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Post by fbczar on Mar 1, 2019 11:57:38 GMT -5
So here is my morning update. I went into the audio settings and adjusted the crossover points for the individual speakers and for the LFE channel. I set the speakers at 80Hz and the LFE at 100Hz. I adjusted the volume levels on the speakers from the test tone, and turned down the gain just a tad on the sub. Overall it has had a very positive impact on the sound in the room. I think the subs still may have a little too much gain though. One down side is that these subs I think have a much higher SPL down at the lower Hz levels. While it sounds great in the theater room, that sound really travels through the rest of the house much more so than the SVS subs did. So now that the room sounds better, I have to figure out if there is a way to get that sound from traveling through the rest of the home so much. I wonder if this is more specific to a down firing sub (although my svs was down firing, but ported with a base plate) and this room being upstairs, or is it just a function of the bigger woofer driving more at the lower end that will carry through the home more? Regardless I can work on those things this weekend, at least I feel as though I'm on the right track with the sound in the room. By convention the LFE Channel extends to 120Hz. Why would you limit the LFE frequency range to 100Hz? Remember, LFE is an effects channel for sounds like explosions and such. The crossover you set at 80Hz does not relate to the LFE channel. It relates to the integration of your main speakers and subwoofers for music and such. The LFE channel normally acts independently of your main speakers and relates only to your subwoofers. You can increase or decrease the level of the LFE channel, of course, but I don't understand why you would want to limit its frequency range unless your subs cannot play above 100Hz. As far as controlling bass or keeping it in your sound room, there is not much you can do once your room is built. If you have rooms above your sound room 4' to 6" of rock wool on top of the sound room ceiling might help. you could do the same with the walls and floor of the room if you wanted to entertain a big project. Basically, decoupling the room from the rest of the house is the only way to be truly effective in controlling low bass. |
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Post by davidl81 on Mar 1, 2019 12:04:37 GMT -5
So here is my morning update. I went into the audio settings and adjusted the crossover points for the individual speakers and for the LFE channel. I set the speakers at 80Hz and the LFE at 100Hz. I adjusted the volume levels on the speakers from the test tone, and turned down the gain just a tad on the sub. Overall it has had a very positive impact on the sound in the room. I think the subs still may have a little too much gain though. One down side is that these subs I think have a much higher SPL down at the lower Hz levels. While it sounds great in the theater room, that sound really travels through the rest of the house much more so than the SVS subs did. So now that the room sounds better, I have to figure out if there is a way to get that sound from traveling through the rest of the home so much. I wonder if this is more specific to a down firing sub (although my svs was down firing, but ported with a base plate) and this room being upstairs, or is it just a function of the bigger woofer driving more at the lower end that will carry through the home more? Regardless I can work on those things this weekend, at least I feel as though I'm on the right track with the sound in the room. By convention the LFE Channel extends to 120Hz. Why would you limit the LFE frequency range to 100Hz? Remember, LFE is an effects channel for sounds like explosions and such. The crossover you set at 80Hz does not relate to the LFE channel. It relates to the integration of your main speakers and subwoofers for music and such. The LFE channel normally acts independently of your main speakers and relates only to your subwoofers. You can increase or decrease the level of the LFE channel, of course, but I don't understand why you would want to limit its frequency range unless your subs cannot play above 100Hz. As far as controlling bass or keeping it in your sound room, there is not much you can do once your room is built. If you have rooms above your sound room 4' to 6" of rock wool on top of the sound room ceiling might help. you could do the same with the walls and floor of the room if you wanted to entertain a big project. Basically, decoupling the room from the rest of the house is the only way to be truly effective in controlling low bass. The 100 Hz was a starting point. But I think you are correct and 120 Hz may be a better point. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 1, 2019 12:06:37 GMT -5
Exactly......
Bass passes through most things rather easily... and is difficult to isolate. A really thick layer of rock wool helps... and, if you're building from scratch, there are plans involving double walls and ceilings, and ways of isolating part of a structure by "floating walls" and such, but most have to be part of how the room is built. (Of course, having a separate room, with cement block walls isolating it from the rest of the house, would work well; and, if you're really dedicated, and have strong foundations, half inch thick sheets of lead work well  .)
The easiest solution is to make sure that at least most of the movies you like to watch also appeal to the rest of the family... That way they'll be in the theater room watching WITH YOU.... and won't be complaining about hearing your movie in the rest of the house.....  (And, if the neighbors complain, consider inviting them over as well... at least sometimes.)
So here is my morning update. I went into the audio settings and adjusted the crossover points for the individual speakers and for the LFE channel. I set the speakers at 80Hz and the LFE at 100Hz. I adjusted the volume levels on the speakers from the test tone, and turned down the gain just a tad on the sub. Overall it has had a very positive impact on the sound in the room. I think the subs still may have a little too much gain though. One down side is that these subs I think have a much higher SPL down at the lower Hz levels. While it sounds great in the theater room, that sound really travels through the rest of the house much more so than the SVS subs did. So now that the room sounds better, I have to figure out if there is a way to get that sound from traveling through the rest of the home so much. I wonder if this is more specific to a down firing sub (although my svs was down firing, but ported with a base plate) and this room being upstairs, or is it just a function of the bigger woofer driving more at the lower end that will carry through the home more? Regardless I can work on those things this weekend, at least I feel as though I'm on the right track with the sound in the room. By convention the LFE Channel extends to 120Hz. Why would you limit the LFE frequency range to 100Hz? Remember, LFE is an effects channel for sounds like explosions and such. The crossover you set at 80Hz does not relate to the LFE channel. It relates to the integration of your main speakers and subwoofers for music and such. The LFE channel normally acts independently of your main speakers and relates only to your subwoofers. You can increase or decrease the level of the LFE channel, of course, but I don't understand why you would want to limit its frequency range unless your subs cannot play above 100Hz. As far as controlling bass or keeping it in your sound room, there is not much you can do once your room is built. If you have rooms above your sound room 4' to 6" of rock wool on top of the sound room ceiling might help. you could do the same with the walls and floor of the room if you wanted to entertain a big project. Basically, decoupling the room from the rest of the house is the only way to be truly effective in controlling low bass. |
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Post by fbczar on Mar 1, 2019 12:08:16 GMT -5
By convention the LFE Channel extends to 120Hz. Why would you limit the LFE frequency range to 100Hz? Remember, LFE is an effects channel for sounds like explosions and such. The crossover you set at 80Hz does not relate to the LFE channel. It relates to the integration of your main speakers and subwoofers for music and such. The LFE channel normally acts independently of your main speakers and relates only to your subwoofers. You can increase or decrease the level of the LFE channel, of course, but I don't understand why you would want to limit its frequency range unless your subs cannot play above 100Hz. As far as controlling bass or keeping it in your sound room, there is not much you can do once your room is built. If you have rooms above your sound room 4' to 6" of rock wool on top of the sound room ceiling might help. you could do the same with the walls and floor of the room if you wanted to entertain a big project. Basically, decoupling the room from the rest of the house is the only way to be truly effective in controlling low bass. The 100 Hz was a starting point. But I think you are correct and 120 Hz may be a better point. The upper limit of LFE is 120Hz. Setting it to 120Hz will allow it to play the full range it is capable of. You do not need to concern yourself with the crossover point of the subs or your main speakers relative to LFE. Just set it to 120Hz and forget it. which processor are you using? |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 1, 2019 12:17:56 GMT -5
Quite so.... it's their job to present you with what you EXPECT to see and hear.... which may or may not actually be anything like the real thing.
Real battles in space would be dead silent (no air = no sound)... but that wouldn't be much fun at all. And those big fireballs you always see when things explode in movies are lacking from most real explosions... most of which are just a very sudden white flash.
It is especially true with speakers and headphones that we often become accustomed to excessive or distorted bass - which sounds like a lot of bass... Then, when we actually hear clear and undistorted bass, it sounds like the bass has gone missing...
At a minimum you should always allow a few days to get used to new speakers (and especially subs)... It's also not a bad idea to listen to a variety of content with new speakers... You may find that, with many songs, you were just hearing a lot of medium-low notes, accompanied by a lot of distortion... While, with others, you hear (or feel), real low notes you never noticed before...
Nothing worse than hooking up your new toys, flipping the switch and that sinking disappointment comes over you. Do you have the ability to measure response ? Have you tried one at a time ? I assume they’re in the same spot as the old ones, is spl comparable ? I know when I upgraded my subs a few years back I went from some Polk 12’s to an 18”. It was very underwhelming to start with, I wasn’t used to the very low distortion bass, it seemed quieter to my ear but via spl meter it was actually louder. Just a thought. Never mind that last bit. Just saw you had some svs pc12’s. Distortion should be low with either. If you know how to use rew it has a function where you can run simulation of your room. It’s the next best thing to the sub crawl. It can tell you where you’ll get room nodes and nulls and at what frequency they’ll be. It’s highly accurate. As true as your statement is, it is also true that the human ear / brain system is very poor at low frequency distortion. Where maybe 1% is a LOT at higher frequencies, it's gonna pass nearly unnoticed at 50hz or so. I don't know, offhand where the frequency / distortion tolerance lies. And I suspect it matters even LESS with effects laden movies. Nobody, but NOBODY knows what most of that is actually supposed to sound like. It sounds cool, when the Dinosaur footstep rattles the entire house or the whoop-whoop of a slowly spinning helicopter blade pressureises the house but few know what any of that REALLY sounds like. |
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Post by davidl81 on Mar 1, 2019 12:19:40 GMT -5
The 100 Hz was a starting point. But I think you are correct and 120 Hz may be a better point. The upper limit of LFE is 120Hz. Setting it to 120Hz will allow it to play the full range it is capable of. You do not need to concern yourself with the crossover point of the subs or your main speakers relative to LFE. Just set it to 120Hz and forget it. which processor are you using? Marantz AV8802A. |
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Post by leonski on Mar 1, 2019 12:29:10 GMT -5
By 120hz, the sub will begin to be 'localizable'......that is? found by ear.
Also? Keeping the main speakers and sub from excessive overlap in frequency might result is less 'clutter' and more distinct bass.
Maybe more musical, too.
I'm no HT guy, but doesn't setting the main speakers to 'small' actually REDUCE bass input to those speakers?
I wouldn't even use the same frequency for low and high cut filters. I'd leave a GAP since filters are NOT a brick wall but rather 'sloped'
So when you set a low pass filter to 60hz, and it's 24db per octave? Output down by 24db at 12hz and proportionally from 60 to 120.
The high pass filter at maybe 80hz would be down whatever at 1 octave, or 40hz. The idea is for the filters to SUM FLAT in the area between them.
That's how I'm setup with the exception of frequencies which are lower than I list.....My crossover for sub is about 40hz to 45hz and mains at about 55hz.
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Post by Percussionista on Mar 1, 2019 12:45:24 GMT -5
Guys, I am looking to replace my dual SVS PC12 Plus subs with something in a more conventional sub design (ie square box). My biggest reason for changing is that the PC-12s sit a little too tall and they block the screen to my projector a tad.... My current 12" subs preform well for my room, so I could just go back with 12" ones, but my thought is if I am changing any way might as go with bigger units unless there is some down side to them that I am not seeing. What are your general thoughts towards this. Looking at your picture, the subs barely clip the bottom corners of the screen. I'm still a bit surprised you'd go to the trouble/expense of getting new ones with such minor screen blockage.
I actually have one SVS PC-12+ myself in a (new to us) 11x16.4 theater room (9 foot ceilings, no windows) and my sub is plenty to say the least. I do understand that many folks prefer two just to spread out and smooth the room response. When we moved in and I installed the set-up, I hadn't changed any of the settings on the sub, which had been previously been in a room with about twice the volume. I tried some test movies with lots of low-end, notably the opening scene of Star Wars II, and it shook the whole house! The front door was rattling!! I had to engage the SVS's room gain control - thank goodness for that. |
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Post by davidl81 on Mar 1, 2019 12:52:14 GMT -5
Guys, I am looking to replace my dual SVS PC12 Plus subs with something in a more conventional sub design (ie square box). My biggest reason for changing is that the PC-12s sit a little too tall and they block the screen to my projector a tad.... My current 12" subs preform well for my room, so I could just go back with 12" ones, but my thought is if I am changing any way might as go with bigger units unless there is some down side to them that I am not seeing. What are your general thoughts towards this. Looking at your picture, the subs barely clip the bottom corners of the screen. I'm still a bit surprised you'd go to the trouble/expense of getting new ones with such minor screen blockage.
I actually have one SVS PC-12+ myself in a (new to us) 11x16.4 theater room (9 foot ceilings, no windows) and my sub is plenty to say the least. I do understand that many folks prefer two just to spread out and smooth the room response. When we moved in and I installed the set-up, I hadn't changed any of the settings on the sub, which had been previously been in a room with about twice the volume. I tried some test movies with lots of low-end, notably the opening scene of Star Wars II, and it shook the whole house! The front door was rattling!! I had to engage the SVS's room gain control - thank goodness for that. The picture is slightly misleading as sitting down on the chairs the screen was blocked a little bit more, but yeah this was not something that I had to do by any stretch. I was also just wanting to play with something different. I do agree the single SVS sub put out plenty of power for the room, I found by adding the second sub the bass was more even across the the room (less hot and cold spots), and it was slightly less localized. It was an incremental gain for sure on the second sub, but at the levels of this game that we all play the gains are going to be small at best. |
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Post by fbczar on Mar 1, 2019 13:37:46 GMT -5
The upper limit of LFE is 120Hz. Setting it to 120Hz will allow it to play the full range it is capable of. You do not need to concern yourself with the crossover point of the subs or your main speakers relative to LFE. Just set it to 120Hz and forget it. which processor are you using? Marantz AV8802A. The 8802A is a great processor. If I were you I would experiment with and without Audyssey, to determine the best crossover point, but I do not think there is any doubt that the LFE channel should be set to 120. |
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Post by fbczar on Mar 1, 2019 13:55:55 GMT -5
By 120hz, the sub will begin to be 'localizable'......that is? found by ear. Also? Keeping the main speakers and sub from excessive overlap in frequency might result is less 'clutter' and more distinct bass. Maybe more musical, too. I'm no HT guy, but doesn't setting the main speakers to 'small' actually REDUCE bass input to those speakers? I wouldn't even use the same frequency for low and high cut filters. I'd leave a GAP since filters are NOT a brick wall but rather 'sloped' So when you set a low pass filter to 60hz, and it's 24db per octave? Output down by 24db at 12hz and proportionally from 60 to 120. The high pass filter at maybe 80hz would be down whatever at 1 octave, or 40hz. The idea is for the filters to SUM FLAT in the area between them. That's how I'm setup with the exception of frequencies which are lower than I list.....My crossover for sub is about 40hz to 45hz and mains at about 55hz. 120Hz is the upper limit of the LFE channel. The LFE channel has nothing to do with the crossover point. The LFE channel is not effected by the crossover point, but it can be effected if the frequency range it plays is limited by the user. The crossover point relates to the standard bass output of the system. The idea is to let both the subs and the main speakers do what they do best while achieving a seamless transition between the two. Setting the main speakers to small is exactly what you should do. The 8802A the OP uses can handle the crossover with no problem. He can select a 24db or 12db slope based on the type subs and type speakers he uses. The Marantz makes it simple. He just needs to listen to determine what sounds best to him. Localization is an issue. In systems with one subwoofer the higher the crossover the more localizable the subwoofer can be. I have always found single subwoofer systems to be localizable no matter the crossover point, but everyone hears differently and what bothers me not not bother you. Multiple subwoofer systems pretty much eliminate localization and remove the concern about keeping the crossover point low just to prevent localization. |
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Post by Percussionista on Mar 1, 2019 16:24:52 GMT -5
BTW nice looking room. We're in the process of moving and my HT will be in a smaller room than what I have today... it will be 10'11" x 15'7" with 10" ceiling dedicated room. Looks like you have 3 seats across? Do you have any other pictures of the room? This picture of the rear is before I added the sound panels and changed out the rear speakers, but its gives you an idea of what it looks like.... I'm just now in discussions with ATS Acoustics on putting up panels myself. I see you had quite a bit in the front. I expect to have most in the rear and sides, and then see how it goes. If need be I might go with a few on the ceiling. I wonder if you had to turn on the SVS's room gain controls, or instead have the wall panels done a sufficient job at the low end? I'm guessing from the front picture that the ones in the front corners are actually bass traps. |
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Post by leonski on Mar 1, 2019 17:31:56 GMT -5
By 120hz, the sub will begin to be 'localizable'......that is? found by ear. Also? Keeping the main speakers and sub from excessive overlap in frequency might result is less 'clutter' and more distinct bass. Maybe more musical, too. I'm no HT guy, but doesn't setting the main speakers to 'small' actually REDUCE bass input to those speakers? I wouldn't even use the same frequency for low and high cut filters. I'd leave a GAP since filters are NOT a brick wall but rather 'sloped' So when you set a low pass filter to 60hz, and it's 24db per octave? Output down by 24db at 12hz and proportionally from 60 to 120. The high pass filter at maybe 80hz would be down whatever at 1 octave, or 40hz. The idea is for the filters to SUM FLAT in the area between them. That's how I'm setup with the exception of frequencies which are lower than I list.....My crossover for sub is about 40hz to 45hz and mains at about 55hz. 120Hz is the upper limit of the LFE channel. The LFE channel has nothing to do with the crossover point. The LFE channel is not effected by the crossover point, but it can be effected if the frequency range it plays is limited by the user. The crossover point relates to the standard bass output of the system. The idea is to let both the subs and the main speakers do what they do best while achieving a seamless transition between the two. Setting the main speakers to small is exactly what you should do. The 8802A the OP uses can handle the crossover with no problem. He can select a 24db or 12db slope based on the type subs and type speakers he uses. The Marantz makes it simple. He just needs to listen to determine what sounds best to him. Localization is an issue. In systems with one subwoofer the higher the crossover the more localizable the subwoofer can be. I have always found single subwoofer systems to be localizable no matter the crossover point, but everyone hears differently and what bothers me not not bother you. Multiple subwoofer systems pretty much eliminate localization and remove the concern about keeping the crossover point low just to prevent localization. I have NO idea what you mean by the difference between Upper Limit and crossover not being the same. I've found that the OVERTONES provide localization information. So you might have a drum 'wack' at 40hz, but the overtones @2x and 3X the fundamental WILL increase, or TEND to increase stage width and perhaps depth. My solution in my 2.1 system was to Low Cut my mains above the Subs crossover point. The system SUMS FLAT thru that bandpass. Sub has a 24db/octave and the mains roll off at 12db/octave. I generally favor lower crossovers MAIN SPEAKERS PERMITTING. My panels are supposed to be good to 36hz or so. Maybe. So I'm not that bad with low-cutting them about 50hz to 55hz with the sub cutting in, maybe at 40hz to 45hz..... I always was led to believe the DOLBY standard was 80hz for sub / main cross? Even modest stand mounts should be capable of THAT. IMO it doesn't matter, or not very much WHERE some of the tracks are assigned for playback. If, as we agree, the mains were set to 'small' than LF stuff MUST go somewhere? Same for effects. |
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Post by leonski on Mar 2, 2019 22:44:47 GMT -5
fbczar, Here is an interesting link which helped straighted out your LFE V sub remarks. www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/US/Doc/Professional/38_LFE.pdfI'd like to see the physical setup in a theater. especially for the LFE channel. If well-centered with the screen? That would take care of directionality at the same time as the OverTones would provide L/R information. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2019 12:18:27 GMT -5
There is supposed to be very little output above 80Hz in the LFE signal. It is simply that, a low frequency effects separate channel (the 0.1 in 5.1 ch signal). It is designed to reproduce very loud and low bass signals in movie soundtracks such as in explosions etc and at plus 10 decibels over the regular bass signals. After 100Hz the LFE signal is suppose to drop off like at a cliff. At 120HZ there is zero signal. In effect there is very little signal anywhere above 100 Hz and rolls off fast above 80Hz. Also very little at 115 and 100 HZ. You can set it to 100 or 120 Hz and will hear very little difference. Unfortunately some idiot sound engineers have decided to put some signals in the higher range of the LFE in music surround recordings. It was designed only for very loud signals. For example, a loud explosion with a strong LFE signal below 80Hz and much more at 30-50hz and below (way below). If you hear a very loud/low sound from a soundtrack earthquake it will be at minus 3dB's at 15Hz or lower and plus 10dB level over the normal soundtrack.
This is why if you are serious about the best LFE playback and do movies you will have one or more very powerful/dynamic subs. The LFE signal can be from the same sub. No sense IMO for separate subs.
From Dolby Laboratories:
The signal in the LFE channel is calibrated
during soundtrack production to be able to contribute 10 dB higher SPL than the
same bass signal from any one of the screen (front) channels. Even if all three
screen channels are active, enough bass could be delivered by the LFE channel
alone to bring the theatre’s subwoofer into acoustic balance with the screen
channels. This allows filmmakers to unburden the main channels by diverting the
strongest bass to the separate LFE channel, as needed. Under the most demanding
program conditions, where the bass is fully loading the left, center, and right
channels, the LFE channel could increase the bass intensity by up to 6 dB.
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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 6, 2019 6:55:36 GMT -5
...And those big fireballs you always see when things explode in movies are lacking from most real explosions... most of which are just a very sudden white flash. LOL - Not been around too many explosions, have you, KeithL? Maybe military ordinance goes with a "sudden white flash," but industrial explosions (overpressure, detonation, vapor-cloud, etc.) usually have distinct audible signatures. Their common effect are the pressure waves that compress the diaphragm (and flap the doors open and closed on the control room building). Boom (no pun intended) |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 6, 2019 10:09:00 GMT -5
Yeah... but most little explosions aren't especially impressive. When I was in college we were going to make this movie... And one scene called for an explosion... And our friend, who was a Chem major, made up a small bit of high explosive, which we set off in the middle of a big empty field...
And we filmed it (this was in the days of film cameras)... The explosion itself was much too fast to see...
And all we got on film was one all-white frame... It took quite a bit of work to get something that looked like what people imagine an explosion looks like...
I've heard that, for the exploding lighthouse scene in "The Deep", they did something involving sawdust, gasoline, and rubber cement to make that impressive fireball. (And, in Earthquake, they used filtered pink noise to make a sound like what most people believe an earthquake would sound like.)
You're right, some big explosions are quite impressive, but most small ones aren't much fun at all (it takes a lot of effort and ingenuity to make fireworks look pretty). And a "firefight" in space would be really boring: no sound, no flames, and no fireball - unless you bring all the chemicals with you.
And, in space, with no atmosphere to diffuse them, LASERs are quite invisible (and many are even invisible to humans in air) - but then you wouldn't be able to see who was shooting at who. (A real space battle would be more like: "Oh. S# t ! There's a hole. Someone must be shooting at us.") However, my original point remains..... That many people I speak to are used to subwoofers and headphones that put out a lot of not-especially-low bass (with many of them you're actually hearing distortion and not the intended content at all).
Then, when they hear something that actually has a flat frequency response and relatively low distortion, it seems to "not make much bass". (But, in that case, most will get used to, and eventually prefer, the proper amount of clean bass after listening to it for a while.)
...And those big fireballs you always see when things explode in movies are lacking from most real explosions... most of which are just a very sudden white flash. LOL - Not been around too many explosions, have you, KeithL ? Maybe military ordinance goes with a "sudden white flash," but industrial explosions (overpressure, detonation, vapor-cloud, etc.) usually have distinct audible signatures. Their common effect are the pressure waves that compress the diaphragm (and flap the doors open and closed on the control room building). Boom (no pun intended) |
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Post by pedrocols on Mar 6, 2019 12:47:50 GMT -5
So did you get a new subwoofer or what.
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Post by davidl81 on Mar 6, 2019 13:15:23 GMT -5
So did you get a new subwoofer or what. Yes, I posted earlier that I bought two sealed box PSA subs from Boom. At first the results were not great, but as I’ve adjusted the EQ and some other things I have gotten better results. The subs are strong man, the bass moves through out the house (for better and worse) than my SVS subs did. |
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 6, 2019 20:39:12 GMT -5
So did you get a new subwoofer or what. Yes, I posted earlier that I bought two sealed box PSA subs from Boom. At first the results were not great, but as I’ve adjusted the EQ and some other things I have gotten better results. The subs are strong man, the bass moves through out the house (for better and worse) than my SVS subs did. That’s why they call him Boom 💥 |
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