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Post by koeitje on Feb 25, 2020 14:05:57 GMT -5
I can't speak to #2, but I have seen a lot from the reviewer in the past that were cause for pause...sketchy might be appropriate. Mark Sketchy is very appropriate. He gave a terrible "review" with bad measurements to the PS Audio Directstream DAC. That piece of gear is very well respected and has received glowing reviews from many trusted reviewers. He is a guy in his basement with some fancy testing gear that he may or may not know how to use. That is all. Look, the difference is very simple. If you look at fidelity the Direcstream DAC is a terrible piece of gear. But as you say, some people aren't looking for high fidelity. Audiophiles can be separated into two groups: hifi enthusiasts and myfi enthusiasts. The Directstream is clearly aimed at those who like to colour the sound to their tastes. Nothing wrong with that, but its not an accurate representation of the source material and thus not high fidelity. The measurements of the RMC-1 show that this is also aimed at myfi enthusiasts. And as Lonnie said: people like the sound. But lets not confuse liking the sound with high performance. My biggest questions with this guys reviews are what is his test bench? I do agree with his gripes though about the firmware. I haven't tried 1.8 yet but 1.7 does have its share of issues. The Please wait issue is something most people aren't going to want to deal with. I also think there are way more problems then there should be with a processor at this price point. Will be interesting to see how Emotiva's numbers compare and also to see another review with actual data. One thing I will say is it is strange this processor has been out so long and no real reviews of it until this guys.... Emotiva has some answering to do. His test bench is an Audio Precision APx555 Audio Analyzer. Which is state of the art and the reference in audio measurements. You can buy 5 RMC-1's for the price of one APx555 and still have spare change left. The APx555 is the best of the best.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Feb 25, 2020 14:12:24 GMT -5
My biggest questions with this guys reviews are what is his test bench? I do agree with his gripes though about the firmware. I haven't tried 1.8 yet but 1.7 does have its share of issues. The Please wait issue is something most people aren't going to want to deal with. I also think there are way more problems then there should be with a processor at this price point. Will be interesting to see how Emotiva's numbers compare and also to see another review with actual data. One thing I will say is it is strange this processor has been out so long and no real reviews of it until this guys.... Emotiva has some answering to do. Try 1.8.
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Post by garbulky on Feb 25, 2020 14:15:31 GMT -5
Measurements can be affected by noise from various sources. Using a PC to generate a signal is suspect to me. Cheap probes, cheap scope (or is the reviewer using a virtual scope?), using jumpers attached to probes (who knows?), any test component not rated for the test can allow noise to be injected into the signal. So measurements are equipment and personnel dependent. Measurements "can" be the same between multiple lab technicians if the same equipment is used under the same lab conditions. It's more likely that the measurements would be "close", but not identical, which is perfectly acceptable. Yes, you make a good point here. That's why you need a somebody that knows what they are doing, has a bunch of measurements to compare them to, has their results verified by multiple manufacturers and has the right tools. So that's what makes this review good. Amir is using an APX555 to do his measurements, this is the industry standard in audio measurements. This little piece of kit goes for $28000 excl. extra modules. He has a ton of measurements done and many have been confirmed by manufacturers. Mainly the smaller ones that are open to improving their products. And just so you know the PC is not generating the signal, the PC just controls the APX555. Also nobody is expecting for a HT processor to match a stereo DAC, because in a stereo DAC you don't have to deal with all the signal processing and noise in an AVR and you can stack channels. Disabling all the signal processing should result in results similar to this 8 channel DAC: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-okto-dac8-8ch-dac-amp.7064/. Its no surpise Okto publishes their own measurements on their website: they know what they are doing. But I hear that a simple reset should fix all problems, so I'm looking forward to SOTA performance . If you look at their processor measurements of several processors, you'll find that disabling signal processing in processors or at least putting it in "reference mode" or "direct mode" doesn't get measurements anywhere close to that Okto DAC. Lonnie si right that simply because one has an AP doesn't mean that it is standardized. There are many variables to setup to test. Amir has documented quite a few of his variables both in his graphs and also on the forum. The other thing to ntoe is that for the most part the tests are standardized to themselves. So he's probably measured close to a 100 dacs using the same technique, including the XMC-1. The XMC-1 did better than the RMC-1. Now that doesn't mean he's not made mistakes. I've seen several reviews where usually it's an issue with the USB ASIO driver or something like that but when that's found out, he usually re-runs it. If I was Emotiva I would provide the measurements as they promised and then provide Amir a brand new unit to measure. I would also coordinate with him to make sure that the test setup is up to the standards Emotiva wants because he is usually happy to run a particular test that someone requests.
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Post by donh50 on Feb 25, 2020 14:16:15 GMT -5
HDMI is at heart a video standard and the interleaved audio signal usually has higher (in some cases much higher) jitter than using analog or S/PDIF inputs. I would not expect the results to improve using HDMI although anything can happen. Every other AVR/AVP I have seen measures worse using HDMI.
As for Amir, his bio is on his site, as are a description of his methodology and plenty of other comparable measurements. Still hoping Emotiva touches base and/or publishes their own measurements. Shooting the messenger and anyone who agrees with him isn't really going to do anything.
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Post by donh50 on Feb 25, 2020 14:20:30 GMT -5
p.s. Not sure where folk got the idea his PC is generating the signal; that is false. His PC controls the AP analyzer but all the work, including signal generation, is by the AP unit itself. The AP hook-up has been vetted many, many times on gobs of other gear.
Per Amir: "The signal is digital in nature as it is fed to AES input of the RMC-1. It is generated by the Audio Precision analyzer and NOT my computer. It would not be an issue for the PC to send it the same signal though as long as you bypass the Windows audio stack. I have done this countless times and results are identical. As it should be for digital data.
That same signal when fed to a quality DAC produces performance that if far, far better than RMC-1. So no matter which way you look at it, the signal or the setup is not an issue."
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 25, 2020 14:21:36 GMT -5
Lonnie is addressing most of these questions... including some measurements...
However I must chime in here... The RMC-1 consumes less power than my big Asus laptop computer... whose power supply weighs about twice as much as the RMC-1's remote control. The working parts in a modern processor are not especially large or heavy... and making them larger and heavier doesn't improve their performance. (That sort of thinking had some basis in facts with some vintage audio gear... especially amplifiers... but not much with modern gear...)
This is one of those situations where it's really better if you withhold forming opinions without the requisite engineering background.
Blood tests are actually an excellent example there... They are only useful if you take the correct tests... take them properly... and know how to read them.
That depends on how those reviews are done. A good reviewer does normally not tell you, which equipment you should buy, but instead give you an idea how he experienced the reviewed product. That's what I do like on the mentioned reviewers. Have a look at the work of John Darko or Thomas & Stereo for example. I really like the way they are doing their reviews. I really don't care about measurements. It says nothing to me... Yeah, like when you go to a doctor, if the doctor doesn't do any blood tests to reveal how things are working... as long as you feel ok... measurements and tests done to baselines aren't important. Just be happy that some guy did a review sitting on his couch concluded it sounds better than brand XYZ... that's more important. SQ is subjective, real lab measurements are not. You may think it sounds better, and you can just "think" that.
It's interesting that the measurements seem to all point to a crappy power supply. When you pick up the RMC1 , it's pretty easy to tell there's not much weight to the PSU. When I first lifted it out of the box I nearly hit myself in the face because I was expecting it to weigh so much more, it looked like something from an "The Office" episode.
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Feb 25, 2020 14:22:14 GMT -5
Sketchy is very appropriate. He gave a terrible "review" with bad measurements to the PS Audio Directstream DAC. That piece of gear is very well respected and has received glowing reviews from many trusted reviewers. He is a guy in his basement with some fancy testing gear that he may or may not know how to use. That is all. Look, the difference is very simple. If you look at fidelity the Direcstream DAC is a terrible piece of gear. But as you say, some people aren't looking for high fidelity. Audiophiles can be separated into two groups: hifi enthusiasts and myfi enthusiasts. The Directstream is clearly aimed at those who like to colour the sound to their tastes. Nothing wrong with that, but its not an accurate representation of the source material and thus not high fidelity. The measurements of the RMC-1 show that this is also aimed at myfi enthusiasts. And as Lonnie said: people like the sound. But lets not confuse liking the sound with high performance. My biggest questions with this guys reviews are what is his test bench? I do agree with his gripes though about the firmware. I haven't tried 1.8 yet but 1.7 does have its share of issues. The Please wait issue is something most people aren't going to want to deal with. I also think there are way more problems then there should be with a processor at this price point. Will be interesting to see how Emotiva's numbers compare and also to see another review with actual data. One thing I will say is it is strange this processor has been out so long and no real reviews of it until this guys.... Emotiva has some answering to do. His test bench is an Audio Precision APx555 Audio Analyzer. Which is state of the art and the reference in audio measurements. You can buy 5 RMC-1's for the price of one APx555 and still have spare change left. The APx555 is the best of the best. Having the best gear in the world doesn't mean one knows how to use it. He can't even get HDMI to work with either the Emotiva or Monoprice processors. Why would that be?
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koeitje
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Post by koeitje on Feb 25, 2020 14:22:15 GMT -5
HDMI is at heart a video standard and the interleaved audio signal usually has higher (in some cases much higher) jitter than using analog or S/PDIF inputs. I would not expect the results to improve using HDMI although anything can happen. Every other AVR/AVP I have seen measures worse using HDMI. As for Amir, his bio is on his site, as are a description of his methodology and plenty of other comparable measurements. Still hoping Emotiva touches base and/or publishes their own measurements. Shooting the messenger and anyone who agrees with him isn't really going to do anything. Jitter does not explain noise and THD performance though. Yes, you make a good point here. That's why you need a somebody that knows what they are doing, has a bunch of measurements to compare them to, has their results verified by multiple manufacturers and has the right tools. So that's what makes this review good. Amir is using an APX555 to do his measurements, this is the industry standard in audio measurements. This little piece of kit goes for $28000 excl. extra modules. He has a ton of measurements done and many have been confirmed by manufacturers. Mainly the smaller ones that are open to improving their products. And just so you know the PC is not generating the signal, the PC just controls the APX555. Also nobody is expecting for a HT processor to match a stereo DAC, because in a stereo DAC you don't have to deal with all the signal processing and noise in an AVR and you can stack channels. Disabling all the signal processing should result in results similar to this 8 channel DAC: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-okto-dac8-8ch-dac-amp.7064/. Its no surpise Okto publishes their own measurements on their website: they know what they are doing. But I hear that a simple reset should fix all problems, so I'm looking forward to SOTA performance . If you look at their processor measurements of several processors, you'll find that disabling signal processing in processors or at least putting it in "reference mode" or "direct mode" doesn't get measurements anywhere close to that Okto DAC. Lonnie si right that simply because one has an AP doesn't mean that it is standardized. There are many variables to setup to test. Amir has documented quite a few of his variables both in his graphs and also on the forum. The other thing to ntoe is that for the most part the tests are standardized to themselves. So he's probably measured close to a 100 dacs using the same technique, including the XMC-1. The XMC-1 did better than the RMC-1. Now that doesn't mean he's not made mistakes. I've seen several reviews where usually it's an issue with the USB ASIO driver or something like that but when that's found out, he usually re-runs it. If I was Emotiva I would provide the measurements as they promised and then provide Amir a brand new unit to measure. I would also coordinate with him to make sure that the test setup is up to the standards Emotiva wants because he is usually happy to run a particular test that someone requests. I know it still doesn't provide SOTA performance in reference mode, but maybe if the firmware fix can get the same performance is full processing mode it will be an acceptable score.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 25, 2020 14:23:43 GMT -5
I would point out that you are indeed correct... the AP x555 is a piece of state of the art measurement gear. However, as with racing cars, you need a great piece of gear and a great driver to win the race.
Sketchy is very appropriate. He gave a terrible "review" with bad measurements to the PS Audio Directstream DAC. That piece of gear is very well respected and has received glowing reviews from many trusted reviewers. He is a guy in his basement with some fancy testing gear that he may or may not know how to use. That is all. Look, the difference is very simple. If you look at fidelity the Direcstream DAC is a terrible piece of gear. But as you say, some people aren't looking for high fidelity. Audiophiles can be separated into two groups: hifi enthusiasts and myfi enthusiasts. The Directstream is clearly aimed at those who like to colour the sound to their tastes. Nothing wrong with that, but its not an accurate representation of the source material and thus not high fidelity. The measurements of the RMC-1 show that this is also aimed at myfi enthusiasts. And as Lonnie said: people like the sound. But lets not confuse liking the sound with high performance. My biggest questions with this guys reviews are what is his test bench? I do agree with his gripes though about the firmware. I haven't tried 1.8 yet but 1.7 does have its share of issues. The Please wait issue is something most people aren't going to want to deal with. I also think there are way more problems then there should be with a processor at this price point. Will be interesting to see how Emotiva's numbers compare and also to see another review with actual data. One thing I will say is it is strange this processor has been out so long and no real reviews of it until this guys.... Emotiva has some answering to do. His test bench is an Audio Precision APx555 Audio Analyzer. Which is state of the art and the reference in audio measurements. You can buy 5 RMC-1's for the price of one APx555 and still have spare change left. The APx555 is the best of the best.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Feb 25, 2020 14:25:30 GMT -5
His test bench is an Audio Precision APx555 Audio Analyzer. Which is state of the art and the reference in audio measurements. You can buy 5 RMC-1's for the price of one APx555 and still have spare change left. The APx555 is the best of the best. All tools can be used improperly, even expensive ones. At least one person has already called into question his stated test conditions on the 'review', just as has been done on many of his prior 'reviews'. Garbage in, garbage out... Mark
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koeitje
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Post by koeitje on Feb 25, 2020 14:26:05 GMT -5
I would point out that you are indeed correct... the AP x555 is a piece of state of the art measurement gear. However, as with racing cars, you need a great piece of gear and a great driver to win the race.
Look, the difference is very simple. If you look at fidelity the Direcstream DAC is a terrible piece of gear. But as you say, some people aren't looking for high fidelity. Audiophiles can be separated into two groups: hifi enthusiasts and myfi enthusiasts. The Directstream is clearly aimed at those who like to colour the sound to their tastes. Nothing wrong with that, but its not an accurate representation of the source material and thus not high fidelity. The measurements of the RMC-1 show that this is also aimed at myfi enthusiasts. And as Lonnie said: people like the sound. But lets not confuse liking the sound with high performance. His test bench is an Audio Precision APx555 Audio Analyzer. Which is state of the art and the reference in audio measurements. You can buy 5 RMC-1's for the price of one APx555 and still have spare change left. The APx555 is the best of the best. You are correct, and he has proven to be able provide good and accurate measurements for hundreds of pieces of gear. These results have also been verified by several manufacturers and another user that has the same analyzer. If you think his methodology is wrong he is very much open to suggestions. He asked Emotiva for feedback, but they haven't responded yet. Other manufactures have and if Amir was wrong he has corrected his reviews to reflect these changes.
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Post by rhale64 on Feb 25, 2020 14:27:52 GMT -5
It's funny he didn't like the Direct Stream Dac. I had one. I didn't like it at all. I thought it sounded harsh. I tried reverting firmware, and reinstalling firmware and everything. I thought my buddy's Mytech Brooklyn+ sounded better. So with that my ears agree with his measurements. One of the reasons I decided to get out of the hobby was buying that stinking Dac. What a mistake.
But on the RMC1 my ears do not agree. I had an RMC1 and returned it and got out of the hobby. It lasted one summer. Then when I returned I went with what I learned from my previous system. While I hated the quirks and problems with the RMC1 I loved the sound quality. I did a lot of research on what was out and in the near future. I ended up buying an RMC1L. And it sounds fantastic. So dynamic, but without any edginess that would be present with these measurements. I have slight tinnitus in my right ear. Any deviation from noise free causes it to act up. I have hated digital since the beginning up until about 6 years ago. All of it bothered my ears. I can honestly say that I like the sound of the RMC very well. And it doesn't bother my ears unless it is turned way up.
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koeitje
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Post by koeitje on Feb 25, 2020 14:31:02 GMT -5
It's funny he didn't like the Direct Stream Dac. I had one. I didn't like it at all. I thought it sounded harsh. I tried reverting firmware, and reinstalling firmware and everything. I thought my buddy's Mytech Brooklyn+ sounded better. So with that my ears agree with his measurements. One of the reasons I decided to get out of the hobby was buying that stinking Dac. What a mistake. But on the RMC1 my ears do not agree. I had an RMC1 and returned it and got out of the hobby. It lasted one summer. Then when I returned I went with what I learned from my previous system. While I hated the quirks and problems with the RMC1 I loved the sound quality. I did a lot of research on what was out and in the near future. I ended up buying an RMC1L. And it sounds fantastic. So dynamic, but without any edginess that would be present with these measurements. I have slight tinnitus in my right ear. Any deviation from noise free causes it to act up. I have hated digital since the beginning up until about 6 years ago. All of it bothered my ears. I can honestly say that I like the sound of the RMC very well. And it doesn't bother my ears unless it is turned way up. The RMC-1's faults are barely in the audible range, so there is a good chance it sounds just fine. But if I'm spending $4000 I'm expecting high-end performance and not just acceptable performance. There are also some clear design errors, such as the filter. There must be a massive fault in the firmware.
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Post by thxultra on Feb 25, 2020 14:32:29 GMT -5
My biggest questions with this guys reviews are what is his test bench? I do agree with his gripes though about the firmware. I haven't tried 1.8 yet but 1.7 does have its share of issues. The Please wait issue is something most people aren't going to want to deal with. I also think there are way more problems then there should be with a processor at this price point. Will be interesting to see how Emotiva's numbers compare and also to see another review with actual data. One thing I will say is it is strange this processor has been out so long and no real reviews of it until this guys.... Emotiva has some answering to do. Try 1.8. Looking forward to testing it tonight. Wanted to wait for Emotiva to post it in the firmware section now that they have I will be installing it tonight. From what I'm reading sounds like it will address some issues I have been having.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Feb 25, 2020 14:35:27 GMT -5
It's funny he didn't like the Direct Stream Dac. I had one. I didn't like it at all. I thought it sounded harsh. I tried reverting firmware, and reinstalling firmware and everything. I thought my buddy's Mytech Brooklyn+ sounded better. So with that my ears agree with his measurements. One of the reasons I decided to get out of the hobby was buying that stinking Dac. What a mistake. But on the RMC1 my ears do not agree. I had an RMC1 and returned it and got out of the hobby. It lasted one summer. Then when I returned I went with what I learned from my previous system. While I hated the quirks and problems with the RMC1 I loved the sound quality. I did a lot of research on what was out and in the near future. I ended up buying an RMC1L. And it sounds fantastic. So dynamic, but without any edginess that would be present with these measurements. I have slight tinnitus in my right ear. Any deviation from noise free causes it to act up. I have hated digital since the beginning up until about 6 years ago. All of it bothered my ears. I can honestly say that I like the sound of the RMC very well. And it doesn't bother my ears unless it is turned way up. The RMC-1's faults are barely in the audible range, so there is a good chance it sounds just fine. But if I'm spending $4000 I'm expecting high-end performance and not just acceptable performance. There are also some clear design errors, such as the filter. There must be a massive fault in the firmware. I doubt you are buying one.
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 25, 2020 14:35:51 GMT -5
The Directstream is clearly aimed at those who like to colour the sound to their tastes. Nothing wrong with that, but its not an accurate representation of the source material and thus not high fidelity. Everything colors the sound. Amps color it, tubes color it, preamps color it, speaker wire colors it, interconnects, Dirac, room-treatments, speaker drivers, crossovers, capacitor types, the list goes on and on - because *everything* colors the reproduction. The whole point is to create a setup with a result that is most pleasing to your ears; by default *everyone* is coloring the sound to their tastes.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Feb 25, 2020 14:37:16 GMT -5
Looking forward to testing it tonight. Wanted to wait for Emotiva to post it in the firmware section now that they have I will be installing it tonight. From what I'm reading sounds like it will address some issues I have been having. It has addressed most of my issues with my XMC-2. Much faster. Video on Standby works. Much more stability.
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koeitje
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Post by koeitje on Feb 25, 2020 14:41:18 GMT -5
The RMC-1's faults are barely in the audible range, so there is a good chance it sounds just fine. But if I'm spending $4000 I'm expecting high-end performance and not just acceptable performance. There are also some clear design errors, such as the filter. There must be a massive fault in the firmware. I doubt you are buying one. That is 100% correct, these measurements put me off. It was on my shortlist together with the AV8805. Looking into Arcam now, or maybe something cheaper. Looks like price has zero correlation with processor performance.
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koeitje
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Post by koeitje on Feb 25, 2020 14:42:22 GMT -5
The Directstream is clearly aimed at those who like to colour the sound to their tastes. Nothing wrong with that, but its not an accurate representation of the source material and thus not high fidelity. Everything colors the sound. Amps color it, tubes color it, preamps color it, speaker wire colors it, interconnects, Dirac, room-treatments, speaker drivers, crossovers, capacitor types, the list goes on and on - because *everything* colors the reproduction. The whole point is to create a setup with a result that is most pleasing to your ears; by default *everyone* is coloring the sound to their tastes. Correct, that's why you try and color the sound as little as possible so you only have to deal with speakers and the room. Also cables do nothing, good placebo though.
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Post by dj7675 on Feb 25, 2020 14:42:36 GMT -5
This will be interesting to follow... still nothing that the results are not correct or what tests and/or testing procedures are incorrect. Looking forward to the tests/measurements from Emotiva later.
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