KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 19, 2023 12:53:47 GMT -5
My three favorite albums of theirs are... The Silent Force The Heart of Everything The Unforgiving They also have some really interesting videos (on Youtube) I've got to add a bit of an update here... Recently I've seen a few songs from artists I really like that are ONLY released on streaming services... (And quite a few seem to release individual songs on streaming services long before they release the entire new album.) So from above, I’m interested in listening to your ‘favorite band’ — Within Temptation. I will be streaming on Apple Music and there I see albums going back to 2011, a 35 song ‘Essentials’ playlist, and even some music videos. Their latest release, Ritual (and possibly others) has an Atmos mix I could choose as well. Do you have a recommendation on where to start? View AttachmentView AttachmentView Attachment |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 19, 2023 13:15:48 GMT -5
One thing you need to keep in mind with video is that ALL video is compressed. A Blu-Ray disc is compressed about ten to one - compared to real uncompressed video. And 4k discs are compressed even more (they squeeze about 4x as many pixels into about 2x as much data real estate). Modern h265 compression is nicer than the older type because, at its resolution limit, it tends to get "a little softer" rather than to "pixellate". It also seems as if modern video compression does a better job of discarding only stuff we're really less likely to notice than most audio compression. (Although, every once in a while, you see a real clinker of an artifact on an old DVD.) But, to be fair, high quality MP3 or AAC (240kbps or 320kbps) can sound quite good too... the problem is that many amateurs chose 128k to save space. The other thing to keep in mind is that there's more involved than just the video signal itself. Most 4k movies I've seen don't really look better than the best 1080p content... probably because of limitations in things like cameras and lenses. And then, of course, with better video resolution, you tend to notice things like badly painted backdrops, and uneven editing or lighting. It's also worth mentioning that many people seem to have forgotten that, along with the good ones, there were also a lot of truly AWFUL vinyl records too... (Just as there have been more than a few truly awful "vintage" phono preamps and other audio components too.) I have no desire to start a vinyl collection, invest in a turntable set up and deal with cleaning vinyl. I’m not a hater. It’s just not appealing to me. I’m honestly quite happy streaming music. I’m pleased with the sound and I love the huge library and convenience. Now, when it comes to TV and movies, I think physical discs are still far superior. Any movie I truly love I buy the uhd disc. Like anything in life, you have to have a strong desire and want to do something to be good at or have a chance of learning something very well. I would say that would include turntable setup and the cleaning required. A few years ago my nice messaged me about getting a CD player. I was like, oh. Do you have a nice CD collection left over? She didn't own a single one. I was like, no point in starting now. Interesting about streaming. Years ago before 4K, I thought the compression was worst than physical disk, but with 4K HDR and Dolby vision, it all looks great. I'm not a videophile either. Other than setting the TV brightness to movie and turning off all the enhancements, I'm a happy camper. My philosophy on movie sound quality and music quality playback is completely different as well, so not really related to the history of possible good vinyl pressings that exist. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 19, 2023 13:21:18 GMT -5
1. It is quite possible to keep vinyl albums clean. And if, weather permitting, there isn't a lot of static, that will help a lot too. But you do always have to be a lot more careful when handling vinyl. 2. The other thing is that there is software, and even hardware, that is very effective at removing the ticks and pops that do manage to happen. (While most of it would be used while recording or editing files I wouldn't be surprised if some "DJ rigs" include on-the-fly click-and-pop removal as an optional feature.) 3. Also note that, in a live music situation, with a lot of ambient noise, the occasional tick or pop may simply not be noticeable. A bit of anecdote experience with vinyl. I have 2. In the mid 90s my friend's grandmother (yes I know that is weird) had a hifi system. I don't know all the details, but the receiver was a Harmon Kardon, and the turn table was a Dual. I only know this because my friend still has it. Anyway, I was able to listen to a near virgin copy of Star Wars on Vinyl. I was surprised that it didn't have cracks and pops, but sounded like Wonderfull music. I kind of put that in the memory bank, but didn't think much of it. In the early 2000's I was at a museum happy hour. I started with desert and was jamming to music with a DJ with a PA system. After a while, I went to the bar for a single drink ( I was driving) and while I passed the DJ, he was spinning vinyl records. I had no ideal, but I never heard a pop crack or anything. He must have kept his records CLEAN!. Either way, that was what started me in my vinyl journey. I find it odd that some people have night and day experiences. Some find it garbage and others like it. It goes against general audio experiences where differences should be minor at most. I'm confused how people could have such different views on vinyl records. Either way, that hifi system got me started on my current path. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2023 14:01:45 GMT -5
One thing you need to keep in mind with video is that ALL video is compressed. A Blu-Ray disc is compressed about ten to one - compared to real uncompressed video. And 4k discs are compressed even more (they squeeze about 4x as many pixels into about 2x as much data real estate). Modern h265 compression is nicer than the older type because, at its resolution limit, it tends to get "a little softer" rather than to "pixellate". It also seems as if modern video compression does a better job of discarding only stuff we're really less likely to notice than most audio compression. (Although, every once in a while, you see a real clinker of an artifact on an old DVD.) But, to be fair, high quality MP3 or AAC (240kbps or 320kbps) can sound quite good too... the problem is that many amateurs chose 128k to save space. The other thing to keep in mind is that there's more involved than just the video signal itself. Most 4k movies I've seen don't really look better than the best 1080p content... probably because of limitations in things like cameras and lenses. And then, of course, with better video resolution, you tend to notice things like badly painted backdrops, and uneven editing or lighting. It's also worth mentioning that many people seem to have forgotten that, along with the good ones, there were also a lot of truly AWFUL vinyl records too... (Just as there have been more than a few truly awful "vintage" phono preamps and other audio components too.) Like anything in life, you have to have a strong desire and want to do something to be good at or have a chance of learning something very well. I would say that would include turntable setup and the cleaning required. A few years ago my nice messaged me about getting a CD player. I was like, oh. Do you have a nice CD collection left over? She didn't own a single one. I was like, no point in starting now. Interesting about streaming. Years ago before 4K, I thought the compression was worst than physical disk, but with 4K HDR and Dolby vision, it all looks great. I'm not a videophile either. Other than setting the TV brightness to movie and turning off all the enhancements, I'm a happy camper. My philosophy on movie sound quality and music quality playback is completely different as well, so not really related to the history of possible good vinyl pressings that exist. I'm aware that compression is still used, it's just gotten so good it doesn't bother me and I don't notice it like I used to. Anything modern filmed on a digital camera generally looks great in 4K. The largest advantage are black levels, but that can be a curse because some people abuse HDR and Dolby vision and you need a dark room to watch some of it. Disney+ remastered the Indiana Jones movies in 4K. I don't know how they did it, but they removed most of the film scratches and it looks good. A noticeable upgrade than any DVD version I've seen. The quality of movie transfers has always varied all over the place, but it's been years since I've watched a movie that I thought looked bad. Years ago when I had a 1080p projector, out of boredom I thew an older Oppo 1080p DVD player in and played some of my older DVDs. I was surprised how clean some of them looked on a larger screen. I was almost expecting them to be kind of awful. The downside of mpeg2 was background compression effects, but a clean movie is still a clean movie. Even back in the days of DVD, some of the high quality transfers looked good. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2023 14:58:55 GMT -5
1. It is quite possible to keep vinyl albums clean. And if, weather permitting, there isn't a lot of static, that will help a lot too. But you do always have to be a lot more careful when handling vinyl. 2. The other thing is that there is software, and even hardware, that is very effective at removing the ticks and pops that do manage to happen. (While most of it would be used while recording or editing files I wouldn't be surprised if some "DJ rigs" include on-the-fly click-and-pop removal as an optional feature.) 3. Also note that, in a live music situation, with a lot of ambient noise, the occasional tick or pop may simply not be noticeable. A bit of anecdote experience with vinyl. I have 2. In the mid 90s my friend's grandmother (yes I know that is weird) had a hifi system. I don't know all the details, but the receiver was a Harmon Kardon, and the turn table was a Dual. I only know this because my friend still has it. Anyway, I was able to listen to a near virgin copy of Star Wars on Vinyl. I was surprised that it didn't have cracks and pops, but sounded like Wonderfull music. I kind of put that in the memory bank, but didn't think much of it. In the early 2000's I was at a museum happy hour. I started with desert and was jamming to music with a DJ with a PA system. After a while, I went to the bar for a single drink ( I was driving) and while I passed the DJ, he was spinning vinyl records. I had no ideal, but I never heard a pop crack or anything. He must have kept his records CLEAN!. Either way, that was what started me in my vinyl journey. I find it odd that some people have night and day experiences. Some find it garbage and others like it. It goes against general audio experiences where differences should be minor at most. I'm confused how people could have such different views on vinyl records. Either way, that hifi system got me started on my current path. The DJ could have been using some sort of real time tool to clean up pops and clicks. I'll never know, but it wasn't an overly loud environment. The music was at a pleasantly good level where it was on the louder side, but not ear raping me. Either way, I when I saw that vinyl was being played, I was expecting compression PA drivers to paint a huge flaw on vinyl records. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 19, 2023 15:32:27 GMT -5
The technology for removing scratches and dust dots from video works really well nowadays. Likewise, the software for correcting faded colors, or inconsistent color, is worlds better than it used to be. And some of the upscaling and sharpening technology works incredibly well too - even on video of relatively low quality. (There is even software nowadays that can use frame interpolation to make credible slow-motion footage from normal video.) The usual catch is that, in order for it to work really well, most of it needs to be tweaked by hand. So actual movies, where an actual human being will spend a few hours making the adjustments, can be made to look incredibly good... The only real problem is low end streaming... where they're playing old stock content and shows... and basically "running it all through a black box"... That doesn't always work out so well. I'm aware that compression is still used, it's just gotten so good it doesn't bother me and I don't notice it like I used to. Anything modern filmed on a digital camera generally looks great in 4K. The largest advantage are black levels, but that can be a curse because some people abuse HDR and Dolby vision and you need a dark room to watch some of it. Disney+ remastered the Indiana Jones movies in 4K. I don't know how they did it, but they removed most of the film scratches and it looks good. A noticeable upgrade than any DVD version I've seen. The quality of movie transfers has always varied all over the place, but it's been years since I've watched a movie that I thought looked bad. Years ago when I had a 1080p projector, out of boredom I thew an older Oppo 1080p DVD player in and played some of my older DVDs. I was surprised how clean some of them looked on a larger screen. I was almost expecting them to be kind of awful. The downside of mpeg2 was background compression effects, but a clean movie is still a clean movie. Even back in the days of DVD, some of the high quality transfers looked good. |
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Post by slovell on Jan 1, 2024 0:16:21 GMT -5
You'll have to pry my Scoutmaster and my lps out of my cold dead hands and at my age that could be any day now.
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 1, 2024 9:30:14 GMT -5
You'll have to pry my Scoutmaster and my lps out of my cold dead hands and at my age that could be any day now. What’s a scoutmaster? |
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Post by novisnick on Jan 1, 2024 13:57:25 GMT -5
You'll have to pry my Scoutmaster and my lps out of my cold dead hands and at my age that could be any day now. What’s a scoutmaster? Scoutmaster is a quality TurnTable. I really like my Rega. 1,000 plus LP’s and very rarely have a pop or click. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 1, 2024 14:03:37 GMT -5
Scoutmaster is a quality TurnTable. I really like my Rega. 1,000 plus LP’s and very rarely have a pop or click. I’m sure you are very tenacious and take great care of your records. That being said, dirt cares little about what brand turntable, you spin them on. The more this topic comes up, the more I think about how much information both video and audio can be contained on the Blu-ray medium and then contemplate not even fraction of that that can be laid out on an LP and I scratch my head in amazement why anyone would bother in the 21st-century…… What can I say? That’s just me lol. |
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Post by novisnick on Jan 1, 2024 14:17:14 GMT -5
Scoutmaster is a quality TurnTable. I really like my Rega. 1,000 plus LP’s and very rarely have a pop or click. I’m sure you are very tenacious and take great care of your records. That being said, dirt cares little about what brand turntable, you spin them on. True, after turning wrenches on my truck engine I don’t bother washing my hands, I just slap a record on the TT and let er rip! LOL Records are not really as fragile as many folks think. “Dirt” rarely happens in our audio systems, dust, yes. But a swipe of a carbon fiber brush and thats taken care of. One can use methods to clean records but usually once cleaned maintenance is minimal as mentioned above. Record pressing plants are not computer-chip manufacturing clean! |
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Post by PaulBe on Jan 1, 2024 14:36:15 GMT -5
I have an LP collection that I started 59 years ago. Still have my first LP and it's in good shape. Bought 2 LPs in the last 35 years; both recently; one because of history; one because it's an old album unavailable in any other format. If I were starting again today, I wouldn't bother with LPs.
Beat up LPs sound bad. Beat up digital discs don't play at all. Good and poor recordings come in all formats.
I put my entire WAV CD collection, some Hi-rez digitized LPs, and a few downloads, on a 1TB thumb-drive. If I digitized all 1300 LPs, I could put everything on that 1TB thumb-drive. 1500# of physical media on a 1 ounce thumb-drive with no loss of resolution. Playback using inexpensive software library tools, like JRiver and others, that could not be imagined 30 years ago.
I like having physical media as a backup. I like the compact storage and library features of playing a digital collection.
The amazing thing is my 40 year old Rega Planar 3 still performs like it did when I bought it. It's nostalgic fun, but I wouldn't do it over now. And, the Turntable, Arm, Phono-pre, Cartridge combo, costs more than an RMC. With regular use, the phono stylus needs replacement as often as tubes in a tube preamp and amp.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2024 14:36:22 GMT -5
Scoutmaster is a quality TurnTable. I really like my Rega. 1,000 plus LP’s and very rarely have a pop or click. I’m sure you are very tenacious and take great care of your records. That being said, dirt cares little about what brand turntable, you spin them on. The more this topic comes up, the more I think about how much information both video and audio can be contained on the Blu-ray medium and then contemplate not even fraction of that that can be laid out on an LP and I scratch my head in amazement why anyone would bother in the 21st-century…… What can I say? That’s just me lol. By that logic, CDs are garbage because they are from the 80s and are useless compared to Blu-ray? Except, a CD can play on any working device sold since the release of a CD. Same with vinyl records. Sometimes I get the feeling people compare modern vinyl pressings to shellac 78s or something. The time distance between success and take off of stereo LPs and CDs aren't that far apart. The media is only part of it. Low quality garbage was released on CDs, and I'm sure LPs as well, but they both have great high quality versions and todays 180/200gram pressings are likely the best that have ever been released. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 1, 2024 18:33:50 GMT -5
By that logic, CDs are garbage because they are from the 80s and are useless compared to Blu-ray? Except, a CD can play on any working device sold since the release of a CD. Same with vinyl records. Sometimes I get the feeling people compare modern vinyl pressings to shellac 78s or something. The time distance between success and take off of stereo LPs and CDs aren't that far apart. The media is only part of it. Low quality garbage was released on CDs, and I'm sure LPs as well, but they both have great high quality versions and todays 180/200gram pressings are likely the best that have ever been released. Ha ha NO sorry I didn’t make myself clear no, not at all what I meant. NO vinyl can supply the amount of information that can be jammed into ANY digital medium. The sound AND the durability between the two is in comparable….meaning that digital is incomparably better Yes, there were early digital recordings (early CDs) that were garbage…..there were many reasons for that, mostly just copying analog digital in the early days which had nothing to do with the fact that digital was superior. It was only that the copying was done on the cheap, without the full understanding of how it’s done today. Beyond that, I would refer you to the very first post of this very first thread… Vinyl sucks. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2024 19:52:52 GMT -5
Saying vinyl sucks is kinda like saying music sucks. The CD might have come out in 82, but only early adopters bought really early. I don't recall them being mainstream till the early 90s. Not everyone would just replace vinyl and tape collections with a CD player and all new CDs. I remember listening to and enjoying music a long time before digital came out, or was reasonable mainstream. People can have whatever beliefs they want, but to say vinyl sucks is overly harsh and IMO, not truthful. Even with all the limitations and flaws, a modern quality pressing can sound better than I would have thought vinyl could sound growing up with the gear I had access to.
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 1, 2024 20:10:25 GMT -5
Vinyl Sucks…..Vinyl Sucks!!
(No I did NOT say it twice…..)
The record skipped.
The other great memory I recall is walking over (ever so gently) to my turntable and EVEN on my tippy toes all too often for my tastes, would aquire a nasty static buildup that would get me like a Gremlin when I touched the tonearm.
So, I would get past THAT then flip the record with the mat STUCK to it 🪦 …..RIP.
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 1, 2024 20:14:55 GMT -5
…..And this is now my 28th shellac free year! Lol and I embrace music, video and the Arts more than ever!
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 2, 2024 10:57:26 GMT -5
My "favorite" was when I would open a nice new sealed high quality record... Clean it carefully... Put down the needle... Sit back, close my eyes, and.... <tick> Get up... Lift the arm... Carefully clean again... Put the needle back down... Sit back down.... and.... <tick> OK... back to the store... buy ANOTHER copy... Open... Clean carefully... Cross fingers... Put the needle back down... DON'T sit back down or close eyes this time... ... ... ... Now, if somehow a tick or pop finds its way into the audio once in a very rare while... It could be the DAC... or something else... but I KNOW it isn't my source file... (And I have a checksum with "zero errors" to prove it.) Vinyl Sucks…..Vinyl Sucks!! (No I did NOT say it twice…..) The record skipped. The other great memory I recall is walking over (ever so gently) to my turntable and EVEN on my tippy toes all too often for my tastes, would aquire a nasty static buildup that would get me like a Gremlin when I touched the tonearm. So, I would get past THAT then flip the record with the mat STUCK to it 🪦 …..RIP. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 2, 2024 11:34:33 GMT -5
My "favorite" was when I would open a nice new sealed high quality record... Clean it carefully... Put down the needle... Sit back, close my eyes, and.... <tick> Get up... Lift the arm... Carefully clean again... Put the needle back down... Sit back down.... and.... <tick> OK... back to the store... buy ANOTHER copy... Open... Clean carefully... Cross fingers... Put the needle back down... DON'T sit back down or close eyes this time... ... ... ... Now, if somehow a tick or pop finds its way into the audio once in a very rare while... It could be the DAC... or something else... but I KNOW it isn't my source file... (And I have a checksum with "zero errors" to prove it.) Vinyl Sucks…..Vinyl Sucks!! (No I did NOT say it twice…..) The record skipped. The other great memory I recall is walking over (ever so gently) to my turntable and EVEN on my tippy toes all too often for my tastes, would aquire a nasty static buildup that would get me like a Gremlin when I touched the tonearm. So, I would get past THAT then flip the record with the mat STUCK to it 🪦 …..RIP. Well, I am sorry we can’t agree on this! I once bought a Chuck Mangione album with a nice warp in it right out of the sleeve. When it traveled around the turntable, you could see the hump in it that look like that hurdle you would get to on an amusement park ride you could hear the trumpet notes warble When the arm got to that magic spot. |
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Post by PaulBe on Jan 2, 2024 11:45:52 GMT -5
... Now, if somehow a tick or pop finds its way into the audio once in a very rare while... It could be the DAC... or something else... but I KNOW it isn't my source file...(And I have a checksum with "zero errors" to prove it.) Vinyl Sucks…..Vinyl Sucks!! ... I get plenty of odd ticks and pops - some quite loud - setting up and manipulating play back of SACDs in native format through my RMC-1L. It doesn't happen when the SACD is converted to PCM. "It could be the DAC... or something else... but I KNOW it isn't my source file..."  I never heard these SACD ticks and pops when playing SACDs through my Pioneer DV-563A DVD/SACD player that was built in 2003. I still use that machine at my workbench. Cost then was $110; which were blown out for $63, a couple of years later, at Best Buy. I'm looking forward to format consolidation and stabilization. Perhaps it's format goofiness and playback problems that drives some back to LPs - It's simple and tactile, regardless of final quality. People who respond here really ought to watch the OPs video and get past the first 30 seconds... www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5rE9bNN_fs |
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I've got to add a bit of an update here... 
