu are stating that they run rather hot, have I read that right or is it just the power supply? I haven’t a clue why if its the player but I will share that my network player and atached power supply run cool to the touch. Im using the matched sMs-500 power supply made by soTm. Ive you want hot, I give you the Mytek Brooklyn. It runs about as hot as the Emotiva DC-1. I assume all that heat is the result of it toroidal l power supply. This is a known thing with the mR and the iFi power supply. Depending on how the USB is implemented on the DAC (forget the details) the current draw on the USB port makes the unit hot with the 9V supply. I do believe the designer says that there is no issue that the case is meant to dissipate the heat. That being said many think that it is too hot to the touch for their taste. I haven't been following the threads, but when I was there had been no failures due to this heat (this was along time ago and may have changed). Boomzilla - These are network to USB bridges Add Any USB DAC that works with Linux. It makes any DAC a network player. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jul 22, 2018 18:20:53 GMT -5
Nick - Pardon my confusion, but what exactly IS the soTm device you're talking about? Looking at photos of it on Google, it looks like it has some USB ports on it and an Ethernet input. If it's a DAC, where are the analog outputs? In other words, I see lots of inputs, but nothing looks like an output. What does this thing do & how does it work? The website isn't much help... Don't let the other guys fool you - they are talking about the tech behind the toaster. Mark (OK - not...just drive on over to his place and enjoy...) |
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Post by brubacca on Jul 22, 2018 18:36:23 GMT -5
Nick - Pardon my confusion, but what exactly IS the soTm device you're talking about? Looking at photos of it on Google, it looks like it has some USB ports on it and an Ethernet input. If it's a DAC, where are the analog outputs? In other words, I see lots of inputs, but nothing looks like an output. What does this thing do & how does it work? The website isn't much help... To be specific. The USB port that is oriented in the vertical direction is a USB output. The two horizontal ports are inputs for music drives and the ethernet is also an input. |
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Post by novisnick on Jul 22, 2018 19:48:49 GMT -5
Ill be happy to clarify your question Boomzilla soTm is a company based it South Korea that makes a few “audiophile” devices. They have a very good reputation from what I've gathered. I’m using two of their products in conjunction as they are said to be paired perfectly, by outside opinions of audiophile reviewers. The first device is the soTm network player, the sMs-200 Ultra Limited Edition. A network player is a device that will play data over a wired or wireless computer network, in this case we are interested in the audio quality mostly. It is capable of sending music to a maximum of eight different devices simutaniously. The Limited Edition has additional upgrades of an eABS-200 absorber sheet which they claim helps to eliminate EMI noise. All internal wiring is replaced with silver wire as well in this edition.The second in this duo is the sPS-500 power supply ( which we’ll abbreviate as, PS ) which has a selectable outup switch, dependent on what its powering and its needs. More about the technical aspects can be found here; sotm-usa.com/collections/sotm-ultra/products/sms-200ultra-crux-audio-special-editionThe Ultra is a computer / player with its own operating system that is viewed and controlled by a seperate computer/server via the network. The interface or operating system is called “ eunhasu “ . It connects the main computer with the network and the Ultra. One of the reasons for using this player is to seperate it from the noise and corruption of the server computer. The Mac Mini has the main storage and networking choars. The Ultra does have the ability to run an external harddrive directly from it via one of its two USB ports. We’d like to use all of the power supply resources for the Ultra only, because most people find the player sounds better in that configuration. So how does the music get from the source to the speakers? I wont go into the many ways we can do this at this time as it would require another artical. Ill be using Roon which is software specifically designed to integrate storage and streaming services remotely. In my case an Ipad loaded with Roon as an interface for selecting music to be played. Lets stick with the physical connections. The main computer, in my case a Mac Mini has the storage of my music on an external harddrive connected to it. The Mac Mini is also connected to the network and communicates with the Ultra in that manor via the interface ( euhanu ). The Mini also sends the music to the Ultra in this same manor and in turn the Ultra sends the music to the DAC which in my case is the Mytek Brooklyn. They are connected by way of a USB cable. This answers the bulk of your question. I’ll finish the chain by saying the DAC sends the audio to my McIntosh C220. I could use the Brooklyn as a preamp and send the music directly to the amps but I do like the tube sound of my preamp and Im must familiar with what it does to sound. Omitting it would just confuse my memory of sound and music. Ive blathered on and on and I apologize for that. If Ive missed something or you have any further questions don’t hesitate to ask. |
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Post by novisnick on Jul 22, 2018 19:59:45 GMT -5
The Sonore and SOtM devices are network bridges. Ethernet packets in, USB packets out. I agree with DIYJohn very little difference between the two. I would not however purchase either companies “ultra” version without listening to the standard version first. The difference is a “better” clock which should make no difference whatsoever as any modern USB DAC throws away the incoming clock and substitutes its own internal clock. Russ Agreed. My current DAC already has a very good USB input. Im so lad the two of you were there while I was negotiating the deal I made to review this gear. Maybe I could have done better. Thanks for your input gentlemen. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jul 22, 2018 21:44:39 GMT -5
Sounds like you have found a really nice solution! Enjoy!
Mark
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Post by novisnick on Jul 22, 2018 22:00:58 GMT -5
Sounds like you have found a really nice solution! Enjoy! Mark You as well! |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 22, 2018 22:11:05 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification - it's appreciated.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 22, 2018 22:25:21 GMT -5
klinemj & novisnick - It sounds to me as though both the devices you guys are describing are digital interfaces - One (or more) types of digital stream in & another out? I firmly believe that what you hear is valid, but I'm not sure that "adding another box" is what I want to do. I just got away from Ethernet streaming because I caught JRiver lying to me about 16.44 vs. MP3 streaming, so I'm not eager to return to Ethernet at all. I also am not convinced that USB is the best option for digital audio transfer. My Mac Mini is currently streaming via HDMI, although I have TOSLINK optical and USB available (from the Mac Mini) also. I haven't had time to comparatively evaluate the three, but I'm getting really good results with that HDMI interface... I've also gone through a Roon trial, and although it was more honest about what was coming out than JRiver, I've already beaten the JRiver learning curve, already own it, and ultimately found no aural advantage to Roon over JRiver. So unless I hear something that I haven't before from a MicroRendu or the SOtM, I just don't see myself going down those roads. Cordially - Boom
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 22, 2018 23:33:37 GMT -5
klinemj & novisnick - It sounds to me as though both the devices you guys are describing are digital interfaces - One (or more) types of digital stream in & another out? I firmly believe that what you hear is valid, but I'm not sure that "adding another box" is what I want to do. I just got away from Ethernet streaming because I caught JRiver lying to me about 16.44 vs. MP3 streaming, so I'm not eager to return to Ethernet at all. I also am not convinced that USB is the best option for digital audio transfer. My Mac Mini is currently streaming via HDMI, although I have TOSLINK optical and USB available (from the Mac Mini) also. I haven't had time to comparatively evaluate the three, but I'm getting really good results with that HDMI interface... I've also gone through a Roon trial, and although it was more honest about what was coming out than JRiver, I've already beaten the JRiver learning curve, already own it, and ultimately found no aural advantage to Roon over JRiver. So unless I hear something that I haven't before from a MicroRendu or the SOtM, I just don't see myself going down those roads. Cordially - Boom The MicroRendu has no WiFi capabilities so you will need to use an Ethernet connection so it can join your particular network. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jul 23, 2018 8:03:36 GMT -5
klinemj & novisnick - It sounds to me as though both the devices you guys are describing are digital interfaces - One (or more) types of digital stream in & another out? I firmly believe that what you hear is valid, but I'm not sure that "adding another box" is what I want to do. I just got away from Ethernet streaming because I caught JRiver lying to me about 16.44 vs. MP3 streaming, so I'm not eager to return to Ethernet at all. I also am not convinced that USB is the best option for digital audio transfer. My Mac Mini is currently streaming via HDMI, although I have TOSLINK optical and USB available (from the Mac Mini) also. I haven't had time to comparatively evaluate the three, but I'm getting really good results with that HDMI interface... I've also gone through a Roon trial, and although it was more honest about what was coming out than JRiver, I've already beaten the JRiver learning curve, already own it, and ultimately found no aural advantage to Roon over JRiver. So unless I hear something that I haven't before from a MicroRendu or the SOtM, I just don't see myself going down those roads. Cordially - Boom They are devices that do the same thing, indeed. Just different versions of a streamer. Personally, I'd rather not "add a box" either but the sound is compelling so far. And, if you read the 1st post in my review, you'll see that I could not find any sound difference between Roon and either JRiver or Tidal direct from my PC. FYI, you don't have to use Roon with the microRendu. I chose to so I could try Roon to see what all the fuss was about while I tried the microRendu. The following are the output modes you can use with it and what the output formats for each are: Mode #1 - SqueezeLite Output - This output works with any Logitech Media Server and compatible controllers. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM, DSD/DoP, and native DSD. Mode #2 - ShairPort Output - This is an AirPlay emulator that utilizes streams sent to it from a compatible source. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM. Mode #3 - MPD/DLNA Output: Mode #3a - DLNA Output - This output utilizes streams from UPNP/DLNA servers and controllers. This output can be configured as an OpenHome renderer. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM, DSD/DoP, and native DSD. Mode #3b - MPD Output - This output is intended to work with a SMB mount. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM, DSD/DoP, and native DSD. Mode #3c - Songcast Output - This output accepts streams from your computer running Linn Songcast. The application is in Beta form. Mode #4 - HQ Player NAA Output - This output utilizes streams from Signalyst's HQ Player running on your computer. Digital signal processing is performed by HQ Player and then asynchronously streamed to the Network Audio Adapter (NAA) output. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM, DSD/DoP, and native DSD. Mode #5 - RoonReady Output - This output utilizes streams from Roon. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM, DSD/DoP, and native DSD. Mode #6 - Spotify Connect Output - This output can be controlled by your computer or tablet running the Spotify application. This application is based on librespot - an open source client library for Spotify. The application is in Beta form Mark |
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Post by wilburthegoose on Jul 23, 2018 8:13:14 GMT -5
Cost is about $1400?
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jul 23, 2018 8:40:15 GMT -5
For the sotm sms-200 ultra special, yes.
Mark
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Post by sahmen on Jul 23, 2018 9:03:54 GMT -5
Well don't forget the optional, but additional power supply, the SOtM sPS-500 Power Supply ($500), and the USB isolator/power/reclocker, the SOtM tx-USBultra ($990 - $1200). Again, these are optional. However, the best reviews I have seen of the SOtM seem to suggest that the player, power supply, and the reclocker need to work together for best results, and that's the rub. See this review, for example, which compares the SOtM "Trifecta" with the Sonore Signature Rendu, which is another hunter of "deep pockets" in its own right, at least from my own perspective. www.audiostream.com/content/audiophile-conundrum-sonore-vs-sotm |
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Post by DYohn on Jul 23, 2018 9:08:02 GMT -5
As has already been defined, the Rendu or SoTM or any of the many other similar devices are Ethernet to some other digital output converters that have been created to run specific music server client software. They are networked audio players. Many of them require use of a DAC of some sort, many have DACs built in.
The two advantages of using a networked audio player are:
1) taking advantage of using an Ethernet network and distributing the system. This means the server, which might include noisy fans and hard drives, can be in a room other than the listening space. This means the user can install several players anywhere they can get an Ethernet signal (wired or wifi depending on the devices used) and have them all access a single server, as well as the Internet for services delivered from the web. The user can control them using another device on the network. If the user places the music server within S/Pdif or USB cable reach of their music system there is no need for a distributed playback device at that location.
2) Being able to use client-server software to optimize delivery of media. This may or may not have an impact on the system sound or overall performance, but it can, and the convenience and user experience provided by such a setup can be something the user desires or enjoys.
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Post by DYohn on Jul 23, 2018 9:31:24 GMT -5
And by the way for those of you who think the solutions being discussed are too expensive, I recommend you Google the dcs Network Bridge or the Moon Audio Mind 2 Network Player or any of the network products from Aurender.
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Post by KeithL on Jul 23, 2018 10:06:44 GMT -5
I've just got to chime in here and remind everyone to be especially mindful of distinguishing differences in equipment from differences that are really just differences in the content itself. (There are also some places in the digital signal chain where there is room for doing things better or worse - and others where, while you can either get it right or fail to get it right, you cannot improve it past perfect.)
And, yes, the CD, SACD, and DVD-R versions of a given album, or even the Red Book and DSD layers on the same hybrid SACD, can be quite different.
Many people also forget that different CD reissues are often mastered very differently. Even more surprising, sometimes even CDs that appear the same, with the same date on them, aren't identical. (And it's not uncommon to see different versions of the same CD where some songs are bit-for-bit identical but others are not.)
And, of course, MQA reissues have been completely remastered - so they can be very different - and not always for the better. (Bear in mind that MQA is not just an attempt to directly reproduce the master more accurately - they are applying PROCESSING in an attempt to "improve" it - so it will often be different.)
Also, as a few people have already noted, sometimes we just listen more carefully... and, when you listen more carefully, you often hear things you never noticed before.
(And, once you've noticed something that pleases you, or that annoys you, you tend to continue to notice it.)
[cute picture omitted] Im actually playing the instrumental version of this LP via AIFF 16 bit 44.1 kHz from my hard drive via network. Nope. Its not Christmas but I really love this LP and know it intimately! I can comment about differences in the soun, dynamics and feel of A Charley Brown Christmas if there are any. And there are many in the audible reproduction of these tracks. Piano has an intimate and warm feeling that flows through the music vs troddong along like it sounds playing directly from the Mac Mini to the Mytek Brookly or Emotiva DC-1. A cohesiveness that escapes so many well played songs. I can tell more precisely where the individual instruments are in the room as well. Im hearing the foot peddle and depressing it as the music plays. Im not accustomed to this as I haven’t a clue how to play but I can hear it for the first time so very clearly. Its befuddling that this has occurred to me for the first time. Ive never been a big fan of the drums as a forefront instrument, always just filler and and add on I could usually do without, almost. Ive always enjoyed the upright bass for such duties. But, in the last few days Ive taken more notice and appreciation of them. Not just as a beat or add on but as part of this type of music. Jazz seems to need this drum set for the first time with me. Im going to take a break and listen to the same LP from Tidal in full MQA 192 kHz |
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Post by KeithL on Jul 23, 2018 10:40:19 GMT -5
Absolutely. And BOTH Ethernet packets and USB packets provide "packetized data" - so BOTH must be re-clocked to avoid introducing jitter.
(There is simply no such thing as "a perfectly jitter-free Ethernet signal" OR "a perfectly jitter-free USB data stream".)
Fifteen or twenty years ago, virtually all DACs used Isochronous USB inputs, and derived their data clock by regenerating the incoming clock using a PLL (phase-locked loop). Because those PLLs had only limited effectiveness at removing jitter, those DACs were very sensitive to jitter on the incoming signal, and derived significant benefit from various types of data re-clockers. However, virtually all modern DACs now use an Asynchronous USB input, which uses its own local clock (there are a few exceptions). As a result, those modern DACs are both almost totally immune to jitter on the incoming data signal, and totally unable to derive any benefit from reducing it. (It doesn't matter how good the incoming clock is because it is going to be discarded and replaced with the local clock anyway... so the quality of the signal in terms of jitter will depend solely on the quality of the local clock.) This explains why the owner of a certain DAC may experience a huge benefit with a certain data re-clocker while the owner of a different DAC hears no difference at all.
Of course, in a given DAC, the USB input and S/PDIF inputs use different circuitry, and so one or the other may be better designed, and they may sound different. In that case, if you use a separate "USB-to-S/PDIF converter", you are substituting your external USB input circuitry for the USB circuitry inside the DAC.
As a result, the new USB input circuitry you've substituted may perform differently than the original. However, it may be better or worse than the original, and the DAC's internal USB circuitry may be better or worse than its S/PDIF circuitry.
You should not assume that using a separate USB-to-S/PDIF converter, and a DAC's S/PDIF input, will perform better than the DAC's USB input - it may or may not. And, because most modern USB inputs have their own data clock, but most S/PDIF inputs do not, you may find that the S/PDIF input is sensitive to variations in jitter, while the USB signal is not. (It's interesting how many devices, some quite expensive, claim to "reduce jitter", yet fail to provide any measurements whatsoever in support of that claim.)
Many people also seem to have distinct opinions that one or the other input type is "better"; the reality is that it depends on the quality of each type of input circuitry on the particular DAC you have - and neither is inherently or universally better. The Sonore and SOtM devices are network bridges. Ethernet packets in, USB packets out. I agree with DIYJohn very little difference between the two. I would not however purchase either companies “ultra” version without listening to the standard version first. The difference is a “better” clock which should make no difference whatsoever as any modern USB DAC throws away the incoming clock and substitutes its own internal clock. Russ |
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