RMC-1/RMC-1L/XMC-2 Owners Thread (Post Firmware v1.10)

[markc]

May 31, 2020 23:47:28 GMT -5 eugene said:

May 31, 2020 22:41:20 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

In order for the processor to switch to Atmos, you must have height speakers, a 5.1 system doesn’t.

So, XMC-2 with 5.1 would not advertise via HDMI that it supports Atmos? And I can't listen to Tidal Atmos albums, can I? That does not sound right as even my android phone renders Atmos into two channels. And I think the TV does as well.

It would be a pain to set up height speaker to improve the sound given constraints of my room.

I was hoping that with Atmos the processor can render the sound better given actual speaker positions once I set up distances (and run Dirac when it is available). For example, I have the 2 surround channels not on the sides of my listening position like it is recommended but where the rear surrounds are supposed to be. It would be nice if the processor could properly mix surround channels between fronts and rears to give a more precise spatial sound.

*****

Thanks to others who responded. I can't seem to figure out how quote multiple messages.

Yes, I'm not sure AudioHTIT is right.
My 7.1 XMC-2 has "DD Atmos" come up as the Surround Mode (meaning the Atmos renderer is enabled presumably, even though I have no height speakers, and hopefully the renderer is doing nothing and I just get the raw bed channels.

Also, my Samsung detects reports "Atmos Enabled Receiver detected" (or something like that) when connected for the first time

(I am one of the lucky people who gets HDMI CEC ARC-In to work from my TV)

[cwt]

May 31, 2020 23:47:28 GMT -5 eugene said:

So, XMC-2 with 5.1 would not advertise via HDMI that it supports Atmos? And I can't listen to Tidal Atmos albums, can I? That does not sound right as even my android phone renders Atmos into two channels. And I think the TV does as well.

Its important to separate the 3 different codecs that can deliver atmos atm Full multichannel atmos @ up to 24/96 from a uhd disc ; dd plus atmos limited @ 48khz and dolby mat which uses lpcm rather than a bitstream and is encoded at the source by lower dsp capacities as Gary says ; bandwidth is important or we wouldnt have pinned 7.1.4 soundtracks

Certain content devices, such as Xbox One X/S and Apple TV 4K, come with a Dolby Atmos MAT encoder, which is designed to encode, decode and incorporate Dolby Atmos metadata into lossless pulse-code modulation (PCM) audio, allowing listeners to experience Dolby Atmos even in PCM audio.

Lpcm is used because of the wide variety of playback equipment like av systems; soundbars;tvs etc and lpcm is a lot more flexible than a bitstream you still have to decode.

[thxultra]

1.10 fixed my issues with my Ropii Pi box over usb Before I would have to disable and enable uac2 for it to work. Haven't had to do that since updating to firmware 1.10. Still having issues with multi channel SACDs though. They still show Multichannel DSD for source but playback in DSD stereo... Other then that been really stable. Haven't had the issue of where my surround mode is set to stereo yet plays through the upmixer either. Great update over all.

[cwt]

Jun 1, 2020 3:12:35 GMT -5 markc said:

Yes, I'm not sure AudioHTIT is right.
My 7.1 XMC-2 has "DD Atmos" come up as the Surround Mode (meaning the Atmos renderer is enabled presumably, even though I have no height speakers, and hopefully the renderer is doing nothing and I just get the raw bed channels.

Has been discussed before and its not set in stone as to where and what size objects can be deployed KeithL gives a good example of why a big collection of non dolby atmos masters like say Disney may still gain from the enlarging of a single object ; complexity of the master matters a lot imo
emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1006423

For example, starting on page 159, they explain how to create the configuration files necessary to instruct the Dolby Atmos Renderer to render an Atmos mix to a fixed-channel mix.
So, for example, you could create a file instructing the renderer how to create a specific down-mix, and which bed channels and objects from the Atmos mix to place in which channels of the down-mix.
And, yes, the resulting 5.1 channel mix would be "pinned", in the sense that it consists of fixed channels rather than Atmos type beds or objects.
The result would then be a separate "fixed format" version of the original Atmos mix - which you could then use for some other purpose or encode in a fixed-channel format like Dolby TrueHD.
So, if you had a Dolby Atmos master, and wanted to create a Dolby TrueHD 7.1 version of it, this is how you would go about doing so.
However, the resulting version would no longer be "an Atmos Mix".

A telling post from nospam describes how a downmix from an atmos track can result in a rerendering for 7.1
emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1006457/thread

[AudioHTIT]

May 31, 2020 23:47:28 GMT -5 eugene said:

May 31, 2020 22:41:20 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

In order for the processor to switch to Atmos, you must have height speakers, a 5.1 system doesn’t.

So, XMC-2 with 5.1 would not advertise via HDMI that it supports Atmos? And I can't listen to Tidal Atmos albums, can I? That does not sound right as even my android phone renders Atmos into two channels. And I think the TV does as well.

It would be a pain to set up height speaker to improve the sound given constraints of my room.

I was hoping that with Atmos the processor can render the sound better given actual speaker positions once I set up distances (and run Dirac when it is available). For example, I have the 2 surround channels not on the sides of my listening position like it is recommended but where the rear surrounds are supposed to be. It would be nice if the processor could properly mix surround channels between fronts and rears to give a more precise spatial sound.

*****

Thanks to others who responded. I can't seem to figure out how quote multiple messages.

I’m answering from my experience not theory; first Tidal Atmos and Atmos with music in general is new, I don’t have a Tidal account and can’t speak to that (but am very interested in the topic). When I first got my RMC-1 I did not have Height speakers, my first UHD disks were the Harry Potter series, though they were in DTS:X, the RMC-1 reported DTS HDMA and engaged Neural:X (it still sounded better than the Blu-ray with HDMA — presumably 7.1 v 5.1). I don’t remember the first Atmos disk I played, but the same thing happened, though the disk was in Atmos the RMC-1 reported Dolby TrueHD 7.1 and engaged the DSU, it also sounded great, but no Atmos. Since then I’ve added two height speakers and if a title has Atmos, the RMC reports and plays it — the same with DTS:X. I have not gone back to turn off my height speakers with Atmos disks to see what’s reported with the newer firmwares, but will give that a try when I get time.

As for your 5.1 layout, I think it’s common for people to have their surround/side speakers, in the rear position — the Dolby recommendation for the Surround position in 5.1 is 90 to 110 degrees to the listener. I would still expect them to work well as bed channels.

Unfortunately Proboards doesn’t have a multi-quote feature.

[KeithL]

I think there's something that EVERYBODY needs to keep in mind here....

The whole asserted purpose of Dolby Atmos (and DTS-X as well) is to give the ARTIST, or PRODUCER, or OWNER of the content more control over exactly what you hear... and so to enable them to deliver their product to us EXACTLY AS THEY CHOOSE TO. I have never seen a single press release that contradicts that assertion. The object is to give THEM better control over the product they are delivering to us. The object is NOT to give us more control over how we alter it to suit our own preferences.

Now, you can feel free to argue the philosophical fine points of whether the producer or the studio should be the one who gets to decide. (There was a great South Park episode where a group of fans was trying to legally block George Lucas from "updating" one of his own movies... because that would be "ruining a classic".) 

And, yes...

The Dolby Atmos renderer takes all of your raw track data and creates a set of cores and metadata.

You can then play that Dolby Atmos data on a full DOlby Atmos system which uses all of that information...

Or you can play a it on a Dolby TrueHD system, and it will be optimally down-mixed, in real time, to Dolby TrueHD.

(It would be more proper to say that the TrueHD core would be rendered directly - without using the Atmos metadata.)

But you can also instruct the Dolby Atmos renderer to create a separate TrueHD data stream - without the Atmos metadata.

And that data stream is just like any other TrueHD data stream..... and contains no Atmos metadata.

(And, even if you were to later play it on the Dolby Surround Upmixer, it would only ever be "an upmixed TrueHD track".)

And, yes, Dolby Atmos offers several other options for limiting the way Atmos content is rendered...

Jun 1, 2020 9:04:32 GMT -5 cwt said:

Jun 1, 2020 3:12:35 GMT -5 markc said:

Yes, I'm not sure AudioHTIT is right.
My 7.1 XMC-2 has "DD Atmos" come up as the Surround Mode (meaning the Atmos renderer is enabled presumably, even though I have no height speakers, and hopefully the renderer is doing nothing and I just get the raw bed channels.

Has been discussed before and its not set in stone as to where and what size objects can be deployed KeithL gives a good example of why a big collection of non dolby atmos masters like say Disney may still gain from the enlarging of a single object ; complexity of the master matters a lot imo
emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1006423

For example, starting on page 159, they explain how to create the configuration files necessary to instruct the Dolby Atmos Renderer to render an Atmos mix to a fixed-channel mix.
So, for example, you could create a file instructing the renderer how to create a specific down-mix, and which bed channels and objects from the Atmos mix to place in which channels of the down-mix.
And, yes, the resulting 5.1 channel mix would be "pinned", in the sense that it consists of fixed channels rather than Atmos type beds or objects.
The result would then be a separate "fixed format" version of the original Atmos mix - which you could then use for some other purpose or encode in a fixed-channel format like Dolby TrueHD.
So, if you had a Dolby Atmos master, and wanted to create a Dolby TrueHD 7.1 version of it, this is how you would go about doing so.
However, the resulting version would no longer be "an Atmos Mix".

A telling post from nospam describes how a downmix from an atmos track can result in a rerendering for 7.1
emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1006457/thread

[richb]

Wouldn’t have been nice if the music and audio industry had concentrated on multi-channel music over MQA. This is an actual reason to rebuy titles.

- Rich

[thxultra]

Jun 1, 2020 12:05:46 GMT -5 richb said:

Wouldn’t have been nice if the music and audio industry had concentrated on multi-channel music over MQA. This is an actual reason to rebuy titles.

- Rich

Can't agree more. No reason for MQA with 24bit 192khz flac. Can do some really great things with multichannel music. So many albums that would sound awesome in ATMOS.

[ttocs]

@keithl, I gave you a like as soon as I read the South Park reference.

[KeithL]

That's why you would be much better off, in that situation, using one Speaker Preset for Dolby and the other one for DTS.

If you have two Dirac filter sets that use different speakers, IN THE SAME PRESET...

You would have to change the speaker settings in that Preset each time you switch between those Dirac filters...

(Because the speaker settings in that Preset must match the Dirac filter set you select in that Preset.)

BUT, if you configure one Preset to use one set of speakers, and the other Preset to use the other set...

Then, in each preset, choose a set of Dirac filters...

(Which agree with the speakers you have configured for use in that Preset...)

You can then switch back and forth between the Presets, and the speaker configurations, without changing anything else...

May 28, 2020 15:56:17 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

May 28, 2020 13:14:18 GMT -5 steelman1991 said:

Which is equally strange because - Tops are used in Dolby and Heights in DTS, so it would seem logical that the opposite should be the experience lol.

EDIT - how are you guys enabling speakers you don't have, surely you shouldn't be able to do that if they aren't connected?

This is another reason having those extra Dirac slots will be nice. Within say your Home Theatre Speaker preset, you can have separate configs for Dolby (w/Tops) and DTS (w/Heights). Though maybe they won’t let you change that within a single preset?

[PaulBe]

Jun 1, 2020 11:23:19 GMT -5 KeithL said:

I think there's something that EVERYBODY needs to keep in mind here....

The whole asserted purpose of Dolby Atmos (and DTS-X as well) is to give the ARTIST, or PRODUCER, or OWNER of the content more control over exactly what you hear... and so to enable them to deliver their product to us EXACTLY AS THEY CHOOSE TO. I have never seen a single press release that contradicts that assertion. The object is to give THEM better control over the product they are delivering to us. The object is NOT to give us more control over how we alter it to suit our own preferences.

Now, you can feel free to argue the philosophical fine points of whether the producer or the studio should be the one who gets to decide. (There was a great South Park episode where a group of fans was trying to legally block George Lucas from "updating" one of his own movies... because that would be "ruining a classic".) 

And, yes...

The Dolby Atmos renderer takes all of your raw track data and creates a set of cores and metadata.

You can then play that Dolby Atmos data on a full DOlby Atmos system which uses all of that information...

Or you can play a it on a Dolby TrueHD system, and it will be optimally down-mixed, in real time, to Dolby TrueHD.

(It would be more proper to say that the TrueHD core would be rendered directly - without using the Atmos metadata.)

But you can also instruct the Dolby Atmos renderer to create a separate TrueHD data stream - without the Atmos metadata.

And that data stream is just like any other TrueHD data stream..... and contains no Atmos metadata.

(And, even if you were to later play it on the Dolby Surround Upmixer, it would only ever be "an upmixed TrueHD track".)

And, yes, Dolby Atmos offers several other options for limiting the way Atmos content is rendered...

Jun 1, 2020 9:04:32 GMT -5 cwt said:

Has been discussed before and its not set in stone as to where and what size objects can be deployed KeithL gives a good example of why a big collection of non dolby atmos masters like say Disney may still gain from the enlarging of a single object ; complexity of the master matters a lot imo
emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1006423
A telling post from nospam describes how a downmix from an atmos track can result in a rerendering for 7.1
emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1006457/thread

The object is to give THEM better control over the product they are delivering to us. The object is NOT to give us more control over how we alter it to suit our own preferences.

That's the bottom line.

"...something that EVERYBODY needs to keep in mind here...." Thanks Keith.

[hsamwel]

Jun 1, 2020 12:20:15 GMT -5 KeithL said:

That's why you would be much better off, in that situation, using one Speaker Preset for Dolby and the other one for DTS.

If you have two Dirac filter sets that use different speakers, IN THE SAME PRESET...

You would have to change the speaker settings in that Preset each time you switch between those Dirac filters...

(Because the speaker settings in that Preset must match the Dirac filter set you select in that Preset.)

BUT, if you configure one Preset to use one set of speakers, and the other Preset to use the other set...

Then, in each preset, choose a set of Dirac filters...

(Which agree with the speakers you have configured for use in that Preset...)

You can then switch back and forth between the Presets, and the speaker configurations, without changing anything else...

May 28, 2020 15:56:17 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

This is another reason having those extra Dirac slots will be nice. Within say your Home Theatre Speaker preset, you can have separate configs for Dolby (w/Tops) and DTS (w/Heights). Though maybe they won’t let you change that within a single preset?

First.. Could we please have a third preset?

Second.. Could you please comment on the Neural:X issue. Is this being worked on? Are you even aware?

Edit: Btw wouldn’t it be better if Atmos vs DTS:X heights/tops where ”fixed” in the processor instead of
using a preset just for separating these?

[dlxp]

Sorry if this has been answered before, but I've searched and haven't found anything definitive. Have Emotiva confirmed whether or not Dirac Live Bass Control will be available for the RMC-1 family, as a paid add on?

[geebo]

Jun 1, 2020 17:44:20 GMT -5 dlxp said:

Sorry if this has been answered before, but I've searched and haven't found anything definitive. Have Emotiva confirmed whether or not Dirac Live Bass Control will be available for the RMC-1 family, as a paid add on?

emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1031942

[dlxp]

Jun 1, 2020 17:55:28 GMT -5 geebo said:

Jun 1, 2020 17:44:20 GMT -5 dlxp said:

Sorry if this has been answered before, but I've searched and haven't found anything definitive. Have Emotiva confirmed whether or not Dirac Live Bass Control will be available for the RMC-1 family, as a paid add on?

emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1031942

Brilliant, thank you! I'd missed that.

[eugene]

Jun 1, 2020 2:54:24 GMT -5 markc said:

May 31, 2020 21:55:42 GMT -5 eugene said:

I can't get XMC-2 to play Atmos at all. I just received the unit this week and did a basic set up with my 5.1 system. Didn't even set distances and filters yet.

Tried playing an Atmos BD disk and the status on XMC-2 showed TrueHD 7.1.
None of Atmos streaming movies such as Star Wars on Disney+ showed Atmos in XMC-2's status.
Tried the new Tidal Atmos playlist from Amazon stick 4K and it played stereo after warning me that my device does not support Atmos.

I did kill the power to everything for some time to make HDMI to rehandshake; in fact, a couple of times.

Does anyone have such problems?

Firstly, Eugene, did you update the firmware to 1.10, just so we are all on the same page?
(It probably came with version 1.8)

Secondly, this query may not be so strange, and my experience is not the same. Atmos flags up as the Surround Mode on my XMC-2 regularly, even though I don't have any Atmos speakers enabled in the menu.

I have just a 7.1 setup with no height/top speakers.
I have my default surround mode set to "Auto"

When I play an ATMOS Blu-ray, the XMC-2 display confirms "DD ATMOS" as both the source AND, more curiously, the Surround Mode.
I would have thought the surround mode might just just say "Surround" as no upmixing is needed in my system.

More odd is that I swear some of the discs just said TrueHD 7.1 on the back cover, but the XMC-2 display flagged up as Atmos. Actually, in my extensive disc testing previously, I am not even sure if I found a disc that simply had TrueHD 7.1 flag up on the display. I'll check this with the Dolby trailers. I was focussing on DTS malfunctions at the time so don't remember which discs or if any at all flagged up TrueHD 7.1 or Atmos on the display.

Obviously I can't benefit from Atmos source encodes, or the Atmos mixer and I simply want to play the 7.1 TrueHD bed channels

The sound with all Dolby sources is, however, fantastic, whatever is flagged on the front display.

Indeed, to avoid using DTS Neural:X, I externally convert all my 5,1 DTS and send PCM to the XMC-2 so that I can use the Dolby Surround Upmixer for 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing.

Yes, I have updated firmware to version 1.10. Thanks for confirming that you have seen "DD ATMOS" status on Atmos content. I haven't.
I am curious what XMC-2/RMC-1 owners with no height speakers see on their status display when playing Atmos content from other sources.

I wonder if it is a problem with what XMC-2 advertises during HDMI handshake. If it does not advertise that it supports Atmos if there are no height speakers. That would be a way to explain why Tidal app on Amazon Fire Stick 4K only wants to stream stereo and tells me that my device does not support Atmos; either that or a buggy Tidal app.

[bluescale]

Jun 1, 2020 19:13:31 GMT -5 eugene said:

Yes, I have updated firmware to version 1.10. Thanks for confirming that you have seen "DD ATMOS" status on Atmos content. I haven't.
I am curious what XMC-2/RMC-1 owners with no height speakers see on their status display when playing Atmos content from other sources.

I wonder if it is a problem with what XMC-2 advertises during HDMI handshake. If it does not advertise that it supports Atmos if there are no height speakers. That would be a way to explain why Tidal app on Amazon Fire Stick 4K only wants to stream stereo and tells me that my device does not support Atmos; either that or a buggy Tidal app.

As a test, can you try enabling the top speakers in the XMC-2 to see what it shows you? You don't have to hook anything up, just enable it to see if your status properly shows Atmos. I haven't used my system at all today, but I'm almost certain mine showed Atmos when playing content with Atmos metadata even though I didn't have any top speakers configured.

[bblv]

Jun 1, 2020 15:23:34 GMT -5 hsamwel said:

Btw wouldn’t it be better if Atmos vs DTS:X heights/tops where ”fixed” in the processor instead of
using a preset just for separating these?

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

[KeithL]

Just FYI.......

You're worrying about a meaningless distinction....

If you have a 5.1 or 7.1 system then an Atmos encoded disc WILL SIMPLY PLAY IN TRUEHD.

This is what they mean when they say: "All Dolby Atmos discs are backwards compatible with TrueHD".

No audio content will be missing... it will simply be part of what is being played through the channels you have.

Even if it is present, and every device in the signal chain supports it, the Atmos metadata itself WILL NOT BE USED in a 5.1 or 7.1 channel system.

The Atmos metadata describes how to process the TrueHD core stream to take advantage of additional speakers.

If you only have 5.1 or 7.1 speakers, they will be playing the TrueHD core stream, and the Atmos metadata will be ignored.

And, even if an "Atmos version of a movie disc" were to have a different sound mix than the "TrueHD" version of the same movie...

When you play that disc on a 5.1 or 7.1 channel system you will be hearing the TrueHD core of that Atmos disc.

And, at that point, whether Atmos metadata is there or not is simply "an informational display" and not much more.

And, if we are mis-reporting it under certain specific circumstances, or telling the source not to bother sending it, it's not a big deal.

[EDIT: It turns out we are NOW reporting it correctly.... see future post     emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1034158/56879 ]

The actual decoder takes the data stream, decodes it as appropriate, and plays it for you as audio output.

Then, in addition to that, it passes that information to the processor to put up on the display for you.

(But, if we are getting any of it wrong, under specific circumstances, we'll get it sorted out, so don't worry about it.)

 

Jun 1, 2020 19:13:31 GMT -5 eugene said:

Jun 1, 2020 2:54:24 GMT -5 markc said:

Firstly, Eugene, did you update the firmware to 1.10, just so we are all on the same page?
(It probably came with version 1.8)

Secondly, this query may not be so strange, and my experience is not the same. Atmos flags up as the Surround Mode on my XMC-2 regularly, even though I don't have any Atmos speakers enabled in the menu.

I have just a 7.1 setup with no height/top speakers.
I have my default surround mode set to "Auto"

When I play an ATMOS Blu-ray, the XMC-2 display confirms "DD ATMOS" as both the source AND, more curiously, the Surround Mode.
I would have thought the surround mode might just just say "Surround" as no upmixing is needed in my system.

More odd is that I swear some of the discs just said TrueHD 7.1 on the back cover, but the XMC-2 display flagged up as Atmos. Actually, in my extensive disc testing previously, I am not even sure if I found a disc that simply had TrueHD 7.1 flag up on the display. I'll check this with the Dolby trailers. I was focussing on DTS malfunctions at the time so don't remember which discs or if any at all flagged up TrueHD 7.1 or Atmos on the display.

Obviously I can't benefit from Atmos source encodes, or the Atmos mixer and I simply want to play the 7.1 TrueHD bed channels

The sound with all Dolby sources is, however, fantastic, whatever is flagged on the front display.

Indeed, to avoid using DTS Neural:X, I externally convert all my 5,1 DTS and send PCM to the XMC-2 so that I can use the Dolby Surround Upmixer for 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing.

Yes, I have updated firmware to version 1.10. Thanks for confirming that you have seen "DD ATMOS" status on Atmos content. I haven't.
I am curious what XMC-2/RMC-1 owners with no height speakers see on their status display when playing Atmos content from other sources.

I wonder if it is a problem with what XMC-2 advertises during HDMI handshake. If it does not advertise that it supports Atmos if there are no height speakers. That would be a way to explain why Tidal app on Amazon Fire Stick 4K only wants to stream stereo and tells me that my device does not support Atmos; either that or a buggy Tidal app.

[KeithL]

Wouldn't it really have been better if Dolby and DTS could have agreed on one speaker arrangement that would work well for both?  

(It's almost like they each wanted to force you to pick one over the other. )

Jun 1, 2020 20:54:38 GMT -5 bblv said:

Jun 1, 2020 15:23:34 GMT -5 hsamwel said:

Btw wouldn’t it be better if Atmos vs DTS:X heights/tops where ”fixed” in the processor instead of
using a preset just for separating these?

Couldn’t have said it better myself.