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Post by rbk123 on Dec 3, 2018 14:52:39 GMT -5
The whole point is that, if you already own an XMC-1, and you decide you want Atmos, but you also want the sound quality that was the reason you bought the XMC-1 in the first place. Then upgrading your XMC-1 is going to cost you a lot less than buying a whole new product, which includes Atmos, but also matches the sound quality of the XMC-1. Nope, I'm purely talking apples to apples. So upgrading an XMC without Atmos vs. a new XMC with Atmos (XMC2?; RMC2?) or an AVM60 or a Marantz 880X, etc..; All are going to be very similar sonically or even superior to the XMC-1 and after selling the XMC-1 and buying one of them, the net is going to be similar to $1k. In addition when doing this you get newer design/chip/etc and a new warranty. All have value that should be included in the equation, but I haven't even added those into the math.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 3, 2018 15:10:48 GMT -5
You may not realize it, but the software that operates a device like the XMC-1 is far from simple, and is in fact several different pieces of software working together. For example, the Linux-based operating system on the XMC-1 operates with and controls the software on several DSP engines, as well as controlling a bunch of hardware. And, in order to do each of those things properly, it requires specific amounts of various resources, and a certain amount of processing power. Because of this, you cannot "just throw a few more programs on it"... and assume they will work well and not compromise the performance in other areas.
Changing the spelling on a menu item is relatively simple... but adding more software modules, which must work with everything that's already running, without adversely affecting any of it, is not simple. (And, to put it bluntly, the higher the level of performance you expect from everything else, the more critical this stuff becomes.)
Then there is the issue of software development and updates. There are lots of streaming services, each one of which has their own app, which they update from time to time. So, if we were to support two or three of the most popular streaming services, we would disappoint a lot of people who prefer one of the others... And, if we were to include a whole bunch of them, then we'd have to keep all that software up-to-date, make sure the updates work right for each one, and that none of them cause problems anywhere else. And let's not forget supporting all of them.
That's not simple at all... in fact it's a pretty major project.
A device like a Roku box is much simpler... It specializes in doing one thing, so it doesn't really have to worry about that feature interfering with other things...
And, although it offers a lot of different streaming solutions, which require a lot of work to keep updated, they sell a lot of those little boxes... so that cost is spread over a lot of customers.
From our point of view, it's much easier and simpler to let someone like Roku do all that work...
They're quite good at it; they have economies of scale on their side; and, when that Roku is finally obsolete, you just toss it in the bin, and buy this year's model for $100.
Perhaps your old Denon, even though it did a lot less stuff, actually did a few things very well... Or maybe it was just configured wrong and over-boosted the center channel... and, by a lucky coincidence, that happened to work out well for you... I had an old car for years that drove really well...... but it got lousy mileage, didn't have power windows, and its air conditioner wasn't great at all....
In this case, the ideal solution would be to add a dedicated processor, used just for handling streaming. Since it had a dedicated processor, it wouldn't interfere with the functions of any of the other processors, and would have its own software. And, since the software aspect of it is pretty complicated, it would be updated and supported by a dedicated group of programmers and software developers.
Luckily for you that option is available... it doesn't cost much... and there are even several different ones to choose from.
You can purchase it from Roku, or Apple TV, or Amazon.... and it connects right to one of those handy - and quite standard - HDMI ports on the XMC-1 or the RMC-1. (And, from what I hear, it's one of the cheapest and most useful "upgrades" you can add to your XMC-1.)
Not owning either Marantz of XMC and juggling the same questions, I made one observation. Emo intended to make a product that excels at basic HT pre/pro functions. The other manufacturers pack-in so many other functions trying to out-do the other. Emotiva lacks some features that cause me to scratch my head. For Emotiva not to include streaming a very simple feature is mind boggling. Nothing else needed but more code programmed into it's Linux software. In today's world, it's a must have, no excuse for not doing it. How much would a programmable/smart remote add to the units cost? XMC-1 @ $2000 was a fair price. The XMC-2 with less flexibility for a grand more...really? My wife made an observation a couple weeks ago, "Why did the Denon AVR-5700 (2000 model with less processing power and older technology) have a better center dialogue than either the UMC-200 and Integra DTR50.4?" (both running through XPA-5) I have no answer.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 3, 2018 15:29:55 GMT -5
Obviously I'm biased.... but then so are most of us. "Similar performance" is an over-simplified term... and means different things to different people.
I've spoken to many people who've had the opportunity to compare our XMC-1 to products from competitors which supposedly had "similar performance". Some of them said that they really didn't notice much difference. But most of them agreed that, when it came to sound quality, the XMC-1 was clearly superior.
In fact, more than a few of them claim to have actually been shocked at how much better the XMC-1 sounded than some supposedly comparable product. You might be even more surprised how many times we've heard from customers who replaced a far more expensive product from one of our competitors with an XMC-1... Only to discover that the XMC-1 sounded, not "just as good", as they'd hoped, but "obviously and significantly better".
And, yes, of course I'm biased... (I work for Emotiva AND I have an XMC-1 in my living room. ) And it's probably fair to say that most of our happy customers are also biased (whether they started out that way or not)... But, then, I would suggest that anyone who claims that two pieces of equipment "have similar performance", without actually listening to both of them, is also just a bit biased as well.
(If you really think you can find something better, for a similar or lower price, then why wouldn't you buy it?)
I agree with you entirely - however you also need to keep things in perspective - and keep your priorities in mind. You can currently buy an AVR for less than $1000 that has Atmos (I see several listed for below $500). In fact, you can buy a new AVR every couple of years - and be assured that you'll always have the latest collection of features that are popular that year.
However, it's not going to match the SOUND QUALITY of the XMC-1. The whole point is that, if you already own an XMC-1, and you decide you want Atmos, but you also want the sound quality that was the reason you bought the XMC-1 in the first place... Then upgrading your XMC-1 is going to cost you a lot less than buying a whole new product, which includes Atmos, but also matches the sound quality of the XMC-1.
I don’t think he was looking at entry level avr’s. One could sell an xmc, use that money plus $1000 and have an up to date piece with similar performance. While the xmc is very nice, it’s NOT the greatest piece in its price bracket. So while your response is certainly valid it’s HIGHLY biased.
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Post by emofrmcgy on Dec 3, 2018 17:03:44 GMT -5
Obviously I'm biased.... but then so are most of us. "Similar performance" is an over-simplified term... and means different things to different people.
I've spoken to many people who've had the opportunity to compare our XMC-1 to products from competitors which supposedly had "similar performance". Some of them said that they really didn't notice much difference. But most of them agreed that, when it came to sound quality, the XMC-1 was clearly superior.
In fact, more than a few of them claim to have actually been shocked at how much better the XMC-1 sounded than some supposedly comparable product. You might be even more surprised how many times we've heard from customers who replaced a far more expensive product from one of our competitors with an XMC-1... Only to discover that the XMC-1 sounded, not "just as good", as they'd hoped, but "obviously and significantly better".
And, yes, of course I'm biased... (I work for Emotiva AND I have an XMC-1 in my living room. ) And it's probably fair to say that most of our happy customers are also biased (whether they started out that way or not)... But, then, I would suggest that anyone who claims that two pieces of equipment "have similar performance", without actually listening to both of them, is also just a bit biased as well.
(If you really think you can find something better, for a similar or lower price, then why wouldn't you buy it?)
I don’t think he was looking at entry level avr’s. One could sell an xmc, use that money plus $1000 and have an up to date piece with similar performance. While the xmc is very nice, it’s NOT the greatest piece in its price bracket. So while your response is certainly valid it’s HIGHLY biased. LOL, I did own an xmc. And sold it for a similar priced Avm60 that is easily on par with it and offers the features I need. And I’m never surprised by the response of some of the emo fans in your world.
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Post by musicfan on Dec 3, 2018 18:00:28 GMT -5
This thread has become comical.
I have had the Xmc-1. Did it sound great? Yup
But not good enough to give up atmos
So say what you want about it. It’s not worth the asking price at this point
I’ll be getting (tomorrow) a new unit that cost HALF of what the xmc costs. Will include Dirac. Can do atmos. Is modular And by all Accounts i have read sounds phenomenal. (I can only be the judge of that)
Stop Making the xmc out to be more than it is. An outdated (for now)great sounding processor. That’s it. Honestly not hard to find that these days and probably for less
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Post by rbk123 on Dec 3, 2018 19:14:32 GMT -5
And it's probably fair to say that most of our happy customers are also biased (whether they started out that way or not)...But, then, I would suggest that anyone who claims that two pieces of equipment "have similar performance", without actually listening to both of them, is also just a bit biased as well. I agree and my point was NOT about the XMC = "similar products", my point was simply math, so let me try again. Let's assume nothing equals the XMC and I must stay within the Emo family. If the XMC-2 sells for $2.5k, I can sell my XMC-1 + $1k for that. Now I have a brand new product, with whatever improvements it has AND a full warranty. I'm out of pocket the same money had I spent the $1k to upgrade my XMC-1. Let's say the XMC2 or RMC2 come in at $3k, now it'll cost me ~$500+ more over the upgrade - but wait: say I use my 25% off UFL. Now the new processor(s) are actually less expensive AND have full warranty, since I can't use my UFL discount on the XMC-1 upgrade. Ok, what if I am not a UFL member? Well, I won't have to wait long and I'm sure I can get a gently used XMC2/RMC2 for the cost of me selling my XMC-1 + $1k. My point is, modular is great if it's cost effective. That's not the case with the XMC-1 enhancements, or other processors that were also modular.
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Post by creimes on Dec 3, 2018 19:47:40 GMT -5
This thread has become comical. I have had the Xmc-1. Did it sound great? Yup But not good enough to give up atmos So say what you want about it. It’s not worth the asking price at this point I’ll be getting (tomorrow) a new unit that cost HALF of what the xmc costs. Will include Dirac. Can do atmos. Is modular And by all Accounts i have read sounds phenomenal. (I can only be the judge of that) Stop Making the xmc out to be more than it is. An outdated (for now)great sounding processor. That’s it. Honestly not hard to find that these days and probably for less Just don't forget that not everyone wants Atmos or whatever the next big format will be, I don't have a room large enough for that many speakers, so say what you want about Atmos and the XMC-1 not having it but for one I myself could care less as many others, I will agree that the price of the XMC-1(new) is a bit steep, the gap from the MC-700 to it as too much IMO, but heck that's why I bought used, actually the last new processor I purchased was a UMC-1 back in like 2010 haha.
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Post by stads77 on Dec 3, 2018 20:27:38 GMT -5
This thread has become comical. I have had the Xmc-1. Did it sound great? Yup But not good enough to give up atmos So say what you want about it. It’s not worth the asking price at this point I’ll be getting (tomorrow) a new unit that cost HALF of what the xmc costs. Will include Dirac. Can do atmos. Is modular And by all Accounts i have read sounds phenomenal. (I can only be the judge of that) Stop Making the xmc out to be more than it is. An outdated (for now)great sounding processor. That’s it. Honestly not hard to find that these days and probably for less Just don't forget that not everyone wants Atmos or whatever the next big format will be, I don't have a room large enough for that many speakers, so say what you want about Atmos and the XMC-1 not having it but for one I myself could care less as many others, I will agree that the price of the XMC-1(new) is a bit steep, the gap from the MC-700 to it as too much IMO, but heck that's why I bought used, actually the last new processor I purchased was a UMC-1 back in like 2010 haha. Me too!, back when it was $399 and came with an upgrade card you could sell for $200, which is now worth $800-1500, lol. Those were the good old days of Emotiva
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Post by emofrmcgy on Dec 3, 2018 20:54:09 GMT -5
This thread has become comical. I have had the Xmc-1. Did it sound great? Yup But not good enough to give up atmos So say what you want about it. It’s not worth the asking price at this point I’ll be getting (tomorrow) a new unit that cost HALF of what the xmc costs. Will include Dirac. Can do atmos. Is modular And by all Accounts i have read sounds phenomenal. (I can only be the judge of that) Stop Making the xmc out to be more than it is. An outdated (for now)great sounding processor. That’s it. Honestly not hard to find that these days and probably for less Just don't forget that not everyone wants Atmos or whatever the next big format will be, I don't have a room large enough for that many speakers, so say what you want about Atmos and the XMC-1 not having it but for one I myself could care less as many others, I will agree that the price of the XMC-1(new) is a bit steep, the gap from the MC-700 to it as too much IMO, but heck that's why I bought used, actually the last new processor I purchased was a UMC-1 back in like 2010 haha. Yeah you’re right. There’s not a prepro under $4998 that sounds better than the xmc. Maybe we can just buy a separate device to add into the signal chain that’ll do atmos for us. Possibly roku or apple will release an atmos add on we can use with the xmc. At least this way it’ll actually work.
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Post by Bonzo on Dec 3, 2018 20:58:12 GMT -5
For $2500 one could get a used Marantz 8802a AND an XSP-1, and get a LOT more than an XMC-1 by itself. Just sayin'. But then again I don't care about room correction.
The XMC-2 has been implied by Emotiva to cost $3000 when it comes out. Its got less inputs and outputs than the XMC-1, but adds 4 height channels (very important} and the center channel is now fully balanced (who in the hell cares about that I don't even want to know). In my opinion, if the XMC-2 cost $2000, it would be a killer. At $3000, its not even on my radar. At the very most it should be $2500.
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Post by adaboy on Dec 3, 2018 21:10:35 GMT -5
For $2500 one could get a used Marantz 8802a AND an XSP-1, and get a LOT more than an XMC-1 by itself. Just sayin'. But then again I don't care about room correction. The XMC-2 has been implied by Emotiva to cost $3000 when it comes out. Its got less inputs and outputs than the XMC-1, but adds 4 height channels (very important} and the center channel is now fully balanced (who in the hell cares about that I don't even want to know). In my opinion, if the XMC-2 cost $2000, it would be a killer. At $3000, its not even on my radar. At the very most it should be $2500. I agree, EMO's pre's should not rival the cost of Marantz and other Higher end pre's for WAY less features etc. Lastly if I paid anywhere close to that and my pre was buggy I would lose my mind. My Marantz has been rock solid. I like to install the stuff I use at home, so Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Classe, Jolida, Yamaha etc. Stable, which doesn't upset my clients and doesn't hurt my reputation.
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Post by creimes on Dec 3, 2018 21:16:29 GMT -5
For $2500 one could get a used Marantz 8802a AND an XSP-1, and get a LOT more than an XMC-1 by itself. Just sayin'. But then again I don't care about room correction. The XMC-2 has been implied by Emotiva to cost $3000 when it comes out. Its got less inputs and outputs than the XMC-1, but adds 4 height channels (very important} and the center channel is now fully balanced (who in the hell cares about that I don't even want to know). In my opinion, if the XMC-2 cost $2000, it would be a killer. At $3000, its not even on my radar. At the very most it should be $2500. I can't get both of those up here for that cheap, not in our Canadian dollars haha, I'm too scared to spend that much on a 8802a up here, the 7702 turned me off too much, if I could A/B them in my room would be great but I ain't that rich lol. $4000 up here from Crutchfield www.crutchfield.ca/p_642AV8802A/Marantz-AV8802A.html?awkw=295088347616&awat=pla&awnw=g&awcr=190569397805&awdv=c&awug=9001227
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Post by davidl81 on Dec 3, 2018 21:34:08 GMT -5
For $2500 one could get a used Marantz 8802a AND an XSP-1, and get a LOT more than an XMC-1 by itself. Just sayin'. But then again I don't care about room correction. The XMC-2 has been implied by Emotiva to cost $3000 when it comes out. Its got less inputs and outputs than the XMC-1, but adds 4 height channels (very important} and the center channel is now fully balanced (who in the hell cares about that I don't even want to know). In my opinion, if the XMC-2 cost $2000, it would be a killer. At $3000, its not even on my radar. At the very most it should be $2500. I agree, EMO's pre's should not rival the cost of Marantz and other Higher end pre's for WAY less features etc. Lastly if I paid anywhere close to that and my pre was buggy I would lose my mind. My Marantz has been rock solid. I like to install the stuff I use at home, so Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Classe, Jolida, Yamaha etc. Stable, which doesn't upset my clients and doesn't hurt my reputation. The buggy issue is one that scares me as well. I have the 8802A and it’s rock solid. I also have a 40% off card and I have thought about buying the RMC-1, but a lost of the post on here have me nervous about it. I’m sure it will be better in 6 months, but we shall see.
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Post by rbk123 on Dec 3, 2018 21:38:53 GMT -5
I have thought about buying the RMC-1, but a lost of the post on here have me nervous about it. I’m sure it will be better in 6 months, but we shall see. It will be fine (hell, it'll be more than fine), just resist the urge to get it early.
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Post by davidl81 on Dec 3, 2018 21:46:02 GMT -5
I have thought about buying the RMC-1, but a lost of the post on here have me nervous about it. I’m sure it will be better in 6 months, but we shall see. It will be fine (hell, it'll be more than fine), just resist the urge to get it early. That’s my thinking. Wait a few months for the bugs to get worked out.
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Post by emofrmcgy on Dec 3, 2018 21:47:05 GMT -5
For $2500 one could get a used Marantz 8802a AND an XSP-1, and get a LOT more than an XMC-1 by itself. Just sayin'. But then again I don't care about room correction. The XMC-2 has been implied by Emotiva to cost $3000 when it comes out. Its got less inputs and outputs than the XMC-1, but adds 4 height channels (very important} and the center channel is now fully balanced (who in the hell cares about that I don't even want to know). In my opinion, if the XMC-2 cost $2000, it would be a killer. At $3000, its not even on my radar. At the very most it should be $2500. I can't get both of those up here for that cheap, not in our Canadian dollars haha, I'm too scared to spend that much on a 8802a up here, the 7702 turned me off too much, if I could A/B them in my room would be great but I ain't that rich lol. $4000 up here from Crutchfield www.crutchfield.ca/p_642AV8802A/Marantz-AV8802A.html?awkw=295088347616&awat=pla&awnw=g&awcr=190569397805&awdv=c&awug=9001227There's guys that spend big bucks to get that smooth mellow sound of the Marantz that you didn't like. I had one too, it wasn't bad. It wasn't in your face like some of the stuff I've had. It didn't have the same dynamics that my Anthem has. But while I had it, I was happy because it was far more reliable and just plain worked with no funny noises or lock ups or drop outs like the Xmc it replaced. I've been trying to wait for the xmc-2, but with the bug show that came from the v3 board and rmc-1 along with the fact Emo is raising prices....AGAIN.. I'll probably just wait on the next gen Anthem and be done. One man's trash is another's treasure. TO EACH HIS OWN. Buy what gets ya off.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Dec 3, 2018 21:59:16 GMT -5
I’m sitting here watching Monday Night football through my XMC-1 with new board and wondering why I’m reading here that I should not be enjoying it because of its bugs. I’ve got news for you. With the latest firmware, It’s rock solid. Sounds great. Working well. I have no regrets buying the XMC-1.
I do agree that there needs to be a product in the $1500 - $2000 range from Emotiva for those who don’t want to spend $3000 and up. The higher priced processors are a big investment.
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Post by emofrmcgy on Dec 3, 2018 22:06:12 GMT -5
I’m sitting here watching Monday Night football through my XMC-1 with new board and wondering why I’m reading here that I should not be enjoying it because of its bugs. I’ve got news for you. With the latest firmware, It’s rock solid. Sounds great. Working well. I have no regrets buying the XMC-1. I do agree that there needs to be a product in the $1500 - $2000 range from Emotiva for those who don’t want to spend $3000 and up. The higher priced processors are a big investment. I’m glad you don’t experience the same things I did when I owned it. Many didn’t, some did..... Sadly MINE didn’t work FOR ME. Just as Chad’s Marantz didn’t work for him.
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Post by creimes on Dec 3, 2018 22:08:13 GMT -5
There's guys that spend big bucks to get that smooth mellow sound of the Marantz that you didn't like. I had one too, it wasn't bad. It wasn't in your face like some of the stuff I've had. It didn't have the same dynamics that my Anthem has. But while I had it, I was happy because it was far more reliable and just plain worked with no funny noises or lock ups or drop outs like the Xmc it replaced. I've been trying to wait for the xmc-2, but with the bug show that came from the v3 board and rmc-1 along with the fact Emo is raising prices....AGAIN.. I'll probably just wait on the next gen Anthem and be done. One man's trash is another's treasure. TO EACH HIS OWN. Buy what gets ya off.
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Post by emofrmcgy on Dec 3, 2018 22:12:33 GMT -5
There's guys that spend big bucks to get that smooth mellow sound of the Marantz that you didn't like. I had one too, it wasn't bad. It wasn't in your face like some of the stuff I've had. It didn't have the same dynamics that my Anthem has. But while I had it, I was happy because it was far more reliable and just plain worked with no funny noises or lock ups or drop outs like the Xmc it replaced. I've been trying to wait for the xmc-2, but with the bug show that came from the v3 board and rmc-1 along with the fact Emo is raising prices....AGAIN.. I'll probably just wait on the next gen Anthem and be done. One man's trash is another's treasure. TO EACH HIS OWN. Buy what gets ya off. No need to make this political. Go ahead say what ya really think.
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