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Post by geebo on May 26, 2020 6:30:37 GMT -5
I tried it just now and Nightfly sounds fine with Neural:X. Now I will add that I have ripped the DVD-A to 96kHz because at 48KhZ I often don't get a center or surrounds playing which has been an issue since I got the RMC. When upsampled to 96kHz it always plays all channels properly. I did try the 48kHz version and in surround it wasn't producing sound out of the center and surrounds and when I selected Neural:X the sound took a turn for the worse but now all channels were playing. Switching back to Surround I was getting only the L, R and Sub channels. Once again I tried the 96kHz version and all channels played properly using Surround and switching to Neural:X exhibited no degradation in sound and only added sound to the height speakers. 48kHz doesn't work on your RMC??? Maybe this is the same problem as the rest of us are getting. Our dts tracked being messed up by Neural:X are probably also 48kHz 48kHz does work for most of my other discs that have it but that particular DVD-A of Nightfly will not 95% of the time. I resampled it to 96kHz and it plays back correctly every time. I then desampled that 96kHz version back to 48kHz and the problem returned. I've played it with an Oppo 203 and a Zidoo Z10 with the same results. |
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Post by megash0n on May 26, 2020 6:44:31 GMT -5
Any 5.1 dts or PCM track in any speaker configuration with more than 5.1 speakers so that dts Neural:X can be used to ruin either format instead of upmix it! My speaker is setup for 7.2. (My tops aren't active yet) I've tried a few dtsHD MA 5.1 movies and Neural:X upmixed them all to 7.2 whether set to bitstream or PCM. Neural:X is quieter than Surround by about 6dB when I was able to measure short sequences, and this can vary a little by scene. =========================================================== dtsHD MA 5.1 discs, Sony X700: Neural:X upmixed to 7.2, Surround did not upmix OPPO 105: Neural:X upmixed to 7.2, Surround did not upmix =========================================================== Streaming Thor PCM-5.1 from Prime Neural:X upmixed to 7.2, Surround did not upmix, however Dolby Surround became available and does upmix to 7.2 ========================================================== So far I'm getting consistent results where Neural:X is quieter, but I'm not noticing any other issue. Toggling between modes consistently works. What else should I try? Not sure. I don't have to be picky about the movie I watch. If it is DTS, the issue is there. I can't speak much for the up mixing , due to not having rear channels, but I can tell you I don't hear some things on the DTS 6.1 track from the opening scene of Star Wars III. When you notice it is softer, are you not picking up on "data" missing? Given that DTS Neural-X is all object, I think, you may not experience this without heights. This just led me to a thought. Are we possibly missing everything below the crossover point on surrounds and height channels... Possibly the center? This coupled with a up mixing and down mixing issue. Something to think about. |
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Post by bitzerjdb on May 26, 2020 6:55:53 GMT -5
Remember, my issues continued when switching to 1080i, at this setting, the video was good, but the audio was missing. Also, using a marginal cable, the system just works when connected to my TV. On/Off, skipping forward, going in and out of apps, etc...never a hickup. Also, hitting the Tivo boards I don't see anyone with 4k sync issues... Not saying it isn't TIVOs issue, but the pointers are pointing in another direction. I don't mean this as a criticism, my fix is a direct run. I hope the data points allow Emotiva to tweak their interface, if needed. Hey ttocs... I stripped out the body of this quote to keep the thread short, but you'll know what I'm responding to. Yes, it is uncommon to see, but 36bit color is the same as 12bit. Your Oppo is just stating the "total" bit depth it sees at its own input versus "bits per color" on its output side. It's all good there. Everything that I'm seeing in what you've posted looks fine to me outside of the TiVo when using 4K Auto. However, I don't believe that's you or the XMC-2... I believe it's TiVo. What I don't care for is how TiVo has chosen to create a "one size fits all" output format when using the "4K" Auto setting. 4K:60Hz/BT.2020 YCbCr 4:2:2/12bits requires an 18GHz HDMI link and 17.8 gbps of total cable bandwidth between the source and the sink. Everything in-between needs line up perfectly to sustain that. The "green screen" I saw in a previous post now makes perfect sense...  IMHO, for most content where a TiVo is used, this is a total waste of time and energy. In my mind, there's no wonder some here are having connection issues with their TiVos as of late. With this kind of handshake and signal requirement, any "marginal" HDMI cable will fail. This will certainly require the "right" cable combination between the source, the switch (XMC/RMC) and the sink. Lastly, in regards to the "8bit HDR" that was being reported on your XMC-2, I honestly believe that this is just a plain and simple reporting error. Again, likely caused by the XMC-2 seeing the BT.2020 container that was being sent by the TiVo without containing actual 10 bit HDR content. Maybe it's something Emotiva should look into (if it happens again) as it really shouldn't report "HDR" without first seeing an actual HDR flag. I'll dig deeper once I get my RMC-1L...  |
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Post by andersmi on May 26, 2020 7:21:58 GMT -5
How about taking a sample of the movie you have trouble with testing that you still have the problem if so send it to him, this way you know are using the exactly the same source. I did this with Damon and he was able reproduce the missing center bug. Was this directed to me, or did you miss quote? I fortunately am one of the ones who have no issues with upmixing of DTS tracks. But yeah agree that perhaps all this could be resolved by contacting Emo support, rather than batting it back and forth here. Yeah sorry thought LCSeminole was an Emotiva employee, but maybe you could send the movie sample to LCSeminole and others that can't replicate the issue, if they can replicate it with the sample it must be something with the movie source if not is must be an hardware/configuration issue. Next step could be to make a backup of your processor configuration and sending it to LCSeminole ect. if they can replicate it there it must be something with your specific configuration, if not it must be something with the hardware that are playing the movie. |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on May 26, 2020 7:56:26 GMT -5
Was this directed to me, or did you miss quote? I fortunately am one of the ones who have no issues with upmixing of DTS tracks. But yeah agree that perhaps all this could be resolved by contacting Emo support, rather than batting it back and forth here. Yeah sorry thought LCSeminole was an Emotiva employee, but maybe you could send the movie sample to LCSeminole and others that can't replicate the issue, if they can replicate it with the sample it must be something with the movie source if not is must be an hardware/configuration issue. Next step could be to make a backup of your processor configuration and sending it to LCSeminole ect. if they can replicate it there it must be something with your specific configuration, if not it must be something with the hardware that are playing the movie. Not an Emotiva employee, just a Lounge Moderator. I was just trying to replicate the DTS problem Marc/megashOn/ bluescale are having so I could help in describing to Damon how to replicate it, thus getting the bug fixed with the code writers. |
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Post by steelman1991 on May 26, 2020 8:03:55 GMT -5
Yeah sorry thought LCSeminole was an Emotiva employee, but maybe you could send the movie sample to LCSeminole and others that can't replicate the issue, if they can replicate it with the sample it must be something with the movie source if not is must be an hardware/configuration issue. Next step could be to make a backup of your processor configuration and sending it to LCSeminole ect. if they can replicate it there it must be something with your specific configuration, if not it must be something with the hardware that are playing the movie. Not an Emotiva employee, just a Lounge Moderator. I was just trying to replicate the DTS problem Marc/megashOn/ bluescale are having so I could help in describing to Damon how to replicate it, thus getting the bug fixed with the code writers.
I take it Damon is aware of the issue these users are having?
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Post by ttocs on May 26, 2020 8:10:14 GMT -5
Remember, my issues continued when switching to 1080i, at this setting, the video was good, but the audio was missing. Also, using a marginal cable, the system just works when connected to my TV. On/Off, skipping forward, going in and out of apps, etc...never a hickup. Also, hitting the Tivo boards I don't see anyone with 4k sync issues... Not saying it isn't TIVOs issue, but the pointers are pointing in another direction. I don't mean this as a criticism, my fix is a direct run. I hope the data points allow Emotiva to tweak their interface, if needed. Well, for me it's an eye opener that TiVo handles color the way they do, mapping ALL color into a BT2020 wrapper. This answers why the reporting has been so goofy vs all my other components. Re TiVo audio, I have a buddy in California that's been having audio issues, but only with lip sync. Cox Cable has been out to check and installed attenuators to get the signal down to TiVo specs, problem continues - but not as bad. Interesting, huh? His box is connected directly to his LG OLED. |
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Post by ttocs on May 26, 2020 8:21:47 GMT -5
I just realized that when I change the audio on my TiVo from Dolby to PCM that the volume drops. So just like when I change from dts to Dolby for a movie, Dolby is louder.
Not saying anything is wrong here, just that Dolby is substantially louder. Just pointing this out in case it relates to anything else.
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Post by LCSeminole on May 26, 2020 8:28:39 GMT -5
Not an Emotiva employee, just a Lounge Moderator. I was just trying to replicate the DTS problem Marc/megashOn/ bluescale are having so I could help in describing to Damon how to replicate it, thus getting the bug fixed with the code writers. I take it Damon is aware of the issue these users are having?
Definitely aware, but replicating it is allusive at this point. It’s like it’s a “ghost in the machine” at this point since only so many are having this issue. |
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Post by steelman1991 on May 26, 2020 8:30:22 GMT -5
I take it Damon is aware of the issue these users are having?
Definitely aware, but replicating it is allusive at this point. It’s like it’s a “ghost in the machine” at this point since only so many are having this issue. Definitely a strange one. |
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Post by doc1963 on May 26, 2020 9:08:15 GMT -5
Remember, my issues continued when switching to 1080i, at this setting, the video was good, but the audio was missing. Also, using a marginal cable, the system just works when connected to my TV. On/Off, skipping forward, going in and out of apps, etc...never a hickup. Also, hitting the Tivo boards I don't see anyone with 4k sync issues... Not saying it isn't TIVOs issue, but the pointers are pointing in another direction. I don't mean this as a criticism, my fix is a direct run. I hope the data points allow Emotiva to tweak their interface, if needed. That's absolutely fair, but let me just say that most things "do" work when connected directly to the TV. The cable run is much shorter and there are no other complex components (or additional cables) in the signal path to present timing and/or signal equalization issues. My statement was more to the point that I'm not surprised that members here "are" having issues based upon the type of signal presented by the TiVo (when set to 4K) and the complexity involved in being able to reliably transport that level of signal through to the display. Having said that, both of these issues (both audio and video synchronization and lock) can be further mitigated by Emotiva if they choose to put the time into it. My 8805 has no issues with my TiVo (even when set to "4K Auto") and I wouldn't think that the XMC/RMC processors should have issues either. However, I do use cables that have proven themselves to be extremely reliable. Namely, those cables are Monoprice "Certified" High Speed Premium cables (between all of my sources and the processor) and a Ruipro "Hybrid" Fiber Optic active cable (between my processor and display). This combination of cables has never failed me. I'm not saying that"s a surefire cure, but it certainly does help. Hopefully, I'll be lucky enough to not have issues between my TiVo and new RMC-1L, but if I do, I'll be in touch with support... |
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Post by megash0n on May 26, 2020 9:10:56 GMT -5
I take it Damon is aware of the issue these users are having?
Definitely aware, but replicating it is allusive at this point. It’s like it’s a “ghost in the machine” at this point since only so many are having this issue. Yeah, I feel like 5 or 6 have witnessed this if I remember correctly. 3 or 4 vocal with a couple more that have commented once or twice over time. |
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Post by doc1963 on May 26, 2020 10:09:45 GMT -5
Remember, my issues continued when switching to 1080i, at this setting, the video was good, but the audio was missing. Also, using a marginal cable, the system just works when connected to my TV. On/Off, skipping forward, going in and out of apps, etc...never a hickup. Also, hitting the Tivo boards I don't see anyone with 4k sync issues... Not saying it isn't TIVOs issue, but the pointers are pointing in another direction. I don't mean this as a criticism, my fix is a direct run. I hope the data points allow Emotiva to tweak their interface, if needed. Well, for me it's an eye opener that TiVo handles color the way they do, mapping ALL color into a BT2020 wrapper. This answers why the reporting has been so goofy vs all my other components. Re TiVo audio, I have a buddy in California that's been having audio issues, but only with lip sync. Cox Cable has been out to check and installed attenuators to get the signal down to TiVo specs, problem continues - but not as bad. Interesting, huh? His box is connected directly to his LG OLED. Hey ttocs ... tell your friend to stop chasing his tail. That lip-sync problem is caused by the LG OLED TVs not supporting "HDMI Auto Lip-Sync". If he's having issues, he'll have to adjust it manually. With 60fps content, you won't see problems. With true 24fps content, it starts to show. Dolby Vision content shows it worst due to the additional processing lag time. I've found that each of my HDMI sources require me to adjust the lip-sync manually. Each HDMI input has a different lip-sync setting. Nice huh..? Not the end of the world, but you shouldn't have to do this. Sometimes you've just gotta take the bad along with the good... |
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Post by bluescale on May 26, 2020 11:42:36 GMT -5
ok, I have had the largest difference between all of this testing thus far. I had to dig to find a Bluray disk with DTS on it. My testing consisted of Star Wars Episode III playing thru a Xbox One X plugged into HDMI 1. This track is DTS-HD MA 6.1. This test somewhat confirmed, un-scientifically, my suspicion that LFE isn't much affected. It is anything below the crossover point in relation to "low end complaints". I played the opening scene with Surround enabled, and it sounded really great. You could hear the whining of the ships all throughout the room. The point being... You COULD HEAR the ship's " Tie fighter type whining noise" All thru the first minute or so. I watched up until the first explosion which is a minute or so in. The explosion was impactful. Then, engaged auto mode and started over. The LFE track, low rumble at the beginning, didn't appear to be any different. But, when the ships came into the frame, I realized I couldn't hear them. The whine was almost completely gone. There was so much audio missing from what I had just heard. When I stopped at the explosion, it was almost silent until it happened. The explosion itself was a significant reduction in range and output as before. I encourage anyone with this issue to test this disk. This definitely jibes with what I found. Anything with significant LFE give the illusion of lots of bass, since there's lots of action there, but bass that is part of the main channels is impacted. I have a feeling the difference is most noticeable in movies that have full frequency mixes in all 5 channels, rather than most of the bass being reserved for LFE. |
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Post by bluescale on May 26, 2020 11:59:19 GMT -5
- Rather than Dark Knight as a 7.1 source, it is better and easier to use a 5.1 source in a 7.1 setting (Or more, but I can only speak for 7.1)
- This makes it easier to check that Neural:X is even engaged, as the rear surrounds should not be silent with 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing.
I can confirm that Dark Knight is 5.1. I believe that's true for all of Christopher Nolan's UHD films. |
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Post by bluescale on May 26, 2020 12:01:46 GMT -5
I'm curious, now - for those trying to test the DTS issue, what is your crossover set at? Mine is at 90, and the issue is fairly obvious.
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Post by geebo on May 26, 2020 12:02:50 GMT -5
I'm curious, now - for those trying to test the DTS issue, what is your crossover set at? Mine is at 90, and the issue is fairly obvious. Mine is at 80Hz. |
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Post by megash0n on May 26, 2020 12:10:28 GMT -5
- Rather than Dark Knight as a 7.1 source, it is better and easier to use a 5.1 source in a 7.1 setting (Or more, but I can only speak for 7.1)
- This makes it easier to check that Neural:X is even engaged, as the rear surrounds should not be silent with 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing.
I can confirm that Dark Knight is 5.1. I believe that's true for all of Christopher Nolan's UHD films. My copy is DTS-HD MA 5.1 variable bit rate of 4Mbps |
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Post by megash0n on May 26, 2020 12:12:22 GMT -5
I'm curious, now - for those trying to test the DTS issue, what is your crossover set at? Mine is at 90, and the issue is fairly obvious. Mine is at 80Hz. Mine is at 70 I believe. My LCR is closer to the middle of the room. This seemed to be the best crossover for integration. I think changing to 120hz would make this much worse if we are thinking along the same lines here. |
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Post by markc on May 26, 2020 12:34:40 GMT -5
megash0n My speaker is setup for 7.2. (My tops aren't active yet) I've tried a few dtsHD MA 5.1 movies and Neural:X upmixed them all to 7.2 whether set to bitstream or PCM. Neural:X is quieter than Surround by about 6dB when I was able to measure short sequences, and this can vary a little by scene. =========================================================== dtsHD MA 5.1 discs, Sony X700: Neural:X upmixed to 7.2, Surround did not upmix OPPO 105: Neural:X upmixed to 7.2, Surround did not upmix =========================================================== Streaming Thor PCM-5.1 from Prime Neural:X upmixed to 7.2, Surround did not upmix, however Dolby Surround became available and does upmix to 7.2 ========================================================== So far I'm getting consistent results where Neural:X is quieter, but I'm not noticing any other issue. Toggling between modes consistently works. What else should I try? Not sure. I don't have to be picky about the movie I watch. If it is DTS, the issue is there. I can't speak much for the up mixing , due to not having rear channels, but I can tell you I don't hear some things on the DTS 6.1 track from the opening scene of Star Wars III. When you notice it is softer, are you not picking up on "data" missing? Given that DTS Neural-X is all object, I think, you may not experience this without heights. This just led me to a thought. Are we possibly missing everything below the crossover point on surrounds and height channels... Possibly the center? This coupled with a up mixing and down mixing issue. Something to think about. No, it is not bass redirection or crossover related. I think I tested every permutation in the setup menu and nothing cures the problem. I get the volume drop with my "Speaker Configuration 1" which has everything set to "All Large" (I have big floorstanders so with music, I prefer no crossovers) It is also not identical crossovers all small channels vs differing crossovers. I changed all that to check. You are correct though: It is not just a volume decrease: Audio is definitely getting "lost" from the room. It is not confined just to bass (hence the TIE-fighter fly-over going inaudible for you, that is more of a localisable mid and high range sound) I am pretty certain that Neural:X is extracting audio to channels that don't have speakers (and are set to None in the setup). e.g. upmixing it internally to all of the full dts specification of 7.1.4. I don't have any height channels so audio is discarded |
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