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Post by megash0n on May 26, 2020 12:43:04 GMT -5
Not sure. I don't have to be picky about the movie I watch. If it is DTS, the issue is there. I can't speak much for the up mixing , due to not having rear channels, but I can tell you I don't hear some things on the DTS 6.1 track from the opening scene of Star Wars III. When you notice it is softer, are you not picking up on "data" missing? Given that DTS Neural-X is all object, I think, you may not experience this without heights. This just led me to a thought. Are we possibly missing everything below the crossover point on surrounds and height channels... Possibly the center? This coupled with a up mixing and down mixing issue. Something to think about. No, not that. I think I tested every permutation in the setup menu and nothing cures the problem. I get the volume drop with my "Speaker Configuration 1" which has everything set to "All Large" (I have big floorstanders so with music, I prefer no crossovers) It is also not identical crossovers all small channels vs differing crossovers. I changed all that to check. You are correct though: It is not just a volume decrease: Audio is definitely getting "lost" from the room. It is not confined just to bass (hence the TIE-fighter fly-over going inaudible for you, that is more of a localisable mid and high range sound) I am pretty certain that Neural:X is extracting audio to channels that don't have speakers (and are set to None in the setup). e.g. upmixing it internally to all of the full dts specification of 7.1.4. I don't have any height channels so audio is discarded I agree logically with your statement. I'm thoroughly confused as to how some of us have this glaringly obvious issue while others do not. |
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Post by bluescale on May 26, 2020 12:54:35 GMT -5
No, it is not bass redirection or crossover related. I think I tested every permutation in the setup menu and nothing cures the problem. My theory (can't speak to megash0n) was not that the problem was specific to redirected bass or crossovers, but just that lots of bass can mask obvious problems. I was wondering if maybe LFE is unaffected, and people were double-bassing (i.e., running their fronts as full), perhaps they were not noticing a problem that was indeed there for them. Unfortunately, geebo crossing over at 80 blows that theory out of the water. If I get a chance today, I'm going to try testing this out with bass still redirected, but my subwoofers turned off. I have a feeling the issue will be much easier to hear. If that's the case, I'll call Emotiva, and hopefully that will make it possible for Damon to verify that the issue, or confirm that it's only happening on some processors. |
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Post by steelman1991 on May 26, 2020 13:24:28 GMT -5
No, it is not bass redirection or crossover related. I think I tested every permutation in the setup menu and nothing cures the problem. My theory (can't speak to megash0n ) was not that the problem was specific to redirected bass or crossovers, but just that lots of bass can mask obvious problems. I was wondering if maybe LFE is unaffected, and people were double-bassing (i.e., running their fronts as full), perhaps they were not noticing a problem that was indeed there for them. Unfortunately, geebo crossing over at 80 blows that theory out of the water. If I get a chance today, I'm going to try testing this out with bass still redirected, but my subwoofers turned off. I have a feeling the issue will be much easier to hear. If that's the case, I'll call Emotiva, and hopefully that will make it possible for Damon to verify that the issue, or confirm that it's only happening on some processors. Yip 80Hz for me too. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on May 26, 2020 13:25:06 GMT -5
I'm curious, now - for those trying to test the DTS issue, what is your crossover set at? Mine is at 90, and the issue is fairly obvious. I just now tried some things: I set my system for 7.2 L&R amps are off, set to small @90hz All other speakers small @90hz With the L&R amps off, I was only listening to the Center and surrounds with subs. Other than having to adjust for the volume difference of 6dB between Neural:X and Surround, everything seems normal on two different movies in two different players. So I turned off all speakers and only played the subs. Again, there doesn't seem to be a difference between Neural:X and Surround modes other than the obvious volume difference which I adjust for. The peaks in one scene were about 92-94dB for both Neural:X and Surround. OKAY, here's where is gets different. Playing the movie Red bluray. Nasty gun fire scene culminating with the concussion bomb.
I set the system for 5.2 - no rears
Neural:X now plays A LOT LOUDER, which now makes it the about the same volume or maybe a tick louder than Surround which did not change volume at all. edit: In other words, I don't need to alter the volume level between the two modes to achieve the same volume.
Change the system back to 7.2
Neural:X now plays quieter again.
edit: As markc pointed out to me, when I set the system to 5.2 Neural:X isn't even an option. I simply missed that it wasn't available because I was switching back and forth between Surround and Auto. Doh! So after this was pointed out, I checked, and sure enough - Neural:X will not be available as an option when there is nothing to upmix to.Other than these differences, I don't hear anything that's muffled sounding. Again, once I discovered a volume level difference I made sure to change the volume so the tests were level matched. You guys mention some missing sounds. Please give me a movie scene that's 5.1 with missing sounds to try. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 26, 2020 14:12:43 GMT -5
Definitely aware, but replicating it is allusive at this point. It’s like it’s a “ghost in the machine” at this point since only so many are having this issue. Yeah, I feel like 5 or 6 have witnessed this if I remember correctly. 3 or 4 vocal with a couple more that have commented once or twice over time. I've been following along on this closely as one who intends to buy in the not too distant future. At this point, it seems so limited that it's got to be: 1) a rare problem with the hardware. 2) a problem with the: a) Firmware b) user's setup c) user's source 4) some combo/interaction of any of the above If someone like lcseminole cannot recreate it despite trying - it doesn't seem like 2a alone and it certainly doesn't seem like a built-in hardware problem. A rare hardware issues seems like a long shot. That leaves the others. Mark |
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Post by megash0n on May 26, 2020 14:41:16 GMT -5
I'm curious, now - for those trying to test the DTS issue, what is your crossover set at? Mine is at 90, and the issue is fairly obvious. I just now tried some things: I set my system for 7.2 L&R amps are off, set to small @90hz All other speakers small @90hz With the L&R amps off, I was only listening to the Center and surrounds with subs. Other than having to adjust for the volume difference of 6dB between Neural:X and Surround, everything seems normal on two different movies in two different players. So I turned off all speakers and only played the subs. Again, there doesn't seem to be a difference between Neural:X and Surround modes other than the obvious volume difference which I adjust for. The peaks in one scene were about 92-94dB for both Neural:X and Surround. OKAY, here's where is gets different. Playing the movie Red bluray. Nasty gun fire scene culminating with the concussion bomb. I set the system for 5.2 - no rears Neural:X now plays A LOT LOUDER, which now makes it the about the same volume or maybe a tick louder than Surround which did not change volume at all. edit: In other words, I don't need to alter the volume level between the two modes to achieve the same volume. Change the system back to 7.2 Neural:X now plays quieter again. Other than these differences, I don't hear anything that's muffled sounding. Again, once I discovered a volume level difference I made sure to change the volume so the tests were level matched. You guys mention some missing sounds. Please give me a movie scene that's 5.1 with missing sounds to try. Do you have The Crazies by chance? I tested that a lot last week. Just the opening scene where the town was burning. This was DTS 5.1 and not the lossless tracks. The Dark Knight movies in UHD also. |
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Post by megash0n on May 26, 2020 14:42:28 GMT -5
Yeah, I feel like 5 or 6 have witnessed this if I remember correctly. 3 or 4 vocal with a couple more that have commented once or twice over time. I've been following along on this closely as one who intends to buy in the not too distant future. At this point, it seems so limited that it's got to be: 1) a rare problem with the hardware. 2) a problem with the: a) Firmware b) user's setup c) user's source 4) some combo/interaction of any of the above If someone like lcseminole cannot recreate it despite trying - it doesn't seem like 2a alone and it certainly doesn't seem like a built-in hardware problem. A rare hardware issues seems like a long shot. That leaves the others. Mark I agree since I've experienced the issue consistently since owning the RMC back in January running 1.7 |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on May 26, 2020 16:23:48 GMT -5
Do you have The Crazies by chance? I tested that a lot last week. Just the opening scene where the town was burning. This was DTS 5.1 and not the lossless tracks. The Dark Knight movies in UHD also. Don't have The Crazies, 'cause that would be Nuts!  But I just ordered The Dark Knight UHD, it'll arrive tomorrow. So what scene should I use, and what am I listening for? Does this movie have missing audio? |
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Post by markc on May 26, 2020 16:59:28 GMT -5
I'm curious, now - for those trying to test the DTS issue, what is your crossover set at? Mine is at 90, and the issue is fairly obvious. I just now tried some things: I set my system for 7.2 L&R amps are off, set to small @90hz All other speakers small @90hz With the L&R amps off, I was only listening to the Center and surrounds with subs. Other than having to adjust for the volume difference of 6dB between Neural:X and Surround, everything seems normal on two different movies in two different players. So I turned off all speakers and only played the subs. Again, there doesn't seem to be a difference between Neural:X and Surround modes other than the obvious volume difference which I adjust for. The peaks in one scene were about 92-94dB for both Neural:X and Surround. OKAY, here's where is gets different. Playing the movie Red bluray. Nasty gun fire scene culminating with the concussion bomb. I set the system for 5.2 - no rears Neural:X now plays A LOT LOUDER, which now makes it the about the same volume or maybe a tick louder than Surround which did not change volume at all. edit: In other words, I don't need to alter the volume level between the two modes to achieve the same volume. Change the system back to 7.2 Neural:X now plays quieter again. Other than these differences, I don't hear anything that's muffled sounding. Again, once I discovered a volume level difference I made sure to change the volume so the tests were level matched. You guys mention some missing sounds. Please give me a movie scene that's 5.1 with missing sounds to try. It is really great that you guys are testing all this. I am very appreciative. I have one more thing left to try. I have literally done everything else and there is no more need for anyone to see if it is different sources or crossovers or speaker configurations or menu settings. I have missed nothing. As you can tell from my precise (obsessive!) posts each time, I leave no stone unturned. There is one Emotiva (And Microsoft Windows, I guess!) quirk I haven't covered - sometimes a setting just gets "stuck" and things don't quite function to expected specification. I am going to do a factory reset, initially restoring settings from my saved configuration and test that. If that doesn't correct the problem then I will do a factory reset and enter all my configuration from scratch. Anything I need to consider while doing the factory reset from the menu, to ensure that I really have tried everything? |
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Post by markc on May 26, 2020 17:12:55 GMT -5
I'm curious, now - for those trying to test the DTS issue, what is your crossover set at? Mine is at 90, and the issue is fairly obvious. Playing the movie Red bluray. Nasty gun fire scene culminating with the concussion bomb. I set the system for 5.2 - no rears Neural:X now plays A LOT LOUDER, which now makes it the about the same volume or maybe a tick louder than Surround which did not change volume at all. edit: In other words, I don't need to alter the volume level between the two modes to achieve the same volume. Change the system back to 7.2 Neural:X now plays quieter again. Other than these differences, I don't hear anything that's muffled sounding. Again, once I discovered a volume level difference I made sure to change the volume so the tests were level matched. You guys mention some missing sounds. Please give me a movie scene that's 5.1 with missing sounds to try. Actually, the quirk here is not in the action of the Neural: X playing the same volume as surround in the 5.2 config. If you were playing a 5.1 PCM or Dolby or dts source in a 5.2 setup, then Neural:X should not even appear as an option in the Surround Menu. i.e. Not available for user selection nor able to be implemented by Surround "Auto". 5.1 to 5.1 has no available upmixing on the XMC/RMC-1 and this is correct behaviour. (Unless you use the RMC/XMC-2's faulty bi-amping from the front wide channels, where Dolby and dts upmixers are enabled and auto-utilised inappropriately, as I also highlighted previously) Neural:X would be there if you were playing 2.0 / 2.1 dts or PCM in a 5.2 setup, however. If you are not bi-amping using Front Wides, then I suspect it was just one of those menu quirks where Neural:X shows up as engaged and it actually wasn't (thankfully!) and so sounded the same as "Surround" |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on May 26, 2020 17:41:56 GMT -5
Actually, the quirk here is not in the action of the Neural: X playing the same volume as surround in the 5.2 config. If you were playing a 5.1 PCM or Dolby or dts source in a 5.2 setup, then Neural:X should not even appear as an option in the Surround Menu. i.e. Not available for user selection nor able to be implemented by Surround "Auto". 5.1 to 5.1 has no available upmixing on the XMC/RMC-1 and this is correct behaviour. I was doing so much back and forth with modes that when I changed the system to 5.2 I didn't notice that Neural:X wasn't chosen! I was simply going back and forth from Surround to Auto - which was choosing Neural:X when the system is 7.2 and is choosing Surround when the system is 5.2. Sorry for this confusion on my part, but it helps me to make sure I pay attention in the future. To recap: System set to 5.2: Neural:X is not an available mode to choose System set to 7.2: Neural:X is an available mode to choose The downside to this is that I "thought" I was on to something, so now I'm just back to a system that works as intended. edit: I should probably get my Tops operating asap to have more channels to test, and to have fun with. |
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Post by megash0n on May 26, 2020 18:00:42 GMT -5
Do you have The Crazies by chance? I tested that a lot last week. Just the opening scene where the town was burning. This was DTS 5.1 and not the lossless tracks. The Dark Knight movies in UHD also. Don't have The Crazies, 'cause that would be Nuts! But I just ordered The Dark Knight UHD, it'll arrive tomorrow. So what scene should I use, and what am I listening for? Does this movie have missing audio? I don't have a specific scene. I could maybe pop it in an check out a scene for an example. In relation to missing audio, I've identified two different things. Across the board, I've used the vague "missing audio" to state that some dynamics or bit rate is missing in my opinion. With Star Wars, this was a 6.1 track. I could very easily identify actual missing audio as the small ships spiralled through space. I haven't really sat down to play a bit of audio back and forth to identify specific audio notes that may or may not be missing. It is so glaringly bad when I test that I just stop and pick Surround and move on. |
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Post by geebo on May 26, 2020 18:59:04 GMT -5
I tried it just now and Nightfly sounds fine with Neural:X. Now I will add that I have ripped the DVD-A to 96kHz because at 48KhZ I often don't get a center or surrounds playing which has been an issue since I got the RMC. When upsampled to 96kHz it always plays all channels properly. I did try the 48kHz version and in surround it wasn't producing sound out of the center and surrounds and when I selected Neural:X the sound took a turn for the worse but now all channels were playing. Switching back to Surround I was getting only the L, R and Sub channels. Once again I tried the 96kHz version and all channels played properly using Surround and switching to Neural:X exhibited no degradation in sound and only added sound to the height speakers. Interesting differing results with my Oppo UDP-203 and Panasonic DP-UB820. I just tried this DVD-Audio disc. I can't seem to get the 203 to give me an option for DTS 5.1, only multi-channel PCM and Stereo options. As for the 820, I get the DTS 5.1 and Dolby Digital 5.1 options. With the DTS 5.1, Neural:X plays and sounds as I would think it should with all channels LCR, Side/Back Surrounds and Height channels having sound. The center doesn't play as loud as the fronts but that's been my experience with the few DTS 5.1 DVD-A discs I have. I'm guessing the differences in players for me is the Oppo is seeing it as an actual DVD-A disc as the Panasonic is seeing it as a DVD-Video disc. I just got the actual disc out. It does say DTS and Dolby surround on the liner notes but they are not high the res versions. The PCM surround and stereo are the only options the Oppo gives me. Playing the disc with the RMC gets me no center or surround channel activity and switching to Neural:X sounds pretty bad. DSU sounds better. With either I do get sound coming out of all speakers but when I switch to normal surround I only get L + R. However, the RMC reports PCM 5.1 and Surround. And as I said previously if I play the rip that I upsampled to 96kHz then all channels play as expected with surround and switching to Neural:X has no ill effects. Sounds good in fact. Only when I play this disc at 48kHz do I have these problems. Now what is odd is that if I enable the rear speakers of which I have none the 48kHz version plays fine on the center and surround channels. I can go into setup while it's playing and set the rears back to none and after a pause the music resumes with no center or surrounds. And no matter what I try, the 48kHz version sounds bad with Neural:X. And yes, my surround speakers are connected to the correct outputs. |
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Post by geebo on May 26, 2020 19:06:10 GMT -5
LCSeminole, I wonder what would happen if you played that disc with your rear speakers set to none. Would you also lose center and surrounds?
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Post by megash0n on May 26, 2020 19:16:30 GMT -5
Interesting differing results with my Oppo UDP-203 and Panasonic DP-UB820. I just tried this DVD-Audio disc. I can't seem to get the 203 to give me an option for DTS 5.1, only multi-channel PCM and Stereo options. As for the 820, I get the DTS 5.1 and Dolby Digital 5.1 options. With the DTS 5.1, Neural:X plays and sounds as I would think it should with all channels LCR, Side/Back Surrounds and Height channels having sound. The center doesn't play as loud as the fronts but that's been my experience with the few DTS 5.1 DVD-A discs I have. I'm guessing the differences in players for me is the Oppo is seeing it as an actual DVD-A disc as the Panasonic is seeing it as a DVD-Video disc. I just got the actual disc out. It does say DTS and Dolby surround on the liner notes but they are not high the res versions. The PCM surround and stereo are the only options the Oppo gives me. Playing the disc with the RMC gets me no center or surround channel activity and switching to Neural:X sounds pretty bad. DSU sounds better. With either I do get sound coming out of all speakers but when I switch to normal surround I only get L + R. However, the RMC reports PCM 5.1 and Surround. And as I said previously if I play the rip that I upsampled to 96kHz then all channels play as expected with surround and switching to Neural:X has no ill effects. Sounds good in fact. Only when I play this disc at 48kHz do I have these problems. Now what is odd is that if I enable the rear speakers of which I have none the 48kHz version plays fine on the center and surround channels. I can go into setup while it's playing and set the rears back to none and after a pause the music resumes with no center or surrounds. And no matter what I try, the 48kHz version sounds bad with Neural:X. And yes, my surround speakers are connected to the correct outputs. That is very strange. |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on May 26, 2020 19:29:56 GMT -5
Just getting home from work so I'll give a try in a few, and come back with results.
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Post by LCSeminole on May 26, 2020 21:05:47 GMT -5
LCSeminole, I wonder what would happen if you played that disc with your rear speakers set to none. Would you also lose center and surrounds? When I first put in the disc into the Oppo UDP-203, it was in "DVD-Audio" mode in the "Audio Output Setup" playing the 5.1 pcm track, and yes I got what I would expect from a 5.1 setup with "Surround Backs" disabled, and all channels LCR/SL/SR with sound. I then changed the 203 to DVD-Video mode and got exactly what you are describing with no side surrounds and center. I also could only select "Auto"/"Stereo"/"Direct"/"All Stereo"/"Surround", I then switched the 203 back to DVD-Audio mode and it stayed the same(just the fronts) no matter what the mode selected on the RMC-1. I then added back the surround backs and it gave me sound from the side surrounds, still no center and no back surrounds until I switched the RMC-1 modes "All Stereo" and then adding back the front/back heights with Dolby Surround gave me back the center. There seems to be a disconnect playing this disc with the RMC-1 audio modes in a 5.1 setup, though the 203 played a role in this by changing the DVD-Audio Mode between "DVD-Audio" and "DVD-Video". I will have to dig deeper into this when I get enough time(probably not until the weekend) and see if I can replicate this odd behavior with a DTS-HD MA 5.1 disc in the 5.1 speaker setup. Right now I've got to get to sleep since I work at 5am tomorrow. |
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Post by geebo on May 26, 2020 21:24:53 GMT -5
LCSeminole, I wonder what would happen if you played that disc with your rear speakers set to none. Would you also lose center and surrounds? When I first put in the disc into the Oppo UDP-203, it was in "DVD-Audio" mode in the "Audio Output Setup" playing the 5.1 pcm track, and yes I got what I would expect from a 5.1 setup with "Surround Backs" disabled, and all channels LCR/SL/SR with sound. I then changed the 203 to DVD-Video mode and got exactly what you are describing with no side surrounds and center. I also could only select "Auto"/"Stereo"/"Direct"/"All Stereo"/"Surround", I then switched the 203 back to DVD-Audio mode and it stayed the same(just the fronts) no matter what the mode selected on the RMC-1. I then added back the surround backs and it gave me sound from the side surrounds, still no center and no back surrounds until I switched the RMC-1 modes "All Stereo" and then adding back the front/back heights with Dolby Surround gave me back the center. There seems to be a disconnect playing this disc with the RMC-1 audio modes in a 5.1 setup, though the 203 played a role in this by changing the DVD-Audio Mode between "DVD-Audio" and "DVD-Video". I will have to dig deeper into this when I get enough time(probably not until the weekend) and see if I can replicate this odd behavior with a DTS-HD MA 5.1 disc in the 5.1 speaker setup. Right now I've got to get to sleep since I work at 5am tomorrow. Every once in awhile the disc plays correctly just as it did for you at first. But the vast majority of time it acts up like you also saw. The 48kHz rip behaves exactly the same when playing through the Oppo or a Zidoo Z10. And a simple upsample to 96kHz and it always plays correctly. Thanks for testing that. I'm going to see if I can find some more 5.1 PCM 48kHz material to try. |
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Post by zanmato7 on May 26, 2020 23:23:43 GMT -5
FW 1.10 corrected my inoperative ARC with a Samsung Q80R TV, all is good now. I also notice better performance with audio/video pass-through in Standby. |
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Post by zanmato7 on May 27, 2020 0:13:34 GMT -5
FW 1.10 corrected my inoperative ARC with a Samsung Q80R TV, all is good now. I also notice better performance with audio/video pass-through in Standby. Hello, I had got the same problem with my Panasonic GZ2000. FW 1.10 corrected my inoperative ARC with worked very well until 2 days ago. Since 2 days, ARC doesn't work and also autopower on through the TV. I didn't change any setting, but I finaly desactivate everything waitting for find a resolution of my problem. Is it possible that my HDMI ARC output is domaged ? But this one send well the image of all my connected devices on my Tv. I'm French, sorry if I made mistakes. |
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