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Post by foggy1956 on Mar 28, 2021 13:23:31 GMT -5
It doesn't matter, "reference level" is just the particular level that movies are mixed in studio and what you referred to at 75db. Using a sound level meter to match the levels of each channel is what is important here, this way you can incorporate your preferences when it comes to groups of speakers. For example, I tend to run my center channel hot by 1-2db as well as my back/side surrounds. IMO, reference is the levels that you make/define them to be, and not the level(75db that the 0db master volume corresponds to) that some manufacturers pre-define. Very helpful! On a side note anyone have a suggestion for a solid sound meter to purchase. My one that I purchased from Radio Shack waaaay back in the day just hit the bed and stopped working! Would like to get a new one asap as I did not get to finish my calibration with it. If available at amazon even better! Download an app to your phone to use as a meter |
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Post by foggy1956 on Mar 28, 2021 13:28:31 GMT -5
It doesn't matter, "reference level" is just the particular level that movies are mixed in studio and what you referred to at 75db. Using a sound level meter to match the levels of each channel is what is important here, this way you can incorporate your preferences when it comes to groups of speakers. For example, I tend to run my center channel hot by 1-2db as well as my back/side surrounds. IMO, reference is the levels that you make/define them to be, and not the level(75db that the 0db master volume corresponds to) that some manufacturers pre-define. Yeah, I understand your point in that the most important is to level match each speaker to each other. However, I want my 0.0 to be set to 75db as that is what I am used to and what I use as my reference for “reference.” Easier to compare apples to apples as I would know if I’m listening at the same or higher spl levels as before on my previous equipment. I don’t want 0.0 to be say 55db (just an example). So I’m just wondering which test tone to use to set the levels so that that is the actual level each speaker is set to. So if “low” is set to 75, will 0.0 be 75? Or, if “medium” is set to 75, would that be the level when the processor is at 0.0. One of these levels would need to be the baseline for 0.0db, right? My other prepro/avrs had 1 tone that u set to 75db so it was more clear. I know I could just play a pink noise file with my processor set to 0.0 (or -10 to see if it’s 65db) just to see what the spl is, but I figured it would ask since I figured someone may have noted this already. Do you realize that if you set 0.0 at 75 db you only have a theoretical 10db of volume increase to play with? |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Mar 28, 2021 13:50:34 GMT -5
Yeah, I understand your point in that the most important is to level match each speaker to each other. However, I want my 0.0 to be set to 75db as that is what I am used to and what I use as my reference for “reference.” Easier to compare apples to apples as I would know if I’m listening at the same or higher spl levels as before on my previous equipment. I don’t want 0.0 to be say 55db (just an example). So I’m just wondering which test tone to use to set the levels so that that is the actual level each speaker is set to. So if “low” is set to 75, will 0.0 be 75? Or, if “medium” is set to 75, would that be the level when the processor is at 0.0. One of these levels would need to be the baseline for 0.0db, right? My other prepro/avrs had 1 tone that u set to 75db so it was more clear. I know I could just play a pink noise file with my processor set to 0.0 (or -10 to see if it’s 65db) just to see what the spl is, but I figured it would ask since I figured someone may have noted this already. Do you realize that if you set 0.0 at 75 db you only have a theoretical 10db of volume increase to play with? Actually, the volume tops out at 11(I know semantics  , so only 11db to play with. Which is why I don't bother with the 75db reference volume @ 0.0 on the volume level. |
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Post by zdoggz on Mar 28, 2021 14:01:27 GMT -5
I didn’t realize the rmc only went to +11 but that isn’t uncommon as my last avr was something like that. I/Most would rarely want to go up to reference let alone +11 db higher and is likely why that is not uncommon nor really much of an issue. (I’d like to preserve my hearing as that 10db is perceived over twice as loud. *ouch*  I would just like to know which, if any, of the “low/medium/high” best maps to the 0.0 being at the standard reference level (75db w 105db peaks) so that I know what 0.0 or -10db means. (Ie -10db down from what if we don’t know what that reference is?) The “reference” scale for home theater for many years has been 75 db (peaks of 105db) so that is what I’ve used as 0.0 for the last 12+ yrs (no benefit to have a reference scale if everyone uses something different). if 0.0 doesn’t reference the standard “reference level” noted then it doesn’t serve much benefit to use that scale and we might as well use the old scale of 0-50 or 1-100 or whatever. |
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Post by foggy1956 on Mar 28, 2021 14:02:11 GMT -5
Do you realize that if you set 0.0 at 75 db you only have a theoretical 10db of volume increase to play with? Actually, the volume tops out at 11(I know semantics , so only 11db to play with. Which is why I don't bother with the 75db reference volume @ 0.0 on the volume level. Thanks for emphasizing my point with the extra db🙂 |
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Post by cwt on Mar 29, 2021 0:34:01 GMT -5
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Post by zdoggz on Mar 29, 2021 6:17:51 GMT -5
As I mentioned, the standard/defined “reference level” I/many have been using as reference to best mimic dts/dd movie theater levels is 75db w 30db headroom for each channel channel (ie 105 peaks, 85 w 115 peaks for lfe channel) which was also mentioned in the avsforum post for dd and dts. When ppl say, “I can play at reference levels with no distortion,” everyone knows/assumes it’s those defined/standard reference levels. Below is another similar article for thx www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013314thx-reference-level/But rather than focus on any particular spl level, let me word it this way to help focus on the root of the my question. For any given desired “reference” spl (75dB baseline/average w 105 peaks for me/most), how would one go about setting the trim levels so that that is the spl level when the rmc/xmc/whatever is set to 0.0. I dont want to derail this thread too much more, but I wanted to ask since i figured it would be a fairly straightforward question. Maybe I’ll reach out to emotiva too and see what they come back with. Thanks for the input nonetheless. |
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Post by jbm2021 on Mar 29, 2021 15:52:29 GMT -5
Hello, I am new to this forum. Now that I have refined my stereo setup, planning on further refinements for my HT. Mine is a 7.1.6 setup. www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/7.1.6-overhead-speaker-setup-guide/If I were to upgrade/refine, I am debating between the RMC-1 vs RMC-1L. Is there anything in the hardware or software/firmware that will make one of the above a better choice for 7.1.6? It is purely for HT though the same system will be used for 2-ch stereo music with a different DAC and front end How stable is the latest version of the Firmware when it comes to reliability of HDMI switching, reliability of audio and video? When front width channels are used to bi-amp front left and front right, is the issue mentioned by markc still something that is relevant? emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/56879/rmc-owners-thread-post-firmware?q=biampSorry, if these topics were covered earlier. Finally when front width channels are bi-amped will DIRAC work for both the FL and FR and the bi-amped channels? I appreciate any pointers and inputs. Thanks! |
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Post by okjazz on Mar 29, 2021 19:48:23 GMT -5
As I mentioned, the standard/defined “reference level” I/many have been using as reference to best mimic dts/dd movie theater levels is 75db w 30db headroom for each channel channel (ie 105 peaks, 85 w 115 peaks for lfe channel) which was also mentioned in the avsforum post for dd and dts. When ppl say, “I can play at reference levels with no distortion,” everyone knows/assumes it’s those defined/standard reference levels. Below is another similar article for thx www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013314thx-reference-level/But rather than focus on any particular spl level, let me word it this way to help focus on the root of the my question. For any given desired “reference” spl (75dB baseline/average w 105 peaks for me/most), how would one go about setting the trim levels so that that is the spl level when the rmc/xmc/whatever is set to 0.0. I dont want to derail this thread too much more, but I wanted to ask since i figured it would be a fairly straightforward question. Maybe I’ll reach out to emotiva too and see what they come back with. Thanks for the input nonetheless. I am a little curious. What sound level reading are you getting when you set the speaker level to 0.0 with the test tone set low? Medium? High? Don't think you that the final level output would vary system to system based on the power rating/gain of your specific power amp? If a processor is connected to a 50 watt amp, don't you think that its test tone would sound softer than if it was connected to a 100 watt amp? Therefore the test tone level might become more irrelevant in the equation you are seeking answers for. |
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Post by atomic4877 on Mar 29, 2021 20:06:24 GMT -5
Hello, I am new to this forum. Now that I have refined my stereo setup, planning on further refinements for my HT. Mine is a 7.1.6 setup. www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/7.1.6-overhead-speaker-setup-guide/If I were to upgrade/refine, I am debating between the RMC-1 vs RMC-1L. Is there anything in the hardware or software/firmware that will make one of the above a better choice for 7.1.6? It is purely for HT though the same system will be used for 2-ch stereo music with a different DAC and front end How stable is the latest version of the Firmware when it comes to reliability of HDMI switching, reliability of audio and video? When front width channels are used to bi-amp front left and front right, is the issue mentioned by markc still something that is relevant? emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/56879/rmc-owners-thread-post-firmware?q=biampSorry, if these topics were covered earlier. Finally when front width channels are bi-amped will DIRAC work for both the FL and FR and the bi-amped channels? I appreciate any pointers and inputs. Thanks! For the differences between the RMC-1 and 1L, there is no hardware/software differences. The only difference is the expansion slots on the RMC-1 and the processor is a bit larger. The hardware and firmware has been very stable for me. The menu navigation delay is very good and input switching is much improved. |
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Post by zdoggz on Mar 29, 2021 20:21:50 GMT -5
As I mentioned, the standard/defined “reference level” I/many have been using as reference to best mimic dts/dd movie theater levels is 75db w 30db headroom for each channel channel (ie 105 peaks, 85 w 115 peaks for lfe channel) which was also mentioned in the avsforum post for dd and dts. When ppl say, “I can play at reference levels with no distortion,” everyone knows/assumes it’s those defined/standard reference levels. Below is another similar article for thx www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013314thx-reference-level/But rather than focus on any particular spl level, let me word it this way to help focus on the root of the my question. For any given desired “reference” spl (75dB baseline/average w 105 peaks for me/most), how would one go about setting the trim levels so that that is the spl level when the rmc/xmc/whatever is set to 0.0. I dont want to derail this thread too much more, but I wanted to ask since i figured it would be a fairly straightforward question. Maybe I’ll reach out to emotiva too and see what they come back with. Thanks for the input nonetheless. I am a little curious. What sound level reading are you getting when you set the speaker level to 0.0 with the test tone set low? Medium? High? Don't think you that the final level output would vary system to system based on the power rating/gain of your specific power amp? If a processor is connected to a 50 watt amp, don't you think that its test tone would sound softer than if it was connected to a 100 watt amp? Therefore the test tone level might become more irrelevant in the equation you are seeking answers for. The test tone level doesn’t change with the volume. Ie it’s the same level regardless what level u set the rmc to. Now the trim levels will vary depending on the gain of the amp and the sensitivity of the speaker (but not the power rating as that is just how much it can output); however, what I’m seeking is how the low/medium/high test tones relate to the 0.0 setting on the rmc, which isnt impacted/affected by the amp gain or speaker sensitivity. For example, maybe the high test tone level is set to mimic 0.0 and medium mimics -10 and low mimics -20 (or something like that). Anytime I would have an avr with audyssey etc, u set levels to 75 before starting the process in order for your volume scale is relative to the standard/defined reference scale mentioned before, so this is, or at least was, pretty standard stuff. I have a question into emotiva to see what they say. Again, the point of the reference scale is lost if the scale it follows is unknown or inconsistent. As I mentioned before, we might as well just go back to an absolute volume scale of 0-100 or similar rather than a relative scale of -96 to +11 if there were no known/defined reference to be “relative” to. I don’t think that is the case. I hope to hear something soon. Thanks for your input. |
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Post by jbm2021 on Mar 29, 2021 21:12:07 GMT -5
Hello, I am new to this forum. Now that I have refined my stereo setup, planning on further refinements for my HT. Mine is a 7.1.6 setup. www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/7.1.6-overhead-speaker-setup-guide/If I were to upgrade/refine, I am debating between the RMC-1 vs RMC-1L. Is there anything in the hardware or software/firmware that will make one of the above a better choice for 7.1.6? It is purely for HT though the same system will be used for 2-ch stereo music with a different DAC and front end How stable is the latest version of the Firmware when it comes to reliability of HDMI switching, reliability of audio and video? When front width channels are used to bi-amp front left and front right, is the issue mentioned by markc still something that is relevant? emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/56879/rmc-owners-thread-post-firmware?q=biampSorry, if these topics were covered earlier. Finally when front width channels are bi-amped will DIRAC work for both the FL and FR and the bi-amped channels? I appreciate any pointers and inputs. Thanks! For the differences between the RMC-1 and 1L, there is no hardware/software differences. The only difference is the expansion slots on the RMC-1 and the processor is a bit larger. The hardware and firmware has been very stable for me. The menu navigation delay is very good and input switching is much improved. Thanks for confirming that there is no real hw/sw differences and the stability. I appreciate it. |
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Post by jbm2021 on Mar 29, 2021 21:22:17 GMT -5
Quick question - does it matter what level test tone u use when setting the levels? I use the “low” test tone and set it to 75db. The manual just says to use whatever is appropriate for your speakers, so I assumed it doesn’t matter but just wanted to check in case there was more to it than that. Obviously want it to be at ref level (75dB) when set to 0.0, so wasn’t sure if setting “low” to 75db would actually be running “hot” since the “Med” test tone reads roughly 85db with the trims set this way. I don't have the processor yet, but if it provides various levels, that is a good thing. I am guessing, the primary motivator here is to account for your relative noise floor in your room and also the "input sensitivity" of your amplifiers. Ideally speaking, after you do your calibration manually or using Dirac, choose one of your well known tracks that is intense in loudness. Set your own reference to see where dialogue is comfortable (assuming movies), then with an SPL meter set to C weight and "fast" measure the peak SPL. For your room and your equipment (subs) you kind of know what your limits are and try not to push beyond it. It is also very much movie/track dependent. So just because you use a certain tone, it may not mean that listening at 75dB is save or reference volume -10 is safe. Always best to measure, find the limits and stay within that. Hope this helps. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Mar 29, 2021 21:37:52 GMT -5
For example, maybe the high test tone level is set to mimic 0.0 and medium mimics -10 and low mimics -20 (or something like that). Anytime I would have an avr with audyssey etc, u set levels to 75 before starting the process in order for your volume scale is relative to the standard/defined reference scale mentioned before, so this is pretty standard stuff. I have a question into emotiva to see what they say. Again, the point of the reference scale is lost if the scale it follows is unknown or inconsistent. As I mentioned before, we might as well just go back to an absolute volume scale of 0-100 or similar rather than a relative scale of -96 to +11 if there were no known/defined reference to be “relative” to. I don’t think that is the case. I hope to hear something soon. Thanks for your input. I can confirm that the difference between the Levels: High/Med/Low are indeed 10dB for each step. If you want your system to be at a particular SPL at a certain volume setting, just adjust the Levels accordingly. They have a +-12dB variation. So you have lots of variation to set that to whatever you want. High/Med/Low is just for your comfort really, but if you want Medium to represent 75dB, and that makes your system reach what you consider Reference to be when the volume knob is at 0.0dB, then go for it. With the XMC-1, if memory serves, Medium was shown as being the "75dB" level, and in my room it measured about 71dB most of the time, and that's pretty much what I find with the XMC-2, same amps/speakers/room/SPLmeters. Of course, when the house voltage changes, so does the volume level, and the range in my house goes from 129V down to 114V. That's why I use a Variac for my tube amps, because the internal voltages go sky high when the line voltage is above 119V. For me, my system, I use Medium just so the speakers are driven enough to get some action, but I level down to the weakest channel. I know some folks use Medium and set all channels to read 75dB, and others who use Low and set their channels to read 65dB. If all music from all sources and all movies from all sources were identical in volume level on all playing devices in my system, then maybe I would put the effort into "calibrating" my system to a certain "Level". But when one movie has way too much bass from one studio, and another has "normal" bass but a weak Center channel, and still another has too much Center Channel volume, this causes a need to change the volume level per movie or music track, so I have it set at Vol-A for one movie, and Vol-B for another, but both are about the same SPL overall. This is why I sample all movies before Movie Night! so I can meter the audio to know how loud it will get and adjust accordingly. |
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Post by jbm2021 on Mar 29, 2021 21:47:19 GMT -5
For example, maybe the high test tone level is set to mimic 0.0 and medium mimics -10 and low mimics -20 (or something like that). Anytime I would have an avr with audyssey etc, u set levels to 75 before starting the process in order for your volume scale is relative to the standard/defined reference scale mentioned before, so this is pretty standard stuff. I have a question into emotiva to see what they say. Again, the point of the reference scale is lost if the scale it follows is unknown or inconsistent. As I mentioned before, we might as well just go back to an absolute volume scale of 0-100 or similar rather than a relative scale of -96 to +11 if there were no known/defined reference to be “relative” to. I don’t think that is the case. I hope to hear something soon. Thanks for your input. I can confirm that the difference between the Levels: High/Med/Low are indeed 10dB for each step. If you want your system to be at a particular SPL at a certain volume setting, just adjust the Levels accordingly. They have a +-12dB variation. So you have lots of variation to set that to whatever you want. High/Med/Low is just for your comfort really, but if you want Medium to represent 75dB, and that makes your system reach what you consider Reference to be when the volume knob is at 0.0dB, then go for it. With the XMC-1, if memory serves, Medium was shown as being the "75dB" level, and in my room it measured about 71dB most of the time, and that's pretty much what I find with the XMC-2, same amps/speakers/room/SPLmeters. Of course, when the house voltage changes, so does the volume level, and the range in my house goes from 129V down to 114V. That's why I use a Variac for my tube amps, because the internal voltages go sky high when the line voltage is above 119V. For me, my system, I use Medium just so the speakers are driven enough to get some action, but I level down to the weakest channel. I know some folks use Medium and set all channels to read 75dB, and others who use Low and set their channels to read 65dB. If all music from all sources and all movies from all sources were identical in volume level on all playing devices in my system, then maybe I would put the effort into "calibrating" my system to a certain "Level". But when one movie has way too much bass from one studio, and another has "normal" bass but a weak Center channel, and still another has too much Center Channel volume, this causes a need to change the volume level per movie or music track, so I have it set at Vol-A for one movie, and Vol-B for another, but both are about the same SPL overall. This is why I sample all movies before Movie Night! so I can meter the audio to know how loud it will get and adjust accordingly. Interesting point about the line voltage. I never worried about it, but maybe worth a check. If there is a bias setting on the amp, is adjusting that good enough depending upon use? BTW, since you are using tubes, I am curious do you have a bi-amped setup? You maybe able to help with my earlier question on bi-amping. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Mar 29, 2021 22:25:31 GMT -5
Interesting point about the line voltage. I never worried about it, but maybe worth a check. If there is a bias setting on the amp, is adjusting that good enough depending upon use? BTW, since you are using tubes, I am curious do you have a bi-amped setup? You maybe able to help with my earlier question on bi-amping. I keep the voltage for the tubes between 114-117V. The difficulty is both an over and under voltage condition internally. Gotta keep the high voltage component happy, but also the negative voltage component happy, and they are inversely related. There's an issue with using Bi-Amp on these processors for those who want to use analog, it won't work unless you really like hearing an echo. The Bi-Amp feature is a Digital-Only item. But Dirac doesn't "see" Bi-Amp, it only sees each Front speaker channel regardless of whether it is setup as Bi-Amp or not, so in this way Dirac is blind to that setting. When using Bi-Amp you will need to adjust gain of each amp some other way because Dirac won't be able to. Am I using Bi-Amp for my speakers? Yes, but No. My speakers are electrostatic panels above 300Hz, and dual self powered woofers below 300Hz. The outboard amp only directly powers the stat panel, not the woofers. But a more appropriate answer would be in relation to my previous speakers, also electrostatic hybrids, but with passive woofers, and I did passively bi-amp those and realized an improvement at higher volume levels, but made no audible difference at lower levels. |
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Post by jbm2021 on Mar 29, 2021 22:53:40 GMT -5
Interesting point about the line voltage. I never worried about it, but maybe worth a check. If there is a bias setting on the amp, is adjusting that good enough depending upon use? BTW, since you are using tubes, I am curious do you have a bi-amped setup? You maybe able to help with my earlier question on bi-amping. I keep the voltage for the tubes between 114-117V. The difficulty is both an over and under voltage condition internally. Gotta keep the high voltage component happy, but also the negative voltage component happy, and they are inversely related. There's an issue with using Bi-Amp on these processors for those who want to use analog, it won't work unless you really like hearing an echo. The Bi-Amp feature is a Digital-Only item. But Dirac doesn't "see" Bi-Amp, it only sees each Front speaker channel regardless of whether it is setup as Bi-Amp or not, so in this way Dirac is blind to that setting. When using Bi-Amp you will need to adjust gain of each amp some other way because Dirac won't be able to. Am I using Bi-Amp for my speakers? Yes, but No. My speakers are electrostatic panels above 300Hz, and dual self powered woofers below 300Hz. The outboard amp only directly powers the stat panel, not the woofers. But a more appropriate answer would be in relation to my previous speakers, also electrostatic hybrids, but with passive woofers, and I did passively bi-amp those and realized an improvement at higher volume levels, but made no audible difference at lower levels. I think if there is an issue, if I go with the processor, my best bet is to split the FL and FL. It is going to need 2 adapters. An XLR to RCA and an RCA splitter. Kind of messy, but I don't see another solution for me. So DIRAC will also work. I am using a Line Magnetic (LM) SET amp for Mid Hi (Von Schweikert VR5 anniv) and a NAD C298 for the woofer module. The NAD has input sensitivity continuously variable and I have a volume control on the LM that allows me to perfectly blend the two. The Xover is 200Hz and the speaker is designed for bi-amping. Integrating an electrostatic to a traditional sub is very hard. If you got it dialed in, kudos! |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Mar 29, 2021 23:15:34 GMT -5
I think if there is an issue, if I go with the processor, my best bet is to split the FL and FL. It is going to need 2 adapters. An XLR to RCA and an RCA splitter. Kind of messy, but I don't see another solution for me. So DIRAC will also work. I am using a Line Magnetic (LM) SET amp for Mid Hi (Von Schweikert VR5 anniv) and a NAD C298 for the woofer module. The NAD has input sensitivity continuously variable and I have a volume control on the LM that allows me to perfectly blend the two. The Xover is 200Hz and the speaker is designed for bi-amping. Integrating an electrostatic to a traditional sub is very hard. If you got it dialed in, kudos! You would be better off using XLR as far as you can go before converting to RCA, splitting hairs, yes, but that's the general idea anyway. I make my cables. My subs are only integrated with the woofers of the main speakers, so it's not as difficult as with stat panels. I've got more posted in Finding Subwoofer. Things have changed a lot over the last year. |
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Post by jbm2021 on Mar 30, 2021 0:35:33 GMT -5
I think if there is an issue, if I go with the processor, my best bet is to split the FL and FL. It is going to need 2 adapters. An XLR to RCA and an RCA splitter. Kind of messy, but I don't see another solution for me. So DIRAC will also work. I am using a Line Magnetic (LM) SET amp for Mid Hi (Von Schweikert VR5 anniv) and a NAD C298 for the woofer module. The NAD has input sensitivity continuously variable and I have a volume control on the LM that allows me to perfectly blend the two. The Xover is 200Hz and the speaker is designed for bi-amping. Integrating an electrostatic to a traditional sub is very hard. If you got it dialed in, kudos! You would be better off using XLR as far as you can go before converting to RCA, splitting hairs, yes, but that's the general idea anyway. I make my cables. My subs are only integrated with the woofers of the main speakers, so it's not as difficult as with stat panels. I've got more posted in Finding Subwoofer. Things have changed a lot over the last year. I agree. For this application, balanced would have been better. However, for my use case, I don't have a choice. Nice subwoofer build. BTW, are you not using Dirac for subs? Also, does it cost more to get the bass control module of Dirac? |
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Post by jbm2021 on Mar 30, 2021 0:44:42 GMT -5
Also wondering, does the RMC-1/L provide a high-pass filter below 20Hz?
I used to use a Rane PE-17 and now have a miniDSP. Will be nice to get rid of it and have a direct path
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, so only 11db to play with. Which is why I don't bother with the 75db reference volume @ 0.0 on the volume level. 
