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Post by monkumonku on Jan 2, 2024 13:28:34 GMT -5
My "favorite" was when I would open a nice new sealed high quality record... Clean it carefully... Put down the needle... Sit back, close my eyes, and.... <tick> Get up... Lift the arm... Carefully clean again... Put the needle back down... Sit back down.... and.... <tick> OK... back to the store... buy ANOTHER copy... Open... Clean carefully... Cross fingers... Put the needle back down... DON'T sit back down or close eyes this time... ... ... ... Now, if somehow a tick or pop finds its way into the audio once in a very rare while... It could be the DAC... or something else... but I KNOW it isn't my source file... (And I have a checksum with "zero errors" to prove it.) Well, I am sorry we can’t agree on this! I once bought a Chuck Mangione album with a nice warp in it right out of the sleeve. When it traveled around the turntable, you could see the hump in it that look like that hurdle you would get to on an amusement park ride you could hear the trumpet notes warble When the arm got to that magic spot. You know, maybe Cher's warbling voice is really from all her vinyl being warped? But then that doesn't explain the digital recordings unless somehow that warbling warped the 0's and 1's. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 2, 2024 16:06:47 GMT -5
“People who respond here really ought to watch the OPs video and get past the first 30 seconds...” I respectfully disagree.
I believe the title was perfect. If the OP wanted to make it better, he could omit everything past the first 30 seconds and be done with it. Less painful for everyone involved lol |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 2, 2024 17:54:51 GMT -5
There definitely are a lot of CDs in the world that don't sound very good at all. With some early ones I'm sure a lot of it is unintended but intentional... For example some mastering engineers deliberately aimed to make the new CD versions sound brighter, sharper, and more detailed... And, in other cases, I'm sure some of it can be put down to technical limitations of some of the early technology... But I've heard enough CDs that sound so good that it's obvious that the medium itself is capable of sounding amazingly good. The simple reality is that only a small percentage of the content available on CD "lives up to the full potential of the medium". And, yes, there were also plenty of crappy low quality records... But, for the most part, most of them have been gratefully forgotten... I think a lot of the difference in how we PERCEIVE vinyl and digital content is based on our expectations. For example, the absolute theoretical best S/N for vinyl is around 80 dB, and that is being very optimistic. And, of course, digital can exceed that, by pretty much any margin you like (96 dB for 16 bits; around 140 dB for 24 bits). But how much of that can you HEAR? The answer to that depends on how carefully you listen when the music is NOT playing. We used to expect to hear surface noise between tracks... when the music wasn't playing... The only thing we wondered was whether we were actually hearing surface noise or the background noise from our phono preamp. (But it kind of didn't matter since we couldn't hear that noise over the music either way.) But nowadays we expect dead silence between those tracks. It also used to be normal to hear a little bit of hiss from your amplifier, when you put your ear near the speaker, and there was no music playing. And nobody much seemed to mind that, unless they manually turned the Volume down between albums, they got a MASSIVE pop when they raised and lowered that tone arm. I remember seeing woofers actually blown out when someone put the needle down a bit too fast... with the level a bit too high... (And, more than a few times, seeing a woofer pop waaaay out, and wondering if it was OK until the next song started OK.) Nowadays, a little tick when the mode changes, and we're wondering if we should worry about it or not... Now, to be totally fair, ticks and pops always drove me crazy... But I don't recall having a big problem with plain old surface noise... And remembering to turn the volume down was no worse than remembering to step on the brake when starting the car... It was just something you did (unless you had one of the very few turntables with muting... like one or two Dual models). But times do change... and our expectations do change... To add a bit more detail about my personal experience with vinyl... My least favorite part of the experience was NOT putting down the needle and hearing a tick... My absolute least favorite part was taking that record carefully out of the jacket... And wondering if I would hear a tick or pop when I played it... And, if not, putting it back, and wondering if it would play perfectly the next time... And knowing that, if I did hear a tick or pop, my musical enjoyment would be replaced by a much less enjoyable game of "find the tick and fix it"... And, of course, also knowing that, whether I could hear it or not, my precious album was wearing a tiny bit each and every time I played it too... To me... never having to go through that again, or even wonder about it, is the single biggest benefit to digital audio... I’m sure you are very tenacious and take great care of your records. That being said, dirt cares little about what brand turntable, you spin them on. The more this topic comes up, the more I think about how much information both video and audio can be contained on the Blu-ray medium and then contemplate not even fraction of that that can be laid out on an LP and I scratch my head in amazement why anyone would bother in the 21st-century…… What can I say? That’s just me lol. By that logic, CDs are garbage because they are from the 80s and are useless compared to Blu-ray? Except, a CD can play on any working device sold since the release of a CD. Same with vinyl records. Sometimes I get the feeling people compare modern vinyl pressings to shellac 78s or something. The time distance between success and take off of stereo LPs and CDs aren't that far apart. The media is only part of it. Low quality garbage was released on CDs, and I'm sure LPs as well, but they both have great high quality versions and todays 180/200gram pressings are likely the best that have ever been released. |
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 2, 2024 21:29:29 GMT -5
I first began listening to popular music in the mid-60's and spent lots of time listening to AM radio and buying a bunch of 45's. These 45's were played on a cheap mono record player and though the sound quality wasn't very good to begin with, the needle made the records even worse-sounding. I remember hearing live music and wishing the records I had sounded like that instead of tinny and scratchy. I played those old 45's over and over and had them all memorized, even the scratches. The thing is, like Joni Mitchell sang, "songs are like tattoos." It isn't only the melodies themselves but the memories that they evoke, as you associate particular songs with specific events or eras in your life and the associated emotions that came with them. So for me, hearing the original 45 with the scratches evokes a different feeling/memory than does hearing that same song cleaned up on a CD. They can be like two different songs at times. Just wanted to throw in my two cents. And also add, vinyl has great memories for me but as a medium for sound reproduction, vinyl sucks.  |
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Post by novisnick on Jan 3, 2024 0:27:05 GMT -5
Vinyl Sucks…..Vinyl Sucks!! (No I did NOT say it twice…..) The record skipped. The other great memory I recall is walking over (ever so gently) to my turntable and EVEN on my tippy toes all too often for my tastes, would aquire a nasty static buildup that would get me like a Gremlin when I touched the tonearm. So, I would get past THAT then flip the record with the mat STUCK to it 🪦 …..RIP. 👎 |
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Post by swedishcaveman on Jan 3, 2024 4:55:59 GMT -5
Yes vinyl sucks money out of my pocket, but that is the way to make it sound grate. Every needle change on my Ortophon pickup cost a WIIM pro+. My phono setup cost circa 3000$ and are set up on a stable vibration free platform. I clean my records when I buy them in a liquid cleaner, then I brush them and the needle before every spin. So it is a lot of therapy for me to get the best out of the listening session. I do have a CD player from Emotiva, connected to my XMC2 via AES/EBU and a MAC BOOK PRO with Qobuz/ Audirvana installed connected via USB to XMC2. When playing in stereo mode with Dirac engaged, I hear three different sonic characters. On old recordings from 70 and 80, I prefer vinyl. Old CD´s are crap, but new recordings are on par with the streamed versions. New hi res versions of new recordings from Qobuz are shocking good. The bass and dynamics are killing my neighbors, I have to use a different Dirac filter for these recordings, my room get overloaded with bass. My problem with streamed music is that I skip and change recordings if I have my phone with Audirvana app at my listening position. A world of music in my hand make it so easy and I have to force my self to listened to the recording from start to stop as the artist meant it to be, if it is a concept album. So vinyl do not suck, but it is expensive and it need love and care.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jan 3, 2024 8:11:12 GMT -5
I used to borrow friends albums and make copies onto cassette way back in the day. Never really got into vinyl even though I did buy a Pioneer PL-300 that I still use today. I don't own many albums.
I remember when CD came out and how fascinated I was with the sound. The first CD players were clunky and expensive. I waited a year or so and bought a "cheap" Sansui player. Shortly thereafter Denon came out with the DCD-1500 which was all the rage. You couldn't find one anywhere. I ended up buying a Kyocera DA-710CX instead and used that for many years.
Back to vinyl...for me it's fun to play with. Just another audio avenue. Streaming...FM radio...XM Music...vinyl...CD...SACD...
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 3, 2024 9:04:57 GMT -5
At the end of the day, everything is relative when it comes to these mediums.
I absolutely loved playing records… Of course back at a time when there were no other options.
I spent 15 years doing that and being young back then the power and the influence, the music had at least as much impact (if not more) on me then than it does now.
Time marches on and those last few years before the compact DISC became a reality my popular science and popular mechanics magazines were regularly coming up with stories about the evolution of something new…… That could playback music without a needle whoa what about that?
in the inspired words of Will Smith’s character…… I have got to have me one of these!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2024 9:10:23 GMT -5
... Now, if somehow a tick or pop finds its way into the audio once in a very rare while... It could be the DAC... or something else... but I KNOW it isn't my source file...(And I have a checksum with "zero errors" to prove it.) I get plenty of odd ticks and pops - some quite loud - setting up and manipulating play back of SACDs in native format through my RMC-1L. It doesn't happen when the SACD is converted to PCM. "It could be the DAC... or something else... but I KNOW it isn't my source file..." I never heard these SACD ticks and pops when playing SACDs through my Pioneer DV-563A DVD/SACD player that was built in 2003. I still use that machine at my workbench. Cost then was $110; which were blown out for $63, a couple of years later, at Best Buy. I'm looking forward to format consolidation and stabilization. Perhaps it's format goofiness and playback problems that drives some back to LPs - It's simple and tactile, regardless of final quality. People who respond here really ought to watch the OPs video and get past the first 30 seconds... www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5rE9bNN_fsI hadn't seen that video before, but it's one of the most honest things I've seen. Life just slows down when spinning vinyl. It's an organic experince. Typing on a keyboard is faster, better in every way, but a hand written letter has more meaning. Lately, I've been listening to my older (and a few newer) CDs. It's a better experience to put a physical disk that you OWN in a player and pushing the play button, than it is using an app on a touch screen. Except, on the go obviously. I cancelled Disney+ a few months ago. Due to newer content, I'll just say, I wasn't looking forward to what they were providing. Turns out, I don't miss it at all. I'm going to go without Prime for a year, just to see what it's like. I'm going back to the physical media. I recently got Oppenheimer on 4K Blu-ray. Again, I'm enjoying owning a disk rather than streaming services that constantly change content, or only has a free 1st season... Basically, I'm going to use the money that was going to streaming services, to go back to buying CDs, movies on disk, and vinyl records. Maybe SACD if I find something I can't live without. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 3, 2024 9:26:41 GMT -5
I cancelled Disney+ a few months ago. Due to newer content, I'll just say, I wasn't looking forward to what they were providing. Turns out, I don't miss it at all. I'm going to go without Prime for a year, just to see what it's like. I'm going back to the physical media. I recently got Oppenheimer on 4K Blu-ray. Again, I'm enjoying owning a disk rather than streaming services that constantly change content, or only has a free 1st season... Basically, I'm going to use the money that was going to streaming services, to go back to buying CDs, movies on disk, and vinyl records. Maybe SACD if I find something I can't live without. I totally agree with you regarding physical disks.
Streaming is OK and the options are dwindling anyway, with the death of Netflix sending their discs to the house.
Even when we watch a streaming Netflix film, I’m one of those people who enjoys the credits with the music at the end without interruption. As soon as the Netflix streaming film ends they start selling you and you had to select for the app to play the entitle credits. Otherwise you’re sitting there getting spoonfed oh well. |
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Post by PaulBe on Jan 3, 2024 10:01:15 GMT -5
I get plenty of odd ticks and pops - some quite loud - setting up and manipulating play back of SACDs in native format through my RMC-1L. It doesn't happen when the SACD is converted to PCM. "It could be the DAC... or something else... but I KNOW it isn't my source file..." I never heard these SACD ticks and pops when playing SACDs through my Pioneer DV-563A DVD/SACD player that was built in 2003. I still use that machine at my workbench. Cost then was $110; which were blown out for $63, a couple of years later, at Best Buy. I'm looking forward to format consolidation and stabilization. Perhaps it's format goofiness and playback problems that drives some back to LPs - It's simple and tactile, regardless of final quality. People who respond here really ought to watch the OPs video and get past the first 30 seconds... www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5rE9bNN_fsI hadn't seen that video before, but it's one of the most honest things I've seen. Life just slows down when spinning vinyl. It's an organic experince. Typing on a keyboard is faster, better in every way, but a hand written letter has more meaning. Lately, I've been listening to my older (and a few newer) CDs. It's a better experience to put a physical disk that you OWN in a player and pushing the play button, than it is using an app on a touch screen. Except, on the go obviously. I cancelled Disney+ a few months ago. Due to newer content, I'll just say, I wasn't looking forward to what they were providing. Turns out, I don't miss it at all. I'm going to go without Prime for a year, just to see what it's like. I'm going back to the physical media. I recently got Oppenheimer on 4K Blu-ray. Again, I'm enjoying owning a disk rather than streaming services that constantly change content, or only has a free 1st season... Basically, I'm going to use the money that was going to streaming services, to go back to buying CDs, movies on disk, and vinyl records. Maybe SACD if I find something I can't live without. No payer subscription services for me. Disney is circling the drain and well deserved. Here is the latest nonsense from Disney: "Disney hands over the $67 billion Star Wars franchise to a Pakistani feminist activist Obaid-Chinoy on the new film she will be directing for the franchise: "We're in 2024. It's about time we have a woman shape a story in a galaxy far, far away."" From the "End Wokeness" Twitter page The last couple of Star Wars movies were a wokeness joke. The entire Disney company should be sent to "a galaxy far, far away". Hopefully to one where they can't pervert children. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 3, 2024 10:25:21 GMT -5
I hadn't seen that video before, but it's one of the most honest things I've seen. Life just slows down when spinning vinyl. It's an organic experince. Typing on a keyboard is faster, better in every way, but a hand written letter has more meaning. Lately, I've been listening to my older (and a few newer) CDs. It's a better experience to put a physical disk that you OWN in a player and pushing the play button, than it is using an app on a touch screen. Except, on the go obviously. I cancelled Disney+ a few months ago. Due to newer content, I'll just say, I wasn't looking forward to what they were providing. Turns out, I don't miss it at all. I'm going to go without Prime for a year, just to see what it's like. I'm going back to the physical media. I recently got Oppenheimer on 4K Blu-ray. Again, I'm enjoying owning a disk rather than streaming services that constantly change content, or only has a free 1st season... Basically, I'm going to use the money that was going to streaming services, to go back to buying CDs, movies on disk, and vinyl records. Maybe SACD if I find something I can't live without. No payer subscription services for me. Disney is circling the drain and well deserved. Here is the latest nonsense from Disney: "Disney hands over the $67 billion Star Wars franchise to a Pakistani feminist activist Obaid-Chinoy on the new film she will be directing for the franchise: "We're in 2024. It's about time we have a woman shape a story in a galaxy far, far away."" From the "End Wokeness" Twitter page The last couple of Star Wars movies were a wokeness joke. The entire Disney company should be sent to "a galaxy far, far away". Hopefully to one where they can't pervert children. Yeah, it’s too bad about Disney…… I often think about how Walt would’ve turned over in his grave. Had he known what they were doing to his pet. I have four favorite Star Wars movies. The fourth I’m looking to own in 3-D, but haven’t gotten a price on it yet rogue one the other three are of course the original Star Wars movies the first trilogy, after that, you can have the franchise. |
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 3, 2024 11:46:36 GMT -5
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 3, 2024 12:05:55 GMT -5
I absolutely agree with everything you said there... I really liked a few of the turntables I had back in the old days... And I have really fond memories of the Mobile Fidelity vinyl version of Dark Side of the Moon... And the vinyl remaster of Pat Benatar's album In the Heat of the Night... And The Grateful Dead American Beauty... BUT.... Now that I have at least a dozen digital versions of Dark Side of the Moon I find that I prefer at least three of them over that great vinyl version... And the 24/192k remaster of In the Heat of the Night is just incredibly good... And none of the older releases of American Beauty, on vinyl or CD, compares to the version that was part of the 24/192k Grateful Dead studio set from HDTracks... I first began listening to popular music in the mid-60's and spent lots of time listening to AM radio and buying a bunch of 45's. These 45's were played on a cheap mono record player and though the sound quality wasn't very good to begin with, the needle made the records even worse-sounding. I remember hearing live music and wishing the records I had sounded like that instead of tinny and scratchy. I played those old 45's over and over and had them all memorized, even the scratches. The thing is, like Joni Mitchell sang, "songs are like tattoos." It isn't only the melodies themselves but the memories that they evoke, as you associate particular songs with specific events or eras in your life and the associated emotions that came with them. So for me, hearing the original 45 with the scratches evokes a different feeling/memory than does hearing that same song cleaned up on a CD. They can be like two different songs at times. Just wanted to throw in my two cents. And also add, vinyl has great memories for me but as a medium for sound reproduction, vinyl sucks. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 3, 2024 16:50:28 GMT -5
If you're feeling nostalgic for ticks, pops, and the occasional downright impressive thump... then try vinyl. But seriously... You could actually blow your woofer right across the room if you forgot to lower the volume before you put that needle down... But, oddly, I can't remember the last time I heard someone complain that this was "a deal breaker" for vinyl... There were one or two turntables that actually had a mechanical muting switch... including a few models from Dual... but only a tiny percentage... (And I don't recall anyone ever panning an expensive turntable for not having a muting switch...) And, yes, it's a lot more difficult to switch smoothly between content when you have to deal with a lot of very different formats... (If you only support one format then you don't have to worry about noises when switching between the formats you support...) (In the case of DSD content it has to be routed to the DAC chip using an entirely different signal path than PCM content.) I get plenty of odd ticks and pops - some quite loud - setting up and manipulating play back of SACDs in native format through my RMC-1L. It doesn't happen when the SACD is converted to PCM. "It could be the DAC... or something else... but I KNOW it isn't my source file..." I never heard these SACD ticks and pops when playing SACDs through my Pioneer DV-563A DVD/SACD player that was built in 2003. I still use that machine at my workbench. Cost then was $110; which were blown out for $63, a couple of years later, at Best Buy. I'm looking forward to format consolidation and stabilization. Perhaps it's format goofiness and playback problems that drives some back to LPs - It's simple and tactile, regardless of final quality. People who respond here really ought to watch the OPs video and get past the first 30 seconds... www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5rE9bNN_fsI hadn't seen that video before, but it's one of the most honest things I've seen. Life just slows down when spinning vinyl. It's an organic experince. Typing on a keyboard is faster, better in every way, but a hand written letter has more meaning. Lately, I've been listening to my older (and a few newer) CDs. It's a better experience to put a physical disk that you OWN in a player and pushing the play button, than it is using an app on a touch screen. Except, on the go obviously. I cancelled Disney+ a few months ago. Due to newer content, I'll just say, I wasn't looking forward to what they were providing. Turns out, I don't miss it at all. I'm going to go without Prime for a year, just to see what it's like. I'm going back to the physical media. I recently got Oppenheimer on 4K Blu-ray. Again, I'm enjoying owning a disk rather than streaming services that constantly change content, or only has a free 1st season... Basically, I'm going to use the money that was going to streaming services, to go back to buying CDs, movies on disk, and vinyl records. Maybe SACD if I find something I can't live without. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2024 19:30:07 GMT -5
If you're feeling nostalgic for ticks, pops, and the occasional downright impressive thump... then try vinyl. But seriously... You could actually blow your woofer right across the room if you forgot to lower the volume before you put that needle down... But, oddly, I can't remember the last time I heard someone complain that this was "a deal breaker" for vinyl... There were one or two turntables that actually had a mechanical muting switch... including a few models from Dual... but only a tiny percentage... (And I don't recall anyone ever panning an expensive turntable for not having a muting switch...) And, yes, it's a lot more difficult to switch smoothly between content when you have to deal with a lot of very different formats... (If you only support one format then you don't have to worry about noises when switching between the formats you support...) (In the case of DSD content it has to be routed to the DAC chip using an entirely different signal path than PCM content.) I hadn't seen that video before, but it's one of the most honest things I've seen. Life just slows down when spinning vinyl. It's an organic experince. Typing on a keyboard is faster, better in every way, but a hand written letter has more meaning. Lately, I've been listening to my older (and a few newer) CDs. It's a better experience to put a physical disk that you OWN in a player and pushing the play button, than it is using an app on a touch screen. Except, on the go obviously. I cancelled Disney+ a few months ago. Due to newer content, I'll just say, I wasn't looking forward to what they were providing. Turns out, I don't miss it at all. I'm going to go without Prime for a year, just to see what it's like. I'm going back to the physical media. I recently got Oppenheimer on 4K Blu-ray. Again, I'm enjoying owning a disk rather than streaming services that constantly change content, or only has a free 1st season... Basically, I'm going to use the money that was going to streaming services, to go back to buying CDs, movies on disk, and vinyl records. Maybe SACD if I find something I can't live without. A rubber/cork mat greatly reduces static, and static is responsible for most cracks and pops. Dirt can play a roll too, but I genuinely believe your experiences are outdated. If you still have a vinyl collection, try some modern cleaning and carbon brushes before playing. I'm old enough to remember all the cracks and pops, and I'd be lying to say that they go away 100%, but a clean non static play back is 95%+ better that what I thought they could do. From reading some of the post, I just feel like experiences are outdated and wrong. If you don't want to try vinyl again, that is fine. I just feel like some of the bashing is from 20 years ago, and no longer apply, or is invalid. Is Vinyl a magical media that takes you to audio nirvana? No. Does it suck? Quality pressings, absolutely NOT!!! |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 3, 2024 19:50:28 GMT -5
The need to seek out 21st century click pop solutions for a medium that’s been out there since before most of us were born tells you everything you need to know about records… Somehow they just won’t die because there’s still a lot of people who are resolved to working instead of listening oh well
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2024 20:00:00 GMT -5
The need to seek out 21st century click pop solutions for a medium that’s been out there since before most of us were born tells you everything you need to know about records… Somehow they just won’t die because there’s still a lot of people who are resolved to working instead of listening oh well Getting rid of static isn't a solution. It's a matter of fact. It's clear you HATE vinyl records. What I don't get is your need to be so involved in bashing something you don't want to have anything to do with. I don't want to drive a Corolla, but I don't wast my time on Toyota forums talking about something I don't care about. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 3, 2024 20:09:01 GMT -5
The need to seek out 21st century click pop solutions for a medium that’s been out there since before most of us were born tells you everything you need to know about records… Somehow they just won’t die because there’s still a lot of people who are resolved to working instead of listening oh well Getting rid of static isn't a solution. It's a matter of fact. It's clear you HATE vinyl records. What I don't get is your need to be so involved in bashing something you don't want to have anything to do with. I don't want to drive a Corolla, but I don't wast my time on Toyota forums talking about something I don't care about. The only thing that I could suggest to you respectfully would be to go back to the very first post of this thread created by Andrew Robinson. The thread title itself requires me to be involved. I don’t hate records… No, not at all that’s how we all started and one thing leads to another. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2024 20:14:56 GMT -5
Vinyl Sucks…..Vinyl Sucks!! (No I did NOT say it twice…..) The record skipped. The other great memory I recall is walking over (ever so gently) to my turntable and EVEN on my tippy toes all too often for my tastes, would aquire a nasty static buildup that would get me like a Gremlin when I touched the tonearm. So, I would get past THAT then flip the record with the mat STUCK to it 🪦 …..RIP. I can only go by your recent post. I don't have any records that skip. Nor does my record stick to a rubber/cork mat. You just seem to do a lot of vinyl bashing. I was confused by your RIP comment. Are you not flip flopping? |
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