|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jan 3, 2024 20:23:14 GMT -5
Vinyl Sucks…..Vinyl Sucks!! (No I did NOT say it twice…..) The record skipped. The other great memory I recall is walking over (ever so gently) to my turntable and EVEN on my tippy toes all too often for my tastes, would aquire a nasty static buildup that would get me like a Gremlin when I touched the tonearm. So, I would get past THAT then flip the record with the mat STUCK to it 🪦 …..RIP. I can only go by your recent post. I don't have any records that skip. Nor does my record stick to a rubber/cork mat. You just seem to do a lot of vinyl bashing. I was confused by your RIP comment. Are you not flip flopping? Perhaps it was because my listening room back in the day was unusually dry or something about the rug generated, excessive static electricity, whatever it was the problems I was having at the time I was most involved with records, which is all there was at the time was absolutely unnerving. So moving forward later on with a new medium that resolved all of those issues no more cleaning and no more bother was a revelation indeed as it was, I believe for most people who went from records to digital. no flip-flopping. No not at all… RIP means just that rest in peace records I don’t hate them. I’m just done with them because the future is here and it’s been here for a long time so wonderful to be able to kick back and listen for more than 10 minutes with no work to do Actually the reel to reel Tape machine that I was using a very fine. Tanberg was my first journey into long time kick back and listen without all the fuss between that and cassettes. I was well on my way. |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Jan 3, 2024 21:48:10 GMT -5
If you're feeling nostalgic for ticks, pops, and the occasional downright impressive thump... then try vinyl. But seriously... You could actually blow your woofer right across the room if you forgot to lower the volume before you put that needle down... But, oddly, I can't remember the last time I heard someone complain that this was "a deal breaker" for vinyl... There were one or two turntables that actually had a mechanical muting switch... including a few models from Dual... but only a tiny percentage... (And I don't recall anyone ever panning an expensive turntable for not having a muting switch...) And, yes, it's a lot more difficult to switch smoothly between content when you have to deal with a lot of very different formats... (If you only support one format then you don't have to worry about noises when switching between the formats you support...) (In the case of DSD content it has to be routed to the DAC chip using an entirely different signal path than PCM content.) A rubber/cork mat greatly reduces static, and static is responsible for most cracks and pops. Dirt can play a roll too, but I genuinely believe your experiences are outdated. If you still have a vinyl collection, try some modern cleaning and carbon brushes before playing. I'm old enough to remember all the cracks and pops, and I'd be lying to say that they go away 100%, but a clean non static play back is 95%+ better that what I thought they could do. From reading some of the post, I just feel like experiences are outdated and wrong. If you don't want to try vinyl again, that is fine. I just feel like some of the bashing is from 20 years ago, and no longer apply, or is invalid. Is Vinyl a magical media that takes you to audio nirvana? No. Does it suck? Quality pressings, absolutely NOT!!! I have a few different mats - An Oracle Groove Isolator. An Audioquest sorbothane mat. A Marcof Electronics Glassmat. A discwasher D'Stat II mat. The original Rega felt mat. They all have a sound. the D'Stat II does lower pops and ticks a little when the air is dry. I have a couple of different pucks too. Carbon fiber brushes. Solutions. Etc. Used to clean all new LPs with a Keith Monks record cleaner. Then, I bought my own vacuum cleaning device. It finally died from lack of use. I don't recall the manufacturer. Right now, I'm playing a Sound Storage Recording Company LP made in 1980. A Blumlein recording. No ticks or pops. I have a note on the sleeve stating it was cleaned with the Keith Monks machine in April of 1981. Very pleasant. The Rega table has the Audioquest sorbothane mat on the platter. My woofers never pucker when I lower the tonearm. Just a small tick when the stylus hits the lead-in groove. See ya'll later. Time for the B-side...  |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jan 3, 2024 22:37:48 GMT -5
A rubber/cork mat greatly reduces static, and static is responsible for most cracks and pops. Dirt can play a roll too, but I genuinely believe your experiences are outdated. If you still have a vinyl collection, try some modern cleaning and carbon brushes before playing. I'm old enough to remember all the cracks and pops, and I'd be lying to say that they go away 100%, but a clean non static play back is 95%+ better that what I thought they could do. From reading some of the post, I just feel like experiences are outdated and wrong. If you don't want to try vinyl again, that is fine. I just feel like some of the bashing is from 20 years ago, and no longer apply, or is invalid. Is Vinyl a magical media that takes you to audio nirvana? No. Does it suck? Quality pressings, absolutely NOT!!! I have a few different mats - An Oracle Groove Isolator. An Audioquest sorbothane mat. A Marcof Electronics Glassmat. A discwasher D'Stat II mat. The original Rega felt mat. They all have a sound. the D'Stat II does lower pops and ticks a little when the air is dry. I have a couple of different pucks too. Carbon fiber brushes. Solutions. Etc. Used to clean all new LPs with a Keith Monks record cleaner. Then, I bought my own vacuum cleaning device. It finally died from lack of use. I don't recall the manufacturer. Right now, I'm playing a Sound Storage Recording Company LP made in 1980. A Blumlein recording. No ticks or pops. I have a note on the sleeve stating it was cleaned with the Keith Monks machine in April of 1981. Very pleasant. The Rega table has the Audioquest sorbothane mat on the platter. My woofers never pucker when I lower the tonearm. Just a small tick when the stylus hits the lead-in groove. See ya'll later. Time for the B-side... I commend you for having the energy to even get to the B side after all of that. It’s even a challenge to pronounce all of those adjectives associated with all of that gear implemented to maintain a record… Wow! |
|
cawgijoe
Emo VIPs 
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,032
|
Post by cawgijoe on Jan 4, 2024 7:50:51 GMT -5
I have a few different mats - An Oracle Groove Isolator. An Audioquest sorbothane mat. A Marcof Electronics Glassmat. A discwasher D'Stat II mat. The original Rega felt mat. They all have a sound. the D'Stat II does lower pops and ticks a little when the air is dry. I have a couple of different pucks too. Carbon fiber brushes. Solutions. Etc. Used to clean all new LPs with a Keith Monks record cleaner. Then, I bought my own vacuum cleaning device. It finally died from lack of use. I don't recall the manufacturer. Right now, I'm playing a Sound Storage Recording Company LP made in 1980. A Blumlein recording. No ticks or pops. I have a note on the sleeve stating it was cleaned with the Keith Monks machine in April of 1981. Very pleasant. The Rega table has the Audioquest sorbothane mat on the platter. My woofers never pucker when I lower the tonearm. Just a small tick when the stylus hits the lead-in groove. See ya'll later. Time for the B-side... I commend you for having the energy to even get to the B side after all of that. It’s even a challenge to pronounce all of those adjectives associated with all of that gear implemented to maintain a record… Wow! Some people absolutely love all these items...kind of like all the items you need to maintain a finely tuned race car! |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jan 4, 2024 8:06:48 GMT -5
I commend you for having the energy to even get to the B side after all of that. It’s even a challenge to pronounce all of those adjectives associated with all of that gear implemented to maintain a record… Wow! Some people absolutely love all these items...kind of like all the items you need to maintain a finely tuned race car! Well, of course I get what you’re saying (been there)…. When I was done with all of this, I gave my Stanton 681 EEE (Shibata stylus in tow) cartridge to a friend of mine. He keeps the sport going, And has a pre-amplifier for his turntable that he built that contains a 9 V battery. As if there wasn’t enough to contend with, he needs to worry about that and every time his son plays with it and leaves it the battery goes dead. This guy is no slouch and is a professor of electrical engineering at rather prestigious college and yet still he futzes with that lol. |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Jan 4, 2024 9:43:51 GMT -5
Some people absolutely love all these items...kind of like all the items you need to maintain a finely tuned race car! Well, of course I get what you’re saying (been there)…. When I was done with all of this, I gave my Stanton 681 EEE (Shibata stylus in tow) cartridge to a friend of mine. He keeps the sport going, And has a pre-amplifier for his turntable that he built that contains a 9 V battery. As if there wasn’t enough to contend with, he needs to worry about that and every time his son plays with it and leaves it the battery goes dead. This guy is no slouch and is a professor of electrical engineering at rather prestigious college and yet still he futzes with that lol. My first good phono cartridge was a Stanton 681 EEE - elliptical stylus. My first good phono preamp was a SOTA. Cylindrical can that was powered by 2 D cell batteries. 2 D cells lasted about 6 months. |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Jan 4, 2024 9:45:04 GMT -5
I can laugh at both sides of any debate here. I think it’s best to consider other possibilities than debate. Playing LPs can be an exercise that uses as many accouterments as a woman has in her personal care kit. Playing LPs is like spending time with an old friend. It’s comfortably consistent. It has known flaws but you love it anyway despite the flaws. Take my wife… Please. It takes about the same amount of time to select and play an LP, CD, or Blu-ray. The difference is how often the system needs my input. I played several LPs last night. Having to get up every 20 minutes to change a side, or put on a different LP, did take a little more time. If I go to see a live concert, or a movie at the theater, the time involved is usually at least twice the time of the concert or movie. The cost has become outrageous. The noisy crowd is far louder than any LP tick and pop – AND, turn OFF that dang cellphone! The input required to setup HT is far more time consuming and costly than playing LPs. HT with my RMC-1L seems to have its… Moods. There are times I have to unload the disc and look at the title to make sure I didn’t insert one of the ‘Resident Evil’ movies instead of Willie Nelson’s ‘Stardust’. We all have rituals as part of our lives. I like French Press coffee in the morning. I grind beans. Boil and add hot water and fresh coffee grounds to the beaker. Wait. Press the grounds to the bottom of the beaker. Wait. Then. Finally. I pour and enjoy the best Morning Blend coffee. All other coffee making systems are just... You know what I mean if you understand good coffee. If you don’t understand, that is OK. Everyone has their limitations. HT has its own rituals and issues. How much time and energy is spent trying to ‘get it right’ - Components; Processing possibilities and foibles; Rooms/Acoustics; Room Correction; New Audio Myths to sort out? MONEY. The EIC (Entertainment Industrial Complex) is more ‘complex’ than it ever was. Folks, it’s a hobby. Enjoy all of it. Some of it is magical. Stay away from the majik. |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jan 4, 2024 9:58:34 GMT -5
[quote author=" PaulBe" ”Folks, it’s a hobby. Enjoy all of it.” ……Save those record cleaning duties “ Merry Maids” Can handle that!( They’re coming on Tuesday) |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jan 4, 2024 10:22:26 GMT -5
“I like French Press coffee in the morning. I grind beans. Boil and add hot water and fresh coffee grounds to the beaker. Wait. Press the grounds to the bottom of the beaker. Wait. Then. Finally. I pour and enjoy the best Morning Blend coffee. All other coffee making systems are just... You know what I mean if you understand good coffee. If you don’t understand, that is OK. Everyone has their limitations. “ if I can’t make my own in the a.m., I migrate to either 7-Eleven or Dunkin’ Donuts.I do my very best to make sure that doesn’t happen. the real secret for good regular coffee is to get the water to pass through those grinds just as quickly as possible. Nobody does that better than Bunn. their newest machine came up with the way to run the water through the coffee without having a second holding tank of preheated water. It’s got a valve inside that opens like the thermostat in your car. Very cool! When the water gets up the temperature over 200° it dumps the whole load at once through the grinds. I’m in my glory |
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,256
|
Post by KeithL on Jan 4, 2024 11:55:39 GMT -5
I always liked the grey felt D'stat II mat. (But do note that the thickness of the mat you use will affect the vertical tracking angle a little bit.) The one thing I noticed about it was that, while it is antistatic, it is not highly conductive. For proper static control you want something that is conductive... but that actually has a somewhat high bulk resistance to avoid large sudden discharges. You want it to "drain away the static charge" but not to encourage sudden big static sparks to ground through it. However, in order for any anti-static mat to work, it must have a ground path through which the static charge can eventually drain away. This can be a problem with some modern turntables that have acrylic, glass, or MDF platters; MDF is an insulator and clear acrylic and glass are both near perfect insulators. (One of the reasons albums are black is that conductive carbon is added to the otherwise clear vinyl to help minimize static issues.) And, if you have a platter that is NOT conductive, the only path through which the static can drain is through the mat and into the metal center spindle. And this can reduce the effectiveness of some antistatic mats quite a lot. I found that, in situations like this, it helped to put a sheet of thin aluminum foil UNDER the felt mat (making sure that it contacts the metal center spindle). This provides a conductive path from the entire underside of the mat to the center spindle. (And, sandwiched between the felt and the platter, the foil cannot vibrate or do anything else that would contribute to the sound.) I also found the ZeroStat (anti-static pistol thing) to be quite effective... when used properly. I would be VERY careful of Sorbothane... I haven't seen Audioquest's mat... but I would want to see something between the Sorbothane and the surface of the vinyl... I really don't think I would want Sorbothane contacting vinyl... Sorbothane is exceptionally good at absorbing and dissipating vibration... Which makes it great to put under feet, or in feet, or between layers of other materials, for vibration damping... BUT it is very high in plasticizer content... which is why it's sticky... and why it will actually soak into and mar wooden surfaces over time... I don't know how contact with Sorbothane would affect vinyl... but I don't think I would want to find out. (It might leave a sticky residue or even actually soften the surface over time.) You also need to be careful about cleaning compounds and surface cleaning... Some are quite safe and work quite well... (I would trust D'Stat liquid or distilled water). But some may actually attack the vinyl... And others may leave a residue that attracts and holds dust... (So, while they seem to work great, once you use them, you pretty much have to use them every time you play that album.) There also are (or used to be) devices that actually applied a thin film of water ahead of the stylus... So the stylus was actually playing "under water" while any dust present was "floated away from the surface" and stylus resonances were also damped. These tended to work really well... when playing the album... and made even scratched albums play quietly. But, again, since any dirt present tended to adhere once the surface dried, once you used one, you pretty well had to CONTINUE to use it each time. (Or give that album a really thorough wet cleaning before playing it "dry" again.) Again... to me... Lots of cool tech... But I'm kind of happier NOT having to worry about it now... A rubber/cork mat greatly reduces static, and static is responsible for most cracks and pops. Dirt can play a roll too, but I genuinely believe your experiences are outdated. If you still have a vinyl collection, try some modern cleaning and carbon brushes before playing. I'm old enough to remember all the cracks and pops, and I'd be lying to say that they go away 100%, but a clean non static play back is 95%+ better that what I thought they could do. From reading some of the post, I just feel like experiences are outdated and wrong. If you don't want to try vinyl again, that is fine. I just feel like some of the bashing is from 20 years ago, and no longer apply, or is invalid. Is Vinyl a magical media that takes you to audio nirvana? No. Does it suck? Quality pressings, absolutely NOT!!! I have a few different mats - An Oracle Groove Isolator. An Audioquest sorbothane mat. A Marcof Electronics Glassmat. A discwasher D'Stat II mat. The original Rega felt mat. They all have a sound. the D'Stat II does lower pops and ticks a little when the air is dry. I have a couple of different pucks too. Carbon fiber brushes. Solutions. Etc. Used to clean all new LPs with a Keith Monks record cleaner. Then, I bought my own vacuum cleaning device. It finally died from lack of use. I don't recall the manufacturer. Right now, I'm playing a Sound Storage Recording Company LP made in 1980. A Blumlein recording. No ticks or pops. I have a note on the sleeve stating it was cleaned with the Keith Monks machine in April of 1981. Very pleasant. The Rega table has the Audioquest sorbothane mat on the platter. My woofers never pucker when I lower the tonearm. Just a small tick when the stylus hits the lead-in groove. See ya'll later. Time for the B-side... |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Jan 4, 2024 13:03:48 GMT -5
I always liked the grey felt D'stat II mat. (But do note that the thickness of the mat you use will affect the vertical tracking angle a little bit.) The one thing I noticed about it was that, while it is antistatic, it is not highly conductive. For proper static control you want something that is conductive... but that actually has a somewhat high bulk resistance to avoid large sudden discharges. You want it to "drain away the static charge" but not to encourage sudden big static sparks to ground through it. However, in order for any anti-static mat to work, it must have a ground path through which the static charge can eventually drain away. This can be a problem with some modern turntables that have acrylic, glass, or MDF platters; MDF is an insulator and clear acrylic and glass are both near perfect insulators. (One of the reasons albums are black is that conductive carbon is added to the otherwise clear vinyl to help minimize static issues.) And, if you have a platter that is NOT conductive, the only path through which the static can drain is through the mat and into the metal center spindle. And this can reduce the effectiveness of some antistatic mats quite a lot. I found that, in situations like this, it helped to put a sheet of thin aluminum foil UNDER the felt mat (making sure that it contacts the metal center spindle). This provides a conductive path from the entire underside of the mat to the center spindle. (And, sandwiched between the felt and the platter, the foil cannot vibrate or do anything else that would contribute to the sound.) I also found the ZeroStat (anti-static pistol thing) to be quite effective... when used properly. I would be VERY careful of Sorbothane... I haven't seen Audioquest's mat... but I would want to see something between the Sorbothane and the surface of the vinyl... I really don't think I would want Sorbothane contacting vinyl... Sorbothane is exceptionally good at absorbing and dissipating vibration... Which makes it great to put under feet, or in feet, or between layers of other materials, for vibration damping... BUT it is very high in plasticizer content... which is why it's sticky... and why it will actually soak into and mar wooden surfaces over time... I don't know how contact with Sorbothane would affect vinyl... but I don't think I would want to find out. (It might leave a sticky residue or even actually soften the surface over time.) You also need to be careful about cleaning compounds and surface cleaning... Some are quite safe and work quite well... (I would trust D'Stat liquid or distilled water). But some may actually attack the vinyl... And others may leave a residue that attracts and holds dust... (So, while they seem to work great, once you use them, you pretty much have to use them every time you play that album.) There also are (or used to be) devices that actually applied a thin film of water ahead of the stylus... So the stylus was actually playing "under water" while any dust present was "floated away from the surface" and stylus resonances were also damped. These tended to work really well... when playing the album... and made even scratched albums play quietly. But, again, since any dirt present tended to adhere once the surface dried, once you used one, you pretty well had to CONTINUE to use it each time. (Or give that album a really thorough wet cleaning before playing it "dry" again.) Again... to me... Lots of cool tech... But I'm kind of happier NOT having to worry about it now... I have a few different mats - An Oracle Groove Isolator. An Audioquest sorbothane mat. A Marcof Electronics Glassmat. A discwasher D'Stat II mat. The original Rega felt mat. They all have a sound. the D'Stat II does lower pops and ticks a little when the air is dry. I have a couple of different pucks too. Carbon fiber brushes. Solutions. Etc. Used to clean all new LPs with a Keith Monks record cleaner. Then, I bought my own vacuum cleaning device. It finally died from lack of use. I don't recall the manufacturer. Right now, I'm playing a Sound Storage Recording Company LP made in 1980. A Blumlein recording. No ticks or pops. I have a note on the sleeve stating it was cleaned with the Keith Monks machine in April of 1981. Very pleasant. The Rega table has the Audioquest sorbothane mat on the platter. My woofers never pucker when I lower the tonearm. Just a small tick when the stylus hits the lead-in groove. See ya'll later. Time for the B-side... I’ve been meaning to retry the different mats I have. It’s been a while. I can do VTA adjust on the fly with my Grado Signature arm, and compensate for mat thickness. The Rega has a plastic spindle and integrated plastic pulley. No current path there. I know there are metal upgrades, but still no current path from metal spindle through a MDF base. No current path in most turntables from spindle to ground regardless of platter and spindle composition. The grounded brush on a Shure V15 cartridge was a good idea but had its own secondary sound problems. I was kind of miffed when Shure sold its last V15 type 5 stock to the Library of Congress – the result was I couldn’t replace my ‘relatively’ inexpensive stylus. The D'stat II mat has to have some distributed bulk resistance to be effective. Since an LP can carry a local charge, the carbon in the LP can’t produce much conductivity. I thought the carbon black was mostly for consistent color – cosmetic. Looking at a black LP under black light is interesting. Besides, everything is a conductor with a 25Kv charge on it. I have a Zero-Stat pistol too. It sits in the box. I had an Oracle turntable before the Rega. It came with a sorbothane mat and screw clamp. The Rega is almost as good without the finicky nature of the Oracle; and a lot less expensive. I see your potential problems with sorbothane mats. I see little deterioration in my sorbothane mats, and no residue left on any LPs. My Oracle Groove Isolator sorbothane mat is still new in the container – almost 40 years old. Occassionally I wash the platter and Audioquest sorbothane mat with plain warm water and dry the thing with a flour sack towel. I do wonder if the platter/LP interface would be just as good with a felt mat… The glass Rega platter has a ring to it even with the sorbothane mat. These days, I play LPs dry with no additional cleaning other than a carbon fiber brush, and a small soft brush to remove fuzz from the stylus. I don’t miss the rest of the ritual and it keeps things simple. No worries… |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2024 16:16:04 GMT -5
I can laugh at both sides of any debate here. I think it’s best to consider other possibilities than debate. Playing LPs can be an exercise that uses as many accouterments as a woman has in her personal care kit. Playing LPs is like spending time with an old friend. It’s comfortably consistent. It has known flaws but you love it anyway despite the flaws. Take my wife… Please. It takes about the same amount of time to select and play an LP, CD, or Blu-ray. The difference is how often the system needs my input. I played several LPs last night. Having to get up every 20 minutes to change a side, or put on a different LP, did take a little more time. If I go to see a live concert, or a movie at the theater, the time involved is usually at least twice the time of the concert or movie. The cost has become outrageous. The noisy crowd is far louder than any LP tick and pop – AND, turn OFF that dang cellphone! The input required to setup HT is far more time consuming and costly than playing LPs. HT with my RMC-1L seems to have its… Moods. There are times I have to unload the disc and look at the title to make sure I didn’t insert one of the ‘Resident Evil’ movies instead of Willie Nelson’s ‘Stardust’. We all have rituals as part of our lives. I like French Press coffee in the morning. I grind beans. Boil and add hot water and fresh coffee grounds to the beaker. Wait. Press the grounds to the bottom of the beaker. Wait. Then. Finally. I pour and enjoy the best Morning Blend coffee. All other coffee making systems are just... You know what I mean if you understand good coffee. If you don’t understand, that is OK. Everyone has their limitations. HT has its own rituals and issues. How much time and energy is spent trying to ‘get it right’ - Components; Processing possibilities and foibles; Rooms/Acoustics; Room Correction; New Audio Myths to sort out? MONEY. The EIC (Entertainment Industrial Complex) is more ‘complex’ than it ever was. Folks, it’s a hobby. Enjoy all of it. Some of it is magical. Stay away from the majik. Well said, and I only have time to listen to vinyl on weekends and when I'm in the mood. I also don't have an overly impressive collection. I only added two last year. I bought one, and I was gifted one. If anyone hasn't seen the documentary, Sound City, I high recommend it. It was the last analog studio, and they didn't close till 2011. I think people would be surprised as to how many famous albums were recorded in that one studio. Dave Grohl ended up saving the equipment and restoring it for his personal studio, so it still lives on. I wish my sister had kept all her old classic rock albums. I guess it comes down to opinion, but I feel that some of the older stuff was mixed for LP and tape and can actually sound better on those media. Earlier non mastered CD transfers can be good too, but remastered stuff just makes it louder, not better. Modern remasters can just down right suck. So, if you have it, keep it and enjoy it. I had no idea that Nirvana Nevermind was recorded at Sound City till I saw the movie. I have the original CD release and I listened to it shortly after watching the movie. It has a completely different sound than modern recordings. The movie goes into more technical ways how they could soft clip drums get a sound that only analog can produce. I'm sure it's possible now days to reproduce that with software, but I don't know if they actually do or not. Point being, analog didn't end that long ago. Vinyl is the anti loudness wars media. We live in an age where digital should be king, but in reality, the best media is a release that has the closest release how the original artist and mixing master wanted it. Sadly, that can be older CDs before remastered releases, and vinyl. Or a tape, but I don't have a tape deck and I lost track of my tapes. |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jan 5, 2024 9:53:19 GMT -5
I can laugh at both sides of any debate here. I think it’s best to consider other possibilities than debate. Playing LPs can be an exercise that uses as many accouterments as a woman has in her personal care kit. Playing LPs is like spending time with an old friend. It’s comfortably consistent. It has known flaws but you love it anyway despite the flaws. Take my wife… Please. It takes about the same amount of time to select and play an LP, CD, or Blu-ray. The difference is how often the system needs my input. I played several LPs last night. Having to get up every 20 minutes to change a side, or put on a different LP, did take a little more time. If I go to see a live concert, or a movie at the theater, the time involved is usually at least twice the time of the concert or movie. The cost has become outrageous. The noisy crowd is far louder than any LP tick and pop – AND, turn OFF that dang cellphone! The input required to setup HT is far more time consuming and costly than playing LPs. HT with my RMC-1L seems to have its… Moods. There are times I have to unload the disc and look at the title to make sure I didn’t insert one of the ‘Resident Evil’ movies instead of Willie Nelson’s ‘Stardust’. We all have rituals as part of our lives. I like French Press coffee in the morning. I grind beans. Boil and add hot water and fresh coffee grounds to the beaker. Wait. Press the grounds to the bottom of the beaker. Wait. Then. Finally. I pour and enjoy the best Morning Blend coffee. All other coffee making systems are just... You know what I mean if you understand good coffee. If you don’t understand, that is OK. Everyone has their limitations. HT has its own rituals and issues. How much time and energy is spent trying to ‘get it right’ - Components; Processing possibilities and foibles; Rooms/Acoustics; Room Correction; New Audio Myths to sort out? MONEY. The EIC (Entertainment Industrial Complex) is more ‘complex’ than it ever was. Folks, it’s a hobby. Enjoy all of it. Some of it is magical. Stay away from the majik. Well said, and I only have time to listen to vinyl on weekends and when I'm in the mood. I also don't have an overly impressive collection. I only added two last year. I bought one, and I was gifted one. If anyone hasn't seen the documentary, Sound City, I high recommend it. It was the last analog studio, and they didn't close till 2011. I think people would be surprised as to how many famous albums were recorded in that one studio. Dave Grohl ended up saving the equipment and restoring it for his personal studio, so it still lives on. I wish my sister had kept all her old classic rock albums. I guess it comes down to opinion, but I feel that some of the older stuff was mixed for LP and tape and can actually sound better on those media. Earlier non mastered CD transfers can be good too, but remastered stuff just makes it louder, not better. Modern remasters can just down right suck. So, if you have it, keep it and enjoy it. I had no idea that Nirvana Nevermind was recorded at Sound City till I saw the movie. I have the original CD release and I listened to it shortly after watching the movie. It has a completely different sound than modern recordings. The movie goes into more technical ways how they could soft clip drums get a sound that only analog can produce. I'm sure it's possible now days to reproduce that with software, but I don't know if they actually do or not. Point being, analog didn't end that long ago. Vinyl is the anti loudness wars media. We live in an age where digital should be king, but in reality, the best media is a release that has the closest release how the original artist and mixing master wanted it. Sadly, that can be older CDs before remastered releases, and vinyl. Or a tape, but I don't have a tape deck and I lost track of my tapes. ……..Point being?!?! those thoughts here are so rambling, that the point here is tough to grasp IMHO (no bad intentions…..)
The other day I listened to an Atmos mix rendered in ultra high definition, sound without atmos processing.
All I can say, is anyone who thinks the past way of recording and doing things is superior fell asleep at the last staff meeting. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2024 10:16:36 GMT -5
Well said, and I only have time to listen to vinyl on weekends and when I'm in the mood. I also don't have an overly impressive collection. I only added two last year. I bought one, and I was gifted one. If anyone hasn't seen the documentary, Sound City, I high recommend it. It was the last analog studio, and they didn't close till 2011. I think people would be surprised as to how many famous albums were recorded in that one studio. Dave Grohl ended up saving the equipment and restoring it for his personal studio, so it still lives on. I wish my sister had kept all her old classic rock albums. I guess it comes down to opinion, but I feel that some of the older stuff was mixed for LP and tape and can actually sound better on those media. Earlier non mastered CD transfers can be good too, but remastered stuff just makes it louder, not better. Modern remasters can just down right suck. So, if you have it, keep it and enjoy it. I had no idea that Nirvana Nevermind was recorded at Sound City till I saw the movie. I have the original CD release and I listened to it shortly after watching the movie. It has a completely different sound than modern recordings. The movie goes into more technical ways how they could soft clip drums get a sound that only analog can produce. I'm sure it's possible now days to reproduce that with software, but I don't know if they actually do or not. Point being, analog didn't end that long ago. Vinyl is the anti loudness wars media. We live in an age where digital should be king, but in reality, the best media is a release that has the closest release how the original artist and mixing master wanted it. Sadly, that can be older CDs before remastered releases, and vinyl. Or a tape, but I don't have a tape deck and I lost track of my tapes. ……..Point being?!?! the thoughts are so rambling, but the point here is tough to grasp IMHO (no bad intentions…..)
The other day I listened to an Atmos mix rendered in ultra high definition, sound without atmos processing.
All I can say, is anyone who thinks the past way of recording and doing things is superior fell asleep at the last staff meeting. I never said analog was superior. Simply that it didn't die that long ago. Not sure why you bring up Atmos, but how can you listen to a Atmos mix without Atmos processing? www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fwMneAnfycAtmos was meant for movies, not music. Taking a stereo mix and butchering it to Atmos is not an improvement. Now, if the artist and audio engineer planned and recorded an Atmos album, then that would be different, but has anyone actually done that? I'll try and say my point in a different way, but this will be my last attempt. If you can't comprehend it, then that is on you. Analog mixes were recorded in a specific way. It was limited to the master tape, but audio engineers had a talent that no longer exists today. Go watch Sound City. When modern remasters simply make something louder, it can be butchered and suck. I can't find a source atm, but I've read that many remasters also go back to early digital sources, and rarely go back to the master tapes. That just cost too much. So the best sources of older music recorded in analog are older analog sources (vinyl and tape) and possibly early CDs that didn't suck. If you like the loudness wars and don't care, go for it, but IMO it's gotten out of hand. If you want to hear the way it was originally mixed and care about the art of album mastering, then old analog sources or early CDs it is. A few AAD CDs did sound good, but many were also horrible. This is obviously for older music, or anything recorded at Sound City before they closed. |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jan 5, 2024 11:08:21 GMT -5
……..Point being?!?! the thoughts are so rambling, but the point here is tough to grasp IMHO (no bad intentions…..)
The other day I listened to an Atmos mix rendered in ultra high definition, sound without atmos processing.
All I can say, is anyone who thinks the past way of recording and doing things is superior fell asleep at the last staff meeting. I never said analog was superior. Simply that it didn't die that long ago. Not sure why you bring up Atmos, but how can you listen to a Atmos mix without Atmos processing? www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fwMneAnfycAtmos was meant for movies, not music. Taking a stereo mix and butchering it to Atmos is not an improvement. Now, if the artist and audio engineer planned and recorded an Atmos album, then that would be different, but has anyone actually done that? I'll try and say my point in a different way, but this will be my last attempt. If you can't comprehend it, then that is on you. Analog mixes were recorded in a specific way. It was limited to the master tape, but audio engineers had a talent that no longer exists today. Go watch Sound City. When modern remasters simply make something louder, it can be butchered and suck. I can't find a source atm, but I've read that many remasters also go back to early digital sources, and rarely go back to the master tapes. That just cost too much. So the best sources of older music recorded in analog are older analog sources (vinyl and tape) and possibly early CDs that didn't suck. If you like the loudness wars and don't care, go for it, but IMO it's gotten out of hand. If you want to hear the way it was originally mixed and care about the art of album mastering, then old analog sources or early CDs it is. A few AAD CDs did sound good, but many were also horrible. This is obviously for older music, or anything recorded at Sound City before they closed. “Dolby Atmos is the future of music and sound. It's providing an immersive and engaging experience for music listeners and musicians alike. As this technology continues to evolve, we can expect even more innovations that will revolutionize the way we experience music.“ |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2024 11:49:40 GMT -5
I never said analog was superior. Simply that it didn't die that long ago. Not sure why you bring up Atmos, but how can you listen to a Atmos mix without Atmos processing? www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fwMneAnfycAtmos was meant for movies, not music. Taking a stereo mix and butchering it to Atmos is not an improvement. Now, if the artist and audio engineer planned and recorded an Atmos album, then that would be different, but has anyone actually done that? I'll try and say my point in a different way, but this will be my last attempt. If you can't comprehend it, then that is on you. Analog mixes were recorded in a specific way. It was limited to the master tape, but audio engineers had a talent that no longer exists today. Go watch Sound City. When modern remasters simply make something louder, it can be butchered and suck. I can't find a source atm, but I've read that many remasters also go back to early digital sources, and rarely go back to the master tapes. That just cost too much. So the best sources of older music recorded in analog are older analog sources (vinyl and tape) and possibly early CDs that didn't suck. If you like the loudness wars and don't care, go for it, but IMO it's gotten out of hand. If you want to hear the way it was originally mixed and care about the art of album mastering, then old analog sources or early CDs it is. A few AAD CDs did sound good, but many were also horrible. This is obviously for older music, or anything recorded at Sound City before they closed. “Dolby Atmos is the future of music and sound. It's providing an immersive and engaging experience for music listeners and musicians alike. As this technology continues to evolve, we can expect even more innovations that will revolutionize the way we experience music.“ For who? Most compatible devices are headphones and earbuds. The number of people who do a high end Atmos theater will be so slim, it won't matter. I have a 3.1 Atmos soundbar on a smaller TV, and I've tried spacial audio. I made sure that sound was coming up from the top speakers, and they were, but I was not blown away. I rather listen on a much higher quality stereo. Just because a technology is being pushed today doesn't mean it will last long term. I'll wait and see where things are in 10 years, but I could see it going in the pile of 3D TVs and Curved TVs. I know I'm not going to spend the money to upgrade for a few movies that are mixed in Atmos. Even Oppenheimer is mixed in 5.1. |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Jan 5, 2024 12:44:58 GMT -5
……..Point being?!?! the thoughts are so rambling, but the point here is tough to grasp IMHO (no bad intentions…..)
The other day I listened to an Atmos mix rendered in ultra high definition, sound without atmos processing.
All I can say, is anyone who thinks the past way of recording and doing things is superior fell asleep at the last staff meeting. I never said analog was superior. Simply that it didn't die that long ago. Not sure why you bring up Atmos, but how can you listen to a Atmos mix without Atmos processing? www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fwMneAnfycAtmos was meant for movies, not music. Taking a stereo mix and butchering it to Atmos is not an improvement. Now, if the artist and audio engineer planned and recorded an Atmos album, then that would be different, but has anyone actually done that? I'll try and say my point in a different way, but this will be my last attempt. If you can't comprehend it, then that is on you. Analog mixes were recorded in a specific way. It was limited to the master tape, but audio engineers had a talent that no longer exists today. Go watch Sound City. When modern remasters simply make something louder, it can be butchered and suck. I can't find a source atm, but I've read that many remasters also go back to early digital sources, and rarely go back to the master tapes. That just cost too much. So the best sources of older music recorded in analog are older analog sources (vinyl and tape) and possibly early CDs that didn't suck. If you like the loudness wars and don't care, go for it, but IMO it's gotten out of hand. If you want to hear the way it was originally mixed and care about the art of album mastering, then old analog sources or early CDs it is. A few AAD CDs did sound good, but many were also horrible. This is obviously for older music, or anything recorded at Sound City before they closed. There are some issues translating old analog tape masters to modern reproduction. Remastering has been done for decades with variable success. Some remasters are excellent, so it can be done. ATMOS is meant for sound. It doesn’t matter if it’s a movie or music. BTW, a lot of music today is movie soundtracks. Two very good ATMOS music discs that I have are remasters from analog tape. One is the recent ATMOS remaster of Pink Floyd’s DSOTM. The second is a remaster of Beethoven’s 9 Symphonies conducted by Herbert Von Karajan on DG. The Beethoven symphonies were recorded between 1975-1977. DSOTM is older. These two are just a sample of what is in my library. I have many modern digital recordings that were made in various multi-channel formats; including ATMOS. Most are excellent recordings. If there is push to do music in ATMOS, it makes me happy; whether it’s remasters from old analog tape, or new digital recordings. Some sources for multi-channel music, including ATMOS: www.pureaudio-bluray.com/trptk.com/shop/immersiveaudioalbum.com/superdeluxeedition.com/?s=ATMOS&button=In the “ATMOS doesn’t make sense” video, Josh Seawell is making sense. Josh’s major points are cost/benefit, financial risk to small businesses, making a coherent soundfield in a room, confusing messaging. The large distribution players in the business want to pass the costs to the smaller content creation players. Confusing messaging - good chapter - is part of a Financial Plan. Josh is trying to give good advice to folks who have or want to build a small sound studio - Advice that will help then financially succeed. ATMOS makes Very Good Sense for music. There has hardly been a ‘push’ toward ATMOS. There has been reluctance to accept it because of infrastructure cost, learning curve, and gatekeeping. The Big Dogs eat the small dogs for sport. The Big Dogs want all the money. The first three comments at the video are good. ~~~ Just two cents worth of comment from an old retired audio professional… BTW, Oppenheimer, mixed in 5.1, is a monster for sound. I was disappointed when I saw that it’s not mixed in ATMOS. I was blown away by how good it sounds, and how well it’s mixed in 5.1. Content creation benefits from choices. |
|
|
|
Post by novisnick on Jan 5, 2024 12:46:21 GMT -5
Amusing how Atmos audio has slipped into the topic of vinyl sucks, but OK.
The Bastardization of the term “Atmos” has been stretched and thrown around like a dogs chewy toy. It may be called a “Atmos sound bar” but please, any honest discussion about Atmos can not include such a device. Its a soundbar in every way and nothing else. Many of them sound very very good for what they are.
A true Atmos system would have most folks understanding this huge difference.
And now, back to our topic,
Vinyl is Great! ❤️🎶❤️🎶
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2024 13:43:37 GMT -5
I never said analog was superior. Simply that it didn't die that long ago. Not sure why you bring up Atmos, but how can you listen to a Atmos mix without Atmos processing? www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fwMneAnfycAtmos was meant for movies, not music. Taking a stereo mix and butchering it to Atmos is not an improvement. Now, if the artist and audio engineer planned and recorded an Atmos album, then that would be different, but has anyone actually done that? I'll try and say my point in a different way, but this will be my last attempt. If you can't comprehend it, then that is on you. Analog mixes were recorded in a specific way. It was limited to the master tape, but audio engineers had a talent that no longer exists today. Go watch Sound City. When modern remasters simply make something louder, it can be butchered and suck. I can't find a source atm, but I've read that many remasters also go back to early digital sources, and rarely go back to the master tapes. That just cost too much. So the best sources of older music recorded in analog are older analog sources (vinyl and tape) and possibly early CDs that didn't suck. If you like the loudness wars and don't care, go for it, but IMO it's gotten out of hand. If you want to hear the way it was originally mixed and care about the art of album mastering, then old analog sources or early CDs it is. A few AAD CDs did sound good, but many were also horrible. This is obviously for older music, or anything recorded at Sound City before they closed. BTW, Oppenheimer, mixed in 5.1, is a monster for sound. I was disappointed when I saw that it’s not mixed in ATMOS. I was blown away by how good it sounds, and how well it’s mixed in 5.1. Content creation benefits from choices. Yes it is. I think that movie might have ticked my subs more than any other movie. Insanely dynamic for a drama movie. Incredibly powerful sound effects. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2024 14:18:25 GMT -5
Amusing how Atmos audio has slipped into the topic of vinyl sucks, but OK. The Bastardization of the term “Atmos” has been stretched and thrown around like a dogs chewy toy. It may be called a “Atmos sound bar” but please, any honest discussion about Atmos can not include such a device. Its a soundbar in every way and nothing else. Many of them sound very very good for what they are. A true Atmos system would have most folks understanding this huge difference. And now, back to our topic, Vinyl is Great! ❤️🎶❤️🎶I'd fully agree that a soundbar can't replace a great system, but if Atmos was noticeable change, I would expect to notice it. Then again, Dave Chappelle's last special was in Atmos. Not sure why I couldn't tell.... Even with more dynamic movies in Atmos, I can't say I can tell much. Either way, today's soundbars can sound oddly good. I've also read post where people who went full out on a Atmos HT are not fully satisfied with the results. I am not going to be an early adopter. I'd try Apple AirPods, but I don't like anything in my ears like that. Also, Apple can only do AAC on wireless devices that support spacial sound. ALAC isn't supported. |
|
