Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 3:26:08 GMT -5
Yeah right, a Chinese factory is gonna make a few a month or so, nonsense Oh my, just because the originals were doesn't mean the "Heritage" releases have to be made in China. Just do what they do for the Gen 3's, order, say, 20 boards and assemble them at Franklin. As a limited, factory certified release, to the first 10 customers, sell them in pairs only. If that goes well then do another 20, say, a few months later, makes them even more desirable especially if Lonnie signs each one. It's not like they sold 1,000's of them when they were a normal product line anyway. Merry Xmas Gary I bought my XPA-5 about 6 years ago on sale for $700. What a power beast, more than 300 per channel All Channels Operating into my Emotiva Reference 4 ohm speakers. Do you think if I send it back to Franklin, Lonnie would sign it for me?  |
|
|
|
Post by brutiarti on Dec 15, 2019 9:52:50 GMT -5
And that’s where the money is?? 😂 Lots of money to be made, they were selling for $1k back in 2014 with the odd "special" at $800 and Emotiva were making money on them at that price. The engineering is fully amortised now, so anything above cost is cream. The problem is how many people are going to prefer the tried and proven Gen 2 design with switchable Class A and linear power supply over the current model? That's the risk, making good money on the XPA-1 Gen 2 itself is a no brainer. Merry Xmas Gary You are describing the business model of a boutique brand. Emotiva relies on volume to make money and the brand itself is based on that |
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Dec 15, 2019 20:03:49 GMT -5
e Lots of money to be made, they were selling for $1k back in 2014 with the odd "special" at $800 and Emotiva were making money on them at that price. The engineering is fully amortised now, so anything above cost is cream. The problem is how many people are going to prefer the tried and proven Gen 2 design with switchable Class A and linear power supply over the current model? That's the risk, making good money on the XPA-1 Gen 2 itself is a no brainer. You are describing the business model of a boutique brand. Emotiva relies on volume to make money and the brand itself is based on that There are plenty of "volume" manufacturers who have "boutique" products. Even Ferrari, for example the SP12 EC where the "EC" stands for Eric Clapton, or the 458 Spider Sergio as a tribute to the late and great Sergio Pininfarina. Porsche has the limited edition 911 Speedster, the 911 (991) R etc. Some even have them as sub brands, Mercedes has AMG, BMW has M, Toyota has Lexus which then has F us a sub sub brand. Emotiva could have their own, "The LV limited edition series". Then, many people would categorise Emotiva's total volume as "boutique" compared to, say, Marantz, Sony, Denon, Bose etc. Merry Xmas Gary |
|
|
|
Post by brutiarti on Dec 15, 2019 21:00:14 GMT -5
Profit margins from boutique auto makers belong to a different reality. I don’t know how hold are you but it seems that you have outdated business ideas.
|
|
|
|
Post by rbk123 on Dec 15, 2019 21:23:06 GMT -5
Who knew Ferrari was a volume manufacturer?  |
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Dec 15, 2019 22:29:46 GMT -5
Who knew Ferrari was a volume manufacturer? The Emotiva of the automobile world, that has a boutique range that sells inside their own boutiqueness  Ferrari make around 10,000 cars a year and is the most profitable manufacturer per car, nothing wrong with their business model. Compared to, say, Tesla that sells 50 times as many cars and has never made an annual profit ever and loses money on every car they make.  Merry Xmas Gary |
|
|
|
Post by adaboy on Dec 15, 2019 23:44:22 GMT -5
Alright, let's get back to bringing back the XPA-1's.
Dumb business model to stop making what your customers want.
|
|
|
|
Post by mick on Dec 16, 2019 1:55:43 GMT -5
And bring back the XPA-1L as well, a limit addition with gold lettering.  |
|
|
|
Post by routlaw on Dec 16, 2019 12:05:49 GMT -5
We can talk about business models till the cows come home, but I doubt this has anything to do with why Emotiva is most likely not going to resurrect an older model of their amps. I make this statement as though I had some inside scoop on what and how they consider bringing products to the market. I don't and for that matter none of us do. We shouldn't pretend otherwise.
I've not had the time to write up my full review of the DR-1's and how they compare to the XPA-1 Gen 2 due to my current busy schedule. Just briefly having spent a couple of weeks with the DR-1's I would never in another lifetime go back to the older linear power supply amps. Not that it took a couple of weeks to figure this out, more like a couple of days if not a few hours.
Regardless of what some others think, truth is the newer 3 rd generation of amps outperform the older amps and in my system I wouldn't even call it a close race. People will believe what they want to believe audiophiles are no exception. In the meantime I whole heartedly applaud Emotiva for their newer generation of amps and will never miss my older XPA-1 Gen 2 amps, not the weight, not the heat, not the wasted energy and certainly not their comparative performance.
|
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Dec 16, 2019 12:48:32 GMT -5
We can talk about business models till the cows come home, but I doubt this has anything to do with why Emotiva is most likely not going to resurrect an older model of their amps. I make this statement as though I had some inside scoop on what and how they consider bringing products to the market. I don't and for that matter none of us do. We shouldn't pretend otherwise. I've not had the time to write up my full review of the DR-1's and how they compare to the XPA-1 Gen 2 due to my current busy schedule. Just briefly having spent a couple of weeks with the DR-1's I would never in another lifetime to back to the older linear power supply amps. Not that it took a couple of weeks to figure this out, more like a couple of days if not a few hours. Regardless of what some others think, truth is the newer 3 rd generation of amps outperform the older amps and in my system I wouldn't even call it a close race. People will believe what they want to believe audiophiles are no exception. In the meantime I whole heartedly applaud Emotiva for their newer generation of amps and will never miss my older XPA-1 Gen 2 amps, not the weight, not the heat, not the wasted energy and certainly not their comparative performance. I have not heard the DR-1 models. However I have heard the gen 3 (single blade) models as well as the XPA-1 gen 2. The XPA-2 single blade gen 3 simply doesn't sound as good as the XPA-1 gen 2. We even preferred the Bas-x A-300 to the XPA-2 gen 3. It's good to hear that you have positive experiences with the DR-1. I would be interested in hearing it! |
|
|
|
Post by tropicallutefisk on Dec 16, 2019 13:33:02 GMT -5
We can talk about business models till the cows come home, but I doubt this has anything to do with why Emotiva is most likely not going to resurrect an older model of their amps. I make this statement as though I had some inside scoop on what and how they consider bringing products to the market. I don't and for that matter none of us do. We shouldn't pretend otherwise. I've not had the time to write up my full review of the DR-1's and how they compare to the XPA-1 Gen 2 due to my current busy schedule. Just briefly having spent a couple of weeks with the DR-1's I would never in another lifetime to back to the older linear power supply amps. Not that it took a couple of weeks to figure this out, more like a couple of days if not a few hours. Regardless of what some others think, truth is the newer 3 rd generation of amps outperform the older amps and in my system I wouldn't even call it a close race. People will believe what they want to believe audiophiles are no exception. In the meantime I whole heartedly applaud Emotiva for their newer generation of amps and will never miss my older XPA-1 Gen 2 amps, not the weight, not the heat, not the wasted energy and certainly not their comparative performance. I went from XPA-1L to a Dr1 on my center channel. I would not say it was a huge difference with this application. However, I did notice a slightly smoother, more refined sound that I feel has made the dialogue clearer. Now the DR1s compared to the stereo McIntosh they replaced? Totally night and day as heard through my Maggies. Bass is tighter and more forceful, the highs were much more revealing, the soundstage widened out and imaging was much improved. If anything they seemed a bit bright, but that was easily remedied with a 0.5 ohm resistor on the tweeter. Wish I could offer up more details on the DR vs IL but I never had a pair to compare against the DR1s. Sufficed to say I am very pleased with the DR1s. |
|
|
|
Post by mack71 on Dec 16, 2019 15:27:57 GMT -5
I join this opinion, .... I had XPR 1 and XPA 1 gen 1 gen 2, and now DR1 . I also have Hegle H30 2X, yes they are better (different) in several respects, but this is really a small difference. Mathematically I would compare that Dr 1 is 85-90% H30. Interestingly, I noticed a better synergy of the Dr 1 with the Hegel p30 preamplifier than the H30. Also with the Mcintosch c52 DR1 preamplifier it is wonderful, but with the h30 it is even better. It is worth experimenting because you can get great results in this way. I have no doubt that DR1 is the best Emotiva amplifier with great potential and can compete with more expensive amplifiers 5 times without any complexes We can talk about business models till the cows come home, but I doubt this has anything to do with why Emotiva is most likely not going to resurrect an older model of their amps. I make this statement as though I had some inside scoop on what and how they consider bringing products to the market. I don't and for that matter none of us do. We shouldn't pretend otherwise. I've not had the time to write up my full review of the DR-1's and how they compare to the XPA-1 Gen 2 due to my current busy schedule. Just briefly having spent a couple of weeks with the DR-1's I would never in another lifetime go back to the older linear power supply amps. Not that it took a couple of weeks to figure this out, more like a couple of days if not a few hours. Regardless of what some others think, truth is the newer 3 rd generation of amps outperform the older amps and in my system I wouldn't even call it a close race. People will believe what they want to believe audiophiles are no exception. In the meantime I whole heartedly applaud Emotiva for their newer generation of amps and will never miss my older XPA-1 Gen 2 amps, not the weight, not the heat, not the wasted energy and certainly not their comparative performance. |
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,264
|
Post by KeithL on Dec 16, 2019 16:29:40 GMT -5
Making what most of your customers want is a good business model.
Making what a few customers want, in small quantities, when there is no significant economy of scale, is NOT an especially good idea. (Unless, of course, you want to make them ten at a time in your garage.)
Alright, let's get back to bringing back the XPA-1's. Dumb business model to stop making what your customers want. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,264
|
Post by KeithL on Dec 16, 2019 16:42:21 GMT -5
Well, if it was THAT easy, then you should consider simply buying one and copying it.
You're quite right in that we wouldn't have to design them again... but we would still have to build them.
The reality is that, once you get past "building it by hand out of metal plates and blocks of wood in your garage", production gets a lot more complicated. For starters, custom parts like circuit boards and heat sinks cost a lot more to make when you only want ten than when you're willing to commit to a batch of 500. And then there are minor issues, like ordering all the parts, which are also a lot cheaper in larger quantities. And then you have to store those parts.
And then there is the small issue of rearranging the production floor to build and test a different product. It is simply not practical to build a modern product a few at a time - unless you're prepared to charge three or four times as much as when they were built in quantity.
I don’t think that they are in the position to produce too many new products or bring back old ones. The rmc/xmc is eating tons of resources and let’s hope that emo can make it. If not we will be witnessing how management can bring down a company really fast. Schiit sticking to their guns (amps/dac) is thriving. The design of the XPA-1 Gen 2 is done, no engineering required. The big thing is it doesn't need software, no complex firmware to develop and debug, it's done, they can just make it. The skill sets are very different between an analogue power amp and a processor and I just don't see how assembling and selling a well proven power amp would have any effect whatsoever on writing software for processors. They are worlds apart. Merry Xmas Gary |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,264
|
Post by KeithL on Dec 16, 2019 16:57:43 GMT -5
I would also point out that the term "high end" is itself not especially well defined.
Does "high end" mean: "big, heavy, and expensive"...? Or does it mean: "built like a Sherman tank"...?
(Just for the record, I should point out that the main virtue of Sherman tanks was that they were cheap to mass produce; as I recall they were NOT known for being especially reliable or safe.)
Or does "high end" actually mean "sounds better"...?
I absolutely refuse to get into discussions about individual products here.... But an awful lot of "high end audio gear" is very pretty, and some of it may also outlive its owner by a few centuries, but not all of it actually sounds especially good. In fact, it's not all that difficult to design attractive well built gear, using high quality parts, that still actually sounds bad... Audiophiles love the "hero narrative": "Brilliant engineer quits lucrative job at NASA to dedicate genius talents to selling expensive amplifiers to a few discerning audiophiles". And, yes, that may occasionally happen once in a while. (However, sadly, a lot of boutique gear is also designed by guys with an interesting idea, and not much engineering talent, who should never have quit their day jobs.)
We're quite satisfied to define "our assault on the high-end" as "bringing you equipment that sounds as good or better for a much more affordable price". And, when we read comments from people who replaced really expensive gear with ours... And most of them say that ours cost a lot less, but sounds at least as good, or even better... Then we figure that we're winning that battle... From some people I get the distinct impression that they believe that: "high end amplifiers should have linear power supplies". However, in terms of the technology, that claim is really only based on the weaknesses of certain specific early SMPS designs. Well... times have changed...
Let's try another statement: "a real high end amplifier should have a fully regulated main power supply". You may be surprised to learn that very few so-called high end amplifiers have fully regulated linear power supplies. But, in case you didn't know, the SMPS in our XPA Gen3 and XPA-DR amps is fully regulated...
At this point in history a linear power supply in a power amplifier is like a carburetor in a car. There have certainly been many great cars throughout history that used carburetors. And you most certainly could build a great car today that used one. But, today, it is simpler to build a good car using fuel injection, which is exactly why so many modern cars use fuel injection.
That new SMPS allows us to build an amplifier that: - is both more efficient and more reliable than our previous models - costs less to ship and is less likely to experience shipping damage on its way to you than our previous models - is a lot easier to install and move around than our previous models
- most people agree sounds as good or better than our previous models
Hi audiobill - You missed an important word. The word was " major" consumer electronics manufacturers. That means the Japanese giants such as Yamaha, Denon, Sony, Integra, Pioneer, and a few others that I've missed. Yes, there will always be a specialty demand for older technologies (vinyl, for example and amps with heavy-iron power supplies), but when demand drops (and it will), the major manufacturers will drop those products as well. And I contend that all the Japanese Giants WILL soon be changing their technologies. As to Emotiva products being "an all-out assault on the high end," that hasn't been the case for awhile, and won't be anywhere in the future. Emotiva first needs to survive financially. If they decide to make only a few, very high-end products, then those products must return a HUGE profit margin to keep the company afloat, meaning MUCH higher prices. Instead, Emotiva has cast their lot in with the big boys, and chosen to make many products, all market-competitive, and at affordable prices. But to stay in business with that model, their sales figures must be high to sustain the R&D costs (they make less profit on each item sold). Emotiva can charge a premium if (and only if) their products sound better than the mass market giants. But if the premium is too large, or if the sonic difference isn't immediately obvious to the potential purchaser, then that sale will be lost. For now, Emotiva is working their niche and (hopefully) doing well financially. But the Japanese Giants aren't standing still either, and Emotiva will need continuous improvement to remain competitive. The benefits of this competition go to the consumers who get better-and-better-sounding products at affordable prices. Cordially - Boom |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,264
|
Post by KeithL on Dec 16, 2019 17:03:54 GMT -5
Stereophile is a commercial magazine. As with any other commercial magazine they are supported largely by the money they are paid by advertisers who advertise products in their magazine.
Considering the great subscription discounts they offer from time to time, and what printed media costs to distribute, it's clear that income from selling magazines isn't what's keeping the lights on. (This is going to be true for any publication that sells subscriptions at a reasonable price these days... they do have to eat.)
What agenda would this be? And you know this how? Otherwise I do agree to some extent I would not make a purchase solely on what any of these magazines stated or recommended, but I would also not completely disregard it either. |
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Dec 16, 2019 18:08:44 GMT -5
Well, if it was THAT easy, then you should consider simply buying one and copying it. But that would require reverse engineering Keith, plus circuit board masters, tooling, process assembly and testing documentation etc that you guys have already paid for and amortised over the life of the product. Much more cost effective for Emotiva to do it Merry Xmas Gary |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Dec 23, 2019 19:02:30 GMT -5
Hi audiobill - You missed an important word. The word was " major" consumer electronics manufacturers. That means the Japanese giants such as Yamaha, Denon, Sony, Integra, Pioneer, and a few others that I've missed. Yes, there will always be a specialty demand for older technologies (vinyl, for example and amps with heavy-iron power supplies), but when demand drops (and it will), the major manufacturers will drop those products as well. And I contend that all the Japanese Giants WILL soon be changing their technologies. As to Emotiva products being "an all-out assault on the high end," that hasn't been the case for awhile, and won't be anywhere in the future. Emotiva first needs to survive financially. If they decide to make only a few, very high-end products, then those products must return a HUGE profit margin to keep the company afloat, meaning MUCH higher prices. Instead, Emotiva has cast their lot in with the big boys, and chosen to make many products, all market-competitive, and at affordable prices. But to stay in business with that model, their sales figures must be high to sustain the R&D costs (they make less profit on each item sold). Emotiva can charge a premium if (and only if) their products sound better than the mass market giants. But if the premium is too large, or if the sonic difference isn't immediately obvious to the potential purchaser, then that sale will be lost. For now, Emotiva is working their niche and (hopefully) doing well financially. But the Japanese Giants aren't standing still either, and Emotiva will need continuous improvement to remain competitive. The benefits of this competition go to the consumers who get better-and-better-sounding products at affordable prices. Cordially - Boom You make a good case. Also? I think the XPA-1 was killing them (EMO) on Shipping. I recently looked at a pair of KLIPSCH Forte III speakers. They are maybe 80lb or so PER and come shipped on a single pallet. Some of the estimates I saw run in the 300$ and change region. I'll shop local and avoid the hassle, even at list price. |
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Dec 24, 2019 4:51:15 GMT -5
I think the XPA-1 was killing them (EMO) on Shipping. Not the case when shipping to Australia, the airfreight difference is less that 10% cheaper on the XPA-1 DR1 than the XPA-1 Gen2. Freight is calculated on dimensions as well as weight and since they are both the same size it’s not surprising that their freight is similar. In comparison to cost of the amp itself freight is next to irrelevant. Even 15,00 kilometres of airfreight The increased price of the DR1 compared to the Gen 2 dwarfs the minuscule saving in freight many times over. Merry Xmas Gary |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Dec 24, 2019 7:42:50 GMT -5
What about CLAIMS? That's what I was getting at. Not the cost of shipping as much as claims....damages and such during shipping....
|
|
