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Post by SOWK on Feb 25, 2020 14:43:57 GMT -5
I would point out that you are indeed correct... the AP x555 is a piece of state of the art measurement gear. However, as with racing cars, you need a great piece of gear and a great driver to win the race. Those in glass houses should not throw stones Keith....
The Emotiva Processors have their fair share of problems. Let's not put full blame on the reviewer.
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Post by alexreusch on Feb 25, 2020 14:45:12 GMT -5
That depends on how those reviews are done. A good reviewer does normally not tell you, which equipment you should buy, but instead give you an idea how he experienced the reviewed product. That's what I do like on the mentioned reviewers. Have a look at the work of John Darko or Thomas & Stereo for example. I really like the way they are doing their reviews. I really don't care about measurements. It says nothing to me...
Yeah, like when you go to a doctor, if the doctor doesn't do any blood tests to reveal how things are working... as long as you feel ok... measurements and tests done to baselines aren't important. Just be happy that some guy did a review sitting on his couch concluded it sounds better than brand XYZ... that's more important. SQ is subjective, real lab measurements are not. You may think it sounds better, and you can just "think" that. That's not how those guys do their reviews. They don't tell you that product A sounds better then product B. But instead, they describe how A sounds compared to B. How is the base, the resolution, clarity, tonality, sound stage etc.? Because they review a lot of stuff, there are also products, which I do know by my own personal experience. By comparing their view with my experience of the same product, I get a pretty good feeling of how to interprete their opinion about a specific product. I don't say in general, that measurements are a bad thing, when developing a product. For example to to make sure, that the new developed product does not have any critical flaws by design. But using measurements to do a product review? Especially if the person doing those measurements (ASR) has a very doubtful method in the industry? Sorry, but you can find tons of discussion boards where people question the methods of ASR. And by my own personal experience, I have heard multiple products that really sound great, but got a terrible review by ASR. So I simply don't care about the opinion of ASR. It failed many times in my eyes (or ears)... so I ignore it. As important measurments for a developer team might be, I don't care about it as an enduser. Sorry, not at all. All I care is how it sounds. As I mentioned earlier: Trusted reviewers help me to decide what products are worth to have a closer look at. But the final decision is on me alone (and my ears).
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Post by hsamwel on Feb 25, 2020 14:55:02 GMT -5
It's funny he didn't like the Direct Stream Dac. I had one. I didn't like it at all. I thought it sounded harsh. I tried reverting firmware, and reinstalling firmware and everything. I thought my buddy's Mytech Brooklyn+ sounded better. So with that my ears agree with his measurements. One of the reasons I decided to get out of the hobby was buying that stinking Dac. What a mistake. But on the RMC1 my ears do not agree. I had an RMC1 and returned it and got out of the hobby. It lasted one summer. Then when I returned I went with what I learned from my previous system. While I hated the quirks and problems with the RMC1 I loved the sound quality. I did a lot of research on what was out and in the near future. I ended up buying an RMC1L. And it sounds fantastic. So dynamic, but without any edginess that would be present with these measurements. I have slight tinnitus in my right ear. Any deviation from noise free causes it to act up. I have hated digital since the beginning up until about 6 years ago. All of it bothered my ears. I can honestly say that I like the sound of the RMC very well. And it doesn't bother my ears unless it is turned way up. The RMC-1's faults are barely in the audible range, so there is a good chance it sounds just fine. But if I'm spending $4000 I'm expecting high-end performance and not just acceptable performance. There are also some clear design errors, such as the filter. There must be a massive fault in the firmware. I agree! With its price it should measure as good as it sounds. If there is the something wrong with the tested hardware or the hardware design in general will be interesting to find out. Hopefully Emotivas results will be out soon. Maybe also a clear description on how the test was made. Then if results are totally different maybe Amir could get another RMC sent to him from Emotiva that is guaranteed to be OK. So another test could be done.
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Post by hsamwel on Feb 25, 2020 15:01:02 GMT -5
Lonnie is addressing most of these questions... including some measurements...
However I must chime in here... The RMC-1 consumes less power than my big Asus laptop computer... whose power supply weighs about twice as much as the RMC-1's remote control. The working parts in a modern processor are not especially large or heavy... and making them larger and heavier doesn't improve their performance. (That sort of thinking had some basis in facts with some vintage audio gear... especially amplifiers... but not much with modern gear...)
This is one of those situations where it's really better if you withhold forming opinions without the requisite engineering background.
Blood tests are actually an excellent example there... They are only useful if you take the correct tests... take them properly... and know how to read them.
Yeah, like when you go to a doctor, if the doctor doesn't do any blood tests to reveal how things are working... as long as you feel ok... measurements and tests done to baselines aren't important. Just be happy that some guy did a review sitting on his couch concluded it sounds better than brand XYZ... that's more important. SQ is subjective, real lab measurements are not. You may think it sounds better, and you can just "think" that.
It's interesting that the measurements seem to all point to a crappy power supply. When you pick up the RMC1 , it's pretty easy to tell there's not much weight to the PSU. When I first lifted it out of the box I nearly hit myself in the face because I was expecting it to weigh so much more, it looked like something from an "The Office" episode.
Well Keith.. You are correct that more weight doesn’t mean it’s better.. But it could still be a bad PSU design in RMC-1 though. Do we have any proof it’s good?
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 25, 2020 15:05:03 GMT -5
Correct, that's why you try and color the sound as little as possible so you only have to deal with speakers and the room. Also cables do nothing, good placebo though. That certainly is one approach, and if so, what's the cutoff for a maximum acceptable amount of coloration? What tool and technique are you measuring coloration with? What's the coloration unit of measure? Which dimensions? Frequency? Amplitude? Harmonics? Tone? All of them? Some of them?
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koeitje
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Post by koeitje on Feb 25, 2020 15:08:46 GMT -5
Yeah, like when you go to a doctor, if the doctor doesn't do any blood tests to reveal how things are working... as long as you feel ok... measurements and tests done to baselines aren't important. Just be happy that some guy did a review sitting on his couch concluded it sounds better than brand XYZ... that's more important. SQ is subjective, real lab measurements are not. You may think it sounds better, and you can just "think" that. That's not how those guys do their reviews. They don't tell you that product A sounds better then product B. But instead, they describe how A sounds compared to B. How is the base, the resolution, clarity, tonality, sound stage etc.? Because they review a lot of stuff, there are also products, which I do know by my own personal experience. By comparing their view with my experience of the same product, I get a pretty good feeling of how to interprete their opinion about a specific product. I don't say in general, that measurements are a bad thing, when developing a product. For example to to make sure, that the new developed product does not have any critical flaws by design. But using measurements to do a product review? Especially if the person doing those measurements (ASR) has a very doubtful method in the industry? Sorry, but you can find tons of discussion boards where people question the methods of ASR. And by my own personal experience, I have heard multiple products that really sound great, but got a terrible review by ASR. So I simply don't care about the opinion of ASR. It failed many times in my eyes (or ears)... so I ignore it. As important measurments for a developer team might be, I don't care about it as an enduser. Sorry, not at all. All I care is how it sounds. As I mentioned earlier: Trusted reviewers help me to decide what products are worth to have a closer look at. But the final decision is on me alone (and my ears). Please enlighten me where it goes wrong. Why do his measurements match those of manufacturers if the way he measures is wrong? Why do his measurements match those of others with AP analyzers? Looking forward to your answer. Measurements are very important from a consumer standpoint, because it shows if device is competently designed with no clear design errors. And just fyi, your ears are the most unreliable tool in determining audio fidelity. You liking them doesn't make them high end or high fidelity. Its fine to apply your own taste in this hobby, but don't presume it has anything do with audio quality. Some are into high fidelity, while you are into my-fi. Nothing wrong with that.
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koeitje
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Post by koeitje on Feb 25, 2020 15:10:45 GMT -5
Correct, that's why you try and color the sound as little as possible so you only have to deal with speakers and the room. Also cables do nothing, good placebo though. That certainly is one approach, and if so, what's the cutoff for a maximum acceptable amount of coloration? What tool and technique are you measuring coloration with? What's the coloration unit of measure? Which dimensions? Frequency? Amplitude? Harmonics? Tone? All of them? Some of them? All of them, because a good D/A converter and amplifier have any issues you could have with those outside of the human audible range. (you have to explain what Tone is though...)
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 25, 2020 15:17:37 GMT -5
All of them, because a good D/A converter and amplifier have any issues you could have with those outside of the human audible range. (you have to explain what Tone is though...) Any more dimensions that should be added? What was the coloration unit of measure again? And the science proving which values are superior? What's the coloration tester? You're problem is you're trying to hammer a subjective result into a fault-less objective approach and that can't be done. Can't be done with food, with drink, with sound, with any of the senses.
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Post by Gerard on Feb 25, 2020 15:24:48 GMT -5
Why is this thread loaded with comments from non-owners. If you are interested with the unit buy it. If you don't like it send it back. Or if it looks too you it's not ready for prime time then don't buy it but stop bitching.
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hi
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Post by hi on Feb 25, 2020 15:29:19 GMT -5
I read the asr review and thought these measurements couldn't be right. According to amir, the rmc is inferior on most points compared to my scarlett 2i2 gen3.
So i plugged the 2i2 on to my rmc (symetric analog) and couldn't see big differences compared to 2i2 without rmc-1. (rightmark aa and rew).
BUT: over hdmi, usb or spdif i got the same results like amir...
Same nasty spikes and thd of 0.00219%
Compared to the 2i2 with a thd of 0.00072% something with the rmc is wrong.
Has the rmc-1 an analog passtruh from analog in to out? Is someting else wrong with syncing inside? Over USB the rmc has sharp dips at about 5.2khz and 16khz. Not over hdmi or analog.
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Post by PaulBe on Feb 25, 2020 15:30:30 GMT -5
Interesting day today. Official day of FW 1.8 release, and the non-owner clown show does a drive by. Have fun kids.
Going back to listening and playing. Sounds great! See ya.
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Post by Mikomill on Feb 25, 2020 15:32:19 GMT -5
Why is this thread loaded with comments from non-owners. If you are interested with the unit buy it. If you don't like it send it back. Or if it looks too you it's not ready for prime time then don't buy it but stop bitching. I couldn't have said it better myself!!!!
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Post by PaulBe on Feb 25, 2020 15:33:01 GMT -5
Why is this thread loaded with comments from non-owners. If you are interested with the unit buy it. If you don't like it send it back. Or if it looks too you it's not ready for prime time then don't buy it but stop bitching. Sure is a lot of litter. Could have been a day of productive feedback.
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Post by alexreusch on Feb 25, 2020 15:36:00 GMT -5
That's not how those guys do their reviews. They don't tell you that product A sounds better then product B. But instead, they describe how A sounds compared to B. How is the base, the resolution, clarity, tonality, sound stage etc.? Because they review a lot of stuff, there are also products, which I do know by my own personal experience. By comparing their view with my experience of the same product, I get a pretty good feeling of how to interprete their opinion about a specific product. I don't say in general, that measurements are a bad thing, when developing a product. For example to to make sure, that the new developed product does not have any critical flaws by design. But using measurements to do a product review? Especially if the person doing those measurements (ASR) has a very doubtful method in the industry? Sorry, but you can find tons of discussion boards where people question the methods of ASR. And by my own personal experience, I have heard multiple products that really sound great, but got a terrible review by ASR. So I simply don't care about the opinion of ASR. It failed many times in my eyes (or ears)... so I ignore it. As important measurments for a developer team might be, I don't care about it as an enduser. Sorry, not at all. All I care is how it sounds. As I mentioned earlier: Trusted reviewers help me to decide what products are worth to have a closer look at. But the final decision is on me alone (and my ears). Please enlighten me where it goes wrong. Why do his measurements match those of manufacturers if the way he measures is wrong? Why do his measurements match those of others with AP analyzers? Looking forward to your answer. Measurements are very important from a consumer standpoint, because it shows if device is competently designed with no clear design errors. And just fyi, your ears are the most unreliable tool in determining audio fidelity. You liking them doesn't make them high end or high fidelity. Its fine to apply your own taste in this hobby, but don't presume it has anything do with audio quality. Some are into high fidelity, while you are into my-fi. Nothing wrong with that. No, I don't have to. There are many forums and board and you have obviously an Internet connection. Go help yourself. Hint: Ever heard of Google? I am sick of Amir's Army of Trolls spamming valuable forums and discussions. "Whohoooooo!!!! Bad measurement by ASR. Your product sucks!" This is total BS. This forum would be better without taking care about Amir and his frenetic followers. And no, I don't care what you think about me, because I judge with my ears and don't care about numbers. Judge about me and talk some more BS, I don't expect anything better from an ASR Troll.
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Post by PaulBe on Feb 25, 2020 15:37:50 GMT -5
Please enlighten me where it goes wrong. Why do his measurements match those of manufacturers if the way he measures is wrong? Why do his measurements match those of others with AP analyzers? Looking forward to your answer. Measurements are very important from a consumer standpoint, because it shows if device is competently designed with no clear design errors. And just fyi, your ears are the most unreliable tool in determining audio fidelity. You liking them doesn't make them high end or high fidelity. Its fine to apply your own taste in this hobby, but don't presume it has anything do with audio quality. Some are into high fidelity, while you are into my-fi. Nothing wrong with that. No, I don't have to. There are many forums and board and you have obviously an Internet connection. Go help yourself. Hint: Ever heard of Google? I am sick of Amir's Army of Trolls spamming valuable forums and discussions. "Whohoooooo!!!! Bad measurement by ASR. Your product sucks!" This is total BS. This forum would be better without taking care about Amir and his frenetic followers. And no, I don't care what you think about me, because I judge with my ears and don't care about numbers. Judge about me and talk some more BS, I don't expect anything better from an ASR Troll. "Amir's Army of Trolls". Sure looks like it.
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richb
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Post by richb on Feb 25, 2020 15:42:14 GMT -5
lonnie has said Emotiva will be posting AP measurements. Hopefully, theses include testing methodology. Once we have that, similar measurements can be compared and, perhaps, enter into a technical discussion. - Rich
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 25, 2020 15:45:01 GMT -5
What kind of proof are you hoping for?
What would you say constitutes "proof that a power supply is good"? (My Asus laptop has been performing perfectly for years, but its power supply would be totally inadequate, in several ways, to run an RMC-1.)
Do you by any chance happen to know the amounts of noise and regulation that are necessary for the other components in an RMC-1 to perform at optimum levels? Meeting or exceeding those levels is what would constitute "being a good power supply for an RMC-1". (And, without knowing those requirements in detail, having actual information about the power supplies in the RMC-1 would be meaningless.)
Lonnie is addressing most of these questions... including some measurements... However I must chime in here... The RMC-1 consumes less power than my big Asus laptop computer... whose power supply weighs about twice as much as the RMC-1's remote control. The working parts in a modern processor are not especially large or heavy... and making them larger and heavier doesn't improve their performance. (That sort of thinking had some basis in facts with some vintage audio gear... especially amplifiers... but not much with modern gear...)
This is one of those situations where it's really better if you withhold forming opinions without the requisite engineering background. Blood tests are actually an excellent example there... They are only useful if you take the correct tests... take them properly... and know how to read them.
Well Keith.. You are correct that more weight doesn’t mean it’s better.. But it could still be a bad PSU design in RMC-1 though. Do we have any proof it’s good?
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Post by megash0n on Feb 25, 2020 16:03:01 GMT -5
Why is this thread loaded with comments from non-owners. If you are interested with the unit buy it. If you don't like it send it back. Or if it looks too you it's not ready for prime time then don't buy it but stop bitching. I'm glad someone said this. I'm growing tired of the bitching as well. Either return it, don't buy it, or love it. All the constant bitching does is keep Emotiva from having more dialogue in fear of constant backlash. We get it... They could do a better job in some areas. Voice your opinion with your wallet. If you think there is a better product, please go buy that product. The leadership at Emotiva is either going to fix their image as a company or their not. I'm pretty frustrated following this community for a couple of years planning to buy this processor, and seeing how long it has taken to address some things, but I still bought it. I'm frustrated with the issues I have, but at the end of the day.. Everytime I listen to music, or watch a movie, I can't believe how incredible the experience was. The pain is worth the experience overall.... For now.
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koeitje
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Post by koeitje on Feb 25, 2020 16:06:27 GMT -5
Please enlighten me where it goes wrong. Why do his measurements match those of manufacturers if the way he measures is wrong? Why do his measurements match those of others with AP analyzers? Looking forward to your answer. Measurements are very important from a consumer standpoint, because it shows if device is competently designed with no clear design errors. And just fyi, your ears are the most unreliable tool in determining audio fidelity. You liking them doesn't make them high end or high fidelity. Its fine to apply your own taste in this hobby, but don't presume it has anything do with audio quality. Some are into high fidelity, while you are into my-fi. Nothing wrong with that. No, I don't have to. There are many forums and board and you have obviously an Internet connection. Go help yourself. Hint: Ever heard of Google? I am sick of Amir's Army of Trolls spamming valuable forums and discussions. "Whohoooooo!!!! Bad measurement by ASR. Your product sucks!" This is total BS. This forum would be better without taking care about Amir and his frenetic followers. And no, I don't care what you think about me, because I judge with my ears and don't care about numbers. Judge about me and talk some more BS, I don't expect anything better from an ASR Troll. I've mainly seen comments from internet trolls that try to attack him, yet pretty much everybody with an audio analyzer confirms his results. This includes manufacturers of gear he measured.
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Post by mikoz on Feb 25, 2020 16:07:58 GMT -5
Lonnie is addressing most of these questions... including some measurements...
However I must chime in here... The RMC-1 consumes less power than my big Asus laptop computer... whose power supply weighs about twice as much as the RMC-1's remote control. The working parts in a modern processor are not especially large or heavy... and making them larger and heavier doesn't improve their performance. (That sort of thinking had some basis in facts with some vintage audio gear... especially amplifiers... but not much with modern gear...)
This is one of those situations where it's really better if you withhold forming opinions without the requisite engineering background.
Blood tests are actually an excellent example there... They are only useful if you take the correct tests... take them properly... and know how to read them.
Yeah, like when you go to a doctor, if the doctor doesn't do any blood tests to reveal how things are working... as long as you feel ok... measurements and tests done to baselines aren't important. Just be happy that some guy did a review sitting on his couch concluded it sounds better than brand XYZ... that's more important. SQ is subjective, real lab measurements are not. You may think it sounds better, and you can just "think" that.
It's interesting that the measurements seem to all point to a crappy power supply. When you pick up the RMC1 , it's pretty easy to tell there's not much weight to the PSU. When I first lifted it out of the box I nearly hit myself in the face because I was expecting it to weigh so much more, it looked like something from an "The Office" episode.
THD and SNR are CBC and a metabolic panel.... everyone wants to know what's going on there, they are two of the basic things everyone will look at, even if you're not complaining about any issues. Every single person who makes a measurement on a piece of audio home equipment that outputs an analog signal will be making these measurements. Yes, there are obviously conditions to the measurements. The frequency chosen in the experiment was well within the human range. If you don't agree with it, then consider the relative nature compared to other products, even other Emotiva products. It's far easier to work in a world where you can compare relative measurements on the same setup by the same person when trying to gauge performance differences for basic audio measurements.
While I agree that weight isn't everything, a light supply *can* indicate lack of proper filtering and PDN to maintain the load. But, the spectrum of the noise and the di/dt performance is all-telling. Easy way to get everyone here happy, post the numbers using a spectrum analyzer (and your settings) of the supply under peak load.
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