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Post by steelman1991 on Jun 11, 2020 17:57:09 GMT -5
Not sure how much more conclusive you need that there was a restriction - that's directly from Dolby themselves? It was also widely reported throughout the internet - a quick Google search will bring up plenty evidence. They didn't change their mind willingly - they were legally challenged and had to relax the restriction AFAIR.
Although it seems no other manufacturer implemented this restriction. For example, Denon 8500 does not have it. Also it has the possibility of turning off Dialog Normalization. How come? They have released firmware both during and after the restriction(s) were active. Why are Emotiva the only ones that NEED to follow these ”restrictions”? No idea - but certainly Pioneer implemented it in their SC-LX 89. A little read of Lonnie’s post a little back the thread will give you their response.
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,775
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Post by LCSeminole on Jun 11, 2020 20:42:27 GMT -5
My ATV does this as well with my XMC-2. I do notice the light on the front of the apple tv is off until I hit the menu button so seems like the apple tv is in sleep mode and this wakes it up. I wonder if other processors send something over hdmi when they switch to that input that "wakes" the apple tv. I have the same issue, and I think it has something to do with the Harmony not being able to turn off or turn on the Apple TV. I guess you could add a button press into the start up sequence on the Harmony (say press menu on Apple TV as the last programmed command?) I too have to press the "MENU" button when I'm using my Harmony Elite, what's interesting is when I use my Harmony 650/665 it powers on the AppleTV4K without having to press the "MENU" button. Thus I'm thinking it's a setting somewhere with the Harmony Elite.
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Post by doc1963 on Jun 11, 2020 21:37:35 GMT -5
I have the same issue, and I think it has something to do with the Harmony not being able to turn off or turn on the Apple TV. I guess you could add a button press into the start up sequence on the Harmony (say press menu on Apple TV as the last programmed command?) I too have to press the "MENU" button when I'm using my Harmony Elite, what's interesting is when I use my Harmony 650/665 it powers on the AppleTV4K without having to press the "MENU" button. Thus I'm thinking it's a setting somewhere with the Harmony Elite. I added an additional command to my “Watch AppleTV” activity. After the normal activity startup command set, I added a delay (5 seconds required for the XSP-1 to ramp up before receiving the “HT Bypass” command) and then the “Home” command (for the AppleTV). It works every time...
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Post by dimora on Jun 11, 2020 23:16:06 GMT -5
This is a reminder to all of the new faces here that your 30 day return window doesn't start until Dirac is delivered, per Emotiva. When will DIRAC live be delivered? I saw a video in FaceBook/YouTube with Nick unboxing the kit, but there was no mention of when the kits are shipping, how to order a kit, etc. Should I call Emotiva tomorrow? Details please?
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Post by megash0n on Jun 12, 2020 0:02:01 GMT -5
This is a reminder to all of the new faces here that your 30 day return window doesn't start until Dirac is delivered, per Emotiva. When will DIRAC live be delivered? I saw a video in FaceBook/YouTube with Nick unboxing the kit, but there was no mention of when the kits are shipping, how to order a kit, etc. Should I call Emotiva tomorrow? Details please? That's a good question.
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Post by markc on Jun 12, 2020 0:26:16 GMT -5
Dolby Surround most definitely works to upmix PCM on my XMC-1 I am avoiding the Neural:X issues by converting all audio to PCM within my Blu-ray player and only bitstreaming any Dolby plus just 7.1 DTS from my JRiver HTPC, but not stereo or 5.1 DTS - that goes as PCM I have my default 5.1 Surround mode set to Dolby Surround in each input that I want upmixing to 7.1. Absolutely reliably, I get 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing of all Dolby (Stereo and 5.1) and of all PCM 2.0 through 5.1, without issue I'd prefer to Bitstream DTS to the XMC-2 (That is what a Surround Sound Processor is meant to do - process the normal accepted formats!) and have it upmix DTS to 7.1, but Neural:X can't do it without a 6dB volume decrease and quite possibly some issue over aberrant sound extraction affecting the sound. It definitely worked on my XMC-1 also. But the situation for the XMC-2 is as I described. I wonder if I'm doing something different in JRiver, but the upmixer also does not work for multichannel SACD converted to PCM and sent via HDMI from my OPPO 205. Hmm. I tested again and mine is definitely fine! It cannot be due to JRiver. PCM is PCM (Although different header variants can be applied to it) Can I suggest you do a backup settings / factory reset / restore settings. It takes about 40 seconds and doesn't risk anything or cause any other inconvenience or downside. It solved a problem for me
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Post by markc on Jun 12, 2020 0:29:21 GMT -5
Keith acknowledged this several months ago. I distinctly remember him stating that when Emotiva wrote the code for the RMC-1, there was a definite Dolby (and possibly also DTS?) restriction on cross upmixing and, as part of the licensing agreement with Emotiva, they were not allowed to enable DSU on DTS sources. He was also aware that this licensing requirement had subsequently been relaxed with other manufacturers at least, but did not promise that Emotiva would be able to, or could commit to, rewriting the Emotiva code to allow it. I personally think it would nice to have the option, but I would far, far rather have a properly functioning Neural:X for DTS sources as well as a re-sort of speaker configuration setting so that both DTS:X and Neural:X use the height/top speakers sensibly and, also in speaker configuration settings, Bi-amping using wides is fixed (or removed, as it doesn't work) Marc, I found out by testing that bi=amping through the wides does work, but only through Stereo mode. Reference Stereo does not get the bi-amp copied signal, at all. I have not had time to test it with multi channel sources though. But would guess it works fine on any processed sound mode. Although, upmixing could be a separate issue... I agree 100% on the Neural:X, DTS:X/Atmos speaker setup and bi-amp all need to be fixed ASAP. For me that almost never use upmixing the restriction is not a priority, although I can understand it is for some. Well, yes, Bi-amping "works" using the front-wide channels, in that audio is indeed duplicated into the FW channels, but it screws up other things further down the DSP chain. The rest of the system doesn't seem to understand the bi-amp configuration: - upmixers get activated when they shouldn't be, Reference Mode disables the audio duplication to the FW channels This is what I mean when I say it doesn't work. There are conditions attached to it that you can't entirely factor out.
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Post by markc on Jun 12, 2020 0:40:51 GMT -5
Maybe this is not the right place to ask, but if we do get Dirac bass management, then is there any reason to buy a subwoofer with fancy DSP features? Wouldn't it make more sense to buy a sub that is very basic, and let the XMC/RMC processor do the processing? If you use subwoofers through a sound mode which do not use the PEQ you’ll not get the calibrated sound. For example DSD direct 5.1. However if you use the PEQ on (for example SVS) subs it will be available in any sound mode or even a 2ch stereo setup. There is a big potential downside of using sequential DSP on the sub AND on the Processor. Null node correction. Room bass nulls CANNOT be corrected by DSP parametric filters. The bass cancellation is a feature of the room. Sure, your sub DSP can apply a bit of PEQ to smooth out some of the null, but the danger is in trying to boost it too much as it simply won't boost. The subwoofer overworks to drive the cone too hard, but all to no avail as the increased output from the speaker cone is simply cancelled in the room null. Now, after the sub DSP has done some levelling for you, the Surround Sound Processor DSP/Dirac will STILL see a bass null at that exact same frequency, and the danger is that you may now get the SSP trying to apply a second parametric filter at exactly the same frequencies to try and smooth it out. This won't work, because nulls won't get boosted. However, now you are risking having the sub DSP trying to boost an already boosted area of the frequency spectrum (From the SSP PEQ), and clipping can occur. You should never have two PEQ filters overlapping and trying to boost missing frequencies, particularly the bass ones due to room nodes. Having two PEQ's sequentially in two different devices is probably more risky than seeing it all on one device.
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dlxp
Minor Hero
Posts: 12
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Post by dlxp on Jun 12, 2020 5:25:01 GMT -5
Is there an advantage to using overlapping DSP on peaks though? For example, using a MiniDSP to integrate subs and smooth peaks, then running Dirac. There'd be no danger then of boosting frequencies twice, as the pre-Dirac eq would only be cutting. That would then reduce the number of filters Dirac would need to use for subs.
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Post by cwt on Jun 12, 2020 6:15:42 GMT -5
This is a reminder to all of the new faces here that your 30 day return window doesn't start until Dirac is delivered, per Emotiva. When will DIRAC live be delivered? I saw a video in FaceBook/YouTube with Nick unboxing the kit, but there was no mention of when the kits are shipping, how to order a kit, etc. You seem to have missed this post from Lonnie; emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1035013Logically it wont take long to assemble a simple Raspberry Pi module after Lonnie gets positive feedback [fingers x'ed] from beta testers which equates with him saying its a finished project
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Post by markc on Jun 12, 2020 6:42:29 GMT -5
Is there an advantage to using overlapping DSP on peaks though? For example, using a MiniDSP to integrate subs and smooth peaks, then running Dirac. There'd be no danger then of boosting frequencies twice, as the pre-Dirac eq would only be cutting. That would then reduce the number of filters Dirac would need to use for subs. When you look at the "Before" and "After" results after Dirac has computed the filters, there are, indeed, some boosts implemented by Dirac filters. This was definitely true of Dirac Live for Emotiva XMC-1 and, from screenshots of Dirac Live V2.x and V3.0.0, looks true also
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Post by cwt on Jun 12, 2020 6:46:13 GMT -5
Maybe this is not the right place to ask, but if we do get Dirac bass management, then is there any reason to buy a subwoofer with fancy DSP features? Wouldn't it make more sense to buy a sub that is very basic, and let the XMC/RMC processor do the processing? That would be a good move imo ; most subs like my velo sp1200 use PEQ IIR filters [ as does minidsp bass management boxes] Dirac uses more sophisticated IIR/FIR mixed phase combinations Having dirac available with the multi sub bass control module is very appealing to those with minidsp's controlling their subs to lose a box needless to say..
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Post by megash0n on Jun 12, 2020 7:21:35 GMT -5
It definitely worked on my XMC-1 also. But the situation for the XMC-2 is as I described. I wonder if I'm doing something different in JRiver, but the upmixer also does not work for multichannel SACD converted to PCM and sent via HDMI from my OPPO 205. Hmm. I tested again and mine is definitely fine! It cannot be due to JRiver. PCM is PCM (Although different header variants can be applied to it) Can I suggest you do a backup settings / factory reset / restore settings. It takes about 40 seconds and doesn't risk anything or cause any other inconvenience or downside. It solved a problem for me With JRiver... Wouldn't the audio piece more likely be in Lav Filters? Meaning.. It isn't really a JRiver thing anyways. I'm trying to remember off the top of my head when Lav comes into play with flac and PCM. It actually may not at all.
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Post by megash0n on Jun 12, 2020 7:29:43 GMT -5
When will DIRAC live be delivered? I saw a video in FaceBook/YouTube with Nick unboxing the kit, but there was no mention of when the kits are shipping, how to order a kit, etc. You seem to have missed this post from Lonnie; emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1035013Logically it wont take long to assemble a simple Raspberry Pi module after Lonnie gets positive feedback [fingers x'ed] from beta testers which equates with him saying its a finished project Is this the post that others are drawing all these conclusions from? When I read this, I took it as they were about to package and ship the beta kits. I know many times I see the glass half empty with this stuff, but I'm just so confused on how so many people continue to so optimistic when reading into things. Do you base this on hope and faith or on history. Help me understand how where to find these rose-colored glasses. I really need some. 😉
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Post by marcl on Jun 12, 2020 7:40:42 GMT -5
Is there an advantage to using overlapping DSP on peaks though? For example, using a MiniDSP to integrate subs and smooth peaks, then running Dirac. There'd be no danger then of boosting frequencies twice, as the pre-Dirac eq would only be cutting. That would then reduce the number of filters Dirac would need to use for subs. When you look at the "Before" and "After" results after Dirac has computed the filters, there are, indeed, some boosts implemented by Dirac filters. This was definitely true of Dirac Live for Emotiva XMC-1 and, from screenshots of Dirac Live V2.x and V3.0.0, looks true also Dirac definitely affects cancellations as well as peaks, but apparently not just by boosting the null areas. That would not work, for reasons markc describes in an earlier post. There must be some "secret sauce" in the filter design. That said, it can't fix very deep nulls below 100Hz without introducing distortion which is evident with "After" REW measurements. Remember, the After in Dirac is prediction, not measurement. As suggested here, when I had the XMC-1 I did knock down the peaks of each of my subs somewhat with PEQ in the miniDSP, and then let Dirac fine tune the overall response. It worked really well!
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Post by cwt on Jun 12, 2020 8:03:01 GMT -5
Is this the post that others are drawing all these conclusions from? When I read this, I took it as they were about to package and ship the beta kits. I know many times I see the glass half empty with this stuff, but I'm just so confused on how so many people continue to so optimistic when reading into things. Do you base this on hope and faith or on history. Help me understand how where to find these rose-colored glasses. I really need some. 😉 Its not hard to put the pieces together notwithstanding any things previously mentioned ; obviously for the beta testers to assess independently the algorithms must be pretty solid or they wouldnt have sent these out in beta form [imagine the furore if this isnt so] ..While they are waiting for the tick of approval proper final production models will be manufactured . Which patently wont be long being a simple pcb not a complicated pre pro . Thats my train of thought ; feel free to critique
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Post by megash0n on Jun 12, 2020 8:15:32 GMT -5
Is this the post that others are drawing all these conclusions from? When I read this, I took it as they were about to package and ship the beta kits. I know many times I see the glass half empty with this stuff, but I'm just so confused on how so many people continue to so optimistic when reading into things. Do you base this on hope and faith or on history. Help me understand how where to find these rose-colored glasses. I really need some. 😉 Its not hard to put the pieces together notwithstanding any things previously mentioned ; obviously for the beta testers to assess independently the algorithms must be pretty solid or they wouldnt have sent these out in beta form [imagine the furore if this isnt so] ..While they are waiting for the tick of approval proper final production models will be manufactured . Which patently wont be long being a simple pcb not a complicated pre pro . Thats my train of thought ; feel free to critique
Well, I hope you are right.
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Post by cwt on Jun 12, 2020 8:38:23 GMT -5
Well, I hope you are right. I hope Tennessee are doing the right thing with covid as well needless to say and I understand Emotiva is conscientious in this regard . Fair to cut some slack with these circumstances ; 1st world problems are morphing into all world these days
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Post by megash0n on Jun 12, 2020 9:11:03 GMT -5
Well, I hope you are right. I hope Tennessee are doing the right thing with covid as well needless to say and I understand Emotiva is conscientious in this regard . Fair to cut some slack with these circumstances ; 1st world problems are morphing into all world these days I agree that we should be understanding that life is different at this time. I'll be super simple about my ongoing, consistent complaint. Just set proper expectations. And, when you see you are going to miss the deadlines you speculate on, apologize and provide a new expectation in a timely manner... Not a month after missed deadline. Anyways, we all accept a different level of this.
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Post by krauley on Jun 12, 2020 9:45:33 GMT -5
I hope Tennessee are doing the right thing with covid as well needless to say and I understand Emotiva is conscientious in this regard . Fair to cut some slack with these circumstances ; 1st world problems are morphing into all world these days I agree that we should be understanding that life is different at this time. I'll be super simple about my ongoing, consistent complaint. Just set proper expectations. And, when you see you are going to miss the deadlines you speculate on, apologize and provide a new expectation in a timely manner... Not a month after missed deadline. Anyways, we all accept a different level of this. all your doing is filling these threads with moaning about how bad emotiva is, it doesnt help and having to navigate is getting old. i think most people here want that perfect processor but also want to civil and patient too. jm2c
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