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Post by dxtrem3fx on Jun 3, 2019 19:52:32 GMT -5
Hello All,
Who uses power conditioners for their systems, and what types are recommended? These things seem to be really expensive. I'm looking for one but not sure which one to buy. And I don't want to spend $1000 on one.
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Post by creimes on Jun 3, 2019 20:03:24 GMT -5
Me I use Emotiva CMX-2 and CMX-6
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Post by gus4emo on Jun 3, 2019 20:11:36 GMT -5
Me I use Emotiva CMX-2 and CMX-6 I have two CMX2 and one CMX6 |
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Post by dxtrem3fx on Jun 3, 2019 20:29:19 GMT -5
I think the CMX-2 and the CMX-6 need to be combined to produce the all-new CMX-8 with the following functions:
• Precision DC offset eliminator.
• Fully rated for use with high power amplifiers, will not limit peak current.
• High-quality common mode and differential mode L-C noise filtering.
• Continuous line-status monitoring – provides continuous real-time indicators that show the status of Hot, Neutral, and Ground lines.
• Power Direct Connect™ mounting system, which connects the outlets directly to the circuit board.
• Premium high-quality components and a heavy-duty double sided FR4 circuit board with high current paths on both sides.
• Six commercial grade AC outlets.
• Detachable IEC high current, 14 gauge, 2-meter power cord included.
• High reliability re-settable magnetic circuit breaker.
• Constructed from machined aluminum.
• Can be mounted vertically or horizontally.
Thank you for the info. I will have to buy one with my amp.
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Post by Bonzo on Jun 3, 2019 20:39:21 GMT -5
I use 2 Belkin PF-60s. Don't care what doubters say...makes all the difference in the world with the Gen 1 XPA amps and my house. Can't live without them.
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Post by novisnick on Jun 3, 2019 20:53:21 GMT -5
I use 2 Belkin PF-60s. Don't care what doubters say...makes all the difference in the world with the Gen 1 XPA amps and my house. Can't live without them. I use one in each system. Great piece of kit! |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 3, 2019 21:13:58 GMT -5
Hi dxtrem3fx - Power conditioners are one of those things, IMHO, where price is NOT correlated with performance. Further, a device that works well in one system seems to reduce the sound quality in another. I'd recommend buying a selection of inexpensive and simple surge suppressors from a variety of companies. Listen to them in your system. Like one brand the best? Try that company's higher end power conditioner. I'd also contend that your concerns over current limiting may be misplaced. Unless you're using your equipment to do stadium-PA, you will NEVER use your amps at full output. In a typical living room, we all typically listen at less than one watt with a maximum of 10-watt peaks. This is not an opinion - it's a fact. Think about it... Happy shopping - Boomzilla |
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Post by RichGuy on Jun 3, 2019 21:37:56 GMT -5
I use the Belkin PF-60.
I auditioned quite a few power conditioners along with other sources, high end power strips, direct to wall, I tried quite a few in my system to see what I liked best, I tried and compared some that were very expensive. Some were improvements while others downgraded sound quality. My favorite was the Belkin PF-60 as it made my system sound its best and had what I really thought were the best features as well like some of the best isolation with 6 isolated pairs of outlets, excellent trigger management, excellent filtering, highest joule rating, 2 high current outlets that performed well with amps, many power conditioners did not do well with amps but the Belkin PF-60 really did well here not limiting my amps performance and improving their sound quality.
The Belkin PF-60 is what sounded best in my system and I do use it with my XPA-2 and XPA-5 amps as well as the rest of my system except I do use an Emotiva CMX-2 for my 2 subwoofers but I far prefer the Belkin PF-60.
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Post by strindl on Jun 3, 2019 22:29:08 GMT -5
Hello All, Who uses power conditioners for their systems, and what types are recommended? These things seem to be really expensive. I'm looking for one but not sure which one to buy. And I don't want to spend $1000 on one. I use APC-H15 power conditioners on all three of my audio systems. They are far more than a surge suppressor. www.amazon.com/APC-H15BLK-12-Outlet-Rack-Mountable-Conditioner/dp/B000FBF08QReasonably priced too.  |
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Jun 3, 2019 23:23:45 GMT -5
Not particularly surprising. Companies like Belkin and APC are reputable companies who actually make functional commercial products. I would expect a line noise filter or power conditioner sold by either of them to do what the spec sheet says it does. So, if you actually have a line noise problem, I would expect one of their products that includes a line noise filter to help. The same goes for our CMX-2 and CMX-6. Line noise filters aren't mysterious or mystical.... in fact they're pretty well proven commercial technology. The parts involved also just plain aren't especially complicated or expensive. Unfortunately, there are several issues that plague "the audiophile line noise filter market". 1) Line noise is a problem that you may or may not experience... And, if you don't have the problem, then it won't improve anything to fix the problem you don't have. (And, yes, sometimes the easiest way to find out is to see if a filter helps... but keep an open mind, and be prepared to find out that it may or may not.) Most power lines are somewhat noisy, but a lot of equipment is simply not affected by line noise, or only affected by major amounts of noise. Normal properly designed equipment is designed to be largely immune to the sorts and amounts of line noise it is likely to encounter. (A lof of "audiophile companies" would like to convince you that line noise is always a problem - so a filter will always help. This is simply untrue.) 2) Some so-called "audiophile line noise filters" are simply not based on real technology - and some of them just plain don't work - or don't work well. Just because their explanation sounds "all cool and scientific" doesn't mean that it's actually true. Some audiophile products are based on interesting and unproven technology; and some are just plain science fiction. And, yes, this is one area where we are all easily misled by our expectations to hear "subtle differences" that may or may not really be there. (And, no, in most circumstances, there is no regulatory agency that effectively prevents manufacturers from simply making claims that aren't true.) 3) Some so-called "audiophile products" are based on legitimate technology - but are still not necessary or useful. It can cost as much as several million dollars per payload pound to put a satellite into orbit. Because of this, it may make sense to wire one with silver wire, because it saves 5% over the weight of copper wire... And it may make sense to shield a satellite to block cosmic rays to extend the life of the circuitry inside it by a few years... However, most of that stuff really doesn't make sense for your stereo system. And, believe it or not, most of the wiring on the space shuttle actually cost a lot less per foot than many people pay for speaker wire and audio interconnects. A lot of "audiophile companies" will cheerfully sell you absurdly expensive technology that makes no difference whatsoever on the surface of planet Earth. (I'll leave it to you whether you believe they honestly think it will make a difference... or whether they're really just dazzled by the 90% profit margin.) 4) And, yes, as many of you have found out the hard way, a poorly designed line filter can actually make your amp perform audibly worse... Or even cause it to malfunction. I use the Belkin PF-60. I auditioned quite a few power conditioners along with other sources, high end power strips, direct to wall, I tried quite a few in my system to see what I liked best, I tried and compared some that were very expensive. Some were improvements while others downgraded sound quality. My favorite was the Belkin PF-60 as it made my system sound its best and had what I really thought were the best features as well like some of the best isolation with 6 isolated pairs of outlets, excellent trigger management, excellent filtering, highest joule rating, 2 high current outlets that performed well with amps, many power conditioners did not do well with amps but the Belkin PF-60 really did well here not limiting my amps performance and improving their sound quality. The Belkin PF-60 is what sounded best in my system and I do use it with my XPA-2 and XPA-5 amps as well as the rest of my system except I do use an Emotiva CMX-2 for my 2 subwoofers but I far prefer the Belkin PF-60. |
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Post by Loop 7 on Jun 3, 2019 23:25:24 GMT -5
I'm an outlier in that I do not use any power conditioning with my amplifiers.
Yes, I throw caution to the wind but lightning is non-existent where I live and there have been 2 outages in 16 years.
Well, also because I spoke with a designer at a well known amp company who said we have this luxury in our part of the US but, if we were in the midwest or south, there is no way he would be advising people to forego conditioning and protection. Of course, his logic was that all but a very few conditioners do rob current and can be tested to prove so. I think he mentioned the Shunyata that costs as much as a car being a conditioner that does not rob a bit of current.
I know am risking it but I also know my system sounds better connected to the wall (my source components are connected through a conditioner since they are all low draw).
My point being geography plays a part in this question and it's ultimate answer.
Okay, I'm ready to be told the sky will fall...
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Post by donh50 on Jun 3, 2019 23:49:56 GMT -5
Any well-designed component will reject noise from the power line. Remember from the wall it goes through a transformer, rectifiers (which generate a bunch of HF energy), then a bank of decoupling (filter) capacitors. Or gets switched through an SMPS (switch-mode power supply) so is even more isolated from the wall. If LF wall noise is getting through all of that you've a pretty bad component. Most of the benefit of power conditioners and UPS units comes from better ground isolation or simply different safety ground routing (minimizing ground noise currents) or compensating for voltage sags (or surges, in some cases). Surge suppressors, good ones that is, will suppress fast high-voltage spikes and prolong the life of your components (assuming you have a bunch of such spikes -- most of us don't). Many conditioners includes an inductor to suppress high-speed, high-voltage spikes but the problem often is that the inductors limit current (and current bandwidth, which can be much higher than the 50/60 Hz fundamental of the voltage coming out of the wall socket). And cheap surge suppressors use low-power MOVs with limited capacity to absorb energy -- a few hits and they are done, no more protection, and no way for you to know. Better ones use high-power MOVs or alternative technologies (see e.g. zerosurge.com/mov-suppressor-safety/). And a passive conditioner will not help with a brownout -- that takes a UPS. My power amps go directly into the wall. All the other electronics (TC, processor, BD player, wireless access point, etc.) are on a UPS. That lets it ride out short drops or blackouts safely and gives me time to shut things down in an orderly fashion in a longer blackout (or hold everything until our generator cuts on). In normal operation the UPS does some filtering but nothing else -- wall power just passes through. During a power outage the UPS provide relatively "unclean" power but since I am not normally using the system in that event it doesn't matter. I do have a couple of "true-sine" UPS units, one for the main system (got a good deal), and another for the aquarium since the pumps run hot with simple unfiltered stepped-sine waves put out by cheap UPS' and I need (or rather my fish need) those pumps to keep running. The house has whole-house surge protection in a unit at the incoming electrical service, and a second unit to provide lightning protection. They won't help if lightning hits the house (a direct strike), but when a tree in the back yard was hit we were OK but our neighbors (~100 yards away) suffered damage to several components (they have since added their own whole-house units). FWIWFM - Don |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Jun 4, 2019 0:16:26 GMT -5
I use a Furman Elite 15PF but honestly, it's mostly because a 12-outlet power strip would be a mess. That is, I'm using it as a fancy and neat power distribution solution. Casey |
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Post by RichGuy on Jun 4, 2019 0:20:07 GMT -5
BTW my experience trying many forms of power to power my equipment my experience with UPS systems was the worst for sound quality. While I do use a very good UPS system with my desktop computer, I found that using a UPS in my sound system to be the worst and very poorly affected the sound quality. This poor sound quality was in normal use, under normal full power and not while the power was out putting the UPS into use, from my experience I would never use a UPS with my sound system.
The only reason to have a UPS is for protection for computers to protect against information being lost by unexpected power loss as well as to protect things like a projector which may need cooling fans to run to protect against over heating and sudden power loss could cause problems with them not being able to cool properly.
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Post by vcautokid on Jun 4, 2019 2:49:26 GMT -5
Understand what you are buying and know what you are getting. Some stuff is smoke and mirrors B.S. I use the CMX-6 and 8 way Furman power with good results. You can shoot for the moon on these darn things. My favorite is the Brickwall ones I might jump into next. The upper line Furman's do well. APC is not quite on my radar as before but is competent. Panamax did well for me too. With all the polution in our power, you need conditioning.
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Post by 405x5 on Jun 4, 2019 7:46:48 GMT -5
Hello All, Who uses power conditioners for their systems, and what types are recommended? These things seem to be really expensive. I'm looking for one but not sure which one to buy. And I don't want to spend $1000 on one. Save your change and don’t buy one at all! A waste of money 💰 Bill |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 4, 2019 10:21:07 GMT -5
I’m in the do nothing camp, everything is plugged into the power distribution I built into my cabinet, which is plugged directly into a dedicated 20A circuit.
Years ago I used a couple Monster power HTPS 7000’s, partly because they had every outlet I needed and provided triggered switching, I also liked the voltage and current readings, and thought they looked cool. But I found they drew a noticeable current even when they were idle and the system off, also felt they might be current limiting my big amps, so I sold them, not sure if I heard any difference.
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Post by donh50 on Jun 4, 2019 11:37:25 GMT -5
BTW my experience trying many forms of power to power my equipment my experience with UPS systems was the worst for sound quality. While I do use a very good UPS system with my desktop computer, I found that using a UPS in my sound system to be the worst and very poorly affected the sound quality. This poor sound quality was in normal use, under normal full power and not while the power was out putting the UPS into use, from my experience I would never use a UPS with my sound system. The only reason to have a UPS is for protection for computers to protect against information being lost by unexpected power loss as well as to protect things like a projector which may need cooling fans to run to protect against over heating and sudden power loss could cause problems with them not being able to cool properly. The only way for that to happen is for the UPS to be injecting noise (maybe coupled or radiated from the battery charging circuit, adding a ground loop, or other issue. Sounds like a defective (or just badly designed) UPS. I've never had that problem in the decades I've used them. In my case our local power is not terribly reliable, subject to brief (second or two) as well as longer (a week or so in a blizzard a couple of years ago) outages. A UPS means it rides out the short glitches without cycling everything on and off rapidly, the type of thing that can kill components, and gives me time for an orderly shutdown if it goes on for long. It also keeps my network alive so I don't have to wait for everything to reboot if power blips for a second or three. |
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Post by franky on Jun 4, 2019 13:32:38 GMT -5
Has anyone tried Zero Surge power filters, their web site makes them sound like they do both surge and filtering in one unit for a reasonable price.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Jun 4, 2019 14:23:18 GMT -5
I've never used that brand, but I use Brick Wall - who is their main competitor and uses the same sort of technology (series mode). They are about the best protection you can get from short power surges due to something like a lightning strike.
They also provide excellent noise filtering as a secondary effect of the technology they use.
Has anyone tried Zero Surge power filters, their web site makes them sound like they do both surge and filtering in one unit for a reasonable price. |
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