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Post by sahmen on May 24, 2020 16:42:36 GMT -5
These would be perfect, because I have already got me a pair of very lengthy RCA subwoofer cables from Monoprice that I was using with the XMC-1. Connecting those cables to a couple of these adapters on the XMC-2 seems like a no-brainer! I just ordered a pair. Thanks. |
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Post by foggy1956 on May 24, 2020 17:01:12 GMT -5
I too get differences in volume, but I believe those to be the various movie studios or even the audio mastering process. Anyhow like you, raising the volume does the trick, as the Disney/Marvel movies are notorious for mastering their movies 5-10db lower than say the Sony Pictures Marvel movies like Spider Man and Venom. ...........anyhow, back to priming my kitchen cabinet doors.  I don't want us to distract from the cause of issue here - I wish it were not the case, but there is absolutely a definite problem with implementation of dts Neural:X in a very basic and fundamental situation on my XMC-2 (A 7.1. speaker setup in my case (plus height speakers for Megash0n)). What occurs is a simple switch from normal audio output without Neural:X to poor (cloudy, smeared, indistinct) and lower volume audio simply by the engagement of the dts Neural:X surround listening mode. I noticed it within one hour of getting my XMC-2 delivered, and it has not gone away or been intermittent. I have hard reset, unplugged etc etc, held my breath to reinstall the firmware (Sometimes they brick!) and fiddled with every setting possible and the Emotiva simply doesn't do what it should. I have had an XMC-1 for 5 years. I know what 5.1 to 7.1 dts upmixing is meant to sound like! The poor performance is not user error or because of a wild or wacky setup. It is present in a simple 7.1 (and 7.2) situation with speakers set to either "all small" or "all large", with either same crossovers for all speakers or different ones for different size/capability speakers, With no bi-amping enabled (This functions is faulty for another reason - see my bug fixes needed at the end). It is not source dependant. Not PC vs Blu-ray vs DVD vs AppleTV It is not audio resolution related: Not lossy DTS vs lossless DTS-HD MA nor poorly or differently mastered tracks It is not "other DSP processing dependant" - not affected by selecting or deselecting Dynamic range control nor the Loudness setting nor trims that is causing the problem. I don't use PEQ nor enhanced bass etc It is not affected by speaker size (all small vs all large) nor by same or different crossovers nor by 12/24dB Crossover slope It is not secondary audio being mixed in from the Blu-ray player. It affects 5.1 tracks being upmixed to 7.1. (Resulting audio sounds terrible) It affects 7.1 being "upmixed" (Unfortunately when not required!) to 7.1 (when "Auto" selects Neural:X as the relevant surround mode for 7.1 to 7.1) (Resulting audio sounds terrible) Quite simply, it is the implementation of dts Neural:X in some situations, and, unfortunately for me, in every situation every single time that dts Neural:X is enabled either manually or automatically in the processor. (As previously mentioned, sometimes the front panel shows Neural:X as enabled, but it isn't! Sound is normal and good character with no volume drop and there is no upmixing occurring (my Rear Surrounds are silent with a 5,1 source, with Neural:X supposedly enabled i.e. it is not. In this case, toggling it and getting it to enable destroys the sound) Confirmed this afternoon with both my Oppo BDP-105 EU bitstreaming Blu-ray and then with a Sony UBP-X800 (4K blu-ray / SACD player) that I plugged in. The biggest confirmation that it is not the source, but the action of the dts Neural:X transcoder with 2.0, 5.1 and 7.1 PCM (PCM is PCM. No flags, nor Dynamic Range Control flags, just digital audio) resulting in the same foggy front soundstage at a lower volume, by increasing the volume by 6-7dB does not restore the dynamics. Dolby surround does a stellar job upmixing 2.0 or 5.1 to 7.1 in all of these settings whereas the output of dts Neural:X is intolerable. Yes. No melodrama. Intolerable. Not just quiet! I like to hear what the actors are saying, not mumbling. With 100% certainty there is something like internal audio extraction going on to speakers that do not exist in the 7.1 speaker configuration. I can get a similar effect by turning off the XPA-5 amplifier that has my centre speaker, both surrounds and one rear surround and then use the excellent Dolby Surround to upmix stereo. Audio is there one minute with no upmixing (2.0 over stereo speakers) and then turn on Dolby surround and audio is extracted and lost because some of my speakers are not powered up. My unfortunate workaround: bypass the processing on my £3500 Surround Sound Processor! Not quite what I paid for, but it is necessary. In my trawl through my Blu-ray discs for test material, I was struck how I have just 8 Dolby TrueHD 5.1 discs, 2 Dolby TrueHD 7.1 disks and 10 Atmos disks. Almost every single other disc is DTS-HD MA 5.1 and 7.1 (dts really has the market!) so my Emotiva cannot properly decode and play 80% of my Blu-rays! I don't have the patience of Megash0n to reach for the remote every time I get a DTS source and switch it to "Surround" in order to get good sound (but sacrifice my 7.1 Rear Surrounds in the process) My workaround is to set my Oppo BDP-105EU to output PCM over HDMI, so no bitstreaming. (DTS or Dolby) This mostly works for me as I have a 7.1 setup so no use for Atmos or DTS:X. However I do lose Dynamic Range Control on the XMC-2 for late night listening. This way I get 5.1 movies to my XMC-2 in 5.1 PCM and use the XMC-2's excellent Dolby Surround mode to upmix to 7.1 I get 7.1 movies in 7.1 PCM With my HTPC and JRiver I can be more discriminatory: I can automatically Bitstream Dolby over HDMI to the XMC-2 (all variants including Atmos) and I can set it to automatically convert all DTS to PCM (2.0, 5.2 and 7.1) so that the XMC-2 used the Dolby Surround Upmixer automatically. I should not need to do this on a modern, expensive Surround Sound Processor! Bugs that I think need to be raised: 1) Front Wide channel configuration to Bi-amp the Fronts works to duplicate the Front left and right but causes both Dolby Surround Upmixer and dts Neural:X upmixers to be called in to use when not needed. (e.g. Playing 7.1 in a 7.1 system) 2) There is NO WAY on these processors to reliably up-mix 5.1 dts to use all speakers in a 7.1 configuration. The Neural:X is not always doing the expected and usual simple job of just extracting audio from the Side Surrounds to fill the rear surrounds 3) When Auto mode selects a Surround mode based on what signal is being played, the correct Upmixer way well be displayed on the front panel, but is not always actually working (So still no 5.1 to 76.1 upmixing). Mostly toggling this manually with the Setup/Main menu fixes it but sometimes it doesn't. 4) dts Neural:X is producing unexpected behaviour in 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing (and, for Megash0n, 5.1/7.1 to 7.1.4) (and also in the "7.1 to 7.1" that occurs with bi-amping enabled!) . This type of upmixing should NOT affect the three front channels (making dialogue indistinct in particular and lowering the overall volume as a result) My unit does not act like yours does, have you talked to Emo about a replacement? |
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 24, 2020 18:17:20 GMT -5
Ok, to test whether this is the same or a different issue. Is Zone 2 set to the USB Input, or Follow Main? If it’s set to Follow Main, try changing it to USB and see if the static goes away. Edit: Also, when you have the static is it only in one channel? You got it, zone 2 input was set to follow main, I changed it for usb stream and static noise disappeared, also note that it plays louder and more dynamic. Yes the static noise is always in the left channel. Ok that’s interesting, I had listened to Zone 2 ‘casually’ since 1.10 and didn’t hear the static / popping sound when using Follow Main I first reported about a month ago, I assumed it was fixed. So, after reading you’re last post (and grabbing a beer) I decided to sit on the front porch and listen. When I use a USB stream from my Mac mini and Zone 2 is set to Follow Main, I don’t hear any of the static or popping I heard before 1.10, and both channels sound the same. However, when I switch Zone 2 to the USB input, the volume jumps 6 to 8 dB, not sure if it’s more dynamic, or just louder. So something’s still not right, I’ll report it. |
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Post by bluescale on May 24, 2020 18:38:05 GMT -5
I did a bit more DTS testing to see what I can determine.
Processor: XMC-2 configured for 7.1 output, with Firmware 1.10
Speakers: 7 powered Airmotiv monitors, set to small in the XMC-2
Subs: Rythmik D15SE and Rythmik F15HP
Sub Integration: MiniDSP 2x4HD
Source 1: Panasonic UB900 UHD Player set to bitstream audio
Source 2: HTPC running JRiver set to bitstream audio.
Movie: Dark Knight UHD (the disc for the UB900, and MKV for JRiver)
Two things to quickly get out of the way:
1. When switching between Neural:X and Surround (i.e., not upmixing), the volume drops ~5dB. All testing required that volume be adjusted between tests to account for this.
2. The UB900 and JRiver performed identically in all audio tests, so there's no need to differentiate between the two.
I can confirm that since upgrading to firmware 1.10, the issue is considerably better, but it still exists. I don't feel like dialog was lost as I did before when I was running 1.8 or 1.9, but sounds were still less crisp. This was obvious in the opening rooftop burglary scene, when the two robbers are discussing the silent alarm, and the sound of one of their bodies falling after he's shot. It's also quite evident in ambient noise during the Hong Kong scene, when Lucius is speaking to Bruce. Finally, I also realize I was wrong about bass output. Where there's still plenty (this is Dark Knight, after all), it's somewhat diminished. I could sense this in the scene where Batman shoots his explosives gel to the window of the skyscraper. The tactile feeling is diminished. It's not a much an issue as the upper registers, but it's definitely suffering.
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Post by Priapulus on May 24, 2020 18:51:16 GMT -5
I set my processor on top of my A-800 Amp. Then I used 8 of these cables to connect them, by cutting off the RCA females and soldering on RCA males. Made a very compact and tidy install. /b |
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Post by roadwar on May 24, 2020 22:12:59 GMT -5
Use the left and right subouts with xlr to rca adapters Exactly what I'd do as well, I'm just surprised that the PSA's don't have XLR inputs. The newer PSA subs do have them. |
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Post by markc on May 25, 2020 2:23:01 GMT -5
Dark Knight is my reference title for both audio and video, and I can tell you without a doubt that this problem (reduced dynamics when Neural:X engages) occurs for me when watching it. That's the movie where I recognized the problem in the first place. I noticed plenty of subwoofer umph, but it's in the mid and upper registers that things get bad. Interestingly, I'm *also* using JRiver to play movies. Also, I haven't watched a DTS movie since upgrading to 1.10. So, in a few minutes, I'll do some testing with the actual Dark Knight disk to see if that makes a difference. I'll also check to make sure there aren't any possible JRiver/Windows 10 settings that could be causing this issue. I'm skeptical of that point, but it is a common thread, so it needs to be investigated. I also just disabled my height channels to try out 7.1 with the Dark Knight 4K UHD-blurays so maybe I could replicate what you, markc and megashOn are experiencing and I'm not hearing what you all are describing. I believe you all are experiencing what you say you are, I just can't replicate it. Thank you for assisting in this. - Rather than Dark Knight as a 7.1 source, it is better and easier to use a 5.1 source in a 7.1 setting (Or more, but I can only speak for 7.1)
- This makes it easier to check that Neural:X is even engaged, as the rear surrounds should not be silent with 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing.
- You can use either a PCM or dts source. It doesn't matter as it is the implemetation and output of Neural:X that is the problem, irrespective of the source.
- I find vocal music easier to appreciate the worsened sound quality change as our ears are more tuned for musical soundstage and there is no scene-to-scene variation. I used the Adele Live At The Royal Albert Hall example initially because her usually dominant centre speaker vocal just evaporates from the centre channel across the front of the room and from nowhere in particular. (nb. all speakers including the centre are still working but sound is all muddy)
- Engage Neural:X, either by auto selection or manually. This should upmix the 5.1 to 7.1 (or more if you have the speakers)
- If you get no clouded sound or volume drop, check the rear surrounds. If they are silent then Neural:X hasn't kicked in despite what the front panel display says. Keep toggling Surround Mode until the 7.1's work. (A reliability issue in itself, sound quality aside!)
- The change in sound is not in any way subtle - when it is there, you will know!
- Again, it is not a volume change problem, although that occurs too. It is an upmixing problem affecting channels that the Neural:X is not meant to be touching
- Last night I played with a colleagues' Marantz 8805 and Neural:X sounds just like Dolby Surround when it upmixes 5.1 to 7.1. This is exactly as I would expect as on the XMC-1, dts ES and Dolby Prologic sounded the same. I understand the differences and debate between the two are to do with height channel extrapolation in 7.1.2 or .4 or .6 ceiling speakers
- Can this really be a hardware problem? Getting a replacement XMC-2 would fix this? I can't imagine broken wiring is causing this.
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Post by brbecker on May 25, 2020 9:00:58 GMT -5
Quick question. How should my RMC-1 be set up for a L/C/R, L/R ceiling, L/R rear surround. I don't have L/R side speakers? Thanks
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Post by aswiss on May 25, 2020 9:05:31 GMT -5
Keith, if you find a way to fix the DTS 96/24 decoding at the same time, please do! I have Queen's Greatest Hits I and II on DVD and commend them to anyone who may be in any way appreciative of Queen. They are absolutely awesome for the original videos (Which I usually turn off as audio only is more engaging) which have mighty fine DTS 96/24 muiltichannel 5.1 mixes all done from original multitrack masters. The XMC-1 plays them normally. The XMC-2 correctly shows 24 bit 96kHz on the front panel but playback is at a half speed low pitched drawl with the video stuttering along. I have the same Issue on BD Within Temptation / Black Symphony (2008) which contains several streams in several formats. Englisch (Dolby Digital 2.0), Englisch (Dolby Digital 5.1), Englisch (DTS 5.1 24/96), Englisch (PCM Stereo) Good Disc to switch between Dolby D and DTS.
DTS 5.1 24/96 is not working at all - the sound is slow, like you would put a finger on a vinyl platter. It's shown as DTS-MA 5.1 in the Display
That DTS had always less Vol is not new. But I agree, that the current Neural.X is not good sound at all.
Its some sort of washmachine sound sometime. no dynamics and not very precise.
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Post by markc on May 25, 2020 9:30:01 GMT -5
Quick question. How should my RMC-1 be set up for a L/C/R, L/R ceiling, L/R rear surround. I don't have L/R side speakers? Thanks It may depend on where exactly your rear surrounds are - Dolby recommends 90-110 degrees from the listening position and as side surrounds are more commonly used than rears, I think you might be better off going with calling them , www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/surround-sound-speaker-setup/5-1-setup.html- Front LCR
- Left Front height
- Right Front Height
- LR side (or rear?) surround (Simply called Left and Right surround in Dolby terminology)
I read that setting the heights as middle heights (rather than front or rear heights) causes them to not be activated in DTS-X, but I can't confirm that so it may be worth you experimenting with both Dolby and DTS (Although caution with dts Neural:X as per my (long) posts. |
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Post by megash0n on May 25, 2020 11:15:33 GMT -5
I did a bit more DTS testing to see what I can determine. Processor: XMC-2 configured for 7.1 output, with Firmware 1.10 Speakers: 7 powered Airmotiv monitors, set to small in the XMC-2 Subs: Rythmik D15SE and Rythmik F15HP Sub Integration: MiniDSP 2x4HD Source 1: Panasonic UB900 UHD Player set to bitstream audio Source 2: HTPC running JRiver set to bitstream audio. Movie: Dark Knight UHD (the disc for the UB900, and MKV for JRiver) Two things to quickly get out of the way: 1. When switching between Neural:X and Surround (i.e., not upmixing), the volume drops ~5dB. All testing required that volume be adjusted between tests to account for this. 2. The UB900 and JRiver performed identically in all audio tests, so there's no need to differentiate between the two. I can confirm that since upgrading to firmware 1.10, the issue is considerably better, but it still exists. I don't feel like dialog was lost as I did before when I was running 1.8 or 1.9, but sounds were still less crisp. This was obvious in the opening rooftop burglary scene, when the two robbers are discussing the silent alarm, and the sound of one of their bodies falling after he's shot. It's also quite evident in ambient noise during the Hong Kong scene, when Lucius is speaking to Bruce. Finally, I also realize I was wrong about bass output. Where there's still plenty (this is Dark Knight, after all), it's somewhat diminished. I could sense this in the scene where Batman shoots his explosives gel to the window of the skyscraper. The tactile feeling is diminished. It's not a much an issue as the upper registers, but it's definitely suffering. ok, I have had the largest difference between all of this testing thus far. I had to dig to find a Bluray disk with DTS on it. My testing consisted of Star Wars Episode III playing thru a Xbox One X plugged into HDMI 1. This track is DTS-HD MA 6.1. This test somewhat confirmed, un-scientifically, my suspicion that LFE isn't much affected. It is anything below the crossover point in relation to "low end complaints". I played the opening scene with Surround enabled, and it sounded really great. You could hear the whining of the ships all throughout the room. The point being... You COULD HEAR the ship's " Tie fighter type whining noise" All thru the first minute or so. I watched up until the first explosion which is a minute or so in. The explosion was impactful. Then, engaged auto mode and started over. The LFE track, low rumble at the beginning, didn't appear to be any different. But, when the ships came into the frame, I realized I couldn't hear them. The whine was almost completely gone. There was so much audio missing from what I had just heard. When I stopped at the explosion, it was almost silent until it happened. The explosion itself was a significant reduction in range and output as before. I encourage anyone with this issue to test this disk. |
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ttocs
Global Moderator 
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,154
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Post by ttocs on May 25, 2020 11:53:53 GMT -5
... I can't make a conclusion on any of this as it seems that different devices report what they want to report. Your TiVo is sending 720p:60Hz/YCbCr 4:4:4/12bit, but your Oppo just reports the incoming bit-depth a little differently (36bit = 12bits x 3 colors). Your Oppo is reprocessing the video (because it can) and sending 1080p:60Hz/YCbCr 4:4:4/8bit from its HDMI output. True, the output of the OPPO agrees with the input of the XMC-2, but, it's what the OPPO reports from the TiVo that is interesting. The TiVo is reported by the OPPO as 36bit color.What your Oppo is actually sending is more conducive to the HDMI spec and is all that's really necessary for that type of SDR signal. That's more what I would expect to see. While upstream EDID should always dictate what is sent from the source, where I see odd behavior is what your Epson projector is reporting as being received from your Tivo when connected through the XMC-2. First, in this scenario (as well as in your first scenario), your Tivo is connected directly to your XMC-2. But in the first example, your TiVo is sending 12bit color. Whereas in this example, it's sending 8bit color. I'll assume that the projector's EDID is dictating "no support for 12bit color", so the TiVo will not send 12bit. But then why not 10bit..? HDR-10 requires 10 bits of information per color. Your projector is capable of both 10bit color and HDR-10. The Epson 5040 handles 12bit by knocking it down to 10bit. See the attached chart below. I'm unclear as to what is going on when the source is connected to multiple devices concurrently like the PJ and Sony tv.Also in this example, the XMC-2 is reporting receiving "1080p/60 - 8bits - RGB 4:4:4 - HDR". Huh..? If HDR-10 requires "10 bits", how can it be 8bit HDR...? Dolby Vision can do this using 8bit color through RGB tunneling (which encodes the dynamic metadata within the least significant bits of the chroma channels), but this does not apply to (and is not used for) HDR-10. So I'm stumped by this one...  See Tivo Ted quote below:This will be my first "experiment" when I receive my RMC-1L... Doc, sorry for some confusion. I was late getting out of the house and posted an errant image, so I made 4 new images (not for the OPPO) just to be sure I didn't mess up something on the other three. Plus, each time I changed the HDR setting on the TiVo it would change the resolution setting back to Auto, which is why I messed up yesterday - I was trying to keep the resolution set to non-Auto. This time though, I just let it be Auto. Responses above in blue. Epson 5040UB color specs.  Sony X700 BD player playing a DV movie (paused on black (I try when possible to not include copyrighted material)) through XMC-2 then out to both the PJ and TV. This is to show what happens with the PJ when presented with a device capable of giving 12bit color.  I'm going through all of this to try to understand how all this works and if things are being reported accurately. I'm not claiming any conclusions, just wanting to learn why things do what they do and to see if something is amiss anywhere seeing that some things are not reported correctly. Tivo Ted quote: I wonder if this is why things seem messed up with 8bit HDR?
"With TiVo BOLT, BOLT+, BOLT VOX, BOLT OTA and with MINI VOX, we support both HDR10 and HLG. When you set HDR to “Auto”, we pass through whatever we get in, and you only get HDR when you are playing back full screen video with HDR (i.e. not when video is in a PIP, the guide is up, etc.).
With TiVo Edge, we can now do “tone mapping” to convert between one colorspace/format and another. We can also up-convert SDR into “fake” HDR. So, they changed the definition of what “Auto” does to have everything map into HDR10 or Dolby Vision, depending on what the TV can support. We convert it to 4K 60Hz PQ picture curve in a bt2020 color space and 12-bit color. We also up-convert our entire UI into HDR. So, you get more rich graphics in the UI, and the video is always HDR even when it’s playing in a window or in the background.
It sounds like a similar issue that Apple ran into with Apple TV. They added another option between Off and Auto called Match Dynamic Range to pass through the various HDR formats without tone mapping them. I am requesting that we add a similar option so that EDGE can handle HDR more like BOLT does."
Thoughts? |
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Post by marcl on May 25, 2020 12:12:05 GMT -5
I did a bit more DTS testing to see what I can determine. Processor: XMC-2 configured for 7.1 output, with Firmware 1.10 Speakers: 7 powered Airmotiv monitors, set to small in the XMC-2 Subs: Rythmik D15SE and Rythmik F15HP Sub Integration: MiniDSP 2x4HD Source 1: Panasonic UB900 UHD Player set to bitstream audio Source 2: HTPC running JRiver set to bitstream audio. Movie: Dark Knight UHD (the disc for the UB900, and MKV for JRiver) Two things to quickly get out of the way: 1. When switching between Neural:X and Surround (i.e., not upmixing), the volume drops ~5dB. All testing required that volume be adjusted between tests to account for this. 2. The UB900 and JRiver performed identically in all audio tests, so there's no need to differentiate between the two. I can confirm that since upgrading to firmware 1.10, the issue is considerably better, but it still exists. I don't feel like dialog was lost as I did before when I was running 1.8 or 1.9, but sounds were still less crisp. This was obvious in the opening rooftop burglary scene, when the two robbers are discussing the silent alarm, and the sound of one of their bodies falling after he's shot. It's also quite evident in ambient noise during the Hong Kong scene, when Lucius is speaking to Bruce. Finally, I also realize I was wrong about bass output. Where there's still plenty (this is Dark Knight, after all), it's somewhat diminished. I could sense this in the scene where Batman shoots his explosives gel to the window of the skyscraper. The tactile feeling is diminished. It's not a much an issue as the upper registers, but it's definitely suffering. ok, I have had the largest difference between all of this testing thus far. I had to dig to find a Bluray disk with DTS on it. My testing consisted of Star Wars Episode III playing thru a Xbox One X plugged into HDMI 1. This track is DTS-HD MA 6.1. This test somewhat confirmed, un-scientifically, my suspicion that LFE isn't much affected. It is anything below the crossover point in relation to "low end complaints". I played the opening scene with Surround enabled, and it sounded really great. You could hear the whining of the ships all throughout the room. The point being... You COULD HEAR the ship's " Tie fighter type whining noise" All thru the first minute or so. I watched up until the first explosion which is a minute or so in. The explosion was impactful. Then, engaged auto mode and started over. The LFE track, low rumble at the beginning, didn't appear to be any different. But, when the ships came into the frame, I realized I couldn't hear them. The whine was almost completely gone. There was so much audio missing from what I had just heard. When I stopped at the explosion, it was almost silent until it happened. The explosion itself was a significant reduction in range and output as before. I encourage anyone with this issue to test this disk. At the risk of sadistic hippophilic necrophilia :-) I have a Donald Fagen box with three of his albums on DVD in Dolby Surround 5.1, DTS Surround 5.1 and PCM Stereo 48/24. Wow are the results of this weird! The Dolby sounds great in both Surround and DD Surround upmix, equal volume for both. Stereo sounds good, same level as Dolby Surround. And Stereo sounds good and similar level upmixed with DD Surround. Stereo sounds thin and weird upmixed to DTS Neural:X, and is about 5db lower level. But the weirdest thing is playing the DTS Surround 5.1. It's unlistenable and even a bit scary in that the bass is so heavy and the highs are nearly gone, and the keyboards actually sound out of tune! It's almost like wow and flutter. Completely messed up surround and nothing like the Dolby sound. It's maybe like a couple of the surround channels are just missing. Anyway FWIW. And ... let me pile on my ongoing complaint, that multichannel PCM music (5.1, 5.0) that is neither Dolby nor DTS ... does not upmix with either. |
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Post by geebo on May 25, 2020 12:28:16 GMT -5
ok, I have had the largest difference between all of this testing thus far. I had to dig to find a Bluray disk with DTS on it. My testing consisted of Star Wars Episode III playing thru a Xbox One X plugged into HDMI 1. This track is DTS-HD MA 6.1. This test somewhat confirmed, un-scientifically, my suspicion that LFE isn't much affected. It is anything below the crossover point in relation to "low end complaints". I played the opening scene with Surround enabled, and it sounded really great. You could hear the whining of the ships all throughout the room. The point being... You COULD HEAR the ship's " Tie fighter type whining noise" All thru the first minute or so. I watched up until the first explosion which is a minute or so in. The explosion was impactful. Then, engaged auto mode and started over. The LFE track, low rumble at the beginning, didn't appear to be any different. But, when the ships came into the frame, I realized I couldn't hear them. The whine was almost completely gone. There was so much audio missing from what I had just heard. When I stopped at the explosion, it was almost silent until it happened. The explosion itself was a significant reduction in range and output as before. I encourage anyone with this issue to test this disk. At the risk of sadistic hippophilic necrophilia :-) I have a Donald Fagen box with three of his albums on DVD in Dolby Surround 5.1, DTS Surround 5.1 and PCM Stereo 48/24. Wow are the results of this weird! The Dolby sounds great in both Surround and DD Surround upmix, equal volume for both. Stereo sounds good, same level as Dolby Surround. And Stereo sounds good and similar level upmixed with DD Surround. Stereo sounds thin and weird upmixed to DTS Neural:X, and is about 5db lower level. But the weirdest thing is playing the DTS Surround 5.1. It's unlistenable and even a bit scary in that the bass is so heavy and the highs are nearly gone, and the keyboards actually sound out of tune! It's almost like wow and flutter. Completely messed up surround and nothing like the Dolby sound. It's maybe like a couple of the surround channels are just missing. Anyway FWIW. And ... let me pile on my ongoing complaint, that multichannel PCM music (5.1, 5.0) that is neither Dolby nor DTS ... does not upmix with either. Is one of them Nightfly? I have that in DVD-Audio 5.1 and may try it out tonight if I get a chance. I do know the regular CD version is pretty thin and the DVD-A is much better. |
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Post by marcl on May 25, 2020 12:47:18 GMT -5
At the risk of sadistic hippophilic necrophilia :-) I have a Donald Fagen box with three of his albums on DVD in Dolby Surround 5.1, DTS Surround 5.1 and PCM Stereo 48/24. Wow are the results of this weird! The Dolby sounds great in both Surround and DD Surround upmix, equal volume for both. Stereo sounds good, same level as Dolby Surround. And Stereo sounds good and similar level upmixed with DD Surround. Stereo sounds thin and weird upmixed to DTS Neural:X, and is about 5db lower level. But the weirdest thing is playing the DTS Surround 5.1. It's unlistenable and even a bit scary in that the bass is so heavy and the highs are nearly gone, and the keyboards actually sound out of tune! It's almost like wow and flutter. Completely messed up surround and nothing like the Dolby sound. It's maybe like a couple of the surround channels are just missing. Anyway FWIW. And ... let me pile on my ongoing complaint, that multichannel PCM music (5.1, 5.0) that is neither Dolby nor DTS ... does not upmix with either. Is one of them Nightfly? I have that in DVD-Audio 5.1 and may try it out tonight if I get a chance. I do know the regular CD version is pretty thin and the DVD-A is much better. Yes it includes Nightfly, Morph The Cat and Kamakiriad. I tested all the modes as described with Morph The Cat. Listened to all of Nightfly in Dolby 5.1 and it sounded great. |
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Post by geebo on May 25, 2020 13:06:53 GMT -5
Is one of them Nightfly? I have that in DVD-Audio 5.1 and may try it out tonight if I get a chance. I do know the regular CD version is pretty thin and the DVD-A is much better. Yes it includes Nightfly, Morph The Cat and Kamakiriad. I tested all the modes as described with Morph The Cat. Listened to all of Nightfly in Dolby 5.1 and it sounded great. It IS a very good recording. |
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Post by markc on May 25, 2020 13:47:44 GMT -5
ok, I have had the largest difference between all of this testing thus far. I had to dig to find a Bluray disk with DTS on it. My testing consisted of Star Wars Episode III playing thru a Xbox One X plugged into HDMI 1. This track is DTS-HD MA 6.1. This test somewhat confirmed, un-scientifically, my suspicion that LFE isn't much affected. It is anything below the crossover point in relation to "low end complaints". I played the opening scene with Surround enabled, and it sounded really great. You could hear the whining of the ships all throughout the room. The point being... You COULD HEAR the ship's " Tie fighter type whining noise" All thru the first minute or so. I watched up until the first explosion which is a minute or so in. The explosion was impactful. Then, engaged auto mode and started over. The LFE track, low rumble at the beginning, didn't appear to be any different. But, when the ships came into the frame, I realized I couldn't hear them. The whine was almost completely gone. There was so much audio missing from what I had just heard. When I stopped at the explosion, it was almost silent until it happened. The explosion itself was a significant reduction in range and output as before. I encourage anyone with this issue to test this disk. At the risk of sadistic hippophilic necrophilia :-) I have a Donald Fagen box with three of his albums on DVD in Dolby Surround 5.1, DTS Surround 5.1 and PCM Stereo 48/24. Wow are the results of this weird! The Dolby sounds great in both Surround and DD Surround upmix, equal volume for both. Stereo sounds good, same level as Dolby Surround. And Stereo sounds good and similar level upmixed with DD Surround. Stereo sounds thin and weird upmixed to DTS Neural:X, and is about 5db lower level. But the weirdest thing is playing the DTS Surround 5.1. It's unlistenable and even a bit scary in that the bass is so heavy and the highs are nearly gone, and the keyboards actually sound out of tune! It's almost like wow and flutter. Completely messed up surround and nothing like the Dolby sound. It's maybe like a couple of the surround channels are just missing. Anyway FWIW. And ... let me pile on my ongoing complaint, that multichannel PCM music (5.1, 5.0) that is neither Dolby nor DTS ... does not upmix with either. My Nightfly is SACD - Stereo and Multichannel. I hadn't listened to it in a while, but now I am as I write this! At least dts Neural:X leaves that alone! Megash0n, I confirmed your collapsed sound with the Tie Fighters in Star Wars III - it just sounds typical of the issue I have been getting all along, and again makes me think sound is getting upmixed into a void somewhere with lost audio. Can we agree then, that enough of us are getting a SIGNIFICANT issue with Neural:X so that LCSeminole could raise on our behalf my snag list ~I posted at the weekend: Bugs that I think need to be raised: (2&4 relate to problems with the function of dts Neural:X upmixing/action, 1 and 3 are additional and separate issues, but brought to light by the faulty Neural:X) 1) Front Wide channel configuration to Bi-amp the Fronts works to duplicate the Front left and right but causes both Dolby Surround Upmixer and dts Neural:X upmixers to be called in to use when not needed. (e.g. Playing 7.1 in a 7.1 system) 2) There is NO WAY on these processors to reliably up-mix 5.1 dts to use all speakers in a 7.1 configuration. The Neural:X is not always doing the expected and usual simple job of just extracting audio from the Side Surrounds to fill the rear surrounds 3) When Auto mode selects a Surround mode based on what signal is being played, the correct Upmixer way well be displayed on the front panel, but is not always actually working (So still no 5.1 to 76.1 upmixing). Mostly toggling this manually with the Setup/Main menu fixes it but sometimes it doesn't. 4) dts Neural:X is producing unexpected behaviour in 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing (and, for Megash0n, 5.1/7.1 to 7.1.4) (and also in the "7.1 to 7.1" that occurs with bi-amping enabled!) . This type of upmixing should NOT affect the three front channels (making dialogue indistinct in particular and lowering the overall volume as a result) |
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ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,154
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Post by ttocs on May 25, 2020 14:07:09 GMT -5
At the risk of sadistic hippophilic necrophilia :-) I have a Donald Fagen box with three of his albums on DVD in Dolby Surround 5.1, DTS Surround 5.1 and PCM Stereo 48/24. Wow are the results of this weird! The Dolby sounds great in both Surround and DD Surround upmix, equal volume for both. Stereo sounds good, same level as Dolby Surround. And Stereo sounds good and similar level upmixed with DD Surround. Stereo sounds thin and weird upmixed to DTS Neural:X, and is about 5db lower level. But the weirdest thing is playing the DTS Surround 5.1. It's unlistenable and even a bit scary in that the bass is so heavy and the highs are nearly gone, and the keyboards actually sound out of tune! It's almost like wow and flutter. Completely messed up surround and nothing like the Dolby sound. It's maybe like a couple of the surround channels are just missing. Anyway FWIW. And ... let me pile on my ongoing complaint, that multichannel PCM music (5.1, 5.0) that is neither Dolby nor DTS ... does not upmix with either. My Nightfly is SACD - Stereo and Multichannel. I hadn't listened to it in a while, but now I am as I write this! At least dts Neural:X leaves that alone! Megash0n, I confirmed your collapsed sound with the Tie Fighters in Star Wars III - it just sounds typical of the issue I have been getting all along, and again makes me think sound is getting upmixed into a void somewhere with lost audio. Can we agree then, that enough of us are getting a SIGNIFICANT issue with Neural:X so that LCSeminole could raise on our behalf my snag list ~I posted at the weekend: Bugs that I think need to be raised: (2&4 relate to problems with the function of dts Neural:X upmixing/action, 1 and 3 are additional and separate issues, but brought to light by the faulty Neural:X) 1) Front Wide channel configuration to Bi-amp the Fronts works to duplicate the Front left and right but causes both Dolby Surround Upmixer and dts Neural:X upmixers to be called in to use when not needed. (e.g. Playing 7.1 in a 7.1 system) 2) There is NO WAY on these processors to reliably up-mix 5.1 dts to use all speakers in a 7.1 configuration. The Neural:X is not always doing the expected and usual simple job of just extracting audio from the Side Surrounds to fill the rear surrounds 3) When Auto mode selects a Surround mode based on what signal is being played, the correct Upmixer way well be displayed on the front panel, but is not always actually working (So still no 5.1 to 76.1 upmixing). Mostly toggling this manually with the Setup/Main menu fixes it but sometimes it doesn't. 4) dts Neural:X is producing unexpected behaviour in 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing (and, for Megash0n, 5.1/7.1 to 7.1.4) (and also in the "7.1 to 7.1" that occurs with bi-amping enabled!) . This type of upmixing should NOT affect the three front channels (making dialogue indistinct in particular and lowering the overall volume as a result) I think I'm ready to jump in on this so need some help. What movie should I use? and Does it matter if streamed or on disc? |
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Post by megash0n on May 25, 2020 15:03:14 GMT -5
My Nightfly is SACD - Stereo and Multichannel. I hadn't listened to it in a while, but now I am as I write this! At least dts Neural:X leaves that alone! Megash0n, I confirmed your collapsed sound with the Tie Fighters in Star Wars III - it just sounds typical of the issue I have been getting all along, and again makes me think sound is getting upmixed into a void somewhere with lost audio. Can we agree then, that enough of us are getting a SIGNIFICANT issue with Neural:X so that LCSeminole could raise on our behalf my snag list ~I posted at the weekend: Bugs that I think need to be raised: (2&4 relate to problems with the function of dts Neural:X upmixing/action, 1 and 3 are additional and separate issues, but brought to light by the faulty Neural:X) 1) Front Wide channel configuration to Bi-amp the Fronts works to duplicate the Front left and right but causes both Dolby Surround Upmixer and dts Neural:X upmixers to be called in to use when not needed. (e.g. Playing 7.1 in a 7.1 system) 2) There is NO WAY on these processors to reliably up-mix 5.1 dts to use all speakers in a 7.1 configuration. The Neural:X is not always doing the expected and usual simple job of just extracting audio from the Side Surrounds to fill the rear surrounds 3) When Auto mode selects a Surround mode based on what signal is being played, the correct Upmixer way well be displayed on the front panel, but is not always actually working (So still no 5.1 to 76.1 upmixing). Mostly toggling this manually with the Setup/Main menu fixes it but sometimes it doesn't. 4) dts Neural:X is producing unexpected behaviour in 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing (and, for Megash0n, 5.1/7.1 to 7.1.4) (and also in the "7.1 to 7.1" that occurs with bi-amping enabled!) . This type of upmixing should NOT affect the three front channels (making dialogue indistinct in particular and lowering the overall volume as a result) I think I'm ready to jump in on this so need some help. What movie should I use? and Does it matter if streamed or on disc? I have found no difference between streamed or disk. Any DTS track I test does the same. I think the higher the bit rate, the more opportunity there is to hear the difference. Some examples are Batman (Dark Knight ones) with the DTS track, Star Wars saga 1-6 (ideally the first 3 as the middle three won't be recorded well), The Crazies, World War Z. I guess I could list every movie I've watched recently, but really... It's anything with a DTS track. |
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Post by megash0n on May 25, 2020 15:07:49 GMT -5
At the risk of sadistic hippophilic necrophilia :-) I have a Donald Fagen box with three of his albums on DVD in Dolby Surround 5.1, DTS Surround 5.1 and PCM Stereo 48/24. Wow are the results of this weird! The Dolby sounds great in both Surround and DD Surround upmix, equal volume for both. Stereo sounds good, same level as Dolby Surround. And Stereo sounds good and similar level upmixed with DD Surround. Stereo sounds thin and weird upmixed to DTS Neural:X, and is about 5db lower level. But the weirdest thing is playing the DTS Surround 5.1. It's unlistenable and even a bit scary in that the bass is so heavy and the highs are nearly gone, and the keyboards actually sound out of tune! It's almost like wow and flutter. Completely messed up surround and nothing like the Dolby sound. It's maybe like a couple of the surround channels are just missing. Anyway FWIW. And ... let me pile on my ongoing complaint, that multichannel PCM music (5.1, 5.0) that is neither Dolby nor DTS ... does not upmix with either. My Nightfly is SACD - Stereo and Multichannel. I hadn't listened to it in a while, but now I am as I write this! At least dts Neural:X leaves that alone! Megash0n, I confirmed your collapsed sound with the Tie Fighters in Star Wars III - it just sounds typical of the issue I have been getting all along, and again makes me think sound is getting upmixed into a void somewhere with lost audio. Can we agree then, that enough of us are getting a SIGNIFICANT issue with Neural:X so that LCSeminole could raise on our behalf my snag list ~I posted at the weekend: Bugs that I think need to be raised: (2&4 relate to problems with the function of dts Neural:X upmixing/action, 1 and 3 are additional and separate issues, but brought to light by the faulty Neural:X) 1) Front Wide channel configuration to Bi-amp the Fronts works to duplicate the Front left and right but causes both Dolby Surround Upmixer and dts Neural:X upmixers to be called in to use when not needed. (e.g. Playing 7.1 in a 7.1 system) 2) There is NO WAY on these processors to reliably up-mix 5.1 dts to use all speakers in a 7.1 configuration. The Neural:X is not always doing the expected and usual simple job of just extracting audio from the Side Surrounds to fill the rear surrounds 3) When Auto mode selects a Surround mode based on what signal is being played, the correct Upmixer way well be displayed on the front panel, but is not always actually working (So still no 5.1 to 76.1 upmixing). Mostly toggling this manually with the Setup/Main menu fixes it but sometimes it doesn't. 4) dts Neural:X is producing unexpected behaviour in 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing (and, for Megash0n, 5.1/7.1 to 7.1.4) (and also in the "7.1 to 7.1" that occurs with bi-amping enabled!) . This type of upmixing should NOT affect the three front channels (making dialogue indistinct in particular and lowering the overall volume as a result) For clarity sake, I am running 5.x.4 with side surrounds and no rears. I use center sub output in mono mode feeding a balanced MiniDSP that controls two subs. I have the set up configured for no rears. |
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