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Post by cwt on Sept 14, 2022 2:22:51 GMT -5
Are you saying that if we use the product as intended, it doesn't actually work as intended? Okay maybe I exaggerated  . More like slightly buggy to buggier. Markc was being facetious ; much more mileage out of agreeing here 100% I have an inkling  |
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Post by pbiancardi on Sept 15, 2022 5:56:30 GMT -5
I guess here is as good a place to ask this as any - My current setup goes XMC-2 - Monoprice 7 Ch Monolith XLR for the 7 base channels and then I have (2) Crown XLS 1500 for my overhead speakers also being fed XLR from the XMC-2. I want to upgrade the Crown's so I bought a used Emotiva BasX A-500 but it only has RCA in no XLR. The seller sent with some XLR to RCA cables but I get horrible hum through the speakers when I hook everything up. I have tried different power outlets and circuits but I don't think that is the cause since the A-500 does not have a ground pin anyway so I assume it must be an issue with the XLR to RCA cables causing some sort of ground loop? Assuming it is the cable would this solve it? www.amazon.com/dp/B07Z738QVF?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details |
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Post by marcl on Sept 15, 2022 6:01:13 GMT -5
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Post by pbiancardi on Sept 15, 2022 6:14:38 GMT -5
Based on the Amazon video of the product I linked that seems like the same thing? |
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Post by marcl on Sept 15, 2022 6:16:51 GMT -5
Based on the Amazon video of the product I linked that seems like the same thing? Yes it seems. Not sure how to tell if one is better than the other but I know others here have used the ART boxes. |
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Post by pbiancardi on Sept 15, 2022 6:19:31 GMT -5
Based on the Amazon video of the product I linked that seems like the same thing? Yes it seems. Not sure how to tell if one is better than the other but I know others here have used the ART boxes. Ok appreciate the advice. I will try the Amazon one first since it is cheaper and if it doesn't work then I have another option. |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Sept 15, 2022 9:37:53 GMT -5
I do want to add a few things here... First, yes, that does sound like a ground loop. And, yes, a little device like that almost certainly will solve the problem. However, just to clarify, all unbalanced connections do in fact have ground connections. On an unbalanced RCA connector the center pin is the signal pin and the outer shield is the ground. (On XLR connections you have two signal connections, in a balanced configuration, and a separate ground reference.) Therefore assuming things are working as planned, you should not experience hum with either. You get a ground loop when "the grounding on the two devices doesn't exactly get along". This can happen for a variety of reasons - and figuring out which one can be a challenge - although having the two amps plugged into different circuits is one common cause. (Simply "adding a ground pin" or "using a three-pronged plug" may or may not help if and when that happens.) (And balanced XLR connections are less likely to have this problem - for several reasons.) Now... as for "little isolator boxes with transformers". First of all, by using a transformer to totally isolate the two pieces of equipment, they ARE almost certain to effectively solve a ground loop problem. The only catch is that even good quality transformers are not perfect, and will add some small amount of distortion, and will slightly alter the frequency response. Also, depending on the quality of the transformers used, transformers may actually pick up hum - for entirely different reasons. However transformers should not add any hiss. (And, since the very best quality transformers, which still aren't perfect, cost several hundred dollars each, "good quality" is still a relative term.) The bottom line is that a transformer box will almost certainly solve the problem - and many of them sound just fine... But it is a bit of a crap shoot - and some poor quality ones actually will sound bad... This means that they should always be a last resort - but they do often work pretty well in the end. Incidentally... The only reliable way to tell how a transformer-based device sounds in your system is to listen to it. Low cost transformer-based devices rarely have meaningful specifications... And their performance will depend heavily on both devices it's connected to anyway... The distortion caused by most small signal transformers is less than the distortion in the best loudspeakers... And, likewise, their frequency response variations should be less than those in most speakers, and room correction will correct both together anyway... (Just keep in mind that, unlike an interconnect, a transformer probably will introduce at least a slight amount of coloration.) [EDIT]
I was curious, so I checked the reviews of the ART box on B&H, and they are somewhat mixed - as I expected.
(So it's worth a try - but only as a last resort.)I guess here is as good a place to ask this as any - My current setup goes XMC-2 - Monoprice 7 Ch Monolith XLR for the 7 base channels and then I have (2) Crown XLS 1500 for my overhead speakers also being fed XLR from the XMC-2. I want to upgrade the Crown's so I bought a used Emotiva BasX A-500 but it only has RCA in no XLR. The seller sent with some XLR to RCA cables but I get horrible hum through the speakers when I hook everything up. I have tried different power outlets and circuits but I don't think that is the cause since the A-500 does not have a ground pin anyway so I assume it must be an issue with the XLR to RCA cables causing some sort of ground loop? Assuming it is the cable would this solve it? www.amazon.com/dp/B07Z738QVF?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details |
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ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Sept 15, 2022 9:40:14 GMT -5
I guess here is as good a place to ask this as any - My current setup goes XMC-2 - Monoprice 7 Ch Monolith XLR for the 7 base channels and then I have (2) Crown XLS 1500 for my overhead speakers also being fed XLR from the XMC-2. I want to upgrade the Crown's so I bought a used Emotiva BasX A-500 but it only has RCA in no XLR. The seller sent with some XLR to RCA cables but I get horrible hum through the speakers when I hook everything up. I have tried different power outlets and circuits but I don't think that is the cause since the A-500 does not have a ground pin anyway so I assume it must be an issue with the XLR to RCA cables causing some sort of ground loop? Assuming it is the cable would this solve it? www.amazon.com/dp/B07Z738QVF?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_detailsThe product you link to will indeed resolve some hum issues because it uses transformer decoupling, which is a best practice solution. But I would suggest finding the real culprit. The most common being the differently or improperly grounded coax from the cable company, which is very simple to diagnose, just disconnect it and see if the hum disappears. Another common hum source is with electrical outlets being various length wire runs between the panel and the components. Before I went with dedicated, isolated ground circuits, when I had a hum, I disconnected all the power cords except what would power the most basic system so sound could be played, then plugged in one component at a time. When I found a component that caused a hum to appear, I simply plugged that component into a different circuit that didn't cause a hum. Hum can be caused in other ways, like, running signal cables near electrical cables, loose electrical connections in the outlet, improper load balance of the circuits used for the system from the panel, and grounding issues in the building. |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Sept 15, 2022 9:56:40 GMT -5
Absolutely... try all the "normal ground loop troubleshooting solutions" first... For example grounding the amp and processor together... Or connecting the ground on each to the outlet ground using separate wires... Incidentally, on both the BasX amps, and our processors, a chassis screw will give you a chassis ground... they are similar but slightly different. And you can get an "audio circuit ground" by wrapping a wire around one of the RCA connectors you aren't using... The outer sleeve of an RCA connector is "audio circuit ground". Just strip a wire, wrap it around the entire connector a few times, and twist it tightly for a good connection... You can also get a really good ground on the processor by wrapping a wire around the outside of the FM antenna connector... And, as TTocs says, the single biggest cause of hum on home theater systems is a poor ground on the cable connection... If the cable company didn't ground their connection well the hum gets in through there and then into the system via the HDMI cable from your cable or Dish box... This will happen especially if the connection from the cable system to the actual ground stake has become loose or disconnected (which happens somewhat frequently). (If the hum goes away when you disconnect that HDMI cable than check the actual ground connection on your cable system... or have the cable company do it.) I guess here is as good a place to ask this as any - My current setup goes XMC-2 - Monoprice 7 Ch Monolith XLR for the 7 base channels and then I have (2) Crown XLS 1500 for my overhead speakers also being fed XLR from the XMC-2. I want to upgrade the Crown's so I bought a used Emotiva BasX A-500 but it only has RCA in no XLR. The seller sent with some XLR to RCA cables but I get horrible hum through the speakers when I hook everything up. I have tried different power outlets and circuits but I don't think that is the cause since the A-500 does not have a ground pin anyway so I assume it must be an issue with the XLR to RCA cables causing some sort of ground loop? Assuming it is the cable would this solve it? www.amazon.com/dp/B07Z738QVF?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_detailsThe product you link to will indeed resolve some hum issues because it uses transformer decoupling, which is a best practice solution. But I would suggest finding the real culprit. The most common being the differently or improperly grounded coax from the cable company, which is very simple to diagnose, just disconnect it and see if the hum disappears. Another common hum source is with electrical outlets being various length wire runs between the panel and the components. Before I went with dedicated, isolated ground circuits, when I had a hum, I disconnected all the power cords except what would power the most basic system so sound could be played, then plugged in one component at a time. When I found a component that caused a hum to appear, I simply plugged that component into a different circuit that didn't cause a hum. Hum can be caused in other ways, like, running signal cables near electrical cables, loose electrical connections in the outlet, improper load balance of the circuits used for the system from the panel, and grounding issues in the building. |
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Post by alexreusch on Sept 15, 2022 14:47:20 GMT -5
I seems to be a running joke, but.... Any news about the firmware update?
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Post by marcl on Sept 15, 2022 15:02:46 GMT -5
I seems to be a running joke, but.... Any news about the firmware update? I posted a couple weeks ago that firmware always drops when I'm away on a trip. I was to be away Sep 3-23 so seemed like a sure thing. But alas ... trip was aborted on the 6th so it may be six more weeks of 2.5 ... like Groundhog's Day! |
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EmoBrent
Emo Staff
Processor and Product Support
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Post by EmoBrent on Sept 15, 2022 15:19:58 GMT -5
Haven't been by in a second, but we don't have a timeline or other news to offer. But I remain optimistic about the firmware, and we are progressing.
If it makes anyone feel better, I do feel your collective pain each and every day. I have nightmares where I am trapped in a world that is made up of some grey boxes and some lighter gray boxes, trying to move a blue box around without any sense of purpose, endlessly moving through the OSD menus. Nightmares about HDMI EDID and CEC conflicts. I just hope all that ends when the firmware drops, but in the meantime, think of me.
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NicS
Sensei
Will the G4 upgrade help quell my RMC1-L frustrations...?
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Post by NicS on Sept 15, 2022 15:43:22 GMT -5
I seems to be a running joke, but.... Any news about the firmware update? Yes. That little birdy I was on about in earlier posts was back. Cute little fella he is.... Anyway, the firmware update was about to be submitted but in a freak accident, the dog ate it. I was looking away for a moment and the dog leaped up on the desk, took the update, and ate it in front of me. Imagine my surprise!!! And sadly, it was the only one. If I hadn't run out of carbon paper there would be another, but my sister used it all on her doctorate thesis, apart from the last few pages. But the dog didn't eat those..... Don't worry, it'll just be a few more weeks, or months or after the coronation, or after the next one which is likely because Charles is so stupid he might kill himself with a pen out of frustration in getting the date wrong. Sound familiar? |
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Post by pbiancardi on Sept 15, 2022 18:59:37 GMT -5
Absolutely... try all the "normal ground loop troubleshooting solutions" first... For example grounding the amp and processor together... Or connecting the ground on each to the outlet ground using separate wires... Incidentally, on both the BasX amps, and our processors, a chassis screw will give you a chassis ground... they are similar but slightly different. And you can get an "audio circuit ground" by wrapping a wire around one of the RCA connectors you aren't using... The outer sleeve of an RCA connector is "audio circuit ground". Just strip a wire, wrap it around the entire connector a few times, and twist it tightly for a good connection... You can also get a really good ground on the processor by wrapping a wire around the outside of the FM antenna connector... And, as TTocs says, the single biggest cause of hum on home theater systems is a poor ground on the cable connection... If the cable company didn't ground their connection well the hum gets in through there and then into the system via the HDMI cable from your cable or Dish box... This will happen especially if the connection from the cable system to the actual ground stake has become loose or disconnected (which happens somewhat frequently). (If the hum goes away when you disconnect that HDMI cable than check the actual ground connection on your cable system... or have the cable company do it.) The product you link to will indeed resolve some hum issues because it uses transformer decoupling, which is a best practice solution. But I would suggest finding the real culprit. The most common being the differently or improperly grounded coax from the cable company, which is very simple to diagnose, just disconnect it and see if the hum disappears. Another common hum source is with electrical outlets being various length wire runs between the panel and the components. Before I went with dedicated, isolated ground circuits, when I had a hum, I disconnected all the power cords except what would power the most basic system so sound could be played, then plugged in one component at a time. When I found a component that caused a hum to appear, I simply plugged that component into a different circuit that didn't cause a hum. Hum can be caused in other ways, like, running signal cables near electrical cables, loose electrical connections in the outlet, improper load balance of the circuits used for the system from the panel, and grounding issues in the building. I have a ground screw on my APC H15 power conditioner, is it safe to try and run to the BasX coax input? I did try touching it to the chassis of the BasX but didn't want to go too crazy and short something out. I also tried plugging BasX into multiple different outlets around the house with no change. Are you saying I could try plugging OTHER things somewhere else and that might help? I don't have cable TV but cable modem is on the same circuit. I would love to solve this without extra boxes. The reason I don't have issue with my cheap Crown amps is simply because they have an XLR connection? |
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Post by pbiancardi on Sept 15, 2022 19:07:26 GMT -5
Ok I got brave and if I touch ground post from power conditioner to outside of one of the RCA jacks on the BasX everything is fixed. Is that a proper fix for this? I am only going to use 4/5 of the channels so I could use the 5th as ground if that is the right way to fix?
Edit - spoke too soon once I hooked all channels up this didn't help.
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aswiss
Sensei
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Member is Online
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Post by aswiss on Sept 15, 2022 19:58:23 GMT -5
Haven't been by in a second, but we don't have a timeline or other news to offer. But I remain optimistic about the firmware, and we are progressing. If it makes anyone feel better, I do feel your collective pain each and every day. I have nightmares where I am trapped in a world that is made up of some grey boxes and some lighter gray boxes, trying to move a blue box around without any sense of purpose, endlessly moving through the OSD menus. Nightmares about HDMI EDID and CEC conflicts. I just hope all that ends when the firmware drops, but in the meantime, think of me. I wish you good look with all those boxes. Hopefully, the nightmares will not take place in one of them - no need to call the Ghostbusters, once the FW is installed 
While waiting so long, I received news from the manufacturer of my new speakers, that they will be ready for shipping next week (ordered back in march 2022).
And once they take the plane to fly over the Atlantic ocean and find a new home here in Switzerland - I will be very busy with testing and not so often care, if the FW is out or not.
Q: Will the new HDMI Board come out with the new FW or is there the next delay and another FW needs to be developed?
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Post by pbiancardi on Sept 16, 2022 4:06:31 GMT -5
Ok plot twist - this has nothing to do with the BasX, it's the XMC-2 that's humming which does not get sent to speakers with an XLR cable but does get sent to speakers with XLR to RCA cable so BasX is just amplifying the hum.
I didn't even notice this until I was moving wires around and had my ear close to XMC-2 which apparently has had this hum forever - cannot hear it from 2' away but can from 6". I have tried isolating the XMC-2 as the only thing I plug to an outlet, I have tried a cheater plug to lift ground to XMC-2, I have tried wire from the FM in to various points, I have tried with no cables plugged into XMC-2, nothing works the XMC-2 always hums.
Next step??
If cheater plug doesn't solve than a HumX or other ground filter will not either correct?
Edit - was able to narrow down even further, the hum / buzz is specifically coming through left front and rear height channels the right front and rear height are fine no buzz. Has this become an XMC-2 problem that needs attention?
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Sept 16, 2022 7:53:37 GMT -5
Ok plot twist - this has nothing to do with the BasX, it's the XMC-2 that's humming which does not get sent to speakers with an XLR cable but does get sent to speakers with XLR to RCA cable so BasX is just amplifying the hum. I didn't even notice this until I was moving wires around and had my ear close to XMC-2 which apparently has had this hum forever - cannot hear it from 2' away but can from 6". I have tried isolating the XMC-2 as the only thing I plug to an outlet, I have tried a cheater plug to lift ground to XMC-2, I have tried wire from the FM in to various points, I have tried with no cables plugged into XMC-2, nothing works the XMC-2 always hums. Next step?? If cheater plug doesn't solve than a HumX or other ground filter will not either correct? Edit - was able to narrow down even further, the hum / buzz is specifically coming through left front and rear height channels the right front and rear height are fine no buzz. Has this become an XMC-2 problem that needs attention? At least your getting somewhere with your diagnosis! Couple things. First, if there are no wires, cords, cables, attached to the XMC-2 except the power cable, and it is emanating a hum that can only be heard very close to the box, that might be normal, at least it is for some. I can only hear a faint "hum" if I place my ear directly on the XMC-2. Secondly, if the only speakers that emanate a hum while the system is on are the Left Front, and Left Rear HT channels, then connect those speaker connections to different channels on the amplifier which are known to not have hum, see if the hum follows the speaker wires. If so, then the speaker wires are collecting that hum from somewhere along their paths, and/or, the interconnects are collecting hum from somewhere. Move power cords away from signal wires and speaker wires. Where I live, all electrical is in metal conduit and metal boxes so the only electrical supply wires I ever worry about speaker runs being near are the low voltage wires in walls and floors. |
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Post by pbiancardi on Sept 16, 2022 8:53:47 GMT -5
Ok plot twist - this has nothing to do with the BasX, it's the XMC-2 that's humming which does not get sent to speakers with an XLR cable but does get sent to speakers with XLR to RCA cable so BasX is just amplifying the hum. I didn't even notice this until I was moving wires around and had my ear close to XMC-2 which apparently has had this hum forever - cannot hear it from 2' away but can from 6". I have tried isolating the XMC-2 as the only thing I plug to an outlet, I have tried a cheater plug to lift ground to XMC-2, I have tried wire from the FM in to various points, I have tried with no cables plugged into XMC-2, nothing works the XMC-2 always hums. Next step?? If cheater plug doesn't solve than a HumX or other ground filter will not either correct? Edit - was able to narrow down even further, the hum / buzz is specifically coming through left front and rear height channels the right front and rear height are fine no buzz. Has this become an XMC-2 problem that needs attention? At least your getting somewhere with your diagnosis! Couple things. First, if there are no wires, cords, cables, attached to the XMC-2 except the power cable, and it is emanating a hum that can only be heard very close to the box, that might be normal, at least it is for some. I can only hear a faint "hum" if I place my ear directly on the XMC-2. Secondly, if the only speakers that emanate a hum while the system is on are the Left Front, and Left Rear HT channels, then connect those speaker connections to different channels on the amplifier which are known to not have hum, see if the hum follows the speaker wires. If so, then the speaker wires are collecting that hum from somewhere along their paths, and/or, the interconnects are collecting hum from somewhere. Move power cords away from signal wires and speaker wires. Where I live, all electrical is in metal conduit and metal boxes so the only electrical supply wires I ever worry about speaker runs being near are the low voltage wires in walls and floors. I will do more testing this weekend including if the transformer isolation boxes fix anything. The hum seems to always be coming from the LF and LR height channels of the XMC-2, no matter which of the 5 amp channels I plug them into. There could be hum on the lower channels but just not making it to the speakers since they are XLR cables to Monoprice amp If I use my old Crown amps for the heights non of the channels hum when using pure XLR cable. The issue is only presenting itself when XLR to RCA transition is made. |
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ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Sept 16, 2022 9:03:50 GMT -5
The hum seems to always be coming from the LF and LR height channels of the XMC-2, no matter which of the 5 amp channels I plug them into. There could be hum on the lower channels but just not making it to the speakers since they are XLR cables to Monoprice amp Ok. So when you swap the speaker wires from LF & LR HT from their normal connection point on the amp to another output, the hum follows the speaker wires, correct? So this would be hum induced into the speaker wires. If I use my old Crown amps for the heights non of the channels hum when using pure XLR cable. The issue is only presenting itself when XLR to RCA transition is made. This is a different situation. Using XLR cables helps to eliminate noise induced into the cable being that it is a balanced configuration. When this is swapped out for a non-balanced cable, noise is induced into this cable. Look for ways for this to happen. It's possible the cable has a problem. The cable might be too close to a electrical wire of some sort, like a power cord. |
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. More like slightly buggy to buggier. 
