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Post by teaman on Feb 27, 2019 22:50:26 GMT -5
Here is a picture with the new subs installed. So far the results are unfortunately fairly poor. I feel as though I am missing a ton on the mid bass, and I am not sure what is wrong. I ran Audyssey when I installed them, and I’m thinking I’ll rerun it to see if I can get better results. I bumped the gain up a good bit on the subs, but I still feel as though they are lacking. I don’t think it’s the subs per say, but maybe just a combo of these subs not being a great fit for my room. Physically they fit great in the spot I have, and I don’t really know if I can fit the ported 15” subs. View AttachmentHow do the new subs compare to your SVS you removed? Is it possible to move the subs to the front of you towers but along the walls? Just a thought. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 27, 2019 23:31:26 GMT -5
David - I really wouldn't want you to be disappointed - I know it's a big purchase for you. Try them for two weeks (and DO that subwoofer crawl). If these subs are still not doing it for you, I'll take them back if you'll pay the shipping. I stand behind the items I sell.
Boom
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Post by davidl81 on Feb 27, 2019 23:42:50 GMT -5
David - I really wouldn't want you to be disappointed - I know it's a big purchase for you. Try them for two weeks (and DO that subwoofer crawl). If these subs are still not doing it for you, I'll take them back if you'll pay the shipping. I stand behind the items I sell. Boom No worries boom, it’s not the subs at all, I think it’s just the room and how they are reacting to it. I’ll mess around with them over the weekend and I bet I can get them to work. |
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Post by davidl81 on Feb 28, 2019 8:30:49 GMT -5
Here is a picture with the new subs installed. So far the results are unfortunately fairly poor. I feel as though I am missing a ton on the mid bass, and I am not sure what is wrong. I ran Audyssey when I installed them, and I’m thinking I’ll rerun it to see if I can get better results. I bumped the gain up a good bit on the subs, but I still feel as though they are lacking. I don’t think it’s the subs per say, but maybe just a combo of these subs not being a great fit for my room. Physically they fit great in the spot I have, and I don’t really know if I can fit the ported 15” subs. How do the new subs compare to your SVS you removed? Is it possible to move the subs to the front of you towers but along the walls? Just a thought. I really do think it is a position thing more than any thing else. The SVS subs seemed to be fuller all around from 80Hz to 30Hz or so. The sealed sub seems to be missing something from the 80-50Hz range. That being said as I sit in different chairs in the media room the sound can be fuller in some chairs than others. I will move the subs to outside of the towers tonight and try that, but I just need to make sure space wise they fit since I don't want the towers blocking my screen (the whole reason I swapped in the first place was because the SVS was slightly blocking the screen). Sub crawl is difficult in the room because quite frankly besides moving the subs on the other side of my mains there is really no place for these things to go. I will keep you guys updated over the next few days as I play around with them. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 28, 2019 8:36:19 GMT -5
Any way to put them BEHIND the listening couch?
They're easy to phase with the main speakers, no matter where you put them. The "delay" knob on each sub plate amp makes a HUGE difference in the punch and tightness of the bass. If you don't know how to set phase, I can PM you the instructions (or post them here).
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Post by davidl81 on Feb 28, 2019 8:47:14 GMT -5
I can't put them behind the main couch since we have a second row of seating behind the main row with not a ton of area between the rows. The subs (even being smaller sealed subs) will block that area. For better or worse they basically have to go where they are now.
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Post by davidl81 on Feb 28, 2019 10:54:10 GMT -5
So I played around some more and took a look at the Audyssey settings and I think that is where the error lies. It set all of my speakers (all 13 of them) to -12dB, and many of the cross over points were all over the board. Also my distances to the subs were weird, they showed 12' away while my main speakers showed 9'. The subs should be slightly closer to me, and I checked the delay on the subs and it is set to 0. In hind sight what I should have done was just plug in the new subs and adjust the gain since I was happy with how everything else was sounding. So I think I will either re-run Audyssey or just manually adjust this setup and go from there.
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Post by CRASHFIRE on Feb 28, 2019 12:05:15 GMT -5
I run dual HSU VTF-15H MK2s and love them. I replaced the SVS PB-4000S with them. I wanted to try the SVS because of all the hype and just couldn't justify the price for them. Way overpriced in my opinion. Therefore they went back. The only benefit to them was the APP control. And other than that, the HSU stole the show. This is my opinion of course and everyone is gonna have their own. Also, if you are considering going sealed, you might even look at their ULS-15 MK2 sealed subs. Pretty impressive.
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,276
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Post by KeithL on Feb 28, 2019 12:18:52 GMT -5
Hi..... Just a few things you should be aware of.....
1)
When Audyssey, or any other sort of room correction, sets the distance to various speakers, it is using "acoustic distance". It's measuring the relative amount of delay between each speaker and the listening position and adjusting things so they all come out the same. This is the measurement that should be accurate and, if it disagrees with what you get with a tape measure, then the ELECTRONIC MEASUREMENT takes precedence. It is the electronic delay that you want to be correct... the physical distance doesn't really matter. (It's not at all unusual for a subwoofer to have additional electronic delay compared to your other speakers... and a setting of "0" does NOT mean that there is actually no delay.)
2) The amount and type of bass you hear will depend on where the sub is positioned in the room, where your listening position is, and how the two relate to each other. This will make A MAJOR DIFFERENCE and, if it doesn't work out well, room correction may or may not be able to fix it. There are ALWAYS going to be spots in the room where there is excessive bass, and where there is too little, because it cancels out. Your goal is to get it to sound right at your listening position.
3) Room correction will do its best to reduce or eliminate various issues... but what it can do is limited. It is always best to find the location where your sub sounds best BEFORE running room correction (give it the best starting point possible). Room correction can USUALLY correct for too much bass - or for a bump in the frequency response. Room correction usually CANNOT correct for a major cancellation (a spot where there just doesn't seem to be any bass).
The only real solution for a serious cancellation is to find another spot for your subwoofer.
4) Moving a subwoofer even a few feet can sometimes make a big difference. The most important thing is where the sub is positioned in relation to the ROOM.
For example, putting the sub a few feet closer to or further from your chair won't make much difference. But moving the sub from a corner to a spot three feet down the wall away from the corner could make a big difference. And pulling it a few feet out from the wall will usually make a major difference.
So I played around some more and took a look at the Audyssey settings and I think that is where the error lies. It set all of my speakers (all 13 of them) to -12dB, and many of the cross over points were all over the board. Also my distances to the subs were weird, they showed 12' away while my main speakers showed 9'. The subs should be slightly closer to me, and I checked the delay on the subs and it is set to 0. In hind sight what I should have done was just plug in the new subs and adjust the gain since I was happy with how everything else was sounding. So I think I will either re-run Audyssey or just manually adjust this setup and go from there. |
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Post by bmoney187 on Feb 28, 2019 12:41:39 GMT -5
i suggest removing the corner traps.....moving your subs INTO the corner with the mains in fornt of them or vica versa.. can I ask...is there a reason you put those corner traps there? or did you just put them there thinking its what your supposed to do? (sorry if that sounds mean...just tryin to be blunt so you know what i am referring to) I feel y0u need to run REW to see what's going on....but DEFINITLY re-run audyessy...your comment of should have just plugged and pay....bad idea...anytime you switch a major component you should re-run audyssey. which version of audyssey do you have? there really is no reason these subs should be better than your previous subs above and below port tune...we will get it sorted/ Boomzilla...bravo to you sir...thats a standup offer!! |
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DLAW
Minor Hero
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Post by DLAW on Feb 28, 2019 14:26:05 GMT -5
I run dual HSU VTF-15H MK2s and love them. I replaced the SVS PB-4000S with them. I wanted to try the SVS because of all the hype and just couldn't justify the price for them. Way overpriced in my opinion. Therefore they went back. The only benefit to them was the APP control. And other than that, the HSU stole the show. This is my opinion of course and everyone is gonna have their own. Also, if you are considering going sealed, you might even look at their ULS-15 MK2 sealed subs. Pretty impressive. CRASHFIRE: I have the VTF-3MK5 and wanted duals but could not fit them in the living room. So instead I got a good deal on dual SVS PC-2000s. First thing I noticed was I had to the turn up the volume gain on the subs much higher than the Hsu, also the bass seemed tighter on the SVS but less full. When you compared the SVS PB 4000's to the HTU VTF-15H Mk2's did you notice the same thing, that the bass in fuller on the Hsu than the SVS.
David: If the sealed PSA's do not work for you I would suggest the Hsu VTF-3MK5 since it has the 15 inch driver with 600 watts RMS, the enclosure is not as deep as the Monolith 15 or the HSU VTF-15H Mk2 and it puts out similar output in most of the frequencies and is cheaper. I think the sub is 17 inch's wide, 23 or 24 inch's deep and weights under 100lbs (I think around 80lbs).. Also you can either have the subs 2 ports open, 1 port open or even sealed. That way you can experiment with the same sub rather than switching different type of subs.
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Post by leonski on Feb 28, 2019 18:40:50 GMT -5
Here is a picture with the new subs installed. So far the results are unfortunately fairly poor. I feel as though I am missing a ton on the mid bass, and I am not sure what is wrong. I ran Audyssey when I installed them, and I’m thinking I’ll rerun it to see if I can get better results. I bumped the gain up a good bit on the subs, but I still feel as though they are lacking. I don’t think it’s the subs per say, but maybe just a combo of these subs not being a great fit for my room. Physically they fit great in the spot I have, and I don’t really know if I can fit the ported 15” subs. Nothing worse than hooking up your new toys, flipping the switch and that sinking disappointment comes over you. Do you have the ability to measure response ? Have you tried one at a time ? I assume they’re in the same spot as the old ones, is spl comparable ? I know when I upgraded my subs a few years back I went from some Polk 12’s to an 18”. It was very underwhelming to start with, I wasn’t used to the very low distortion bass, it seemed quieter to my ear but via spl meter it was actually louder. Just a thought. Never mind that last bit. Just saw you had some svs pc12’s. Distortion should be low with either. If you know how to use rew it has a function where you can run simulation of your room. It’s the next best thing to the sub crawl. It can tell you where you’ll get room nodes and nulls and at what frequency they’ll be. It’s highly accurate. As true as your statement is, it is also true that the human ear / brain system is very poor at low frequency distortion. Where maybe 1% is a LOT at higher frequencies, it's gonna pass nearly unnoticed at 50hz or so. I don't know, offhand where the frequency / distortion tolerance lies. And I suspect it matters even LESS with effects laden movies. Nobody, but NOBODY knows what most of that is actually supposed to sound like. It sounds cool, when the Dinosaur footstep rattles the entire house or the whoop-whoop of a slowly spinning helicopter blade pressureises the house but few know what any of that REALLY sounds like. |
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Post by emofrmcgy on Feb 28, 2019 19:44:13 GMT -5
Nothing worse than hooking up your new toys, flipping the switch and that sinking disappointment comes over you. Do you have the ability to measure response ? Have you tried one at a time ? I assume they’re in the same spot as the old ones, is spl comparable ? I know when I upgraded my subs a few years back I went from some Polk 12’s to an 18”. It was very underwhelming to start with, I wasn’t used to the very low distortion bass, it seemed quieter to my ear but via spl meter it was actually louder. Just a thought. Never mind that last bit. Just saw you had some svs pc12’s. Distortion should be low with either. If you know how to use rew it has a function where you can run simulation of your room. It’s the next best thing to the sub crawl. It can tell you where you’ll get room nodes and nulls and at what frequency they’ll be. It’s highly accurate. As true as your statement is, it is also true that the human ear / brain system is very poor at low frequency distortion. Where maybe 1% is a LOT at higher frequencies, it's gonna pass nearly unnoticed at 50hz or so. I don't know, offhand where the frequency / distortion tolerance lies. And I suspect it matters even LESS with effects laden movies. Nobody, but NOBODY knows what most of that is actually supposed to sound like. It sounds cool, when the Dinosaur footstep rattles the entire house or the whoop-whoop of a slowly spinning helicopter blade pressureises the house but few know what any of that REALLY sounds like. My entire post was just talking out my ass. What I meant to say was, do the subwoofer crawl. |
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Post by leonski on Feb 28, 2019 22:17:13 GMT -5
As true as your statement is, it is also true that the human ear / brain system is very poor at low frequency distortion. Where maybe 1% is a LOT at higher frequencies, it's gonna pass nearly unnoticed at 50hz or so. I don't know, offhand where the frequency / distortion tolerance lies. And I suspect it matters even LESS with effects laden movies. Nobody, but NOBODY knows what most of that is actually supposed to sound like. It sounds cool, when the Dinosaur footstep rattles the entire house or the whoop-whoop of a slowly spinning helicopter blade pressureises the house but few know what any of that REALLY sounds like. My entire post was just talking out my ass. What I meant to say was, do the subwoofer crawl. I think your post was OK, don't be harsh on yourself. Let others do it for you! SubCrawl? 'Fraid it might come to that! And don't underestimate REW. One hangup? I suspect that due to long wavelength involved, it might be difficult to get good reliable AND repeatable measures under maybe 200hz, give or take. Do the current crop of Calibration Mics have a tripod socket? I'd USE IT, if available. |
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Post by emofrmcgy on Feb 28, 2019 23:19:13 GMT -5
My entire post was just talking out my ass. What I meant to say was, do the subwoofer crawl. I think your post was OK, don't be harsh on yourself. Let others do it for you! SubCrawl? 'Fraid it might come to that! And don't underestimate REW. One hangup? I suspect that due to long wavelength involved, it might be difficult to get good reliable AND repeatable measures under maybe 200hz, give or take. Do the current crop of Calibration Mics have a tripod socket? I'd USE IT, if available. I don’t underestimate rew, calibrated mic’s like the umik-1 or Dayton emm-6 fit perfectly into a $3 clip that screws onto tripods or boom stands. The measurements are 100% repeatable. Personally, unless you’re using full bandwidth pink noise and an rta.... sub crawl only gets you half there. If all you’re using is an spl meter or your ear you’re still sitting in nulls at some frequency. Example. My front subs have a sharp narrow null at 30hz in my front row of seats but that bull moves to 40hz in my rear row. My side subs roll off steeply under 60hz but give a very good punch to augment my mains. My rear subs fill in that 30 and 40hz null. I wouldn’t know any of this by simply crawling around on the floor. But.. this process isn’t for everyone. Some people can hear better than a calibrated mic. Forgot to mention all of this was predicted using rew room simulator and proved using a calibrated USB microphone and hours of testing. |
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Post by leonski on Mar 1, 2019 3:08:50 GMT -5
Measurement is a very complicated science.
Just from an equipment standpoint you have Accuracy. This is how closely the tool measures the actual value....
Secondly you have repeatability. Measureing the same thing many times will result in a variance of readings.
And finally? Operator sensitivity. Tive the same microphone wiht the same materials in the same room and
sequentially have 3 different operators measure the room. You'll get SOME agreement but some DIS agreement,
as well.
Years ago I used a calculating template to determine the 'fitness' of a measuring toolf for the job. I had my OWN
set of samples to measure. Each sample was marked as to where this meausurement was to be taken. I would
enlist 3 operators to make measurments. All results were 'crunched' and a determination could be made on that
basis. Operator was NOT a trivial part of the system.
Such metrology confirmations were part of ISO requirements. If EMO is an ISO certified facility at some point they
need to go thru the metrology equipent and run what's called a 'Gage R+R' study.
I saved my samples and could repeat the test next year. Since the samples were properly stored AND were of
a nature that didn't 'age', I was confident they SHOULD measure the same from year to year. Which they mostly
DID.
Your results sound very good. And detailed. It would appear you went to a great deal of trouble to do whatever
you could to do it right. If I were doing such a measurement scheme, I'd even know distances from walls and
height of microphone AND direction it was aimed.
If REW has a curve averaging function, I'd use that, too, and average 3 measurements per point......LOTS OF WORK.
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Post by davidl81 on Mar 1, 2019 9:13:42 GMT -5
So here is my morning update. I went into the audio settings and adjusted the crossover points for the individual speakers and for the LFE channel. I set the speakers at 80Hz and the LFE at 100Hz. I adjusted the volume levels on the speakers from the test tone, and turned down the gain just a tad on the sub. Overall it has had a very positive impact on the sound in the room. I think the subs still may have a little too much gain though. One down side is that these subs I think have a much higher SPL down at the lower Hz levels. While it sounds great in the theater room, that sound really travels through the rest of the house much more so than the SVS subs did. So now that the room sounds better, I have to figure out if there is a way to get that sound from traveling through the rest of the home so much. I wonder if this is more specific to a down firing sub (although my svs was down firing, but ported with a base plate) and this room being upstairs, or is it just a function of the bigger woofer driving more at the lower end that will carry through the home more? Regardless I can work on those things this weekend, at least I feel as though I'm on the right track with the sound in the room.
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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 1, 2019 9:32:32 GMT -5
Once the frequencies get low enough, the long wave lengths get better at setting off sympathetic vibrations despite meager impediments like flimsy sheet-rock walls. My next door neighbor could tell when my subwoofer was active when using SEVERAL of the subs I've previously owned. Often times my wife (at the far end of the house, with all the doors closed) could tell when I was using the sub because things in the room began vibrating, and she could feel the waves in her diaphragm (she didn't like it). And yes, sealed subs (and sometimes ones with passive radiators) seem to do low bass better than ported subs, but this is a gross generalization that, although usually true, isn't always the case.
One option is to keep two bass equalization profiles in your software - one for normal music playback, and the other for those few recordings with true low bass. The latter, so far as I know break into only a few categories:
Organ music with subsonic pedal tones
Rave or pop music with heavy, deep synthesizers
Music specifically designed for car stereos (including much rap music)
Acoustic recordings of thunderstorms, whales, diggeriedoos, bull-roarers, etc.
Glad to hear that things are improving!
Boom
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Post by davidl81 on Mar 1, 2019 9:50:30 GMT -5
Once the frequencies get low enough, the long wave lengths get better at setting off sympathetic vibrations despite meager impediments like flimsy sheet-rock walls. My next door neighbor could tell when my subwoofer was active when using SEVERAL of the subs I've previously owned. Often times my wife (at the far end of the house, with all the doors closed) could tell when I was using the sub because things in the room began vibrating, and she could feel the waves in her diaphragm (she didn't like it). And yes, sealed subs (and sometimes ones with passive radiators) seem to do low bass better than ported subs, but this is a gross generalization that, although usually true, isn't always the case. One option is to keep two bass equalization profiles in your software - one for normal music playback, and the other for those few recordings with true low bass. The latter, so far as I know break into only a few categories: Organ music with subsonic pedal tones Rave or pop music with heavy, deep synthesizers Music specifically designed for car stereos (including much rap music) Acoustic recordings of thunderstorms, whales, diggeriedoos, bull-roarers, etc. Glad to hear that things are improving! Boom The Marantz has a setting in Audyssey for something like nighttime sub mode (not sure the exact term they use), but my understanding is that is knocks out some of the very low range sound to help from that traveling across the house at night. Although it may take away something from movies, it may be an option to use time to time when the family is sleeping and I want to watch something without waking them out. Yet another thing to play with over the weekend. |
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Post by bmoney187 on Mar 1, 2019 10:14:42 GMT -5
Once the frequencies get low enough, the long wave lengths get better at setting off sympathetic vibrations despite meager impediments like flimsy sheet-rock walls. My next door neighbor could tell when my subwoofer was active when using SEVERAL of the subs I've previously owned. Often times my wife (at the far end of the house, with all the doors closed) could tell when I was using the sub because things in the room began vibrating, and she could feel the waves in her diaphragm (she didn't like it). And yes, sealed subs (and sometimes ones with passive radiators) seem to do low bass better than ported subs, but this is a gross generalization that, although usually true, isn't always the case. One option is to keep two bass equalization profiles in your software - one for normal music playback, and the other for those few recordings with true low bass. The latter, so far as I know break into only a few categories: Organ music with subsonic pedal tones Rave or pop music with heavy, deep synthesizers Music specifically designed for car stereos (including much rap music) Acoustic recordings of thunderstorms, whales, diggeriedoos, bull-roarers, etc. Glad to hear that things are improving! Boom The Marantz has a setting in Audyssey for something like nighttime sub mode (not sure the exact term they use), but my understanding is that is knocks out some of the very low range sound to help from that traveling across the house at night. Although it may take away something from movies, it may be an option to use time to time when the family is sleeping and I want to watch something without waking them out. Yet another thing to play with over the weekend. You’ll never be able to contain the bass. What happened is it vibrates the studs in the walls. Bang on a stud with your hand in the basement. I guarantee you can hear it anywhere in the house. The only way to subdue the bass is to decouple the room from the existing studs ( there is more too but in one can be retro fitted) and even then bass is almost impossible to mitigate completely. The lower the bass the more likely it will be heard. As for your LFe crossover. That should always be set to it’s max (usually 120) Glad to hear you are enjoying them More now!! |
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