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Post by bblv on May 18, 2020 2:32:57 GMT -5
Anyone else have substantial volume differences when switching between Dolby surround, Direct, All Stereo and DTS Neural X modes? Haven’t measured the difference yet, but it’s got to be 10+ db for me... Direct is much higher than all other modes.
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Post by markc on May 18, 2020 2:46:27 GMT -5
I’m messing around with my PC and RMC-1 and I’m trying to understand how to set them up using MC JRiver 24. I see the setting under setup as USB but there’s an option for UAC2. I would strongly advocate using HDMI for JRiver or other HTPC output, using the standard WASAPI driver in JRiver's audio options (WASAPI uses direct PC hardware output and bypasses Windows audio processing without the sometimes troublesome issues that ASIO can cause) Set Jriver to Bitstream if you want the RMC-1 to show the original codec (DTS-HD MA etc) on the OSD and in order to use the RMC-1 DTS and Dolby upmixers for height / Atmos channels The only thing you can't do via HDMI from a PC is DSD direct (You can get some super expensive add-on cards where the HDMI processor enables DSD direct, but none of the usual graphics adapters - Intel, Nvidia or AMD do) A HTPC (And using JRiver Media Center or other software) can output DSD in a DOP carrier signal, but unfortunately the Emotiva processors don't decode DOP (Stereo or Multichannel possible over HDMI). Incidentally, USB audio that you mention CAN transmit Stereo DSD, but again this is not (yet) enabled in the XMC-2 or RMC-1 processors, although Keith has said it is being worked on) For me, I ripped all my SACD to .dff DSDIFF edit masters (Using a PS3) and a lot of these are multichannel so USB audio is never going to help me there. If you are going to use USB, definitely use the UAC2 option as it has higher bandwidth and both the RMC-1 and modern PC hardware supports it |
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Post by geebo on May 18, 2020 6:54:45 GMT -5
Anyone else have substantial volume differences when switching between Dolby surround, Direct, All Stereo and DTS Neural X modes? Haven’t measured the difference yet, but it’s got to be 10+ db for me... Direct is much higher than all other modes. Are you running firmware 1.10? |
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 18, 2020 7:24:28 GMT -5
Anyone else have substantial volume differences when switching between Dolby surround, Direct, All Stereo and DTS Neural X modes? Haven’t measured the difference yet, but it’s got to be 10+ db for me... Direct is much higher than all other modes. Are you running firmware 1.10? Always the first question, yours prompted me to add it to my signature as: RMC-1v1.10 . Though it will be something that has to be updated, maybe it will help us troubleshoot each other faster. |
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Lonnie
Emo Staff 
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Post by Lonnie on May 18, 2020 7:55:26 GMT -5
We have no specific plans to change the output levels on the RMC-1... although they will be slightly different depending on the level of the input signal and certain trim settings.
As long as you are able to set the output level you want it simply does not matter whether the dial reads "40" or "80" when you do so.
"50" is NOT "half volume"..... it simply corresponds to whatever arbitrary gain level the designers have chosen for it to correspond with. (A simple setting of "50" is totally arbitrary... while a setting of "-50 dB" is a specific proportion of whatever "0 dB reference level" has been chosen...)
Thanks for the reply, Keith. I'm just a little concerned that I might start getting into clipping at 75-80%. I used a Klark Teknik gate/expander with a Rotel, (used just the expander and it's XLR in and out), that had the same issue and thinking I might go the same route. By the way, the RMC-1 sounds far better than the Marantz and haven't had my Oppo to try just yet. It's getting yet another modification. My Oppo gets more frequent flyer points than me! Congrats on the RMC-1 by the way and can't wait to see what you have in stall for it down the road. Oh trust me, you will not go into clipping.  . Our analog output stage can di 12 volts differentially before it clips. Even a low gain amp will run into clipping at around 2 volts RMS, 4 volts peak. So you have all the dynamic headroom you could ever use. Lonnie |
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Post by megash0n on May 18, 2020 11:10:18 GMT -5
Anyone else have substantial volume differences when switching between Dolby surround, Direct, All Stereo and DTS Neural X modes? Haven’t measured the difference yet, but it’s got to be 10+ db for me... Direct is much higher than all other modes. There are definitely inconsistencies. Another thing is the massive difference between something like a HTPC bit streaming audio out verses something like an Hulu or Netflix on an Xbox. When watching a movie, with the same codec, on my HTPC, I'll be between -12 to -18 depending on codec. On the Xbox apps, I'm between -28 to -34. This is why the whole Dolby dialnorm issue annoys the hell out of me. What is the point when experiencing what I said above? In reference to the levels though, I'm still having to listen at -12 if I use the DTS upmixer. I personally think the upmixer sounds thin even on 1.10. I use "Surround" For DTS tracks. DTS-X seems improved, but needs around a -14 on my system. Dolby tracks are typically -16 to -18. All of these examples are based on HTPC movie watching with all emotiva gear. Listening to Amazon HD, from the same PC, (PCM) I'm around a -25 for similar perceived output. |
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Post by megash0n on May 18, 2020 11:17:34 GMT -5
I’m messing around with my PC and RMC-1 and I’m trying to understand how to set them up using MC JRiver 24. I see the setting under setup as USB but there’s an option for UAC2. I would strongly advocate using HDMI for JRiver or other HTPC output, using the standard WASAPI driver in JRiver's audio options (WASAPI uses direct PC hardware output and bypasses Windows audio processing without the sometimes troublesome issues that ASIO can cause) Set Jriver to Bitstream if you want the RMC-1 to show the original codec (DTS-HD MA etc) on the OSD and in order to use the RMC-1 DTS and Dolby upmixers for height / Atmos channels The only thing you can't do via HDMI from a PC is DSD direct (You can get some super expensive add-on cards where the HDMI processor enables DSD direct, but none of the usual graphics adapters - Intel, Nvidia or AMD do) A HTPC (And using JRiver Media Center or other software) can output DSD in a DOP carrier signal, but unfortunately the Emotiva processors don't decode DOP (Stereo or Multichannel possible over HDMI). Incidentally, USB audio that you mention CAN transmit Stereo DSD, but again this is not (yet) enabled in the XMC-2 or RMC-1 processors, although Keith has said it is being worked on) For me, I ripped all my SACD to .dff DSDIFF edit masters (Using a PS3) and a lot of these are multichannel so USB audio is never going to help me there. If you are going to use USB, definitely use the UAC2 option as it has higher bandwidth and both the RMC-1 and modern PC hardware supports it The bitstream options don't include PCM though. But, I agree that HDMI makes most since. Jriver does still use exclusive mode for PCM if I'm not mistaken. Using USB, to me, is just too much trouble. You can edit your audio settings to default an app to use a specific audio solution. For example, jriver uses USB. But, then if you want to use HDMI for movies, you have to override it. It's too much headache imo. |
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Post by bblv on May 18, 2020 11:24:26 GMT -5
Anyone else have substantial volume differences when switching between Dolby surround, Direct, All Stereo and DTS Neural X modes? Haven’t measured the difference yet, but it’s got to be 10+ db for me... Direct is much higher than all other modes. Are you running firmware 1.10? Yes |
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Post by bblv on May 18, 2020 11:26:00 GMT -5
Anyone else have substantial volume differences when switching between Dolby surround, Direct, All Stereo and DTS Neural X modes? Haven’t measured the difference yet, but it’s got to be 10+ db for me... Direct is much higher than all other modes. There are definitely inconsistencies. Another thing is the massive difference between something like a HTPC bit streaming audio out verses something like an Hulu or Netflix on an Xbox. When watching a movie, with the same codec, on my HTPC, I'll be between -12 to -18 depending on codec. On the Xbox apps, I'm between -28 to -34. This is why the whole Dolby dialnorm issue annoys the hell out of me. What is the point when experiencing what I said above? In reference to the levels though, I'm still having to listen at -12 if I use the DTS upmixer. I personally think the upmixer sounds thin even on 1.10. I use "Surround" For DTS tracks. DTS-X seems improved, but needs around a -14 on my system. Dolby tracks are typically -16 to -18. All of these examples are based on HTPC movie watching with all emotiva gear. Listening to Amazon HD, from the same PC, (PCM) I'm around a -25 for similar perceived output. I was playing around with different modes last night at reference levels and when I switched to Direct mode I’ll just say the pucker factor was real as I fumbled for the volume down button in the dark 😂 |
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Post by megash0n on May 18, 2020 11:30:33 GMT -5
There are definitely inconsistencies. Another thing is the massive difference between something like a HTPC bit streaming audio out verses something like an Hulu or Netflix on an Xbox. When watching a movie, with the same codec, on my HTPC, I'll be between -12 to -18 depending on codec. On the Xbox apps, I'm between -28 to -34. This is why the whole Dolby dialnorm issue annoys the hell out of me. What is the point when experiencing what I said above? In reference to the levels though, I'm still having to listen at -12 if I use the DTS upmixer. I personally think the upmixer sounds thin even on 1.10. I use "Surround" For DTS tracks. DTS-X seems improved, but needs around a -14 on my system. Dolby tracks are typically -16 to -18. All of these examples are based on HTPC movie watching with all emotiva gear. Listening to Amazon HD, from the same PC, (PCM) I'm around a -25 for similar perceived output. I was playing around with different modes last night at reference levels and when I switched to Direct mode I’ll just say the pucker factor was real as I fumbled for the volume down button in the dark 😂 hahaha.. I've definitely made the wife jump as well. |
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Post by megash0n on May 18, 2020 11:35:48 GMT -5
There are definitely inconsistencies. Another thing is the massive difference between something like a HTPC bit streaming audio out verses something like an Hulu or Netflix on an Xbox. When watching a movie, with the same codec, on my HTPC, I'll be between -12 to -18 depending on codec. On the Xbox apps, I'm between -28 to -34. This is why the whole Dolby dialnorm issue annoys the hell out of me. What is the point when experiencing what I said above? In reference to the levels though, I'm still having to listen at -12 if I use the DTS upmixer. I personally think the upmixer sounds thin even on 1.10. I use "Surround" For DTS tracks. DTS-X seems improved, but needs around a -14 on my system. Dolby tracks are typically -16 to -18. All of these examples are based on HTPC movie watching with all emotiva gear. Listening to Amazon HD, from the same PC, (PCM) I'm around a -25 for similar perceived output. I was playing around with different modes last night at reference levels and when I switched to Direct mode I’ll just say the pucker factor was real as I fumbled for the volume down button in the dark 😂 I don't use Direct mode because I want the extra processing. But, if you think about it, why would Direct be "louder"? Isn't this telling in some way that there is an imbalance? I used the word inconsistent. This really isn't the best word because what I experience is consistent. It's just that different codecs have different levels of output. I don't experience the same with my Marantz. The delta is much closer. |
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Post by dimora on May 18, 2020 11:37:36 GMT -5
Info like that available on their website would certainly help. As is, their website is a very pretty site with a lot of pretty pictures and links that lead to more pretty pictures...and overall, it's a "very shallow pool". I've given them feedback on that before, but it just stays the same. Mark Gotta sell the sizzle, not the steak. Dirac's biggest accomplishment is telling everyone how wonderful they are. If you don't have the steak, you can't have the sizzle. We have no DIRAC at all - which means no steak for you! Come back - one year!  |
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Post by geebo on May 18, 2020 11:40:35 GMT -5
I was playing around with different modes last night at reference levels and when I switched to Direct mode I’ll just say the pucker factor was real as I fumbled for the volume down button in the dark 😂 I don't use Direct mode because I want the extra processing. But, if you think about it, why would Direct be "louder"? Isn't this telling in some way that there is an imbalance? I used the word inconsistent. This really isn't the best word because what I experience is consistent. It's just that different codecs have different levels of output. I don't experience the same with my Marantz. The delta is much closer. With 1.10 I've not noticed any appreciable difference in CODEC volume. I've not tried Direct but I will try tonight. |
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Post by dukesd on May 18, 2020 11:42:32 GMT -5
I can't get HDMI CEC Volume working again. On FW1.9 I could power down the RMC with the rear switch and it would come back, not anymore. Power works but Volume doesn't when trying to use the TV or AppleTV remote to change volume.
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Post by megash0n on May 18, 2020 11:46:39 GMT -5
I don't use Direct mode because I want the extra processing. But, if you think about it, why would Direct be "louder"? Isn't this telling in some way that there is an imbalance? I used the word inconsistent. This really isn't the best word because what I experience is consistent. It's just that different codecs have different levels of output. I don't experience the same with my Marantz. The delta is much closer. With 1.10 I not notice any appreciable difference in CODEC volume. I've not tried Direct but I will try tonight. It's weird how we all have different experiences. |
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Post by Gerard on May 18, 2020 12:24:57 GMT -5
I am sure this was addressed many pages back but I have not been able to follow the thread as I usually do.
What were the fixes/Updates in FW 1.10?
thank you
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Post by bblv on May 18, 2020 12:29:01 GMT -5
I am sure this was addressed many pages back but I have not been able to follow the thread as I usually do. What were the fixes/Updates in FW 1.10? thank you Too vast to list (Emo’s words). Basically full rewrite of the code, subwoofer PEQ filters now working, huge improvement in menu and switching speeds, overall better stability. Plus the baseline code for the upcoming Dirac implementation. |
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Post by foggy1956 on May 18, 2020 14:44:34 GMT -5
I would strongly advocate using HDMI for JRiver or other HTPC output, using the standard WASAPI driver in JRiver's audio options (WASAPI uses direct PC hardware output and bypasses Windows audio processing without the sometimes troublesome issues that ASIO can cause) Set Jriver to Bitstream if you want the RMC-1 to show the original codec (DTS-HD MA etc) on the OSD and in order to use the RMC-1 DTS and Dolby upmixers for height / Atmos channels The only thing you can't do via HDMI from a PC is DSD direct (You can get some super expensive add-on cards where the HDMI processor enables DSD direct, but none of the usual graphics adapters - Intel, Nvidia or AMD do) A HTPC (And using JRiver Media Center or other software) can output DSD in a DOP carrier signal, but unfortunately the Emotiva processors don't decode DOP (Stereo or Multichannel possible over HDMI). Incidentally, USB audio that you mention CAN transmit Stereo DSD, but again this is not (yet) enabled in the XMC-2 or RMC-1 processors, although Keith has said it is being worked on) For me, I ripped all my SACD to .dff DSDIFF edit masters (Using a PS3) and a lot of these are multichannel so USB audio is never going to help me there. If you are going to use USB, definitely use the UAC2 option as it has higher bandwidth and both the RMC-1 and modern PC hardware supports it The bitstream options don't include PCM though. But, I agree that HDMI makes most since. Jriver does still use exclusive mode for PCM if I'm not mistaken. Using USB, to me, is just too much trouble. You can edit your audio settings to default an app to use a specific audio solution. For example, jriver uses USB. But, then if you want to use HDMI for movies, you have to override it. It's too much headache imo. I concur, hdmi is the way to go. I use jriver for both music and movies, why even toy with usb? |
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Post by libranrabbit on May 18, 2020 15:51:04 GMT -5
With older analog gear, there was often an increase of distortion near the top of the Volume control range, because of the distortion curve of the circuitry itself... And, with a lot of older equipment, because there was a lot of excess gain, it was often quite possible to cause distortion and clipping long before the control was all the way up... However, in most cases, the reason this occurred was that the output level actually exceeded the capabilities of the circuitry handling the signal.
The RMC-1 can deliver an output level well over 4V before clipping... which is more than enough to drive almost any consumer amplifier well past full power. And, until you actually exceed this level, its distortion will remain very low. (So it's really unlikely that you'll get your RMC-1 to clip or distort before its output level is high enough to drive your amp to full power.)
So don't worry about it...  Thanks for the reply, Keith. I'm just a little concerned that I might start getting into clipping at 75-80%. I used a Klark Teknik gate/expander with a Rotel, (used just the expander and it's XLR in and out), that had the same issue and thinking I might go the same route. By the way, the RMC-1 sounds far better than the Marantz and haven't had my Oppo to try just yet. It's getting yet another modification. My Oppo gets more frequent flyer points than me! Congrats on the RMC-1 by the way and can't wait to see what you have in stall for it down the road. I’m driving Mackie HR824’s, HR626 and HRS150’s, being all active, the RMC goes straight to them. I don’t any any amps. Thanks Keith, for clearing that up for me. |
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Post by markc on May 18, 2020 15:54:47 GMT -5
With 1.10 I not notice any appreciable difference in CODEC volume. I've not tried Direct but I will try tonight. It's weird how we all have different experiences. megash0n, you were the first to raise this issue. it is a real problem, possibly only in systems with more than 5.1 speakers, as with 5.1 sources, there is no need for any expansion and DTS Neural X is never forcibly triggered to upmix my XMC-2 arrived today (same platform as RMC models so it’s absolutely valid to post here, however I think this issue needs its own thread and a response from Emotiva) As part of setting my XMC-2 up this afternoon, (which was pleasantly familiar having had an XMC-1 for 5 years), the glaring issue with the DTS Neural X codec became a problem. 1) it is not just a volume issue. It introduces mixing issues. Listening to Adele Live at The Royal Albert Hall The front L&R & centre develop a reverb echo with Neural X. It is glaringly obvious and nasty. (Why Adele, you ask? No reason other than her crystal clear vocal in the centre channel and it’s Very much easier to hear the distortion / reverb problem with music and whilst being absolutely inescapable it becomes utterly intolerable with music). Switching from Direct or Surround modes while listening (which both sound exactly the same as each other and are also Reassuringly comparable to the stereo track upmixed using the Dolby Surround upmixer) to DTS Neural X, it is clear that the Neural X decoding is the odd man out and doing bad things. Neural X, which is also chosen by default in the "Auto" mode unfortunately, causes the volume to drop by more than 4dB and possibly 6dB and also introduces the reverb echo across the front speakers. Turning up the volume is not going to sort this issue. An upmixer from 5.1 to 7.1 should do nothing to the established LCR channels. 2) The real problem is that it is almost impossible to escape using DTS Neural X. After MUCH experimentation going from DTS videos to Dolby to PCM stereo to DTS-HD to Atmos, and back again, in all sorts of combinations, it keeps getting re-enacted! The ONLY way to avoid Neural X auto-engaging (and ruining the sound) is, in the setup, input menus, selecting "Direct" as the preferred decoder for 5.1 If you select Auto then, Neural X is selected for all 5.1 and 7.1 DTS, whether 24/96, DTS, DTS-HD, DTS-HD MA and DTS-X If you select Surround, then it is fine for a time, but after playing a DTS-X or Atmos encoded track, it returns to using the Neural X decoder by default when you play a movie with DTS. This is because the DTS-X and Atmos sources cannot use the other Surround modes and forcibly enable the Atmos decoder/DTS X encoder. After dropping back to a regular DTS source, Neural X is unfortunately engaged again. By selecting ‘Direct" as the preferred 5.1 decoder, 5.1 sources stay 5.1 (Dolby and DTS), 7.1 stays 7.1 and most importantly, Atmos decoder is not engaged for Atmos tracks, which, firstly, I don’t need in a 7.1 system, and more importantly, it doesn’t force the XMC-2 back into Surround or Auto mode for subsequent movies, so the Neural X decoder stays disabled. However, I now have silent rear channels when playing DTS or Dolby 5.1 sources so this is not an ideal or desirable option. There is no such problem with the Dolby Surround Upmixer. It correctly gives 7.1 output from 7.1 and 5.1 sources without changing sound character or volume. To clarify: I have a 7.1 system. For 7.1 sources, I shouldn’t need any upmixer so "Surround" or "Direct" would be fine. For 5.1 sources I would like the R&L Side Surrounds to be upmixed to the R&L Rear Surrounds. This works with the Dolby Surround Upmixer. This was automatic and a mandatory part of the original DTS decoder specification. In a 7.1 system you could not prevent 5.1 being upmixed to 7.1 for DTS sources and this certainly occurred with the XMC-1 as I had some DTS 5.1 surround music that I converted to 5.1 flac to avoid the usual and normal behaviour of the DTS mandatory upmixing to 7.1. (Not a problem with live concert recordings as the side surrounds usually just have reverb and audience noise, but in studio-mixed 5.1 tracks the instrument and vocal placement got obscured in the 5.1 to 7.1 upmix.. As an afterthought, I am also bi-amping the Front L&R using the bi-amp settings in the XMC-2 Front Width channels. Could this be being incorrectly interpreted by the Neural X decoder as me having Front Width speakers and hence the reverb/echo effect on engaging Neural X??? |
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