hemster
Global Moderator 
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,951
|
Post by hemster on Sept 23, 2018 10:05:08 GMT -5
b4icu, you mentioned a metric named "relative affectivity". Can you please elaborate on it? What unit do you use to measure it? How do you measure it? All I can find on it is: "Adjective: Concerned with or arousing feelings or emotions; emotional. Influenced by or resulting from the emotions, as of a psychological disorder" As an MSEE I have not heard of this factor. Thanks.
|
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 18,489
|
Post by DYohn on Sept 23, 2018 10:06:30 GMT -5
b4icu, you mentioned a metric named "relative affectivity". It sounds to me like a pseudoacoustic variability point. |
|
|
|
Post by DavidR on Sept 23, 2018 10:13:00 GMT -5
this thread is getting.............
|
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Sept 23, 2018 10:22:36 GMT -5
The output impedance for a Hypex Ncore @ 1KHz is 1.5 mohms, so into an 8-ohm load that calculates to DF = 5333.333. DF is perhaps the most meaningless spec in audio. Why do you need that to calculate speaker wire size required for a 500 watt amplifier? He doesn’t....but for pseudo science it’s a top priority. Bill |
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Sept 23, 2018 10:23:37 GMT -5
So I'm sitting here reading this thread, and am just shaking my head. We have some guy here telling everybody they are wrong, and tells everybody that they don't know what they are doing, but as far as I can tell, has provided no real information to help people get where he says we should all be. I say a big whatever.
He's also been very derogetory towards people, yet complains he's not being respected. Again, whatever.
But more importantly for me, why should we take any advice from a guy who can't speak English worth a crap? My grammar isn't perfect by any means, but this guy's grammer, spelling, and use of the wrong words is off the charts hard to take. I strongly suggest before posting he rereads what he is posting, and to use some form of spell check. Having a few words wrong is okay, but when every sentence has mistakes, its painful to read. Either that, or go back to school yourself, grammer school.
|
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Sept 23, 2018 10:31:23 GMT -5
So I'm sitting here reading this thread, and am just shaking my head. We have some guy here telling everybody they are wrong, and tells everybody that they don't know what they are doing, but as far as I can tell, has provided no real information to help people get where he says we should all be. I say a big whatever. He's also been very derogetory towards people, yet complains he's not being respected. Again, whatever. But more importantly for me, why should we take any advice from a guy who can't speak English worth a crap? My grammar isn't perfect by any means, but this guy's grammer, spelling, and use of the wrong words is off the charts hard to take. I strongly suggest before posting he rereads what he is posting, and to use some form of spell check. Having a few words wrong is okay, but when every sentence has mistakes, its painful to read. Either that, or go back to school yourself, grammer school. The misapplication of the Math OR the grammar....I haven’t been able to determine which is worse. Bill |
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Sept 23, 2018 10:39:21 GMT -5
So I'm sitting here reading this thread, and am just shaking my head. We have some guy here telling everybody they are wrong, and tells everybody that they don't know what they are doing, but as far as I can tell, has provided no real information to help people get where he says we should all be. I say a big whatever. He's also been very derogetory towards people, yet complains he's not being respected. Again, whatever. But more importantly for me, why should we take any advice from a guy who can't speak English worth a crap? My grammar isn't perfect by any means, but this guy's grammer, spelling, and use of the wrong words is off the charts hard to take. I strongly suggest before posting he rereads what he is posting, and to use some form of spell check. Having a few words wrong is okay, but when every sentence has mistakes, its painful to read. Either that, or go back to school yourself, grammer school. The misapplication of the Math OR the grammar....I haven’t been able to determine which is worse. Bill I'm not bothering with listening to his math because it doesn't really interest me, and because he seems hell bent on bragging about something he won't share. On the other hand, reading his horrible grammer and spelling is hard to take. A well educated person from Israel should speak better English, even if it is their second language. |
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,092
|
Post by klinemj on Sept 23, 2018 10:46:43 GMT -5
If your formula is so secret, I hope you have filed a patent on it. It could make you $. Mark (PS - short of seeing a formula or you laying out the fundamentals clear enough for others to understand, I stand with the others who have quoted numerous experts on the topic. And, FYI, I used to use ~4' long cables that ran from monoblocks to my speakers. Each terminal had dual 10 gauge wires, for an effective 7 gauge. I switched to thinner and longer wires and heard 0 difference.) Hi Good for you. 1. Most guys here had cables way longer than 4'. As the formula of cooper cable resistance is: R = ρ x L/S (L is in meters and S is in mm2. ρ is coopers conductivity k). So as L goes 3-6 times shorter, so can go the cable thickness. cooper: 1.68x10-8 @ 10 deg C. 2. There is a relative affectivity when you reach a certain resistance (the optimal resistance), when the cable can get lower in R (resistance) but it won't do any better. I think that you were there, even no data on your equipment was provided. If you would be kind enough to provide that information, I could tel you what is that optimal length vs thickness you need. Your assumption that the thicker and shorter will go better would work till you reach a certain resistance (low). Afterwords, it will have no audiable effect. Especially for those (and I said it loud and clear) that use monoblocks, can save big on cables, as they can be placed relatively close to the speakers. On top, if you were using tube amplifiers (or similar) you could use maybe a line phone cord and would do... Michael I see dyohn already provided the DF for you. I have other info on the Hypex and power supply combo which was provided, but since all you need is DF...sounds like you have what you need. FYI, when I sized my cables, I was looking at power drop through the line and the theoretical impact on dB drop. Even for modest gauge and the kinds of lengths I was contemplating (4-6' is what I looked at), I was at diminishing returns on dB drop. I went with dual 10 gauge "just because I could". Home Depot sold some nice 10 gauge wire in various colors, so I chose blue and white (one for +, one for -) and made my own using some really hefty banana plugs from Parts Express. As I mentioned, switching from the dual 10 gauge to longer, thinner wires (in this case...2 meter, 16 gauge) had no audible effect. My calcs said there would be none and I certainly could not detect any. I switched from the dual 10 to the longer thinner because I changed how my system was laid out and needed longer cables. Sounds like others already have a solid handle on the needed calcs and are using it to good effect. Mark |
|
b4icu
Minor Hero
Posts: 60
|
Post by b4icu on Sept 23, 2018 11:32:51 GMT -5
The output impedance for a Hypex Ncore @ 1KHz is 1.5 mohms, so into an 8-ohm load that calculates to DF = 5333.333. DF is perhaps the most meaningless spec in audio. Why do you need that to calculate speaker wire size required for a 500 watt amplifier? Reference please. These figures are not found in any other amplifier. Even EMOTIVA's 500 is on the upper scale. |
|
b4icu
Minor Hero
Posts: 60
|
Post by b4icu on Sept 23, 2018 11:36:43 GMT -5
b4icu , you mentioned a metric named "relative affectivity". Can you please elaborate on it? What unit do you use to measure it? How do you measure it? All I can find on it is: "Adjective: Concerned with or arousing feelings or emotions; emotional. Influenced by or resulting from the emotions, as of a psychological disorder" As an MSEE I have not heard of this factor. Thanks. Really? A DC to DC power supply, that has a 78% affectivity (efficiancy), would it have the same at all output powers? Well, at 90% maybe yes. At others it will be less. So the data is always be given at the best power, on other power you nee to check or test. You are a MSEE and looked it up where? In the webster dictionary  |
|
|
|
Post by pedrocols on Sept 23, 2018 11:49:43 GMT -5
Good topic good topic. The funny thing is that he has persuade us to participate...  |
|
b4icu
Minor Hero
Posts: 60
|
Post by b4icu on Sept 23, 2018 11:55:08 GMT -5
Hi Good for you. 1. Most guys here had cables way longer than 4'. As the formula of cooper cable resistance is: R = ρ x L/S (L is in meters and S is in mm2. ρ is coopers conductivity k). So as L goes 3-6 times shorter, so can go the cable thickness. cooper: 1.68x10-8 @ 10 deg C. 2. There is a relative affectivity when you reach a certain resistance (the optimal resistance), when the cable can get lower in R (resistance) but it won't do any better. I think that you were there, even no data on your equipment was provided. If you would be kind enough to provide that information, I could tel you what is that optimal length vs thickness you need. Your assumption that the thicker and shorter will go better would work till you reach a certain resistance (low). Afterwords, it will have no audiable effect. Especially for those (and I said it loud and clear) that use monoblocks, can save big on cables, as they can be placed relatively close to the speakers. On top, if you were using tube amplifiers (or similar) you could use maybe a line phone cord and would do... Michael I see dyohn already provided the DF for you. I have other info on the Hypex and power supply combo which was provided, but since all you need is DF...sounds like you have what you need. FYI, when I sized my cables, I was looking at power drop through the line and the theoretical impact on dB drop. Even for modest gauge and the kinds of lengths I was contemplating (4-6' is what I looked at), I was at diminishing returns on dB drop. I went with dual 10 gauge "just because I could". Home Depot sold some nice 10 gauge wire in various colors, so I chose blue and white (one for +, one for -) and made my own using some really hefty banana plugs from Parts Express. As I mentioned, switching from the dual 10 gauge to longer, thinner wires (in this case...2 meter, 16 gauge) had no audible effect. My calcs said there would be none and I certainly could not detect any. I switched from the dual 10 to the longer thinner because I changed how my system was laid out and needed longer cables. Sounds like others already have a solid handle on the needed calcs and are using it to good effect. Mark Hi Mark Your approach is wrong. A 4' 10 AWG (the double is like a single wire as there are two cables, the red and the black). A 10 AWG would have 1 ohms per every 1,000m, in your case. I'll assume it is about 4m Ohms. (easier to calculate). Your Maggie have 4 ohms impedance. It's a 1:1000 ratio. So you may loss on that cable 0.1% (you cannot here that). The load (speaker's impedance) has nothing to do with the cable resistance. Neither the power you play them. For the length, I'll stay with your 4' say rather than fiddle around after your placements. How did you connected the wire ends to the equipment? The direct wire to binding post, is getting loss and need every here and than a fix. |
|
|
|
Post by mgbpuff on Sept 23, 2018 11:56:26 GMT -5
I think that there is a language barrier between b4ciu and the majority of the Lounge members. It is leading in directions possibly never intended by anyone. So, b4icu, what are you trying to achieve here? Learn something? Teach something? How can we help? Perhaps the language barrier is too steep, are there not audio blogs in Israel that you could converse with better?
|
|
b4icu
Minor Hero
Posts: 60
|
Post by b4icu on Sept 23, 2018 11:57:00 GMT -5
Good topic good topic. The funny thing is that he has persuade us to participate... It's a free choice. You can stay out if that's doesn't suit you. |
|
b4icu
Minor Hero
Posts: 60
|
Post by b4icu on Sept 23, 2018 12:00:51 GMT -5
I think that there is a language barrier between b4ciu and the majority of the Lounge members. It is leading in directions possibly never intended by anyone. So, b4icu, what are you trying to achieve here? Learn something? Teach something? How can we help? Thanks Just to have an open discussion, as forums do. This topic never been trolley addressed. I thought I could help. English is my third language. It is not a barrier. Michael |
|
|
|
Post by mgbpuff on Sept 23, 2018 12:07:11 GMT -5
You may think it is not a barrier, but it seems to be. You answered before I added a the statement " Perhaps the language barrier is too steep, are there not audio blogs in Israel that you could converse with better?" Technical discussions, unless one sticks to purely mathematical means, can be hard to convey in less than one's first language.
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,092
|
Post by klinemj on Sept 23, 2018 12:08:25 GMT -5
I see dyohn already provided the DF for you. I have other info on the Hypex and power supply combo which was provided, but since all you need is DF...sounds like you have what you need. FYI, when I sized my cables, I was looking at power drop through the line and the theoretical impact on dB drop. Even for modest gauge and the kinds of lengths I was contemplating (4-6' is what I looked at), I was at diminishing returns on dB drop. I went with dual 10 gauge "just because I could". Home Depot sold some nice 10 gauge wire in various colors, so I chose blue and white (one for +, one for -) and made my own using some really hefty banana plugs from Parts Express. As I mentioned, switching from the dual 10 gauge to longer, thinner wires (in this case...2 meter, 16 gauge) had no audible effect. My calcs said there would be none and I certainly could not detect any. I switched from the dual 10 to the longer thinner because I changed how my system was laid out and needed longer cables. Sounds like others already have a solid handle on the needed calcs and are using it to good effect. Mark Hi Mark Your approach is wrong. A 4' 10 AWG (the double is like a single wire as there are two cables, the red and the black). A 10 AWG would have 1 ohms per every 1,000m, in your case. I'll assume it is about 4m Ohms. (easier to calculate). Your Maggie have 4 ohms impedance. It's a 1:1000 ratio. So you may loss on that cable 0.1% (you cannot here that). The load (speaker's impedance) has nothing to do with the cable resistance. Neither the power you play them. For the length, I'll stay with your 4' say rather than fiddle around after your placements. How did you connected the wire ends to the equipment? The direct wire to binding post, is getting loss and need every here and than a fix. Correct me if I am wrong in understanding what you are saying, but you gave a formula for resistance. And, you talked about diminishing returns from further reductions in gauge - which I assumed to be diminishing returns from reductions in resistance. I referred to having looked at that, and now you say "your approach is wrong". I have also looked at damping factor, and I found I had way above what most recommend...with my dual 10 gauge or the others. So, what's "wrong" with my approach if I appear to be using the same approach you are. And, as for connect type, I've had everything from direct wire to terminals to wire welded to banana plugs (or other connectors) to wire screwed down into banana plugs. One member here measure some differences in resistance and found a certain brand's welded version gave the least resistance for similar cable sizes. Even then, with appropriate lengths and damping factor, that's not really meaningful. So...calculate what you think I should have instead of telling me "I'm doing it wrong". Mark |
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,489
|
Post by DYohn on Sept 23, 2018 12:09:36 GMT -5
The output impedance for a Hypex Ncore @ 1KHz is 1.5 mohms, so into an 8-ohm load that calculates to DF = 5333.333. DF is perhaps the most meaningless spec in audio. Why do you need that to calculate speaker wire size required for a 500 watt amplifier? Reference please. These figures are not found in any other amplifier. Even EMOTIVA's 500 is on the upper scale. The electrical specs are the same for all Ncore amplifier modules. |
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,092
|
Post by klinemj on Sept 23, 2018 12:23:35 GMT -5
Reference please. These figures are not found in any other amplifier. Even EMOTIVA's 500 is on the upper scale. The electrical specs are the same for all Ncore amplifier modules. A comparable spec sheet I have from when I bought my nc400's shows even lower output impedance...0.6 mOhm for "typical" and 1 for "maximum". In any case - very lower relative to my speaker impedance and that of any wires....netting a massive damping factor whether I use my #'s or yours. And, as I noted to b4icu, my calcs on wire resistance show I would be way beyond the point of diminishing returns with my dual 10 gauge and not meaningfully better than 2 meter 16 gauge. Mark |
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,489
|
Post by DYohn on Sept 23, 2018 12:28:04 GMT -5
Yep. Science and math do not lie. By the way the NC-500 is the replacement for the 400.
|
|
