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Post by Cogito on Aug 13, 2018 19:25:21 GMT -5
While CDs have fallen greatly over the past 10 years (Probably due mostly to Digital Downloads and Streaming), they still managed to sell 169 million units in 2017.
I don't buy many CDs now, as I've pretty much bought what I like already and as I've noted elsewhere in these forums, most current music simply sucks horribly IMO. Once in a while however, I do find a gem in the rubble that is worthy of my hard earned money. Most of these I discover via music streaming.
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Post by Loop 7 on Aug 13, 2018 19:52:02 GMT -5
“Does anybody remember the last time they bought a CD?” I estimate over 95% of my music consumption is streaming. I purchased a CD in June ONLY because it was not available on TIDAL nor Spotify. I average 1-2 disc purchases (used) per year and I predict that number will only decrease moving forward. In fact, I'm ready to part with my massive classical CD collection which, at one point, was my pride and joy. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 13, 2018 19:57:02 GMT -5
When I find a streaming service that:
Offers EVERY commercial cut I already own, including the muy-obscure ones
Offers EVERY song in their catalog in CD-quality or higher
Allows me to supplement their online selection by uploading my home-recorded songs to their server
Has sufficient stability that I needn't worry about them failing and losing all my uploads
Offers a user friendly interface with excellent metadata capabilities
Offers all non-compressed formats including (at a minimum) FLAC and WAV
Offers compressed formats including MQA
Offers a user-friendly interface
Does NOT require a dedicated box to access their servers
Has an iPad interface for controlling their software
Offers multiple servers in multiple areas for instant access and low latency
Offers a reasonable price structure
Then I'll be a'streamin'. Until then, I'm obligated to keep my own library, and if I have to do that, then there's no sense spending extra money!
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Post by siggie on Aug 13, 2018 19:57:27 GMT -5
“Does anybody remember the last time they bought a CD?” Best Buy CEO Hubert Joly asked rhetorically when he confirmed the fate of the CD at the nation’s largest consumer electronics retailer earlier this year." Does anyone remember the last time they went to Best Buy? siggie |
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Post by gus4emo on Aug 13, 2018 20:55:56 GMT -5
“Does anybody remember the last time they bought a CD?” Best Buy CEO Hubert Joly asked rhetorically when he confirmed the fate of the CD at the nation’s largest consumer electronics retailer earlier this year." Does anyone remember the last time they went to Best Buy? siggie Just there last week, I have a great relationship with them.... |
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Post by Cogito on Aug 13, 2018 21:00:36 GMT -5
Does anyone remember the last time they went to Best Buy? siggie Just there last week, I have a great relationship with them.... Isn't that special...  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2018 21:33:24 GMT -5
I'm still a cd buyer. I only buy used when a cd title is no longer available to purchase new. I average somewhere around 200 cd purchases a year. I enjoy searching for new and old bands that catch my interest to add to my collection. This month so far I've bought 12.
I know cds days are numbered but I will continue to buy them until they are gone. I normally don't do downloads but sometimes the artist only has it available for download. So I create a cd-r of it.
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Post by novisnick on Aug 13, 2018 22:10:14 GMT -5
Just there last week, I have a great relationship with them.... Isn't that special... i too have a great relationship with my local Best Buy, and yes it is special! 😁🎶🎶🎶🎶 |
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Post by Loop 7 on Aug 13, 2018 23:56:30 GMT -5
Certainly no shortage of CD players being manufactured - MusicDirect sells over 60 models of optical disc players from 15 different companies.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 14, 2018 0:21:28 GMT -5
Also a CD buyer, and an occasional HDTracks. CDs just seem like the sweet spot for price and quality.
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Post by brubacca on Aug 14, 2018 6:45:42 GMT -5
I just bought a CD last week.
I buy a CD. Rip it immeiately and then keep about 5-6 in my car.
Can’t wait for Tony Bennett & Diana Krall.
I just don’t get renting music with Tidal. They can raise the price or drop service anytime and you have no recourse. Yes, my catalog is much more limited to what I own, but this limited catalogs fits my lifestyle and lack of time.
I’ll say this makes sense for me and I respect the value that others see in streaming services and high res downloads. I just happen to not agree.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Aug 14, 2018 7:14:41 GMT -5
Hmmm...seems like I was just saying this in another thread....LOL!
Mark
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Post by bluemeanies on Aug 14, 2018 7:49:23 GMT -5
Woa there my friend! audiobill is another valued friend and member of this forum. HE has much insight and years and years and years, (your old audiobill LOL,) of experience building gear and playing music. He is a mentor to many here including myself. He has the same rights as YOU and I when sharing our opinions. Theres more then a couple of times we’ve all voiced an opinion MORE then once. 😋 or twice,,,,,LOL OR,,,,,,,, Lets show each other more respect then this. I enjoy much of what you post and other posts I just ignore. I know you appreciate This honesty as I do. Bill's posts about CDs are not opinions,they are constant smart a## condesending quips directed at people who still like CDs. Its his attempt at belittling. All he has to do is stop making posts that way. If he wants to "discuss" things, great, I'm all for it. But quit back handedly bashing people for still liking CDs. I've said this to him before and he just goes on as if nothing was ever said. Well it has. He likes streaming, I prefer CDs, and you love vinyl. You don't see me picking on him or you or anyone else. I most certainly do respect your honesty. But if you don't see his condescension in regards to people who like CDs, you need a new pair of glasses. Why is is that when people present fact based evidence on any topic for that matter but in this case CD's and there demise SOME people characterize that person with an insult? Five years, six years ten years if the same subject comes up and the same facts exists it is worth being pointed out. Time has nothing to do with it. Perhaps you are right bill's point of view are not opinions but they are factual at least in my area where within 10miles there are 2Best Buys, 3malls, and a couple music stores. While they merchandize CD's the inventory is very low. So I think it is safe to assume that CD sales, inventory should be base also on Geographics. No one knows truly what will happen to the cd but with hi-fi streaming taking 33%-40% of the market one has to wonder. I am not talking Spotify or Apple Music. FACT CD sales have dropped so much in 2017 that CD sales reached the same level as in 1985. I think you took bill's statements too personal. Bill/audiobill is one of the finest people I have ever met in this hobby or for that matter anywhere. Always there to help people and in some cases more help than they deserve given that the service bill gives is 24/7 without compromise. He is as I call him the Maestro! He is a first class jazz guitarist, and a genie in a bottle when it comes to electronics be it tube or SS. Let's get back to respect no matter how our feelings and ideas differ from one another. |
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Post by KeithL on Aug 14, 2018 10:02:08 GMT -5
I think you will find that a lot of the decline in the local availability of CDs (besides being due to declining demand) is due to "anti-geography". (What I mean by that is essentially an erosion of the few remaining reasons to purchase CDs locally.)
While some of the reason why stores have such trouble selling CDs may be due to lack of market in certain geographic areas... A lot of that decline is also simply due to the level of competition they face from online sellers like Amazon.
Brick and mortar sellers of CDs (as well as DVDs and Blu-Rays) fall into two broad categories... and have for years.
You have the "CD shelf" in ordinary retail stores - which generally offers a few of the most popular titles. This may range from a single display in your local supermarket, to a full aisle in Best Buy. However, either way, it is a tiny fraction of the available titles, usually limited to a few most popular recent titles.
Then you have the specialty store.... which included "the record store", "the music store", and even the few remaining video rental places. These stores rely for their business on having a wide variety of titles (so they're where you go when you want a title that isn't on the "top 100 shelf").
Well, to put it bluntly, BOTH of those are being pushed out by the large online sellers like Amazon.
It's harder for your local supermarket to justify keeping a shelf stocked with the latest top 100 titles when sales are in fact down. For one thing, they are faced with a higher risk of not selling what they stock. And, for another, because so many online places offer fast free or low cost shipping, they are losing the benefit of "impulse buyers". These are the sort of people who, while shopping for groceries, may simply notice a movie on the rack that the kids have been asking to see, and throw it in the cart. As these people spend more time online, they are more likely to see that movie at their favorite online store, and throw it in with their order there.
And, obviously, no physical music store can hope to compete with the selection at online stores like Amazon. The battle was lost the day Amazon had MORE titles than the big ten-story-high stores could manage to stock.
Personally, I buy ALL of my CDs at Amazon (except for a very few that are released sooner at exclusive artist's sites, and a few out of print ones I buy from eBay). Sure, I COULD shop around, see if a local store has it, or even check if some place online has it for less (or used). However, while I often find titles that few places other than Amazon has, I virtually never find ones that others have but they don't. (In bygone days, I often ended up looking elsewhere for titles that Amazon didn't stock... now it just plain isn't necessary any more.)
Likewise, while I might find a title cheaper somewhere else, the free two-day shipping I get with my Amazon Prime account makes it unlikely that I can pay less overall. (Free shipping from Amazon makes it very unlikely that someone else will have a low-cost item cheap enough to compete when you include their shipping charges... to the point where it no longer makes sense to even bother to check.) Therefore, I can save time, go straight to Amazon, and USUALLY find what I want, with free shipping, and for the best overall price.
(So, while the overall market is declining... at this point virtually all of it that remains is being fulfilled by Amazon and eBay.)
Bill's posts about CDs are not opinions,they are constant smart a## condesending quips directed at people who still like CDs. Its his attempt at belittling. All he has to do is stop making posts that way. If he wants to "discuss" things, great, I'm all for it. But quit back handedly bashing people for still liking CDs. I've said this to him before and he just goes on as if nothing was ever said. Well it has. He likes streaming, I prefer CDs, and you love vinyl. You don't see me picking on him or you or anyone else. I most certainly do respect your honesty. But if you don't see his condescension in regards to people who like CDs, you need a new pair of glasses. Why is is that when people present fact based evidence on any topic for that matter but in this case CD's and there demise SOME people characterize that person with an insult? Five years, six years ten years if the same subject comes up and the same facts exists it is worth being pointed out. Time has nothing to do with it. Perhaps you are right bill's point of view are not opinions but they are factual at least in my area where within 10miles there are 2Best Buys, 3malls, and a couple music stores. While they merchandize CD's the inventory is very low. So I think it is safe to assume that CD sales, inventory should be base also on Geographics. No one knows truly what will happen to the cd but with hi-fi streaming taking 33%-40% of the market one has to wonder. I am not talking Spotify or Apple Music. FACT CD sales have dropped so much in 2017 that CD sales reached the same level as in 1985. I think you took bill's statements too personal. Bill/audiobill is one of the finest people I have ever met in this hobby or for that matter anywhere. Always there to help people and in some cases more help than they deserve given that the service bill gives is 24/7 without compromise. He is as I call him the Maestro! He is a first class jazz guitarist, and a genie in a bottle when it comes to electronics be it tube or SS. Let's get back to respect no matter how our feelings and ideas differ from one another. |
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Post by KeithL on Aug 14, 2018 10:44:36 GMT -5
I agree with you there.... but the level of concern does depend heavily on your musical tastes and on your sound quality requirements.
I am quite convinced that streaming is here to stay... but not at all convinced that a given streaming provider will be around next year.
As of the last time I checked, both Tidal and Spotify continued to lose money; Spotify went public, which earned them a shot of capital; so far Tidal has not. Therefore, It wouldn't surprise me if either or both of them went out of business, or was bought by someone else, in the very near future.
However, because the market for streaming is so large, I have no doubt whatsoever that SOMEONE will be there next year who I can subscribe to for streaming content.
I do, however, worry quite a bit about what that market actually demands (which drives the certainty of what will be available). For example, if Tidal goes out of business, there will no longer be a provider with a large selection of streaming content at CD or better quality available. The remaining high-quality providers don't have good selections; and the remaining providers with good selections do not provide CD quality service.
If, through some quirk of economics, everyone except Spotify were to go out of business tomorrow, MOST people would be quite satisfied with their excellent selection of lossy compressed content.
However MY NEEDS would not be met.
Likewise, I have SiriusXM in my car... unlike some, I actually find some of their stations quite enjoyable, and I ignore their poor sound quality while I'm driving. However, if I was faced with SiriusXM as my only option for home listening, then my needs would not be met there either.
There's also a very real third possibility... which most people seem to be overlooking... The reason most of the streaming services routinely quote for their continuing losses is that the licensing costs for the music they provide are too high in proportion to what they take in from subscriptions. However, it seems equally obvious that, for various reasons, they are unable to "simply" raise their prices significantly (which would enable them to make a profit).
Tidal currently charges more for their higher tier of service quality - but, to be blunt, it doesn't seem to be enabling them to make a profit.
Likewise, Spotify is supposedly exploring the possibility of offering a higher tier of service, for a higher price - but it doesn't seem to have happened yet.
I personally expect that, in coming years, we're going to see something very similar with streaming audio to what we now have with cable TV....
We will start seeing more tiers of service, and more complex pricing tiers, and higher overall costs.... Instead of paying $20 a month for "every album ever made"...
You'll end up paying $10 a month for the basic lossy compressed service... Then an extra $10 a month for the bump to lossless service... And, for that, you'll get the top 100,000 titles... Then, for another $15 a month, you can add "The Jazz Channel"... And, for another $10, you can add "The Classic Rock Channel"... Then there's "The Indie Channel"... And shall we even discuss "The Beatles Channel" and "The David Bowie Channel" and "The Michael Jackson Channel" and "The Grateful Dead Channel"...?
And then there will be "exclusive original programming"... which each provider will jealously guard... So, if you want to have access to ALL the albums, you'll have to subscribe to more than one streaming service.
The problem there, to me, is that so many people WILL be satisfied with the "lossy top 100k service" for $10 a month. But, in order to maintain access to all the obscure titles I want in my collection, I'll end up having to pay $249 a month for all those "add on niche channels"... And, unless I want to subscribe to two or three different services at the same time, there will always be stuff I'm missing...
(At which point I'm much better off just buying the CDs I actually want .... which leaves us back where we started.)
I'm sorry... but... at the risk of validating the cliche... I pay over $200 a month for cable, I have over 1000 stations, and sometimes I STILL can't find anything to watch. (So I still have to pull out the disc when I want to watch some classic movie that doesn't seem to be available on-demand at the moment.)
I just bought a CD last week. I buy a CD. Rip it immeiately and then keep about 5-6 in my car. Can’t wait for Tony Bennett & Diana Krall. I just don’t get renting music with Tidal. They can raise the price or drop service anytime and you have no recourse. Yes, my catalog is much more limited to what I own, but this limited catalogs fits my lifestyle and lack of time. I’ll say this makes sense for me and I respect the value that others see in streaming services and high res downloads. I just happen to not agree. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Aug 14, 2018 11:08:35 GMT -5
keith - your response seems to make it sound like you didn't look at the article that started this thread. OVERALL...CD SALES ARE DOWN SUBSTANTIALLY. Sure, local stores may be losing out to Amazon, but...even counting what sales Amazon takes from local stores...sales are DOWN. Hugely. There will come a point when they are as quaint as an 8-track. Will high fidelty music still be available even if there are zero CD's and zero LP's and we're in a streaming world (whether it's Tidal or something new like "Mark's Hifi Streaming")? I'm betting on it. Who knows what we'll pay for it, but it will be around. Mark I think you will find that a lot of the decline in the local availability of CDs (besides being due to declining demand) is due to "anti-geography". (What I mean by that is essentially an erosion of the few remaining reasons to purchase CDs locally.)
While some of the reason why stores have such trouble selling CDs may be due to lack of market in certain geographic areas... A lot of that decline is also simply due to the level of competition they face from online sellers like Amazon. Brick and mortar sellers of CDs (as well as DVDs and Blu-Rays) fall into two broad categories... and have for years. You have the "CD shelf" in ordinary retail stores - which generally offers a few of the most popular titles. This may range from a single display in your local supermarket, to a full aisle in Best Buy. However, either way, it is a tiny fraction of the available titles, usually limited to a few most popular recent titles.
Then you have the specialty store.... which included "the record store", "the music store", and even the few remaining video rental places. These stores rely for their business on having a wide variety of titles (so they're where you go when you want a title that isn't on the "top 100 shelf"). Well, to put it bluntly, BOTH of those are being pushed out by the large online sellers like Amazon. It's harder for your local supermarket to justify keeping a shelf stocked with the latest top 100 titles when sales are in fact down. For one thing, they are faced with a higher risk of not selling what they stock. And, for another, because so many online places offer fast free or low cost shipping, they are losing the benefit of "impulse buyers". These are the sort of people who, while shopping for groceries, may simply notice a movie on the rack that the kids have been asking to see, and throw it in the cart. As these people spend more time online, they are more likely to see that movie at their favorite online store, and throw it in with their order there. And, obviously, no physical music store can hope to compete with the selection at online stores like Amazon. The battle was lost the day Amazon had MORE titles than the big ten-story-high stores could manage to stock.
Personally, I buy ALL of my CDs at Amazon (except for a very few that are released sooner at exclusive artist's sites, and a few out of print ones I buy from eBay). Sure, I COULD shop around, see if a local store has it, or even check if some place online has it for less (or used). However, while I often find titles that few places other than Amazon has, I virtually never find ones that others have but they don't. (In bygone days, I often ended up looking elsewhere for titles that Amazon didn't stock... now it just plain isn't necessary any more.)
Likewise, while I might find a title cheaper somewhere else, the free two-day shipping I get with my Amazon Prime account makes it unlikely that I can pay less overall. (Free shipping from Amazon makes it very unlikely that someone else will have a low-cost item cheap enough to compete when you include their shipping charges... to the point where it no longer makes sense to even bother to check.) Therefore, I can save time, go straight to Amazon, and USUALLY find what I want, with free shipping, and for the best overall price.
(So, while the overall market is declining... at this point virtually all of it that remains is being fulfilled by Amazon and eBay.)
Why is is that when people present fact based evidence on any topic for that matter but in this case CD's and there demise SOME people characterize that person with an insult? Five years, six years ten years if the same subject comes up and the same facts exists it is worth being pointed out. Time has nothing to do with it. Perhaps you are right bill's point of view are not opinions but they are factual at least in my area where within 10miles there are 2Best Buys, 3malls, and a couple music stores. While they merchandize CD's the inventory is very low. So I think it is safe to assume that CD sales, inventory should be base also on Geographics. No one knows truly what will happen to the cd but with hi-fi streaming taking 33%-40% of the market one has to wonder. I am not talking Spotify or Apple Music. FACT CD sales have dropped so much in 2017 that CD sales reached the same level as in 1985. I think you took bill's statements too personal. Bill/audiobill is one of the finest people I have ever met in this hobby or for that matter anywhere. Always there to help people and in some cases more help than they deserve given that the service bill gives is 24/7 without compromise. He is as I call him the Maestro! He is a first class jazz guitarist, and a genie in a bottle when it comes to electronics be it tube or SS. Let's get back to respect no matter how our feelings and ideas differ from one another. |
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Post by audiobill on Aug 14, 2018 11:26:40 GMT -5
With all respect, lots and lots of what ifs in your thinking, Keith.
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Post by KeithL on Aug 14, 2018 11:49:19 GMT -5
My fear is that, like the option of flying from New York to Paris in an hour, the option may NOT be around forever. (And, while I won't regret "going to my grave without ever flying in a Concorde", I most certainly will regret not being able to get a good quality copy of my favorite band's next album.)
Several years ago I experienced the first time when an album I wanted was NOT available in high-quality (it was ONLY released on the iTunes store). I was very pleased to find that I'd been overly pessimistic after that experience. However, we seem to be in a world where more and more people are satisfied to make do with "good enough".
And I find that quite scary.... because I simply don't find "good enough" to be good enough.
keith - your response seems to make it sound like you didn't look at the article that started this thread. OVERALL...CD SALES ARE DOWN SUBSTANTIALLY. Sure, local stores may be losing out to Amazon, but...even counting what sales Amazon takes from local stores...sales are DOWN. Hugely. There will come a point when they are as quaint as an 8-track. Will high fidelty music still be available even if there are zero CD's and zero LP's and we're in a streaming world (whether it's Tidal or something new like "Mark's Hifi Streaming")? I'm betting on it. Who knows what we'll pay for it, but it will be around. Mark I think you will find that a lot of the decline in the local availability of CDs (besides being due to declining demand) is due to "anti-geography". (What I mean by that is essentially an erosion of the few remaining reasons to purchase CDs locally.)
While some of the reason why stores have such trouble selling CDs may be due to lack of market in certain geographic areas... A lot of that decline is also simply due to the level of competition they face from online sellers like Amazon. Brick and mortar sellers of CDs (as well as DVDs and Blu-Rays) fall into two broad categories... and have for years. You have the "CD shelf" in ordinary retail stores - which generally offers a few of the most popular titles. This may range from a single display in your local supermarket, to a full aisle in Best Buy. However, either way, it is a tiny fraction of the available titles, usually limited to a few most popular recent titles.
Then you have the specialty store.... which included "the record store", "the music store", and even the few remaining video rental places. These stores rely for their business on having a wide variety of titles (so they're where you go when you want a title that isn't on the "top 100 shelf"). Well, to put it bluntly, BOTH of those are being pushed out by the large online sellers like Amazon. It's harder for your local supermarket to justify keeping a shelf stocked with the latest top 100 titles when sales are in fact down. For one thing, they are faced with a higher risk of not selling what they stock. And, for another, because so many online places offer fast free or low cost shipping, they are losing the benefit of "impulse buyers". These are the sort of people who, while shopping for groceries, may simply notice a movie on the rack that the kids have been asking to see, and throw it in the cart. As these people spend more time online, they are more likely to see that movie at their favorite online store, and throw it in with their order there. And, obviously, no physical music store can hope to compete with the selection at online stores like Amazon. The battle was lost the day Amazon had MORE titles than the big ten-story-high stores could manage to stock.
Personally, I buy ALL of my CDs at Amazon (except for a very few that are released sooner at exclusive artist's sites, and a few out of print ones I buy from eBay). Sure, I COULD shop around, see if a local store has it, or even check if some place online has it for less (or used). However, while I often find titles that few places other than Amazon has, I virtually never find ones that others have but they don't. (In bygone days, I often ended up looking elsewhere for titles that Amazon didn't stock... now it just plain isn't necessary any more.)
Likewise, while I might find a title cheaper somewhere else, the free two-day shipping I get with my Amazon Prime account makes it unlikely that I can pay less overall. (Free shipping from Amazon makes it very unlikely that someone else will have a low-cost item cheap enough to compete when you include their shipping charges... to the point where it no longer makes sense to even bother to check.) Therefore, I can save time, go straight to Amazon, and USUALLY find what I want, with free shipping, and for the best overall price.
(So, while the overall market is declining... at this point virtually all of it that remains is being fulfilled by Amazon and eBay.)
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 14, 2018 11:59:05 GMT -5
Quite so....
However, the actual facts are that Spotify and Tidal are both consistently losing a lot of money. And, unfortunately, according to a few articles I've seen analyzing the situation, there is no specific end of that in sight. Because their licensing costs are tied to the same thing as their income - the number of subscribers they have - there is no hope that "economy of scale" will save them. Every single subscriber currently costs them more to support than the income they derive from that subscriber.
Either the music industry lowers licensing costs, or the streaming companies raise prices, or the end is inevitable.
Therefore, unless they raise prices significantly, or significantly restructure their services, the current situation WILL change - very soon.
With all respect, lots and lots of what ifs in your thinking, Keith. |
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Post by drtrey3 on Aug 14, 2018 12:01:38 GMT -5
I received a lot of CHEAP box sets for Christmas. X studio albums, a boatload of Gerry Mulligan, the Replacements studio cds, Linda Rondstadt, you get the picture. It was a great influx of music and so easy to rip from cds. Now I was listening to a lot of those very files last night, and it did make me a little sad that I could hear the digital nasties instead of the analog nasties, but I am so pleased and happy to have that music. And cds made that possible.
Trey
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