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Post by monkumonku on Aug 11, 2018 11:05:40 GMT -5
Hi Mark - This brings up a very interesting question - Is the change in Linda's voice actually on the recording or not? If so, then your components that "lift veils" are actually distorting what they're being fed. If not, then your components (the MR & UR/SGC) are truly "lifting veils." This is, ultimately, a relativistic question, and without having a "source reference" recording, you may never know whether or not your components are accurate or merely euphonic. This is just another way of saying that you can't tell whether the muffling of Linda's voice was really on the recording or not. Is it possible that the "extra detail" you're hearing is from a slight frequency response bump in the presence range? The only conclusion that can really be drawn is that your MR & UR/SGC combo either sounds better to you (or not). This is the dilemma for all reviewers. Unless you were present at the original performance, you're at the mercy of the recording. Great review, by the way - thanks! Boom A very good point and there's no way for me to know for sure. Given what I am hearing across the board (see comments about bass, mids, and highs across many different recordings) and how suddenly I can hear little details that got obscured before (and these are coming across a range of frequencies) - I feel pretty confident that all I am hearing is truly in the recordings, and not just on Linda's stuff. In other words, I think it's unlikely to be a frequency bump since I hear the change across a range of frequencies. I think it's noise reduction playing a major part. And, thanks for the comment about the review...appreciate that. Mark Boom brings up a good point. I hear the same thing you did with Linda's recordings. For example, her "Simple Dreams" album. I remember when I had the vinyl that it was an excellent recording but I was shaking my head when I got the CD because it sounded lifeless. Like you said. she sounds like she's in the background or singing through a towel or something. As I recall, the original was processed using the Aphex Aural Exciter which has something to do with using the secondary harmonic distortion of tubes and I wondered maybe that process didn't mesh well with the transition to digital, for some reason. What helped tremendously was the Schiit Loki equalizer. I adjusted it to emphasize the upper mids and to a lesser degree the high frequencies and that really brought her voice forward as well as added clarity to all the vocals and instruments. So like Boom said, a bump in a portion of the frequency range could be responsible for the sort of changes you heard although I can't imagine an electronic device like that shifting things in a significant manner when it is supposed to be flat. In Linda's case I don't think noise is an issue because regardless of listening through speakers or headphones there's no real noise to deal with, it was just what I think is less than satisfactory recording quality. |
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Post by klinemj on Aug 11, 2018 11:23:48 GMT -5
A very good point and there's no way for me to know for sure. Given what I am hearing across the board (see comments about bass, mids, and highs across many different recordings) and how suddenly I can hear little details that got obscured before (and these are coming across a range of frequencies) - I feel pretty confident that all I am hearing is truly in the recordings, and not just on Linda's stuff. In other words, I think it's unlikely to be a frequency bump since I hear the change across a range of frequencies. I think it's noise reduction playing a major part. And, thanks for the comment about the review...appreciate that. Mark Boom brings up a good point. I hear the same thing you did with Linda's recordings. For example, her "Simple Dreams" album. I remember when I had the vinyl that it was an excellent recording but I was shaking my head when I got the CD because it sounded lifeless. Like you said. she sounds like she's in the background or singing through a towel or something. As I recall, the original was processed using the Aphex Aural Exciter which has something to do with using the secondary harmonic distortion of tubes and I wondered maybe that process didn't mesh well with the transition to digital, for some reason. What helped tremendously was the Schiit Loki equalizer. I adjusted it to emphasize the upper mids and to a lesser degree the high frequencies and that really brought her voice forward as well as added clarity to all the vocals and instruments. So like Boom said, a bump in a portion of the frequency range could be responsible for the sort of changes you heard although I can't imagine an electronic device like that shifting things in a significant manner when it is supposed to be flat. In Linda's case I don't think noise is an issue because regardless of listening through speakers or headphones there's no real noise to deal with, it was just what I think is less than satisfactory recording quality. While I do agree boosting certain frequencies could make Linda sound better, the fact that I was hearing more clarity in her voice, more clarity in bass, more clarity in very high notes (like off the high guitar and mandolin work on Ripple and the piano on Oscar Peterson) and just across the board tells me what I heard is not likely from a just boost in certain frequencies. Also, when I used to play around with EQ, I could always tell certain ranges were boosted - it sounded artificial. This doesn't - it sounds very natural. You and boom should try one of the high end network streamers. They are surprising. Mark |
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Post by brubacca on Aug 11, 2018 11:35:43 GMT -5
The mR was the upgrade that made me question all the previous upgrades I did. I'm happy where I ended up, but I'm not so sure that I might have stopped sooner.
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Post by klinemj on Aug 11, 2018 13:50:13 GMT -5
The mR was the upgrade that made me question all the previous upgrades I did. I'm happy where I ended up, but I'm not so sure that I might have stopped sooner. The MR and now the UltraRendu have certainly made me wonder "why did I wait so long to try something like this?" Going to the UltraRendu is perhaps the single biggest jump in sound quality I have had, with the only exception being going to the Maggies from the Paradigms. Mark |
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 12, 2018 9:15:45 GMT -5
Hi klinemj - You previously liked Roon, Mark, or am I mistaken? Does Roon work with the UR+? Also, what do you think of the new Roon streamer, the Nucleus+? Thanks - Boom |
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Post by klinemj on Aug 12, 2018 11:05:22 GMT -5
Hi klinemj - You previously liked Roon, Mark, or am I mistaken? Does Roon work with the UR+? Also, what do you think of the new Roon streamer, the Nucleus+? Thanks - Boom I had not previously tried Roon before I demo'd the MR. Check the link at the first post of this thread to my review of Roon and the MR. I was a "Roon resister" as I didn't see the value over using jRiver and Tidal out of my PC to my DAC. In trying Roon, I learned there is a learning curve, but I also now feel it is "the" best option I've seen for controlling streaming audiophile music...whether out of a PC to a DAC or to a device like the MR or UR or the like (and even an R-Pi). A key reason for my conversion isn't what Roon offers, but rather what my old solution does not. Specifically, Tidal can't play to devices like the UR/MR/R-Pi or DLNA devices, etc...there is no way to select them as an output. As a Tidal lover, this is a requirement for me. jRiver could not play Tidal before - which was my main hope of getting Tidal to play through devices like the MR/UR/R-Pi). So...jRiver now "officially" can play Tidal, BUT...it barely works, does not work without sound quality issues with MQA files, is "clunky" at best, AND it cannot play Tidal to a network device (despite their wiki pretty clearly saying it can). If you try this with jRiver, your PC will lock up so tight you will have to do a hard shut-down and reboot. Further, I found jRiver's customer service to be pitiful and insulting to users vs. Roon to be top notch in customer service. Net, I have moved from being a Roon Resister to a Roon Lifetime member. On the new Roon streamer, I have not even looked at it. Mark |
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 12, 2018 12:00:45 GMT -5
Thanks kindly for the feedback, Mark - I tried Roon but didn't find it any better SOUNDING than jRiver. And since Roon was relatively expensive, and I already owned jRiver, I've stayed (so far). I'm NOT a Tidal fan, and also wasn't blown away by MQA (two other reasons not to get Rooned). But the Roon hardware streamer may (not for sure, but may) change the balance. I agree with you wholeheartedly about jRiver service being somewhere between non-existent and insulting. But if I went to the Roonies, I'd still need a stereo preamp, and I've YET to find one that lit my fire. The few (VERY few) great preamps I've met over my audio journey include: Frank Van Alstine modified Dynaco PAS McIntosh C41 Audio Research LS something (tubed) So note that two out of three were tube preamps. BUT - (and this is a J-Lo sized one) - getting a good match between preamp and power amp is even rarer. The VA-PAS worked well with the Adcom GFA-1 power cube. The C41 worked well with the McIntosh MC-352, and the Audio Research worked well with the Emotiva XPR-2. But change ANYTHING in any of those pairings, and uh-oh... But I digress - So far as Roon - my jury's still out. |
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Post by klinemj on Aug 12, 2018 13:03:53 GMT -5
Thanks kindly for the feedback, Mark - I tried Roon but didn't find it any better SOUNDING than jRiver. And since Roon was relatively expensive, and I already owned jRiver, I've stayed (so far). I'm NOT a Tidal fan, and also wasn't blown away by MQA (two other reasons not to get Rooned). , it But the Roon hardware streamer may (not for sure, but may) change the balance. I agree with you wholeheartedly about jRiver service being somewhere between non-existent and insulting. But if I went to the Roonies, I'd still need a stereo preamp, and I've YET to find one that lit my fire. The few (VERY few) great preamps I've met over my audio journey include: Frank Van Alstine modified Dynaco PAS McIntosh C41 Audio Research LS something (tubed) So note that two out of three were tube preamps. BUT - (and this is a J-Lo sized one) - getting a good match between preamp and power amp is even rarer. The VA-PAS worked well with the Adcom GFA-1 power cube. The C41 worked well with the McIntosh MC-352, and the Audio Research worked well with the Emotiva XPR-2. But change ANYTHING in any of those pairings, and uh-oh... But I digress - So far as Roon - my jury's still out. I looked at the Roon Nucleus Plus, and it does seem like an interesting option. I'd like to know what its sound quality is like vs. a MR or UR or other similar devices. Like you, I found Roon doesn't sound better than jRiver, so I wonder if their device sounds better than a PC/MAC as source. As far as what it says it does, it doesn't sound like it adds any more convenience for using Roon nor any compelling reason to try the hardware over a MR or UR. And the price...$2498! Yikes! I got Roon + my UR + a power supply for less than $1500. As for jRiver being insulting, if I shared the e-mail I received from Jim Hillegass, you would see insulting of customers taken to a new level. But, I won't. Mark |
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 12, 2018 13:06:28 GMT -5
So I understand you to say that mr. Hillegass is as big an A** as what J-Lo sports?
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Post by klinemj on Aug 12, 2018 13:09:12 GMT -5
So I understand you to say that mr. Hillegass is as big an A** as what J-Lo sports? Based on what I experienced, that would be a fair assessment... Mark |
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Post by DYohn on Aug 12, 2018 13:57:37 GMT -5
re: Roon nucleus. I have not used it but let me say with certainty that if someone wants to use a stand-alone music server there are many options including DIY that work perfectly. So don't think you have to buy into one of the purpose-built systems, although if you want to then by all means they look like they are easy to use.
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Post by novisnick on Aug 12, 2018 14:13:07 GMT -5
re: Roon nucleus. I have not used it but let me say with certainty that if someone wants to use a stand-alone music server there are many options including DIY that work perfectly. So don't think you have to buy into one of the purpose-built systems, although if you want to then by all means they look like they are easy to use. Intel NUC Roon Rock is an inexpensive little project that will do almost everything the Roon Nucleus or Nucleus + will do. Not very difficult from what I gather about it. |
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Post by DYohn on Aug 12, 2018 14:23:41 GMT -5
re: Roon nucleus. I have not used it but let me say with certainty that if someone wants to use a stand-alone music server there are many options including DIY that work perfectly. So don't think you have to buy into one of the purpose-built systems, although if you want to then by all means they look like they are easy to use. Intel NUC Roon Rock is an inexpensive little project that will do almost everything the Roon Nucleus or Nucleus + will do. Not very difficult from what I gather about it. True, although it is limited by the capabilities of the Intel NUC device. FWIW, I built a fan-less platform using an AMD processor, 8Gb RAM, a fast MSI motherboard, a 60Gb SSD for the OS and originally 2Tb spinning drive for less than $500. And since it's in a mid-tower case I've since expanded the drive space to 3X 2Tb. As soon as 3D NAND technology gets cheaper, the WD Red spinners will become part of my backup NAS. |
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Post by novisnick on Aug 12, 2018 14:52:20 GMT -5
Intel NUC Roon Rock is an inexpensive little project that will do almost everything the Roon Nucleus or Nucleus + will do. Not very difficult from what I gather about it. True, although it is limited by the capabilities of the Intel NUC device. FWIW, I built a fan-less platform using an AMD processor, 8Gb RAM, a fast MSI motherboard, a 60Gb SSD for the OS and originally 2Tb spinning drive for less than $500. And since it's in a mid-tower case I've since expanded the drive space to 3X 2Tb. As soon as 3D NAND technology gets cheaper, the WD Red spinners will become part of my backup NAS. True again. For anybody that has the ability to build a simple PC these devices are very basic. For about $500 you get an easy to assemble 4” X 4” server. add your HD loaded with music.   |
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Post by klinemj on Aug 12, 2018 15:10:19 GMT -5
I bought an assembled NUC like that, and I had high hopes for it. But, its performance was horrid...and I am talking the basics of even reacting to a keyboard and mouse. It was likely a fluke with the specific one I bought. But, it left a sour taste in my mouth and I gave up that direction. But, I do seriously think the one I bought must have had a defect...nobody would buy one if they were as bad as the one I had.
Mark
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Post by novisnick on Aug 12, 2018 15:21:28 GMT -5
I bought an assembled NUC like that, and I had high hopes for it. But, its performance was horrid...and I am talking the basics of even reacting to a keyboard and mouse. It was likely a fluke with the specific one I bought. But, it left a sour taste in my mouth and I gave up that direction. But, I do seriously think the one I bought must have had a defect...nobody would buy one if they were as bad as the one I had. Mark Sorry to hear that Mark. As I’m sure you know but others may not the keyboard and monitor are only for setup of the unit. Everything else is done via wireless device, ie, Ipad or other device. Which cpu did you spring for? They are up to an Eighth generation now. Like you said, I dont think they would have gotten this far if they were Schiit. |
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Post by klinemj on Aug 12, 2018 15:28:50 GMT -5
I bought an assembled NUC like that, and I had high hopes for it. But, its performance was horrid...and I am talking the basics of even reacting to a keyboard and mouse. It was likely a fluke with the specific one I bought. But, it left a sour taste in my mouth and I gave up that direction. But, I do seriously think the one I bought must have had a defect...nobody would buy one if they were as bad as the one I had. Mark Sorry to hear that Mark. As I’m sure you know but others may not the keyboard and monitor are only for setup of the unit. Everything else is done via wireless device, ie, Ipad or other device. Which cpu did you spring for? They are up to an Eighth generation now. Like you said, I dont think they would have gotten this far if they were Schiit. Mine was even worse with wireless control. It was just super-sluggish overall. I'd enter a command, and it would sit there and appear to do nothing. And I mean...for minutes at a time. It was a fairly new one...less than 9 months ago. As I mentioned, I think it was defective, but I decided not to mess with them. I found a cheap Dell PC that was also fanless for $125 and was using it. I'm either going to sell it or use it for something else now that I am using Roon to send tunes to my R-Pi and the headphone setup. Mark |
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Post by kenj on Sept 24, 2018 10:31:50 GMT -5
have you thought of bridging the Ultrarendu and Roon Core server (needs 2 ethernet ports on core PC)?
I also have the XMC-1 and want to stay in a budget more aligned with your setup.
current setup - Tower HTPC (like gaming PC) USB & HDMI to XMC-1 running JRiver.
I have been thinking of building a Roon ROCK for core and adding the UR and LPS (thanks for comments on lower cost power option).
ROCK appliance vs. HTPC w/Ultrarendu:
While the UR helps with upstream noise I worry that simply using my HTPC with video card, drives, etc. would add harshness (electrical noise). Not sure how bridging the HTPC running ROON Core on Win10 w/UltraRendu would compare with ROCK - Ethernet - Ultrarendu w/LPS)
This can get crazy expensive as I read about $2K+ DAC (currently use XMC-1 DAC) and I remember using a $2K tube pre-amp when I was stereo only.
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Post by kenj on Sept 24, 2018 10:47:58 GMT -5
Sorry to hear that Mark. As I’m sure you know but others may not the keyboard and monitor are only for setup of the unit. Everything else is done via wireless device, ie, Ipad or other device. Which cpu did you spring for? They are up to an Eighth generation now. Like you said, I dont think they would have gotten this far if they were Schiit. Mine was even worse with wireless control. It was just super-sluggish overall. I'd enter a command, and it would sit there and appear to do nothing. And I mean...for minutes at a time. It was a fairly new one...less than 9 months ago. As I mentioned, I think it was defective, but I decided not to mess with them. I found a cheap Dell PC that was also fanless for $125 and was using it. I'm either going to sell it or use it for something else now that I am using Roon to send tunes to my R-Pi and the headphone setup. Mark If you build the i7 Intel NUC as ROCK (a dedicated LINUX appliance for ROON Core) wouldn't that address the issues? It is supposed to be easy to update and server music from NAS. It's not used like a multipurpose Windows PC (which is why I'm wondering if I need it vs. bridging my HTPC w/UR). Also, for best sound quality ROON suggest running CORE on separate PC from End-point (i.e. NUC for CORE and Ultrarendu as end-point feeding DAC). |
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Post by klinemj on Sept 24, 2018 12:10:17 GMT -5
kenjI think you are over-complicating things. While you can go the NUC route, they can get very pricey very quickly. That's why I have a cheap Dell as my Roon core. The sound improvements I note in my first post in this thread were from using my cheap PC (ones can be had for as low as $115 refurbished and work fine) hard wired to the internet and the ultraRendu gets its signal from the same network. I'm having no problems at all with my system. My comments about the NUC I tried that had an issue were just in response to someone else asking about NUC's. I'm sure most are fine...I think I got a defective one. As far as whether you could have a computer with 2 ethernet ports, one providing network information to/from the PC and one providing network info to the rendu...I suppose you could. In my setup, I have a wall jack and plug a gigabit switch into it. Then, the switch feeds multiple devices near my stereo...1 PC, the ultraRendu, the XMC-1, and my Oppo 105. With the low price ($14-$35) of good quality switches, that's the easy way to go, IMHO. Mark
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