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Post by thrillcat on Aug 20, 2019 9:37:39 GMT -5
IYHO. MMMV. Want do the measurement say.  Mark What is the official measurement for “looks more real”? |
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Post by mfeust on Aug 20, 2019 9:56:20 GMT -5
IYHO. MMMV. Want do the measurement say. Mark What is the official measurement for “looks more real”? WOW you must love to argue. Why so angry? We just talking about TV's. Mark |
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Post by garbulky on Aug 20, 2019 10:02:55 GMT -5
It's a step up over Blu Ray. When properly done, it does look more real and natural. When not done right....like 4k or "director's vision" then well it's a toss up. I've watched some 4k movies where I felt the Blu Ray was probably an equal way to experience the movie. I don’t know what YOU mean when you say “director’s vision”, but the fact is, the only way a film is “done right” is when it’s done according to the director’s vision. It’s their art, not yours. Just because you don’t like the way a movie is shot, or edited, or lit, or whatever, does not make it wrong. But it can mean that it looks sh*tty on 4k when the film grain is lit up like nobody's business. I don't care if the film is done right if it looks bad. Think of it like autotune or dynamic compression. It was absolutely the director's vision and on crappy speakers most people don't notice it. But on better speakers it's just not as good as other offerings. |
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Post by davidl81 on Aug 20, 2019 10:07:27 GMT -5
A lot of that depends on what display you are watching it on. I hate the LCD tvs that have the frame interpolation (soap opera effect), as I feel like those do look very fake. On my tv's I turn off that feature and live with the small amount of screen blur. Of course that has nothing to do with 4K, just has to do with the display. In comparing 4K to blu-ray it's not like some huge jump in PQ, just more of a mild step up. The extra resolution gives the picture a tad bit more "depth" and the HDR more than anything else adds a lot with the contrast between brights and darks. But does it look real to you? I have two Panasonic plasma TV's because there image presentation look more real to me. Every time I have seen a 4k TV image it looks very fake to me. Mark I think you are really comparing 1080p plasma that has a better refresh rate to a 4K lcd TV that has to incorporate frame interpolation to reduce blur. The interpolation (which is an option, it does not have to be used) is what gives the image the "fake" look. It really has nothing to do with 4k or not. If you are looking at a 4k tv on display at bestbuy etc it most likely has the interpolation turned on, and that's why the image looks fake. In fact the image is partly fake and the processor is adding frames to the picture in between real frames to smooth out the jitters seen in LCD/LED tvs. Plasma tvs did not have this jitter so it did not use the interpolation. I turn off this features on my LED and Projector as the soap opera picture bugs me way too much. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 20, 2019 13:27:47 GMT -5
A lot depends on the settings... And various sets do vary as well... But a lot also depends on the content you watch most often...
For example, if you watch 4k content, then it's real 4k (maybe)... And, if you watch a lot of Blu-Rays, then it's being upsampled... And, if you watch a lot of DVDs, it's being upsampled much more aggressively... And you don't even want to think about the amount of upsampling involved between an old 480i SD TV show and 4k UHD...
If you upsample a Blu-Ray disc to 4k, then 3/4 of the the apparent resolution is "simulated"; if it started life as a DVD, then make that 15/16 simulated ... (It looks sort of like a cartoon because it is mostly a computer generated cartoon - loosely based on an actual original image.)
I strongly suspect that a lot of the complaints people have about 4k really boil down to being more able to see flaws that simply weren't visible at lower resolution. (For example, if I squint, and stand somewhat closer than normal viewing distance, I can actually see the flaws in the computer-generated lettering in the titles of many movies.)
Things like a little extra film grain on the dark scenes, which might not be especially noticeable in HD, become obvious, and even glaring, on a sharp bright 4k set.
A question for all you 4kers. Do you think the image looks real and natural? Mark A lot of that depends on what display you are watching it on. I hate the LCD tvs that have the frame interpolation (soap opera effect), as I feel like those do look very fake. On my tv's I turn off that feature and live with the small amount of screen blur. Of course that has nothing to do with 4K, just has to do with the display. In comparing 4K to blu-ray it's not like some huge jump in PQ, just more of a mild step up. The extra resolution gives the picture a tad bit more "depth" and the HDR more than anything else adds a lot with the contrast between brights and darks. |
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Post by garbulky on Sept 3, 2019 0:02:22 GMT -5
So recently I ran up against a roadblock. After figuring out some of "finer" points of TV setup I found myself able to alter the black level for Blu Rays. Now they look incredibly good and their black levels are even more detailed. In fact....in good amount of movies I find myself preferring the Blu rays!
How on earth can that be?! Before I strongly preferred the 4k UHD movies.
I think it has to do with contrast and black levels. On my tv when HDR is enabled, it causes certain options like contrast and OLED "back light" brightness to be grayed out.
So long story short - for movies with film grain and HDR, the film grain tends to be detrimental looking rather like glare or noise. On movies without film grain it looks fantastic. Perhaps more exploration of tv settings may yield some improvement.
The 4k UHD still looks phenomenal especially on 4k UHD that doesn't have film grain. Btu on thigns that do - yeesh.
Godzilla age of monsters is a good example. Look good, btu the purposeful look of the filmm has film grain and blur - doesn't translate all that pleasingly to HDR at least the way my screen is calibrated.
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Post by widespreadpanic on Sept 3, 2019 19:18:21 GMT -5
Hello Everybody,
I’ve watched “The Martian” about 6 times in the past year.
First it was a blue ray disc using a PS4 as source on a BENQ projector.
Next it was a blue ray disc using a PS4 on Panasonic 55” Plasma.
Then it was a blue ray disc using an LG blue ray player on a 55” Samsung Plasma.
After my home was broken into and my TV’s and PS4 were stolen I purchased a 65” Vizio 4K tv and an LG 4K player.
I watched “The Martian” again, this time using the 4K disc on the new Vizio tv with the LG 4K player.
Last night I watched “Transformers, The Last Knight”,....just kidding.
It was “The Martian” on 4K disc with my OPPO 203 UDP on the LG OLED 65” tv.
I miss my Plasma tv’s so much but the picture I saw last night was the best I’ve ever seen.
I prefer the PQ of the plasmas compared to the BENQ and the new Vizio 4K led.
I wish I still had one of those plasmas to compare with the OLED how the motion blur is handled on the oled compared to Plasma. I used to game so anyone who know what refresh rates and gaming have in common know the plasmas were the best for that.
I can’t wait till I get this HT gear completely set up
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Post by garbulky on Sept 4, 2019 12:25:19 GMT -5
Hello Everybody, I’ve watched “The Martian” about 6 times in the past year. First it was a blue ray disc using a PS4 as source on a BENQ projector. Next it was a blue ray disc using a PS4 on Panasonic 55” Plasma. Then it was a blue ray disc using an LG blue ray player on a 55” Samsung Plasma. After my home was broken into and my TV’s and PS4 were stolen I purchased a 65” Vizio 4K tv and an LG 4K player. I watched “The Martian” again, this time using the 4K disc on the new Vizio tv with the LG 4K player. Last night I watched “Transformers, The Last Knight”,....just kidding. It was “The Martian” on 4K disc with my OPPO 203 UDP on the LG OLED 65” tv. I miss my Plasma tv’s so much but the picture I saw last night was the best I’ve ever seen. I prefer the PQ of the plasmas compared to the BENQ and the new Vizio 4K led. I wish I still had one of those plasmas to compare with the OLED how the motion blur is handled on the oled compared to Plasma. I used to game so anyone who know what refresh rates and gaming have in common know the plasmas were the best for that. I can’t wait till I get this HT gear completely set up My LG OLED stuns me everytime I watch it. So in case you don't know there's a whole lot of customization that you can do that can make the picture even better. BTW any of the transformers 4k are stunning on your LG. |
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Post by garbulky on Sept 4, 2019 12:26:52 GMT -5
Just got Men in Black International 4k UHD in. Fantastic picture. It's IMAX the whole way through and some great picture quality with notable lack of film grain giving nice clarity. I think it's a demo disc. Not quite at the level of aquaman which was just all kinds of ridiculous but still quite good.
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Post by novisnick on Sept 4, 2019 12:30:48 GMT -5
Just got Men in Black International 4k UHD in. Fantastic picture. It's IMAX the whole way through and some great picture quality with notable lack of film grain to obscure things. “Fantastic picture “ as in the picture quality was fantastic! Or was the movie fantastic? Just curious. |
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Post by novisnick on Sept 4, 2019 12:48:11 GMT -5
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Post by garbulky on Sept 4, 2019 13:00:19 GMT -5
Just got Men in Black International 4k UHD in. Fantastic picture. It's IMAX the whole way through and some great picture quality with notable lack of film grain to obscure things. “Fantastic picture “ as in the picture quality was fantastic! Or was the movie fantastic? Just curious. Great picture quality. Also enjoyed the movie. |
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Post by simpleman68 on Sept 4, 2019 13:35:25 GMT -5
A question for all you 4kers. Do you think the image looks real and natural? Mark Excellent question and something I have an issue with 4K TVs/monitors. To me the image is sharper than what my eyes see in the real world and that is distracting and artificial to me. But like speakers, the desired results are wildly subjective and personal.
With a good projector, 4K is excellent! I'd guess it's having no back-lighting and the image appearing slightly softer (maybe due to screen size 165") but it looks very natural to me. Like what you see at a good movie theater, it is more natural and is more effective at pulling me into the movie; immersion.
I'm guessing you're not close to me but if you are, you're more than welcome to stop by and check it out.
Scott
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Post by garbulky on Sept 4, 2019 14:41:23 GMT -5
A question for all you 4kers. Do you think the image looks real and natural? Mark Excellent question and something I have an issue with 4K TVs/monitors. To me the image is sharper than what my eyes see in the real world and that is distracting and artificial to me. But like speakers, the desired results are wildly subjective and personal.
With a good projector, 4K is excellent! I'd guess it's having no back-lighting and the image appearing slightly softer (maybe due to screen size 165") but it looks very natural to me. Like what you see at a good movie theater, it is more natural and is more effective at pulling me into the movie; immersion. I'm guessing you're not close to me but if you are, you're more than welcome to stop by and check it out.
Scott
Interesting about it being sharper that what your eyes see. I love the huge amount of detail I get on 4k tvs. But interestingly when I adjusted the calibration the images looked a little softer due to better black levels. You may be experiencing a black crush of sorts that is used to make the colors and detail "pop" by switching over to deep black more quickly. Basically a form of image processing. Another way this iamge processing works is by also increasing the contrast to make the details appear sharper. This appears "too sharp" to my eyes too as it is not natural. The good news is that these features are for the most part disabled. |
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Post by mfeust on Sept 5, 2019 11:55:58 GMT -5
A question for all you 4kers. Do you think the image looks real and natural? Mark Excellent question and something I have an issue with 4K TVs/monitors. To me the image is sharper than what my eyes see in the real world and that is distracting and artificial to me. But like speakers, the desired results are wildly subjective and personal.
With a good projector, 4K is excellent! I'd guess it's having no back-lighting and the image appearing slightly softer (maybe due to screen size 165") but it looks very natural to me. Like what you see at a good movie theater, it is more natural and is more effective at pulling me into the movie; immersion. I'm guessing you're not close to me but if you are, you're more than welcome to stop by and check it out.
Scott
Yes this is want I was referring to. I have not seen a 4k image on anything bigger than a 70" tv. I would love to see and hear your 2CH and HT. Lived first 52yrs of my life in PA and would have gladly traveled to you. Alas we are now in Colorado Springs which is just a little to far. Mark |
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Post by garbulky on Sept 5, 2019 15:23:35 GMT -5
Excellent question and something I have an issue with 4K TVs/monitors. To me the image is sharper than what my eyes see in the real world and that is distracting and artificial to me. But like speakers, the desired results are wildly subjective and personal.
With a good projector, 4K is excellent! I'd guess it's having no back-lighting and the image appearing slightly softer (maybe due to screen size 165") but it looks very natural to me. Like what you see at a good movie theater, it is more natural and is more effective at pulling me into the movie; immersion. I'm guessing you're not close to me but if you are, you're more than welcome to stop by and check it out.
Scott
Yes this is want I was referring to. I have not seen a 4k image on anything bigger than a 70" tv. I would love to see and hear your 2CH and HT. Lived first 52yrs of my life in PA and would have gladly traveled to you. Alas we are now in Colorado Springs which is just a little to far. Mark I'm going to get a chance sometime to see 4k on an 86 inch tv. It's not an OLED but it's going to be interesting. |
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Post by simpleman68 on Sept 5, 2019 22:29:17 GMT -5
Excellent question and something I have an issue with 4K TVs/monitors. To me the image is sharper than what my eyes see in the real world and that is distracting and artificial to me. But like speakers, the desired results are wildly subjective and personal.
With a good projector, 4K is excellent! I'd guess it's having no back-lighting and the image appearing slightly softer (maybe due to screen size 165") but it looks very natural to me. Like what you see at a good movie theater, it is more natural and is more effective at pulling me into the movie; immersion. I'm guessing you're not close to me but if you are, you're more than welcome to stop by and check it out.
Scott
Interesting about it being sharper that what your eyes see. I love the huge amount of detail I get on 4k tvs. But interestingly when I adjusted the calibration the images looked a little softer due to better black levels. You may be experiencing a black crush of sorts that is used to make the colors and detail "pop" by switching over to deep black more quickly. Basically a form of image processing. Another way this iamge processing works is by also increasing the contrast to make the details appear sharper. This appears "too sharp" to my eyes too as it is not natural. The good news is that these features are for the most part disabled. It could be some of the sets I've seen had the wrong settings, contrast jacked etc but I think it's the backlighting itself combined with the higher resolution that makes images appear artificial to me.
I've seen a fair amount of sets, some of which were calibrated and they just didn't do it for me. The picture is incredible, bright/vibrant colors and great detail though. Scott
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KeithL
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Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Sept 5, 2019 23:11:09 GMT -5
There are lots of things that can contribute to a picture that seems unnaturally bright, colorful, or sharp... First of all, it's worth noting that we rarely see a picture on a TV that actually looks perfectly natural. Much as with photos, the picture you see on the TV is carefully tuned so that it appears natural, but that is a sort of illusion. Our eyes work differently than a camera... If you've ever seen raw video, shot using a camera with a full range of contrast, it actually looks somewhat odd before it's adjusted for viewing... Second, remember that high contrast and bright colors are simply in fashion lately. With the advent of 4k and HDR, people expect brighter colors and higher contrast, and are therefore disappointed with "a plain looking picture".. And, as a result of this, many new movies are being filmed and mixed (or remastered) that way. (So a lot of what you're seeing could simply be a well-calibrated TV accurately reproducing a movie that is itself unnaturally bright and colorful.) A lof of new movies, and especially demos, look unnaturally bright and colorful simply because they ARE unnaturally bright and colorful. The other thing is that there are many methods of artificial sharpening that are applied to video at various points in the production process. For example, while your TV itself may add sharpening, sharpening may already have been applied at multiple points during processing. With the most common form of sharpening, properly called "unsharp masking", artificial "halos" are added to the image to make it appear sharper. Wherever a bright area touches a dark area, a dark "halo" is added to the edge of the dark area, and a light halo is added to the edge of the light area. The result is an artificially extreme contrast where the two areas meet - which our eyes interpret as the picture being sharper. HOWEVER, the exact details of how this is done are carefully tuned to the resolution and scale of the image itself. In fact, when applied to an image for printing, the sharpening settings are usually fine tuned to the size at which the image will be printed, and the distance from which it will be viewed. So, for example, the sharpening that looks great when watching that 1080p image on a 32" screen may look odd when viewed on a 4k UHD 50" screen. (So, even if you have sharpening turned off on your 4k TV, you may still be seeing artifacts left over from sharpening that was applied elsewhere.) Interesting about it being sharper that what your eyes see. I love the huge amount of detail I get on 4k tvs. But interestingly when I adjusted the calibration the images looked a little softer due to better black levels. You may be experiencing a black crush of sorts that is used to make the colors and detail "pop" by switching over to deep black more quickly. Basically a form of image processing. Another way this iamge processing works is by also increasing the contrast to make the details appear sharper. This appears "too sharp" to my eyes too as it is not natural. The good news is that these features are for the most part disabled. It could be some of the sets I've seen had the wrong settings, contrast jacked etc but I think it's the backlighting itself combined with the higher resolution that makes images appear artificial to me. I've seen a fair amount of sets, some of which were calibrated and they just didn't do it for me. The picture is incredible, bright/vibrant colors and great detail though. Scott
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 5, 2019 23:12:52 GMT -5
Probably the best quality picture I've seen so far is on the disk of The Revenant... especially the outdoor scenes with snow and pine trees. (it was one of the first 4k UHD discs... and is still a go-to one for demoing exactly how good it can look.) I've just decided on a 4k UHD player (Sony X700). So now I have to buy a 4k disc with wich to test it out. But the problem I've found is that there are a lot of momvies which may be mastered in 4k but have 2k digital (CGI) intermediaries and the such. Some movies are not even shot in 4k and later "upsampled". So 1. What are some good true 4k discs with 4k everything? 2. What are your best looking 4k movies you would recommend to demo? Here the movies don't have to be "true 4k" discs. I'm merely interested in what you think is the best looking in picture quality. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 5, 2019 23:26:17 GMT -5
I should have added that backlighted images simply DO NOT look the same as reflective images (which is what printed images, and most of what we see in real life, actually are). So, even though you can adjust a backlighted image to the same exact parameters as a printed image, or an actual physical object, it will always look different.... (And, because a modern 4k TV can match the color and brightness so well, it can actually make the basic difference between the image types more noticeable.) Interesting about it being sharper that what your eyes see. I love the huge amount of detail I get on 4k tvs. But interestingly when I adjusted the calibration the images looked a little softer due to better black levels. You may be experiencing a black crush of sorts that is used to make the colors and detail "pop" by switching over to deep black more quickly. Basically a form of image processing. Another way this iamge processing works is by also increasing the contrast to make the details appear sharper. This appears "too sharp" to my eyes too as it is not natural. The good news is that these features are for the most part disabled. It could be some of the sets I've seen had the wrong settings, contrast jacked etc but I think it's the backlighting itself combined with the higher resolution that makes images appear artificial to me. I've seen a fair amount of sets, some of which were calibrated and they just didn't do it for me. The picture is incredible, bright/vibrant colors and great detail though. Scott
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