b4icu
Minor Hero
Posts: 60
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Post by b4icu on Sept 14, 2018 0:17:41 GMT -5
Hi That's nice: its saying: I'm getting results. So we are on the same page. All you need to do if find out how I'm getting there. For your habit of reading, It's way better than not reading at all. But you could do even better if you would read. For your system: the Mag. 1.7 sound fantastic. but they need a powerfull amp. I'm not sure tube delivers that. The two downsides of the 1.7 are low sensitivity (86dB/w/m SPL) and a hrd4 ohms impedance. The next is some shortage on the low band. A sub would fix that. I typically listen music at around 70 to 74db sitting at roughly 8 feet away. I do have two subwoofers to take care or the low end. Hi A good friend of mine had the 1.6 for years. I recommanded them. That time there was no 1.7. He had an ADCOM 250W amp and he enjoyed it a lot. later he added a REL sub. About 3 years ago, he wanted a change... So we went for new speakers. We did not liked the "half baked" 3.7, also gave way to a top Sous Faber and ended up with a B&W802D. Then his ADCOME parished, to be replaced with a PASS LABS 250W amp. a pre (the new 12) and a Luxman CD player. I prepared him all cables: a set of XLRs and a 4 AWG 3m long for the speakers. I like his new sound, even though, he could get way more if he could spare a room for that. |
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 14, 2018 9:41:21 GMT -5
“most have a cable that is holding their system from performing the best, but are not even awear off that.” most??? Unaware?? How do you know this? Bill |
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b4icu
Minor Hero
Posts: 60
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Post by b4icu on Sept 14, 2018 11:30:53 GMT -5
“most have a cable that is holding their system from performing the best, but are not even awear off that.” most??? Unaware?? How do you know this? Let's be honest. No one really have an idea, what speaker cable they need. So what they've got is, most likely a bid. No calculation, no understanding and no clue. Look at this unfolding chat on the subject. Most dealers or makers won't tell you what their cable is fit for. No technical data on any cable. No professional approach. They would pick a bunch of urban myths: Skin effect, burn in, boxes along the cable, silver over cooper and tin, Bi-wire and thermal treatment. The first post talks about hi-end speaker cables. What makes a cooper conductor into hi-end? Is it a good massage with snake oil? Tell me how did you pick yours? What was the guide? Someone got down calculating it? Look at this DIY project posted here. The argument to use a 14 AWG cable, instead of what should be, is the problem to fit anything thicker wire into a banana plug. Is this sounds to you as the right choice to build a cable for the task? Well, as I'm in this hobby for some time, none of the above happened. Most says are a good try that would dissipate quickly after a little research. None holds water. When I got into those peoples system and checked how well their speaker cables fit the system they connect, I found out it is more like throwing a dart in the darkness. Most had missed. Please enlighten me, that there is a way you know, to pick the right (100%) speaker cable. Thanks. |
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 14, 2018 11:50:55 GMT -5
‘Let's be honest. No one really have an idea, what speaker cable they need. So what they've got is, most likely a bid. No calculation, no understanding and no clue. “ Not a chance of this. Bill |
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b4icu
Minor Hero
Posts: 60
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Post by b4icu on Sept 14, 2018 12:21:23 GMT -5
‘Let's be honest. No one really have an idea, what speaker cable they need. So what they've got is, most likely a bid. No calculation, no understanding and no clue. “ Not a chance of this. Bill Hi Bill What about yourself? Tel us how you ended up with your's? What makes you think it is the right cable? The truth is hursh. But it is still the truth. It is hard to admit that most of what's going on around speaker cables, is mostly ignorance. |
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 14, 2018 12:49:27 GMT -5
‘Let's be honest. No one really have an idea, what speaker cable they need. So what they've got is, most likely a bid. No calculation, no understanding and no clue. “ Not a chance of this. Bill Hi Bill What about yourself? Tel us how you ended up with your's? What makes you think it is the right cable? The truth is hursh. But it is still the truth. It is hard to admit that most of what's going on around speaker cables, is mostly ignorance. Well, I had on going communications (over 30 years) with the chief designer/ audio engineer of the brand of loudspeakers that are employed in my system. Many, many topics had been gone over during that time period, not the least of which were proper wiring for his designs. I mean, Jesus, if the guy who actually built the things doesn’t know what to use for a hook up, I would say ALL of us are in trouble. Many who may not be sure, would benefit greatly by just getting on the phone with the B&W’S and such of the world and put the question to them and get a straight answer. Bill |
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Post by pedrocols on Sept 14, 2018 14:07:57 GMT -5
I typically listen music at around 70 to 74db sitting at roughly 8 feet away. I do have two subwoofers to take care or the low end. Hi A good friend of mine had the 1.6 for years. I recommanded them. That time there was no 1.7. He had an ADCOM 250W amp and he enjoyed it a lot. later he added a REL sub. About 3 years ago, he wanted a change... So we went for new speakers. We did not liked the "half baked" 3.7, also gave way to a top Sous Faber and ended up with a B&W802D. Then his ADCOME parished, to be replaced with a PASS LABS 250W amp. a pre (the new 12) and a Luxman CD player. I prepared him all cables: a set of XLRs and a 4 AWG 3m long for the speakers. I like his new sound, even though, he could get way more if he could spare a room for that. I followed your advice and I completely read this post. However, what you are suggesting here is way way out of my budget. My only current option is to enjoy what I have which I think so far is very satisfying. |
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b4icu
Minor Hero
Posts: 60
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Post by b4icu on Sept 14, 2018 14:31:20 GMT -5
Hi A good friend of mine had the 1.6 for years. I recommanded them. That time there was no 1.7. He had an ADCOM 250W amp and he enjoyed it a lot. later he added a REL sub. About 3 years ago, he wanted a change... So we went for new speakers. We did not liked the "half baked" 3.7, also gave way to a top Sous Faber and ended up with a B&W802D. Then his ADCOME parished, to be replaced with a PASS LABS 250W amp. a pre (the new 12) and a Luxman CD player. I prepared him all cables: a set of XLRs and a 4 AWG 3m long for the speakers. I like his new sound, even though, he could get way more if he could spare a room for that. I followed your advice and I completely read this post. However, what you are suggesting here is way way out of my budget. My only current option is to enjoy what I have which I think so far is very satisfying. Hi What is out of our budget? a set of 4 AWG or 0 AWG speaker cables? You may never need one, as long as you are using tube ampliication. I found the use of tub amplifier with a very deanding speaker as a bad choice. You might have a sweet sound, but maybe not the outhentic sound. Some of the ribbon advantage (low distortion) may get lost with this implementation. |
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b4icu
Minor Hero
Posts: 60
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Post by b4icu on Sept 14, 2018 14:42:31 GMT -5
Hi Bill What about yourself? Tel us how you ended up with your's? What makes you think it is the right cable? The truth is hursh. But it is still the truth. It is hard to admit that most of what's going on around speaker cables, is mostly ignorance. Well, I had on going communications (over 30 years) with the chief designer/ audio engineer of the brand of loudspeakers that are employed in my system. Many, many topics had been gone over during that time period, not the least of which were proper wiring for his designs. I mean, Jesus, if the guy who actually built the things doesn’t know what to use for a hook up, I would say ALL of us are in trouble. Many who may not be sure, would benefit greatly by just getting on the phone with the B&W’S and such of the world and put the question to them and get a straight answer. Bill Hi Bill So, you admit that you need to go to this guy from B&W to get answers, as you don't have it. That's get you down the line of those who have no clue if they use the right (or wrong) speaker cable. In other words, get the full potential of your system, regarding speaker cables... Let me be fresh. I bet that the guy from B&W also has no answer for that. I'll go back to the academy. Get an exam to last year graduates, regarding how to calculate the right speaker cable, and see who pass! I'll take it even further. The answer should come from an amplifier manufacturer, B&W makes speakers. Maybe EMOTIVA does. Home of this forum. Try here, let's see if you come up with something educating? |
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Post by mauriceminor on Sept 14, 2018 15:19:24 GMT -5
Noted loudspeaker and crossover network designer Siegfried Linkwitz on speaker cable guidelines:
Wire Gauge Maximum length in feet 18 8 16 12 14 20 12 30 8 80
Further information: www.linkwitzlab.com amplifiers etc. > connections |
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 14, 2018 15:26:41 GMT -5
"Let me be fresh. I bet that the guy from B&W also has no answer for that. I'll go back to the academy." Wow! what planet are you from??  b4icu...…….those last three letters stand for Intensive Care Unit? perhaps? |
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 14, 2018 15:33:56 GMT -5
Noted loudspeaker and crossover network designer Siegfried Linkwitz on speaker cable guidelines:
Wire Gauge Maximum length in feet 18 8 16 12 14 20 12 30 8 80
Further information: www.linkwitzlab.com amplifiers etc. > connections Yeah Mann...…..that's right on the money! And of course that underscores the point that no one SHOULD no better then the designer of the loudspeaker itself. I'm right in there. I'm at 12 gauge with approximately 30 foot runs. It's a bit of overkill (14 would have been just fine) but I do run 400 watts a channel, so the 12 doesn't hurt. Bill |
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b4icu
Minor Hero
Posts: 60
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Post by b4icu on Sept 15, 2018 1:21:05 GMT -5
Noted loudspeaker and crossover network designer Siegfried Linkwitz on speaker cable guidelines:
Wire Gauge Maximum length in feet 18 8 16 12 14 20 12 30 8 80
Further information: www.linkwitzlab.com amplifiers etc. > connections Really? A speaker cable has nothing to do with the two components it is connecting: the amplifier and the speaker? It is just a matter of gauge and length? Sorry, this is wrong! I replaced a 12 feet 14 AWG cable that conected between an Emotiva 300 watt amplifier and Vienna Acoustic Beethoven Baby Grand Speakers, with a 0 AWG and 2.5m (8.2 feet).The 0 AWG was calculated acording to the two components. this is what the guy had to say, after replacing the speaker cables: "My initial impressions: It’s like having new speakers. The sound is pure and clean. Minute details are suddenly apparent. The range is amazing. Highs, mid-tones and a new bass that I didn’t know my speakers were capable of.
It feels that for all these years my speakers were being chocked, and now can suddenly breathe and have their full voice.
To say I’m happy about my new Lang speaker cables is an understatement. I’m thrilled. Thank you for building these superbly engineered cables to unleash the full potential of my home sound system".
With the same calculation, using the equipment data, the 0 AWG cable performs 25 times better than the 14 AWG. This "Siegfried Linkwitz" table suggests that a 16 AWG is good enough for 12 feet! A Linkwitz cable, is made of many cooper wired isolated from each other and only connected at the edge. It was in fashin for a while in the 90's but no more. If going by the AWG table: www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm, or by the formula that calculates a wire resistance over length and cross section in mm2, double the length' so need the cross section double, to keep the same resistance. This is nothing but a copy paste from that table. From where does the first figure is comming from: 8 feet - 18 AWG? |
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b4icu
Minor Hero
Posts: 60
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Post by b4icu on Sept 15, 2018 1:37:10 GMT -5
Noted loudspeaker and crossover network designer Siegfried Linkwitz on speaker cable guidelines:
Wire Gauge Maximum length in feet 18 8 16 12 14 20 12 30 8 80
Further information: www.linkwitzlab.com amplifiers etc. > connections Yeah Mann...…..that's right on the money! And of course that underscores the point that no one SHOULD no better then the designer of the loudspeaker itself. I'm right in there. I'm at 12 gauge with approximately 30 foot runs. It's a bit of overkill (14 would have been just fine) but I do run 400 watts a channel, so the 12 doesn't hurt. Bill Hi Bill The Sunfire Signature 5 channel Amp. spec shows that it can deliver 80A (peak) into a load, as well as drive a 0 ohms load as a voltage source. (Most amps are voltage sources), The www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm sugests a 2-3 AWG wire, only for that current. A 30 feet run is a very long and uncommon length cable. especially for such a spec. Whay don't you try to get as close as possible with the speakers and the amplifier (for a front stage) for a demo setup, with a thicker cable (let's say even a heavy duty jumper cable). You are, more than you think, far from getting the full potential of your equipment. The Sunfire Signature (by spec.) sugest it can delive power into 0 ohms (as a voltage source). It however limit it's say to a current limit of 80A (a 0 ohms load is a short circuit, and if the amplifier can hold it's output voltage, the current would go infinit. Well, it can go only as high as 80A (a respectfull figure at it's own). Using an amp. with such current and power, would be nice to have in mono blocks. Than you could just place each amp. next to it's driven speaker and save the speakers cables length and price. But this sunfire is a 5 ch. amp. The amp's output resistance is 0.05 ohms (325W @ 80A). According to this, your cables should be at least 7 AWG. |
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b4icu
Minor Hero
Posts: 60
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Post by b4icu on Sept 15, 2018 1:52:37 GMT -5
"Let me be fresh. I bet that the guy from B&W also has no answer for that. I'll go back to the academy." Wow! what planet are you from?? b4icu...…….those last three letters stand for Intensive Care Unit? perhaps? Hi Bill Nice observation. Thanks. I'm from a country that invented the cherry tomatos en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_tomato , the disk on key (USB flash drive), the Iron Dome en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome and the Wind Shild en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophy_(countermeasure) (that the US army is buying from us) of the Mercava tank. For myself, used to work on joint projects for General Dynamics (Lockheed), Boeing, and the IAF. So we had a guy from B&W for a short time, than we were addressed to a Siegfried Linkwitz site, with very common practice of length vs gauge, without taking in consideration the speaker nor the amplifier they connect between! All that dosn't proove me wrong, but only strength my say, that most just made a wire connection that is not depanding on the technical requirments, but on other...extra length, maximum thickness to fit a banana plug, or maybe price. |
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 15, 2018 8:03:04 GMT -5
“You are, more than you think, far from getting the full potential of your equipment. this sunfire is a 5 ch. amp. The amp's output resistance is 0.05 ohms (325W @ 80A). According to this, your cables should be at least 7 AWG. “ Boy.....did I ever mess up.....thanks for pointing all of this out. As I mentioned earlier this stuff is way, way beyond my limited comprehension, so I gave your data to my trusty little guy that I hired awhile back to make your specified changes. He’s gonna fix everything on Tuesday. Attachment Deleted |
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b4icu
Minor Hero
Posts: 60
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Post by b4icu on Sept 15, 2018 8:54:02 GMT -5
“You are, more than you think, far from getting the full potential of your equipment. this sunfire is a 5 ch. amp. The amp's output resistance is 0.05 ohms (325W @ 80A). According to this, your cables should be at least 7 AWG. “ Boy.....did I ever mess up.....thanks for pointing all of this out. As I mentioned earlier this stuff is way, way beyond my limited comprehension, so I gave your data to my trusty little guy that I hired awhile back to make your specified changes. He’s gonna fix everything on Tuesday. Hi Please be kind to share with us your impression. Thanks. |
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b4icu
Minor Hero
Posts: 60
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Post by b4icu on Sept 20, 2018 7:20:37 GMT -5
Boy.....did I ever mess up.....thanks for pointing all of this out. As I mentioned earlier this stuff is way, way beyond my limited comprehension, so I gave your data to my trusty little guy that I hired awhile back to make your specified changes. He’s gonna fix everything on Tuesday. Hi Please be kind to share with us your impression. Thanks. Hi Bill What the trusty little guy did to your cabling? What was the sonic result? |
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 20, 2018 9:19:01 GMT -5
“What the trusty little guy did to your cabling?” Nothing.......that’s why I trust him |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 20, 2018 9:24:52 GMT -5
Well, I've got a spare spool of 18-ga. lamp cord that I'd be happy to sell you...
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