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Post by Bonzo on Aug 19, 2018 18:25:40 GMT -5
I get what you are saying, but comparing the world of video is quite a bit different to audio and CD's in particular because in the video world, new physical tech almost always meant a huge jump in ability or quality. Almost every jump was not only better PQ and SQ, but better convenience too. This is not the case with digital music, downloads, or streaming. Most streaming still isn't even CD quality, but people still try to say it's better. (Off topic: This is why while I agree that old legacy video inputs are dead, analog audio inputs are most certainly not). But, on topic, I'm just not sure why CD's, streaming and downloads can't coexist. Why can't there be all 3 without belittling the other? There are "FACT" strengths and weakness's to all 3 formats. It just seems that CD's are "uncool" right now so they are the red headed step child. It is not that Cd's are "uncool", but it is just a factor of market forces at work. The large majority of buyers can't hear the difference (or don't care about the difference) in a Spotify track and a CD track. Add in that Spotify is significantly more convenient, ie if I have my phone with me I have my music source plus I have virtually any song ever made that I want to hear, then it is no wonder that Cd's are going away. The market for people who will want CD's is fairly small, and I would think almost not worth it for publishers to actually press CD's for various artist. Maybe Amazon will still sell Cd's for a while, but even that won't last too much into the future. I also don't think you will see a renaissance with Cd's like you did with vinyl either IMO. Sad but true. 😞😡 |
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 19, 2018 18:59:00 GMT -5
...Why is is that when people present fact based evidence on any topic for that matter but in this case CD's and there demise SOME people characterize that person with an insult? I can make some guesses: Many can't distinguish between facts and opinions. This alone makes all statements equivalent. If it were a small group of citizens who never learned the difference, it would be bad enough, but it seems that a large minority (soon to be a majority) of our population lacks this ability. Many have been trained in incivility. The believe that the one with the best "burn" wins the argument (now that facts have become irrelevant). So the biggest smart-alec is now the "winner" in any argument. Even for those who do know the difference between a fact and an opinion, ad-hominum arguments are almost always used when someone's losing an argument. In other words, if I can't dispute your facts, then I'll just attack the person presenting those facts instead. And once again, a large portion of society is so used to this that it's become considered "normal." And many are foolish enough to believe that if the presenter lacks any aspect of credibility, then the facts must be suspect as well. Some logic classes would help a LOT of people (probably, from time to time, including me). Boom Since bluemeanies original post was directed to me, which I decided to let rest, but then you answered above with a very eliquent and quite accurate reply, I feel the need to chime in here. Here's a fact: Your awesome reply is a direct hit on most people in that situation, BUT, it absolutely for sure 100% does NOT correlate to me. What you describe is what I call the "d-i-c-k" mentality. I'm NOT one of those. It's just not in my nature. I can most certainly be an A.H., but I am NOT a D. There is a BIG difference. There are plenty of Ds on this very forum, but I'm not one as you very well described. We all know that factually CDs sales are going down. That is not in dispute. That's not my issue here. My issue is when someone continuously makes smart a$$ quips over and over, it no longer is about fact, its about insult. Facts are reasons and numbers and such. Belittling the CD itself over and over is belittling the people who still enjoy it. One might as well say, "Why would anyone want to use CDs anymore? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Streaming is vastly superior in every way in every situation. People who still like CDs are total morons." That's how it translates. I think this discussion has been good and worth the muck because I think maybe both audiobill and I have a better understanding of where we stand. I think he was just trying convey some humor, but I think he might now better understand where I'm coming from too. When he says he wasn't trying to be insulting, I believe him. I also hope he sees now why it could be perceived the way I say. I can hope that he understands. I think we have moved past the issue, shown by "likes" of each other's posts within this thread. I know I have, for now. As I said before, I think streaming, downloads, CDs (and vinyl) all have a proper place and all deserve their own respect within the music world. For those who have posted wanting respect, let's start there. |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Aug 19, 2018 19:05:39 GMT -5
There's this Bonzo, though it's not quite the same cover ... Casey Wow, check this out. My Dad was quite hip. 😁 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasive_PercussionFirst album to use a gate fold cover. One of a few rare albums to use for professional testing due to its rare use of stereo. And it went to #1 in 1960's stereo album charts. Who knew? So I bought the CD I pointed you at on your recommendation. What it is is two albums of theirs, the first being the one you wanted. So go for it! Casey |
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 19, 2018 19:17:54 GMT -5
Wow, check this out. My Dad was quite hip. 😁 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasive_PercussionFirst album to use a gate fold cover. One of a few rare albums to use for professional testing due to its rare use of stereo. And it went to #1 in 1960's stereo album charts. Who knew? So I bought the CD I pointed you at on your recommendation. What it is is two albums of theirs, the first being the one you wanted. So go for it! Casey I put it in my Amazon cart also. As for the music itself, it's more childhood nostolgia stuff for me. It's certainly unique. It can be a bit, um, hm, cheesy maybe, but it's certainly cool from a percussion stand point. I always thought my Dad just had different taste. To find out it was sort of revolutionary is news to me. And I thank you for putting me on track to learn that. Again, kind of sentimental. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 19, 2018 23:05:04 GMT -5
Hi Bonzo - Thanks - my post was definitely NOT directed at you - Just random comments on the passing scene... The hardest thing about online posting (for all of us) is that, unlike verbal communication, you can't tell whether the person intends humor or not. So the best response to online ambiguity is give the benefit of the doubt. Which leaves online deliberate insult and ugliness. My theory, although it's hard to practice, is that when someone is trying to irritate you, it's best not to give them the pleasure of knowing that they've succeeded. And now, for once, a Boom original quote (that hopefully sums up all my posts tonight): "The broader your perspective, the more accurate your perception." Cordially - Boomzilla |
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Post by Jean Genie on Aug 20, 2018 4:57:37 GMT -5
Hi Bonzo - "...The hardest thing about online posting (for all of us) is that, unlike verbal communication, you can't tell whether the person intends humor or not. . . " Cordially - Boomzilla Hence, the emoji! 😎😁😜🙊🙉🙈 |
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Post by bluemeanies on Aug 20, 2018 9:27:00 GMT -5
I can make some guesses: Many can't distinguish between facts and opinions. This alone makes all statements equivalent. If it were a small group of citizens who never learned the difference, it would be bad enough, but it seems that a large minority (soon to be a majority) of our population lacks this ability. Many have been trained in incivility. The believe that the one with the best "burn" wins the argument (now that facts have become irrelevant). So the biggest smart-alec is now the "winner" in any argument. Even for those who do know the difference between a fact and an opinion, ad-hominum arguments are almost always used when someone's losing an argument. In other words, if I can't dispute your facts, then I'll just attack the person presenting those facts instead. And once again, a large portion of society is so used to this that it's become considered "normal." And many are foolish enough to believe that if the presenter lacks any aspect of credibility, then the facts must be suspect as well. Some logic classes would help a LOT of people (probably, from time to time, including me). Boom Since bluemeanies original post was directed to me, which I decided to let rest, but then you answered above with a very eliquent and quite accurate reply, I feel the need to chime in here. Here's a fact: Your awesome reply is a direct hit on most people in that situation, BUT, it absolutely for sure 100% does NOT correlate to me. What you describe is what I call the "d-i-c-k" mentality. I'm NOT one of those. It's just not in my nature. I can most certainly be an A.H., but I am NOT a D. There is a BIG difference. There are plenty of Ds on this very forum, but I'm not one as you very well described. We all know that factually CDs sales are going down. That is not in dispute. That's not my issue here. My issue is when someone continuously makes smart a$$ quips over and over, it no longer is about fact, its about insult. Facts are reasons and numbers and such. Belittling the CD itself over and over is belittling the people who still enjoy it. One might as well say, "Why would anyone want to use CDs anymore? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Streaming is vastly superior in every way in every situation. People who still like CDs are total morons." That's how it translates. I think this discussion has been good and worth the muck because I think maybe both audiobill and I have a better understanding of where we stand. I think he was just trying convey some humor, but I think he might now better understand where I'm coming from too. When he says he wasn't trying to be insulting, I believe him. I also hope he sees now why it could be perceived the way I say. I can hope that he understands. I think we have moved past the issue, shown by "likes" of each other's posts within this thread. I know I have, for now. As I said before, I think streaming, downloads, CDs (and vinyl) all have a proper place and all deserve their own respect within the music world. For those who have posted wanting respect, let's start there. Bonzo...I am glad the air has cleared and I agree with everything you have written in you last post. I was hesitant to response but I just wanted you to know that I myself do not regard anyone on this forum as A_H's or D_ _K. The reason why I do not personally like text messages (forums included yet I still participate) is that you do not know the tone of a persons voice, whether or not someone is joking or being serious. Hurtful or just trying to make a point. From that, arguments ensue and it's is all because of a misspelled word or a phrase misunderstood, taken out of context. I loved CD's..when they first hit the market and I STILL DO. Amazing what technology has brought to us as music enthusiasts. I think the first CD I purchased was Sgt Peppers. However, since my first encounter with the idea of being able to BLUETOOTH my music to my then SS system with my CHORD DAC I slowly was moving away from buying CD's (NEW) at $20.00+ None the less I still found my wanting to physically handle a cd and dropping into my CD PLAYER. Some how it just sounded better. Then streaming entered the market and it slowly became better and better. So much better that I listen to TIDAL IN HI-FI 98% of the time. The bottom line Bonzo is everything you said is true except the D_ _ K. I think there is room out there for every format. One last point...people like YOU, ME, AUDIOBILL and BOOM are slowly becoming dinosaurs in this hobby be it SS or Tubes. In my readings most of the young generation have EARBUDS and think they are listening to quality sound. SAD. All the best Bonzo |
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Post by craigl59 on Aug 20, 2018 12:23:39 GMT -5
OK, I get that streaming is winning out as the means for music distribution. The figures through 2017 make this clear.
Here's what I don't get.
Why do many streamers seem intent on disparaging those of us that prefer/require CDs?
In the classical field, streaming has just not reached prime time.
SO, if the powers behind streaming start sabotaging CD production and/or sales then the motives will be suspicious.
The streaming powers want you to pay each time you listen to a work. At first it will be low-ball cheap. Then, as musicians, producers, labels, and Internet companies start to demand a reasonable rate, YOU STREAMERS will pay. AND, at this time, it will be convenient for the streaming powers NOT to have to compete with CDs.
SO, vinyl is on the uptick and let's see those of us that still buy and listen to CDs also move the needle upwards in 2018.
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Post by thrillcat on Aug 20, 2018 15:07:08 GMT -5
Why do many streamers seem intent on disparaging those of us that prefer/require CDs? In the classical field, streaming has just not reached prime time. I don't really see that, but if I had to guess, I'd say because so many people bash streaming and assume streamers are idiots with no idea what true quality sound is? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2018 16:45:15 GMT -5
Why do many streamers seem intent on disparaging those of us that prefer/require CDs? In the classical field, streaming has just not reached prime time. I don't really see that, but if I had to guess, I'd say because so many people bash streaming and assume streamers are idiots with no idea what true quality sound is? I think Craig159 indicated two relevant concepts: preference and requirements. I prefer owning CDs and don't have infinite bandwidth or time to spend streaming. Right now I'm listening to Handel's Alessandro on a 3-CD Decca set I bought from Amazon for $24 in 2012. I can now stream that on Amazon for $0.99 per track, i.e., about $70 for the whole thing, but I can't imagine why I'd do that and pay that much. Let a hundred flowers bloom. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2018 18:02:41 GMT -5
PS - Re the Handel Alessandro CDs I msgd about an hour ago, the $24 set comes with a 36-page booklet about the opera, cast and staging, plus a 116-page libretto in 4 languages. I don't see either of those on streaming, which means you'd have to order the libretto separately once you'd assembled the 70+ tracks on your server. That seems to be the case for all Amazon's opera streaming, when its even an option: no librettos. One of the Parsifal streaming options doesn't even have the prelude, which would make it worthless to me since that's my favorite part. Luckily, I have that particular CD set already.
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Post by craigl59 on Aug 20, 2018 18:59:54 GMT -5
cecilg:
You are correct in that the essential issue is owning versus renting AS WELL AS the complicated nature of intellectual property.
When records and CDs first came out and prospered you purchased a right to listen to the performance ALONG WITH the media. The media contained that right and, as long as it couldn't be easily copied, then musicians, producers/labels, and audio manufacturers could all make some kind of monies out of the process.
Then, when widespread piracy emanated through illegal Internet transmission of digital files, that linkage between performance license and physical media was broken -- probably forever.
So the companies that produce and disseminate music and video lit upon streaming as a way to control the digital revolution. As long as the stream cannot be copied, then they can control dissemination and try to get adequate compensation.
Interestingly, digital downloads -- meaning the purchase of an owned copy of a digital product -- has been declining for the last several years just as streaming has continued to increase.
Perhaps this is because enjoying media is changing from "repeated listening" to "one-time experience." Assuming that you will only listen or view a product one or two times, then renting/streaming is the way to go. But if you listen to Handel's Alessandro a bunch of times, then ownership is a better choice. I own all of my classical CDs and have been buying them since they first came out in the 80s. So, for me, ownership is the logical choice.
Keep trying streaming services and cannot find one that works at the level of fidelity I have become accustomed to. Naxos streaming is the closest but they offer ownership downloads only through ITunes -- and I require *.wav files for my system. Naxos charges roughly $400 a year for access to quality streaming of the best classical recordings and this expense reflects what I believe to be a more realistic amount to support the musicians and labels involved.
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Post by thrillcat on Aug 20, 2018 19:28:54 GMT -5
I don't really see that, but if I had to guess, I'd say because so many people bash streaming and assume streamers are idiots with no idea what true quality sound is? I think Craig159 indicated two relevant concepts: preference and requirements. He asked a question (Why do many streamers seem intent on disparaging those of us that prefer/require CDs?), then presented his stance prior to any answers to his question. I gave him a legitimate answer. |
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Post by Soup on Aug 20, 2018 19:37:37 GMT -5
To each their own...........
I prefer to make digital copies of the CD's that I buy. That's what feeds my microRendu/Chord 2Qute setup! Ownership & Digital Files! Best of both worlds.......
Never found a streaming service I was willing to pay for............
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Post by craigl59 on Aug 20, 2018 19:53:01 GMT -5
Soup:
I use JRiver and wouldn't think of playing CDs anymore -- the exceptions are SACDs and Blu-rays that cannot be ripped into JRiver. But I buy them new to support the musicians involved and keep them 1) to be legal and 2) to use the notes and disk files.
And I agree with you 100% -- there is no streaming service that provides the quality an audiophile would like to have.
thrillcat:
You copied a small part of my post and pulled it out of context. Please re-read the original post and note that it is about the forces acting on streamers and CD owners -- not primarily about personal attacks by either party. The main point is that, as streaming becomes dominant, ownership will not be in the best interests of those who run the streaming services. Thus we run the risk of them mounting a campaign against ownership.
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Post by jdmusante on Aug 21, 2018 0:36:01 GMT -5
PS - Re the Handel Alessandro CDs I msgd about an hour ago, the $24 set comes with a 36-page booklet about the opera, cast and staging, plus a 116-page libretto in 4 languages. I don't see either of those on streaming, which means you'd have to order the libretto separately once you'd assembled the 70+ tracks on your server. That seems to be the case for all Amazon's opera streaming, when its even an option: no librettos. One of the Parsifal streaming options doesn't even have the prelude, which would make it worthless to me since that's my favorite part. Luckily, I have that particular CD set already. I absolutely love the level of fandom that you speak of this classical music CD set. I own a bunch of music like this. Box sets, remasters, collectors releases. I can tell you reasons why they released it, when they remixed it, what special tracks that are on that particular release, fun booklets that come with these releases. That's the fun of buying and owning something like this. I rip everything to digital but do like the option of dropping a shiny disc into my Oppo if I want to. I enjoy the Tidal Hi-Fi subscription I listen to. Sounds great and is super convenient. Encourages me to listen to new things. But I still have a huge CD and digital music collection. There is room for both. We can like both and it can be OK. |
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Post by thrillcat on Aug 21, 2018 8:36:41 GMT -5
thrillcat: You copied a small part of my post and pulled it out of context. Please re-read the original post and note that it is about the forces acting on streamers and CD owners -- not primarily about personal attacks by either party. The main point is that, as streaming becomes dominant, ownership will not be in the best interests of those who run the streaming services. Thus we run the risk of them mounting a campaign against ownership. You asked a question, then gave your context. I only quoted the question you asked (to save space for people scrolling) and gave my context (except I don't ridicule or bash CD users, because I don't care what anyone else uses). I totally understand your point of view. I agree with your point of view. But as someone who is quite content with streaming services (in conjunction with my vinyl collection), I can tell you that I also often feel disparaged by CD users. So perhaps the flip side of that question is "Why do so many CD users seem intent on disparaging those of us who prefer streaming?" Can't we all just get along? |
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Post by audiobill on Aug 21, 2018 9:22:11 GMT -5
One recurring point being made is that streaming is somehow lower quality than cds....
Tidal offers cd resolution as well as MQA, and Qobuz, soon to be in the US is at CD resolution....
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 21, 2018 9:27:30 GMT -5
I'm going to pop in here with a bit of an editorial..... Why do people who like streaming seem to have a problem with people who like CDs? Why do people who like CDs have a problem with people who like streaming (and with streaming in general)?
The general answer to both questions, although more relevant to the second question at the moment, is: When the market moves on someone always gets left behind.
Now, here's MY PERSONAL OPINION on the subject..... Contrary to what you may think from my other posts, I DO NOT especially like CDs, and I almost never play them.
I have all of the music I regularly listen to on a hard drive - and I play it through a computer. When my favorite band comes out with a new album, I buy the CD, RIP it to my hard drive, and stuff the plastic disc in a closet somewhere in a box. I don't read the jacket notes, and I probably don't even remember what the cover art looks like; other people love that stuff - but not me.
However..... 1) I want full quality, lossless, at-least-CD-quality music; I don't like compressed music; I hear a difference.
2) I don't like the idea of RENTING anything I care about.
- I don't like the idea that I have to ASK someone else to play a song for me. - I don't like the idea that I can't play it if my Internet connection is down, or if they decide to take it offline, or if someone's lawyer decides they are no longer entitled to play it. - And I don't like the idea that I can't play it using whatever player program I like instead of someone's stupid streaming client (no matter how great it is)
- And I don't like the idea that, if I decide to change my subscription, or retire to Bora Bora, I will no longer have access to "my music collection". 3) I want access to the full selection.
- When they come out with a version for Japan, and one for the USA, with different bonus tracks, I usually buy both. - I will be extremely unhappy if my streaming service were to tell me that I can't listen to the Japanese bonus track because I'm in the USA. - Or if they just decide not to offer the version of Dark Side of the Moon that I want to listen to.
(I like the 1972 version that came out on gold CD, although the 24/96k copy from the Immersion Set is better.)
So, do I use streaming? Yes. But, do I also hate it, and believe that it's hurting me? Yes.
That feeling started the first time I tried to buy a new album by a performer I liked and was told that I could ONLY purchase it on iTunes. In other words, here was this new album I wanted to have, BUT I COULD NOT BUY A FULL QUALITY COPY OF IT. They didn't want to charge more for the CD than the download; and there was no expensive high-res download; the ONLY version available was one degraded by lossy compression. That's it; we have a new album, but you can't have a real copy of it; sorry.
I felt like I'd gone to an art museum, only to find out that all the original paintings had been locked away, and all we could see were low-quality ink-jet copies.
I've seen it happen with movies too. Some classic movie I liked came out on DVD... and I put it on my "to buy" list. Then, when I went to buy it six months later, it was gone. (They only printed a few thousand copies; now it's out of print.)
Now, I fear that, when a new album I want comes out, it may ONLY be available on Tidal, or Spotify... And, if I don't happen to subscribe to that particular service, I guess I'm just out of luck. That hasn't happened yet, but the threat is looming on the horizon.
And, if they decide to take it offline, for whatever reason, it's gone and I'm just screwed.
When I moved from New York to Tennessee several years ago, I had to switch cable companies (my old NY cable company isn't available in Tennessee). I'm sure glad I had my entire "movie collection" on plastic - and hadn't "purchased" it from my cable service - otherwise I would have lost it all. And wouldn't THAT have sucked?
And, yes, the more popular streaming becomes, the more likely that is to happen with our music. Luckily, at least so far, as long as there's a buck to be made selling download copies, we'll be able to own our music... but that could change... especially if we start seeing music licensed exclusively to streaming services. We already have lots of shows that you can only see on NetFlix....
Do you really want to find out that you can only listen to your favorite band on Spotify... or Amazon music...?
So, like I said, I have nothing whatsoever against streaming as an ADDITIONAL service, as long as I can still own physical copies of my music. But that may eventually go away if the demand dwindles enough. And, if that happens, we all know it will be because streaming has become so popular that nobody wants to bother to sell us a copy any more... or they can't work out the licensing.
And, no, I would not trade owning copies of the music I really care about for any amount of cheap or even free rental access to any amount of music I can't own.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 21, 2018 9:32:15 GMT -5
I personally believe that is somewhat overstated....
However, even the best Internet connection is subject to occasional dropouts and outages... (And, to be slightly paranoid, I KNOW that my music player can deliver a bit-perfect data stream... and I know the provenance of the file that's playing on it.)
And, with most streaming services, you are stuck with their streaming client, or with choosing between the limited number of player programs that support it....
I've stayed at some very nice hotels... But, in my home, I can change the drapes if I don't like the color... (The hotel frowns on that sort of thing.)
And that's why so many people own a home rather than rent.
One recurring point being made is that streaming is somehow lower quality than cds.... Tidal offers cd resolution as well as MQA, and Qobuz, soon to be in the US is at CD resolution.... |
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