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Post by Loop 7 on Aug 21, 2018 21:41:08 GMT -5
I imagine someone posed this question already but I wasn't able to find it.
I wonder if listening behavior might dictate why some of use choose streaming and others choose physical media or (ripped/owned) digital libraries?
For those streaming, are you constantly quenching a thirst for new music/artists; a behavior well suited and maybe more economical than owning media?
For those with a compact disc or owned digital library leaning, are you also eager to hear new releases or possibly more interested in your current collections?
Just throwing this out there.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Aug 21, 2018 22:20:31 GMT -5
I imagine someone posed this question already but I wasn't able to find it. I wonder if listening behavior might dictate why some of use choose streaming and others choose physical media or (ripped/owned) digital libraries? For those streaming, are you constantly quenching a thirst for new music/artists; a behavior well suited and maybe more economical than owning media? For those with a compact disc or owned digital library leaning, are you also eager to hear new releases or possibly more interested in your current collections? Just throwing this out there. I didn't start streaming due to trying new things. I started to make it easier to have my ripped collection play all over the house and even outside (via Sonos). In the past, I was always looking for "where'd that CD go?" Was it in the car, the upstairs listening area, the kitchen system, or in my main system? Once ripped, with Sonos it played everywhere w/o me needing the disk. Then, once Tidal had CD quality and I had high speed internet, I took the next step. I still buy some CD's that I just "Want" the hard copy of or for ones not available on Tidal. But, more than not - I listen on Tidal even if I have the CD because Tidal mostly has the most recent update to the CD (an MQA version or more recent re-master...each of which sound better than what I own). And, the price is fair vs. me always buying new CD's. Add to that - if I buy from Amazon and the CD comes in a plastic jewel case, most arrive with the jewel case cracked because Amazon's packaging doesn't protect CD cases from damage. (Exhibit A...the new Coltrane that I "just wanted to hold" I nearly sent it back.) Mark |
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Post by thrillcat on Aug 21, 2018 22:32:34 GMT -5
I imagine someone posed this question already but I wasn't able to find it. I wonder if listening behavior might dictate why some of use choose streaming and others choose physical media or (ripped/owned) digital libraries? For those streaming, are you constantly quenching a thirst for new music/artists; a behavior well suited and maybe more economical than owning media? For those with a compact disc or owned digital library leaning, are you also eager to hear new releases or possibly more interested in your current collections? Just throwing this out there. 95% of my listening is in the car. Going with Apple Music was just a convenience of not having to use CDs or make sure whatever music I might want to listen to was downloaded to an iPod or iPhone. The other 5% is vinyl. Discovering new music was something I had stopped actively doing, having wasted too much money on albums with 1 or 2 good songs. Since starting my Apple Music subscription I’ve been devouring as much new music as I can. And I’ve bought vinyl by artists I may have never heard of without Apple Music. Discovery was a pleasant surprise. The Apple Music algorithms have done an amazing job of recommending new music. |
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Post by audiobill on Aug 22, 2018 5:35:50 GMT -5
I've been asked to explain myself -
I found that with CDs, I was listening to the same discs over and over - maybe 20-30 out of 1.200 discs, even when carefully ripped to my hard drive by my patient spouse where they live today.
But once I tried CD quality streaming, like Mark, my choices just exploded with many new artists in the fold at no compromise of quality.. And at a bargain; I would gladly pay 2-3x as much per month and I think others would too.
And I love the convenience of having actual pros maintaining the backup, indexing, etc aspects of data management.
As a musician, I'm always on the lookout for new music to stretch my skills. No interest in the 19th remastering of Back in Black or Stairway to Heaven or American Beauty, but I understand that some may love that music forever just as I love Jazz Standards performed by the Masters.
No, IMO Apple's not going out of business (they are the highest cap company in history), streaming is not going away (although the business model may change).
I still have all my cds, somewhere, but haven't seen them in ten years. I sold my $7K BAT VKD5 SE balanced tubed cd player while I could still recover a high value. Now I sometimes use my DVD player on the very rare occasion I spin a CD.
Equally, I keep my vinyl albums from 1967-1972 for a touch of nostalgia and that Thorens TT sure does look "vintage" on my equipment rack to the rare millennial that comes by.
As mentioned, streaming doesn't do so well with Classical, where contiguous tracks are important to long pieces. Nor does it provide a listener with something to hold in their hands while listening. And for those who have ripped all their cds to a hard drive, do you really dig out that cd jewel box so you can reread the liner notes? I sure didn't.
I have no problem at all with cd lovers, why on earth would I, but for me, in my system in my home there's a better way. And if Apple and all the streaming services go away, I can just revert to buying and storing more cds. Certainly no shortage on the market. And I will still have realized incomparable value from the streaming era if and when it dies. But somehow I don't think that's where we're headed.
Bill
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 22, 2018 7:04:05 GMT -5
Apple already has their streaming service (Apple Music), which if I am not mistaken has the 2nd largest paid user base in the US. I'll double check that. It's $9.99 a month. Just did some internet research and Apple Music is virtually tied with Spotify in US paid accounts (appx 19 million each), but Spotify has a much larger global user base (71 Million versus 38 Million). These numbers come from some quick google work so I'm sure there could be some error in there. I agree with you completely, davidl81 - But I'm not commenting on the current numbers. I'm looking at future trends. No matter how many users a company has, they can't survive without profit. That statement applies even to Apple. But should corporate will determine that Apple wants to "own the streaming market," than nobody (not even Google) can stop them. Does Apple have that intent? Time will tell... |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Aug 22, 2018 7:20:39 GMT -5
As mentioned, streaming doesn't do so well with Classical, where contiguous tracks are important to long pieces. No sure what you mean by this...can you elaborate? Do you mean gapless play between tracks/continuous play across tracks? Mark |
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Post by audiobill on Aug 22, 2018 7:22:20 GMT -5
yes
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 22, 2018 8:29:03 GMT -5
As mentioned, streaming doesn't do so well with Classical, where contiguous tracks are important to long pieces. No sure what you mean by this...can you elaborate? Do you mean gapless play between tracks/continuous play across tracks? Mark Yes. In the rock world I bump into this with bands like YES, and/or especially live stuff from jam bands like the Grateful Dead. |
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 22, 2018 8:39:07 GMT -5
But, I don't think that there is any significant chunk of people who dislike or have a problem with other people based on their preferred listening vehicle. I think we will just have to agree to disagree. But I'm not sure the word is problem or dislike. The best word I have for it is arrogance. I bring up Iphone users vs Android users again, because its similar. For what ever the reason, one I just don't get, the vast majority of Iphone users I have encountered in my personal world have this arrogance about them with their phone. And they most definitely look down on people who use something else. They even gather in groups to discuss the wonders of their phone and make fun of Android users. Its really nuts if you ask me, but its most certainly real. On the contrary, I rarely if ever experience the other way around. Only from super geek IT guys maybe. |
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 22, 2018 8:54:51 GMT -5
I've been asked to explain myself -
I found that with CDs, I was listening to the same discs over and over - maybe 20-30 out of 1.200 discs, even when carefully ripped to my hard drive by my patient spouse where they live today.
But once I tried CD quality streaming, like Mark, my choices just exploded with many new artists in the fold at no compromise of quality.. And at a bargain; I would gladly pay 2-3x as much per month and I think others would too.
And I love the convenience of having actual pros maintaining the backup, indexing, etc aspects of data management.
As a musician, I'm always on the lookout for new music to stretch my skills. No interest in the 19th remastering of Back in Black or Stairway to Heaven or American Beauty, but I understand that some may love that music forever just as I love Jazz Standards performed by the Masters.
No, IMO Apple's not going out of business (they are the highest cap company in history), streaming is not going away (although the business model may change).
I still have all my cds, somewhere, but haven't seen them in ten years. I sold my $7K BAT VKD5 SE balanced tubed cd player while I could still recover a high value. Now I sometimes use my DVD player on the very rare occasion I spin a CD.
Equally, I keep my vinyl albums from 1967-1972 for a touch of nostalgia and that Thorens TT sure does look "vintage" on my equipment rack to the rare millennial that comes by.
As mentioned, streaming doesn't do so well with Classical, where contiguous tracks are important to long pieces. Nor does it provide a listener with something to hold in their hands while listening. And for those who have ripped all their cds to a hard drive, do you really dig out that cd jewel box so you can reread the liner notes? I sure didn't.
I have no problem at all with cd lovers, why on earth would I, but for me, in my system in my home there's a better way. And if Apple and all the streaming services go away, I can just revert to buying and storing more cds. Certainly no shortage on the market. And I will still have realized incomparable value from the streaming era if and when it dies. But somehow I don't think that's where we're headed.
Bill
Thank you. That helps. |
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Post by audiobill on Aug 22, 2018 9:52:17 GMT -5
Hey Bonzo,
Many people think the French are "arrogant", I find many classy.
Perception vs intent is a huge factor I'm sure you'll agree!
Bill
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 22, 2018 10:28:29 GMT -5
Hey Bonzo, Many people think the French are "arrogant", I find many classy. Perception vs intent is a huge factor I'm sure you'll agree! Bill That is very true. Many Brits consider Americans arrogant. Of course arrogance can be had everywhere, in every culture. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 22, 2018 11:56:51 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Spotify still isn't offering CD quality streaming. Likewise, as far as I know, Apple Music still isn't offering CD quality either. To me that excludes both as viable offerings -at least for the time being. (I don't really care how good the selection is if the sound quality is sub-standard.... Spotify has everything... but it just doesn't sound good.)
It's also noteworthy that neither of the two major players considers CD quality to be a "market necessity". And, to be blunt, both have resisted offering CD quality music for quite some time. Even though Apple has always recommended (at least for a long time) that music be submitted to iTunes at 24/96k, they seem to feel that their iTunes customers are satisfied with lossy sound quality. (Note that their upgrade from 128k AAC to 256k AAC was largely motivated by the demand for DRM-free music; nobody really knows how much the improvement in sound quality factored into it; clearly not enough to offer lossless.)
Likewise, Spotify offers two tiers of lossy streaming, and is supposed to be offering trials of CD-quality streaming in some areas, but is still not offering it at all widely. (I was optimistic that, once they started offering trials, Spotify Lossless streaming would quickly become widely available... but it has not.)
To me, this is all very nervous-making. I fear that, if Tidal does go out of business, the others will conclude that there isn't enough market to justify offering CD quality or high-res streaming music, and may decide not to bother. And, if that happens, as far as I'm concerned, streaming music will be a failure - and it will be back to buying downloads and CDs if you want full quality. More to the point, I worry that music producers will take it as proof that "not enough people care", and simply stop making high quality versions of music available altogether.
(We've already seen this happen with video. Some shows are available as streams, but cannot be bought on disc - even though 4k streaming offers lower overall quality than 4k UHD discs.)
Apple already has their streaming service (Apple Music), which if I am not mistaken has the 2nd largest paid user base in the US. I'll double check that. It's $9.99 a month. Just did some internet research and Apple Music is virtually tied with Spotify in US paid accounts (appx 19 million each), but Spotify has a much larger global user base (71 Million versus 38 Million). These numbers come from some quick google work so I'm sure there could be some error in there. I agree with you completely, davidl81 - But I'm not commenting on the current numbers. I'm looking at future trends. No matter how many users a company has, they can't survive without profit. That statement applies even to Apple. But should corporate will determine that Apple wants to "own the streaming market," than nobody (not even Google) can stop them. Does Apple have that intent? Time will tell... |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Aug 22, 2018 12:19:13 GMT -5
No sure what you mean by this...can you elaborate? Do you mean gapless play between tracks/continuous play across tracks? Mark Yes. In the rock world I bump into this with bands like YES, and/or especially live stuff from jam bands like the Grateful Dead. I can play bands like that w/o any issue - no gaps between songs/sections. Not sure what the problem would be w/classical as it's the same thing w/different music. audiobill - am I missing something? Mark |
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Post by audiobill on Aug 22, 2018 12:38:35 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Spotify still isn't offering CD quality streaming. Likewise, as far as I know, Apple Music still isn't offering CD quality either. To me that excludes both as viable offerings -at least for the time being. (I don't really care how good the selection is if the sound quality is sub-standard.... Spotify has everything... but it just doesn't sound good.)
It's also noteworthy that neither of the two major players considers CD quality to be a "market necessity". And, to be blunt, both have resisted offering CD quality music for quite some time. Even though Apple has always recommended (at least for a long time) that music be submitted to iTunes at 24/96k, they seem to feel that their iTunes customers are satisfied with lossy sound quality. (Note that their upgrade from 128k AAC to 256k AAC was largely motivated by the demand for DRM-free music; nobody really knows how much the improvement in sound quality factored into it; clearly not enough to offer lossless.)
Likewise, Spotify offers two tiers of lossy streaming, and is supposed to be offering trials of CD-quality streaming in some areas, but is still not offering it at all widely. (I was optimistic that, once they started offering trials, Spotify Lossless streaming would quickly become widely available... but it has not.)
To me, this is all very nervous-making. I fear that, if Tidal does go out of business, the others will conclude that there isn't enough market to justify offering CD quality or high-res streaming music, and may decide not to bother. And, if that happens, as far as I'm concerned, streaming music will be a failure - and it will be back to buying downloads and CDs if you want full quality. More to the point, I worry that music producers will take it as proof that "not enough people care", and simply stop making high quality versions of music available altogether.
(We've already seen this happen with video. Some shows are available as streams, but cannot be bought on disc - even though 4k streaming offers lower overall quality than 4k UHD discs.)
I agree with you completely, davidl81 - But I'm not commenting on the current numbers. I'm looking at future trends. No matter how many users a company has, they can't survive without profit. That statement applies even to Apple. But should corporate will determine that Apple wants to "own the streaming market," than nobody (not even Google) can stop them. Does Apple have that intent? Time will tell... Try to relax, Keith, the end of the world as we know it may not be imminent.... |
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Post by craigl59 on Aug 22, 2018 12:42:50 GMT -5
There are a lot of excellent listening habits described with streaming above and I agree with klinemj's approach in particular.
HOWEVER, my perspective is to look at the total streaming system and ask what effect it is having on various music fields.
SO, I would ask you all to consider whether the general state of the music you prefer is better or worse than, say, five years ago.
I listen largely to classical music and it has become significantly LESS recorded during this span -- and the quality of both recordings and repertoire is, also, poorer. While this may just be cultural preference, I am acquainted with a number of orchestral people and they indicate they will no longer be producing recordings because they cannot pay for the production costs.
Secondly, I enjoy a bunch of active popular musicians such as Adele, Krauss, Spoon, Beck, Infamous Stringdusters, Radio, and on and on. During, especially, the last year my favorites have produced less and less interesting efforts and some of them, such as Natalie Merchant, have specifically stated that the lack of revenue is keeping her from more recordings.
So money makes the world AND artists go around and there is no indication I can see that streaming is making musicians and audio manufacturers more successful -- rather quite the opposite.
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Post by rbk123 on Aug 22, 2018 12:45:47 GMT -5
Try to relax, Keith, the end of the world as we know it may not be imminent.... Your posts to Keith are ironically similar as Bonzo's to you. It's quite humorous. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Aug 22, 2018 14:05:05 GMT -5
But, I don't think that there is any significant chunk of people who dislike or have a problem with other people based on their preferred listening vehicle. I think we will just have to agree to disagree. But I'm not sure the word is problem or dislike. The best word I have for it is arrogance. I bring up Iphone users vs Android users again, because its similar. For what ever the reason, one I just don't get, the vast majority of Iphone users I have encountered in my personal world have this arrogance about them with their phone. And they most definitely look down on people who use something else. They even gather in groups to discuss the wonders of their phone and make fun of Android users. Its really nuts if you ask me, but its most certainly real. On the contrary, I rarely if ever experience the other way around. Only from super geek IT guys maybe. I get the Apple thing, but on CD vs. streaming...you really think that the majority of people on one side feel/act arrogant toward the other side? I know "some" do, but it doesn't seem to be universal or even nearly so. On the Apple thing, I had a colleague who really loved Apple products and he was sitting around raving how his new iPhone had some new feature. I asked him to show me, and I just said - "oh, my droid has had that for 2 years". And, then he said, yes, but the Apple now added..."y". Again, I said...yeah...got that too, have had it for a while. Then I asked "Does yours do 'this'...and 'this'..." Each time it was "no". He suddenly realize that his fervor for Apple products had made him ignorant to the fact that other options might be better. That was the last time he ever flaunted something new about an Apple product to me before checking to see if Android had it already. Mark |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 22, 2018 14:38:43 GMT -5
I think it's fairer to discuss what does and does not constitute actual progress - and that is going to be different for each of us.
For example, I've had a cell phone since they became belt-portable (I didn't have one of the giant bricks that mount in your car). My original Motorola StarTac was one of the first flip type cell phones.... it had a monochrome text screen and some buttons. It was NOT a smart phone; it did not have icons; and it did not run apps. HOWEVER, it did have an accessory "rubber duckie" pull-out antenna.... And it also almost never dropped a call.
We now have a wide variety of Apple and Android phones, and the latest iPhone has everything imaginable inside it, from a camera, to a compass and a GPS. These new phones obviously do a lot more cool stuff.... but every last one of them drops calls A LOT more often than my old StarTac.
In other words, the new phones do a lot more stuff, but they actually do some of the basic stuff LESS WELL than the old phones did. (Some of this may be due to the massively higher level of traffic... but I'm talking about the overall service and what I can get out of it.) So, my new phone does ten times as much stuff, a lot of it handy, but, if I just want to have a nice conversation, it's more likely to drop my call. And, to say it bluntly, modern customers seem far more tolerant of devices that do a lot more, but do it less reliably.
(If I had a pacemaker, I would feel a lot safer if it was connected to my old StarTac in 1985 than I would if it was connected to an iPhone 10 today.)
I'm not a big listener of classical music (like... not at all).
However, my experience with Tidal is rather similar to what classical music lovers have noticed.
I can go on Tidal and punch up Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon...... And I'm sure I can get "the CD version" and "the MQA version"....... HOWEVER, in my CD collection, I have the 1972 "original" CD version, and the 1972 Japanese edition on the gold CD (which is different), and the MFSL UDCD version (which is very different), and the 2003 EMI remaster. And, yes, they sound distinctly different, so I might actually want to listen to one or the other - which is why I own copies of ALL the CDs.
And I'm not at all sure that Tidal will have all of those different versions... or, if I simply punch in the name, which version I'll get. Likewise, my favorite band is European, and they have an unfortunate habit of offering several different versions of every new album (each with different bonus tracks - supposedly targeted to their fans in different countries). Therefore, being able to ask for a specific album isn't going to fulfill my needs.... I need to be able to ask for a specific version - and to know which version I'm listening to.
(It's annoying to have to buy two extra import versions of the album to get all the bonus tracks... but it would be even more annoying to NOT have access to the, or to be told that, in my country, all I can have is the US version.)
I'm told that classical fans have a worse version of this issue - because there are literally thousands of separate performances of certain classical pieces.
Streaming seems to more geared to people who want to hear the third song on Adele's latest album..... but really aren't worried about which release they end up with.
So, no, the sky isn't falling yet....
But you CAN'T fly from New York to Paris on the Concorde any more...
I don't particularly care about the Concorde, but I don't think I want to live to see the day where you can't buy a lossless version of your favorite album...
Unfortunately, Spotify still isn't offering CD quality streaming. Likewise, as far as I know, Apple Music still isn't offering CD quality either. To me that excludes both as viable offerings -at least for the time being. (I don't really care how good the selection is if the sound quality is sub-standard.... Spotify has everything... but it just doesn't sound good.)
It's also noteworthy that neither of the two major players considers CD quality to be a "market necessity". And, to be blunt, both have resisted offering CD quality music for quite some time. Even though Apple has always recommended (at least for a long time) that music be submitted to iTunes at 24/96k, they seem to feel that their iTunes customers are satisfied with lossy sound quality. (Note that their upgrade from 128k AAC to 256k AAC was largely motivated by the demand for DRM-free music; nobody really knows how much the improvement in sound quality factored into it; clearly not enough to offer lossless.)
Likewise, Spotify offers two tiers of lossy streaming, and is supposed to be offering trials of CD-quality streaming in some areas, but is still not offering it at all widely. (I was optimistic that, once they started offering trials, Spotify Lossless streaming would quickly become widely available... but it has not.)
To me, this is all very nervous-making. I fear that, if Tidal does go out of business, the others will conclude that there isn't enough market to justify offering CD quality or high-res streaming music, and may decide not to bother. And, if that happens, as far as I'm concerned, streaming music will be a failure - and it will be back to buying downloads and CDs if you want full quality. More to the point, I worry that music producers will take it as proof that "not enough people care", and simply stop making high quality versions of music available altogether.
(We've already seen this happen with video. Some shows are available as streams, but cannot be bought on disc - even though 4k streaming offers lower overall quality than 4k UHD discs.)
Try to relax, Keith, the end of the world as we know it may not be imminent.... |
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Post by craigl59 on Aug 22, 2018 15:59:04 GMT -5
Keith:
You have regularly stressed that you hope streaming services do not offer exclusive songs that are not otherwise available in CD or vinyl formats. Think this is the crux of the matter because if streaming becomes required then the delicate balance between ownership and renting will be destroyed.
Purchase lots of CDs from Amazon and about every 5th is part of their Amazon Music system and, so, the MP3 version is automatically placed in my Amazon account. Can listen to this MP3 version until the CD arrives. This is what I have learned from this streaming (and Amazon Music has improved its files to a more acceptable MP3 rate).
1. For whatever reason, the tracks on a multitrack piece do not typically get played in the proper order. This happens regularly.
2. Despite my state-of-the-art computer and network, there are pops and clicks on every track -- often at disturbing times.
3. The MP3 quality is lower when streaming than if you download the MP3 and play it locally; this should not be the case -- they should be the same
4. Will live with the MP3 version for a week or more and, so, become accustomed to the sound. Then when the CD comes, is ripped into JRiver, and upsampled with SoX for DAC playback; I can accurately compare the two. For orchestral music it is like a different recording. The *.wav file is fuller, more accurate timbrally, and the room acoustics (in the original recording) are much more evident. Not a small difference, a large one -- that is more evident the better the playback system.
SO, it is constantly said that streaming does not work for classical music and the above problems just refer to playback issues. None of the services have the recordings I listen to and have accumulated over 30 years. There are specific problems with classical copyrights and differences between Euro and other countries approach. SO, these recordings will not be available in the future.
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