KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,264
Member is Online
|
Post by KeithL on Aug 14, 2018 16:51:42 GMT -5
Note, however, that if Apple goes out of business, or shuts down the iTunes servers, you probably will lose even what you have "purchased". (You will definitely lose access to download a new copy... )
I'm also seeing what seems to me to be a disturbing tendency lately to deliberately blur that distinction....
My cable company offers pay-per-view movies. I can "rent" a pay-per-view movie for 24 hours for a few dollars; or I can "purchase" one for about $20.
If I "purchase" a movie, that means I can watch it as many times as I like, for as long as I like... it never expires. However, even if I "purchase" the movie, I can only use my purchase with my cable account.
In other words, what they have sold me is a lifetime license to view that movie on their cable service.
I do NOT get a file I can download, or a disc I can take home with me, or some sort of license key I can use to watch that movie on a different cable account. I consider describing this as "purchasing the movie" to be deliberately misleading...
Likewise, I see posts by people who seem to have confused the access that they rent to Tidal or Spotify's music collection with "their music collection". I really do suspect that many people are starting to get "a little fuzzy on the distinction".
And, as with many things, this only disturbs me to the degree that if affects me.
For example, when I ask some artist "where I can get his music" and his reply is "you can get it on Spotify". The reality is that I cannot get it on Spotify... I can RENT it on Spotify...
To me, this would be very much as if I had "bought" a book... then been told I could only read it in the bookstore, using their reading lamp, and sitting in their chair.
(One of the main reasons I bought that book in the first place is so I can read it curled up on the couch, or on the beach, or on a bus...)
The other limitation that really bugs me is that I always seem to be limited to using the particular music client provided by the service.
I don't LIKE Tidal's client.... and, unlike music I actually own, if I want to use music from their service, I am forced to use their player. (And, even worse, I am limited to listening to "my music" on the particular devices that happen to run their client software.)
Again, I'll reiterate that I agree with you - every music lover would benefit from a subscription with a good streaming service.... As long as they don't confuse the music they're renting with music they actually own.
What really worries me is that, because of some business decision, I will no longer be able to listen to my favorite album tomorrow... And, when I buy an album (whether I'm technically buying the music, or a license to listen to it), I want to buy it ONCE.... not every time I listen to it.
I dislike the very idea that "my music library" will magically cease to exist if I decide not to pay the subscription that month (or if the guys I rent if from go out of business).
It really is that simple... This is also different. I had a large iTunes library of all my old CDs (about 1000) that I had ripped into iTunes. It also included hundreds of albums I had purchased from iTunes. Then I did the Apple Music trial. At the end of the trial, I did not immediately subscribe. All of the music I had leased went away, but every single item I had purchased was still there. When you subscribe to a streaming service, you're not buying the music. You're leasing access to it. And if you decide to stop leasing it, sure, it goes away, but what you OWNED is still there. If you lease a car, and have an iPod connected, and maybe a nice sunshade, when your lease is up, you still own the iPod and the sunshade, but the car goes away. Or you can then buy it. Just like you can then purchase the music you discovered while leasing it. My internet service provider might go out of business, but the internet will still exist. You can't possibly think you're buying music for $15 a month. If that were the case, I'd just pay for one month and own every piece of music on Apple Music? That'd be a helluva deal. This thought that you don't own music when you're on a subscription service has always been kind of a "no duh" thing. Before Apple Music, I spent a LOT more than $15/month buying music. I'm getting a LOT more than $15/month worth of music with the service. I'm not worried about them shutting down, but if they do, I enjoyed the heck out of it for the time I was a member, and I still have all the music I purchased before leasing ACCESS to ALL MUSIC. I understand the sound quality arguments, but I've never understood the owning/renting music argument. If Spotify goes out of business, Stevie Wonder's music is not going to cease to exist. Only your ACCESS to that music VIA SPOTIFY will cease to exist. Go buy it (or lease access) from another source. If you're a music consumer and a music lover, you're going to save money with a subscription service, and you're going to be drooling over all the content you have ACCESS to. Even if you go buy CDs of your favorites, every true music lover should have some sort of music subscription, if only for the act of discovery. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,264
Member is Online
|
Post by KeithL on Aug 14, 2018 16:58:16 GMT -5
That's the same problem I have. There's one particular CD that I've been looking for on and off for several years. I can LISTEN to it on Tidal, but I can't BUY it anywhere. (I would cheerfully pay them the $20 going rate for a CD - but that is apparently not an option.)
The album was called "Streetlight Shine" by "The Shirts". It is readily available, in several editions, on vinyl. However, it was only issued once on CD, in France, several years ago.
I would cheerfully pay $50 to the person who could deliver a copy to me in good playable condition. (And, no, I do NOT want a CD-R ripped from vinyl.... I already have that. ) I would be very pleased if Tidal were willing to SELL me a copy of the CD rather than RENT it... but they are not.
If you Google around a bit you will find that there are NO copies available. (And it worries me that, as streaming becomes more popular, this will become a more common occurrence.)
The Shirts – Street Light Shine
Label: Harvest – C070 07111 / PM 261
Format: CD, Album
Country: France
Genre: Rock, Pop
Style: New Wave, Pop Rock
One thought is that if Tidal went away, I could go out and buy my faves - at $1 apiece, the going price.
In the meantime.....
Going price for what? Per song? I can give you a list of the last twenty CDs I bought and I'll bet you don't find any for a buck. |
|
|
|
Post by teaman on Aug 14, 2018 17:07:32 GMT -5
Most of the new music I find is from Europe, The Netherlands, Germany, etc. Progressive rock is still going strong over there with new offerings almost daily. I plug the song into YouTube and it brings up other songs and artists I may like. Then I give each a listen and seek them out. Also like Keith said, there are many CDs out of print that sold in small enough numbers that they may never be rereleased. I have searched for some bands on Spotify, Amazon Prime and iTunes music that are not even available to stream let alone own.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cogito on Aug 14, 2018 17:11:22 GMT -5
One thought is that if Tidal went away, I could go out and buy my faves - at $1 apiece, the going price.
In the meantime.....
Going price for what? Per song? I can give you a list of the last twenty CDs I bought and I'll bet you don't find any for a buck. I rarely buy new CDs unless is a new release from one of my faves. Instead, I buy used CDs from a local chain that typically sells them for $1.99-4.99 for singles and $4.99-9.99 for double sets. They are unsealed, so you can check the condition before you buy. It's a hell of a deal and I've found some real gems as their selection is quite impressive. |
|
|
|
Post by thrillcat on Aug 14, 2018 17:20:08 GMT -5
First of all, I’m not overly concerned with Apple going out of business. Second of all, they won’t shut down Apple Music/iTunes because it sells hardware. Thirdly, every item I’ve PURCHASED via iTunes is downloaded to my computer, without copy protection. Apple fought that battle and won a few years back. And everything I’ve ripped is still there as well. So what I’ve purchased won’t need to be downloaded IF they go out of business (that still makes me giggle to type). There’s a triple checkbox in iTunes to “Automatically download purchased music; movies, tv shows.” Note, however, that if Apple goes out of business, or shuts down the iTunes servers, you probably will lose even what you have "purchased". (You will definitely lose access to download a new copy... )
I'm also seeing what seems to me to be a disturbing tendency lately to deliberately blur that distinction....
My cable company offers pay-per-view movies. I can "rent" a pay-per-view movie for 24 hours for a few dollars; or I can "purchase" one for about $20.
If I "purchase" a movie, that means I can watch it as many times as I like, for as long as I like... it never expires. However, even if I "purchase" the movie, I can only use my purchase with my cable account.
In other words, what they have sold me is a lifetime license to view that movie on their cable service.
I do NOT get a file I can download, or a disc I can take home with me, or some sort of license key I can use to watch that movie on a different cable account. I consider describing this as "purchasing the movie" to be deliberately misleading...
Likewise, I see posts by people who seem to have confused the access that they rent to Tidal or Spotify's music collection with "their music collection". I really do suspect that many people are starting to get "a little fuzzy on the distinction".
And, as with many things, this only disturbs me to the degree that if affects me.
For example, when I ask some artist "where I can get his music" and his reply is "you can get it on Spotify". The reality is that I cannot get it on Spotify... I can RENT it on Spotify...
To me, this would be very much as if I had "bought" a book... then been told I could only read it in the bookstore, using their reading lamp, and sitting in their chair.
(One of the main reasons I bought that book in the first place is so I can read it curled up on the couch, or on the beach, or on a bus...)
The other limitation that really bugs me is that I always seem to be limited to using the particular music client provided by the service.
I don't LIKE Tidal's client.... and, unlike music I actually own, if I want to use music from their service, I am forced to use their player. (And, even worse, I am limited to listening to "my music" on the particular devices that happen to run their client software.)
Again, I'll reiterate that I agree with you - every music lover would benefit from a subscription with a good streaming service.... As long as they don't confuse the music they're renting with music they actually own.
|
|
|
|
Post by teaman on Aug 14, 2018 17:28:36 GMT -5
Going price for what? Per song? I can give you a list of the last twenty CDs I bought and I'll bet you don't find any for a buck. I rarely buy new CDs unless is a new release from one of my faves. Instead, I buy used CDs from a local chain that typically sells them for $1.99-4.99 for singles and $4.99-9.99 for double sets. They are unsealed, so you can check the condition before you buy. It's a hell of a deal and I've found some real gems as their selection is quite impressive. Most CDs I am buying are used as well. There are several reputable Ebay and Amazon sellers that offer combined shipping and such to keep costs down however most of the music I seek out is from overseas and is only available here through import sellers. I own about 2000 discs already and could easily pluck out ten per month in addition to what I have. Bad part is my used record stores are A.) so far from me as several have closed in the last fifteen years.....and B.) Buying them used at the store is fruitless when I can shop from home and buy them shipped to me for the same prices. |
|
|
|
Post by Casey Leedom on Aug 14, 2018 17:28:38 GMT -5
... The other limitation that really bugs me is that I always seem to be limited to using the particular music client provided by the service.
I don't LIKE Tidal's client.... and, unlike music I actually own, if I want to use music from their service, I am forced to use their player. (And, even worse, I am limited to listening to "my music" on the particular devices that happen to run their client software.)
... While I'm mostly in your camp with regard to Streaming Music, I will mention that you can access Tidal via the Roon system. Of course I can't actually say anything about the Roon-based UI for Tidal because, while I have converted over to using Roon for my personal music collection, I haven't ever bothered getting the $20/month Tidal integration. But, it is at least one UI option. Casey |
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Aug 14, 2018 17:34:47 GMT -5
That's the same problem I have. There's one particular CD that I've been looking for on and off for several years. I can LISTEN to it on Tidal, but I can't BUY it anywhere. (I would cheerfully pay them the $20 going rate for a CD - but that is apparently not an option.)
The album was called "Streetlight Shine" by "The Shirts". It is readily available, in several editions, on vinyl. However, it was only issued once on CD, in France, several years ago.
I would cheerfully pay $50 to the person who could deliver a copy to me in good playable condition. (And, no, I do NOT want a CD-R ripped from vinyl.... I already have that. ) I would be very pleased if Tidal were willing to SELL me a copy of the CD rather than RENT it... but they are not.
If you Google around a bit you will find that there are NO copies available. (And it worries me that, as streaming becomes more popular, this will become a more common occurrence.) The Shirts – Street Light Shine
Label: Harvest – C070 07111 / PM 261
Format: CD, Album
Country: France
Genre: Rock, Pop
Style: New Wave, Pop Rock
Your post instantly reminded me of this album, something I doubt ever made it to CD, or streaming. One of my Dad's old favorites. Talk about memories. |
|
|
|
Post by Casey Leedom on Aug 14, 2018 17:40:53 GMT -5
There's this Bonzo, though it's not quite the same cover ... Casey |
|
|
|
Post by craigl59 on Aug 14, 2018 17:56:00 GMT -5
That's the same problem I have. There's one particular CD that I've been looking for on and off for several years. I can LISTEN to it on Tidal, but I can't BUY it anywhere. (I would cheerfully pay them the $20 going rate for a CD - but that is apparently not an option.)
The album was called "Streetlight Shine" by "The Shirts". It is readily available, in several editions, on vinyl. However, it was only issued once on CD, in France, several years ago.
I would cheerfully pay $50 to the person who could deliver a copy to me in good playable condition. (And, no, I do NOT want a CD-R ripped from vinyl.... I already have that. ) I would be very pleased if Tidal were willing to SELL me a copy of the CD rather than RENT it... but they are not.
If you Google around a bit you will find that there are NO copies available. (And it worries me that, as streaming becomes more popular, this will become a more common occurrence.) The Shirts – Street Light Shine
Label: Harvest – C070 07111 / PM 261
Format: CD, Album
Country: France
Genre: Rock, Pop
Style: New Wave, Pop Rock
Your post instantly reminded me of this album, something I doubt ever made it to CD, or streaming. One of my Dad's old favorites. Talk about memories. |
|
|
|
Post by craigl59 on Aug 14, 2018 17:57:23 GMT -5
Remember that album well from my youth and would love to see a CD.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Aug 14, 2018 19:00:53 GMT -5
There's this Bonzo, though it's not quite the same cover ... Casey Appears at first glance it might be something like Volume 1 and 2 on the same CD but I'll have to check. Says it came out in 2011. How crazy is that. Something as bizarre as music from 1959 getting released on CD after CDs are loosing sales. One would have thought it would have came out long before that if it was ever going to come out. Thanks for posting the link. |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Aug 14, 2018 19:27:08 GMT -5
...Therefore, I can save time, go straight to Amazon, and USUALLY find what I want, with free shipping, and for the best overall price.... Spot on, Keith - One other niche market that Amazon often misses is foreign discs and obscure labels. I usually have to hunt eBay or the source-label site to find many titles. ...Let's get back to respect no matter how our feelings and ideas differ from one another. Always good advice! |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Aug 14, 2018 19:37:11 GMT -5
Yes, it is a very different model. When I purchase an album I am assured the ability to listen to it whenever I want to. (I guess you might say that I am granted the ability to assure myself of that... although, if I fail to make a backup, or lose the disc, I may sacrifice that ability.) I like variety. But I also have several dozen albums that I listen to frequently. I consider having access to those albums to be essential to my ability to enjoy music. Therefore, while variety is great, I would NOT trade absolute assured access to the albums I care about for it. Please note that I have nothing whatsoever against streaming. I think it's great to have access to all that variety at a reasonable price. I use it, and I certainly hope it will continue to be available.
However, if license negotiations go badly next week, YOU may lose the ability to listen to a few of your favorite albums on Tidal after that. At the same time, I will still have access to all of my favorites, which I own in some physical form, either a physical CD or a well-backed-up file. And, to me, that assurance is worth any cost. The only real problem I have with streaming services is that the model on which they are based relies on NOT allowing me to protect myself against their failure. (Tidal will NOT allow me to download the songs I like and make backup copies to protect myself in case they go out of business.)
Hmmmm - I'd like to purchase the spouse I like best, but lease the occasional one that I find fetching this week... Maybe I DO need a streaming service? |
|
|
|
Post by novisnick on Aug 14, 2018 19:50:02 GMT -5
Yes, it is a very different model. When I purchase an album I am assured the ability to listen to it whenever I want to. (I guess you might say that I am granted the ability to assure myself of that... although, if I fail to make a backup, or lose the disc, I may sacrifice that ability.) I like variety. But I also have several dozen albums that I listen to frequently. I consider having access to those albums to be essential to my ability to enjoy music. Therefore, while variety is great, I would NOT trade absolute assured access to the albums I care about for it. Please note that I have nothing whatsoever against streaming. I think it's great to have access to all that variety at a reasonable price. I use it, and I certainly hope it will continue to be available.
However, if license negotiations go badly next week, YOU may lose the ability to listen to a few of your favorite albums on Tidal after that. At the same time, I will still have access to all of my favorites, which I own in some physical form, either a physical CD or a well-backed-up file. And, to me, that assurance is worth any cost. The only real problem I have with streaming services is that the model on which they are based relies on NOT allowing me to protect myself against their failure. (Tidal will NOT allow me to download the songs I like and make backup copies to protect myself in case they go out of business.)
Hmmmm - I'd like to purchase the spouse I like best, but lease the occasional one that I find fetching this week... Maybe I DO need a streaming service? , you need to take a road trip! Its that simple. You’ll never find a remote control or anything or service that will satisfy your ever whim and want and need. But my rig is colse, I promise! |
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,090
|
Post by klinemj on Aug 14, 2018 20:23:37 GMT -5
While I'm mostly in your camp with regard to Streaming Music, I will mention that you can access Tidal via the Roon system. Of course I can't actually say anything about the Roon-based UI for Tidal because, while I have converted over to using Roon for my personal music collection, I haven't ever bothered getting the $20/month Tidal integration. But, it is at least one UI option. Casey Tidal integration in Roon is EXCELLENT. Mark |
|
|
|
Post by Cogito on Aug 14, 2018 20:40:29 GMT -5
I rarely buy new CDs unless is a new release from one of my faves. Instead, I buy used CDs from a local chain that typically sells them for $1.99-4.99 for singles and $4.99-9.99 for double sets. They are unsealed, so you can check the condition before you buy. It's a hell of a deal and I've found some real gems as their selection is quite impressive. Most CDs I am buying are used as well. There are several reputable Ebay and Amazon sellers that offer combined shipping and such to keep costs down however most of the music I seek out is from overseas and is only available here through import sellers. I own about 2000 discs already and could easily pluck out ten per month in addition to what I have. Bad part is my used record stores are A.) so far from me as several have closed in the last fifteen years.....and B.) Buying them used at the store is fruitless when I can shop from home and buy them shipped to me for the same prices. Fortunately for me, the store I go is seemingly doing well and continues to open up new branches now and then. The fact that I can inspect my purchase beforehand is a huge plus for me. BULL MOOSE |
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Aug 18, 2018 19:30:54 GMT -5
There's this Bonzo, though it's not quite the same cover ... Casey Wow, check this out. My Dad was quite hip. 😁 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasive_PercussionFirst album to use a gate fold cover. One of a few rare albums to use for professional testing due to its rare use of stereo. And it went to #1 in 1960's stereo album charts. Who knew? |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Aug 19, 2018 10:38:19 GMT -5
...Why is is that when people present fact based evidence on any topic for that matter but in this case CD's and there demise SOME people characterize that person with an insult? I can make some guesses: Many can't distinguish between facts and opinions. This alone makes all statements equivalent. If it were a small group of citizens who never learned the difference, it would be bad enough, but it seems that a large minority (soon to be a majority) of our population lacks this ability. Many have been trained in incivility. They believe that the one with the best "burn" wins the argument (now that facts have become irrelevant). So the biggest smart-alec is now the "winner" in any argument. Even for those who do know the difference between a fact and an opinion, ad-hominum arguments are almost always used when someone's losing an argument. In other words, if I can't dispute your facts, then I'll just attack the person presenting those facts instead. And once again, a large portion of society is so used to this that it's become considered "normal." And many are foolish enough to believe that if the presenter lacks any aspect of credibility, then the facts must be suspect as well. Some logic classes would help a LOT of people (probably, from time to time, including me). Boom |
|
|
|
Post by wilburthegoose on Aug 19, 2018 12:35:33 GMT -5
First of all, I’m not overly concerned with Apple going out of business. Second of all, they won’t shut down Apple Music/iTunes because it sells hardware. Thirdly, every item I’ve PURCHASED via iTunes is downloaded to my computer, without copy protection. Apple fought that battle and won a few years back. And everything I’ve ripped is still there as well. So what I’ve purchased won’t need to be downloaded IF they go out of business (that still makes me giggle to type). There’s a triple checkbox in iTunes to “Automatically download purchased music; movies, tv shows.” Not necessarily. Look at Microsoft's Zune system. Yes, I bought into Zune, purchased music, and later discovered that about 30% of that music was lost permanently due to licensing. |
|
