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Post by chops on Oct 25, 2020 10:24:31 GMT -5
Honestly, when was the last time anyone heard power supply hum coming from their amplifier(s)?
Any decently made amplifier in the past 30+ years probably hasn't had hum issues unless something else has gone wrong with it, or simply very poor cable management and inferior interconnect cables were used when installing the amp and other gear into the rack.
Everyone talks about SMPS' being cleaner, quieter, lighter, more efficient and cheaper to produce, but none of them mention anything about SMPS' dumping very audible noise (ripple) back into the AC lines where the rest of your gear is also connected and can possibly pick back up and send that noise through the rest of your system to get amplified anyway.
I would love to be able to get my brother's XPA-DR2 in my system and compare it side by side with my XPA-2 Gen 2 to see what how they differ and which one actually sounds better (to my liking). However, knowing my brother, that will most likely never happen.
I'm sure if you have nothing else to compare to, any and all of the latest SMPS offerings from Emotiva sound just fine. But if you have their older traditional designs or other amplifiers with linear PS' to compare to, your outlook might be different.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Oct 25, 2020 12:13:09 GMT -5
but none of them mention anything about SMPS' dumping very audible noise (ripple) back into the AC lines where the rest of your gear is also connected and can possibly pick back up and send that noise through the rest of your system to get amplified anyway. ; Have you had this happen? With what gear? |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Oct 25, 2020 14:26:34 GMT -5
All Emotiva equipment is CE certified. What that means is that the piece of equipment has to be tested to meet standards levels for conducted and radiated emissions as well as standards for susceptibility to Electromagnetic interference and conducted energy. This does not guarantee a noise free installation, but it does verify acceptable emissions and susceptibility levels. All equipment that is sold in the European Union MUST meet these testing standards.
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Post by ottaone on Oct 25, 2020 15:40:14 GMT -5
I had really bad hum from three PA-1s in my setup. No hum in one section of the basement but I didn’t want to spend too much time solving it on my setup. Sold the PA-1s and still waiting for a good deal on other monos like XPA, UPA, or even Outlaws.
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Post by MusicHead on Oct 25, 2020 15:41:00 GMT -5
but none of them mention anything about SMPS' dumping very audible noise (ripple) back into the AC lines where the rest of your gear is also connected and can possibly pick back up and send that noise through the rest of your system to get amplified anyway. ; Have you had this happen? With what gear? , further to David (dyohn) point, a SMPS switching frequency is much higher than the audio band (as Lonnie explained). Since physics dictate thar harmonics can only be multiples of the fundamental frequency, it is simply not possible that a 100kHz or 200kHz signal be audible. You are correct that (poorly designed) SMPS will "feed back" noise to the main, but the issue it may create is not that of audibility. As it is the case with solid state vs tubes or Analog vs Digital, the way we ear things is subjective. Thus, nobody can tell you that you must like an amplifier with a SMPS or that it sounds objectively better than one with a linear supply. However, that in the context of supplying power a SMPS has certain advantage over a linear power supply is a fact. As engineering is always about trade-offs, SMPS are not perfect for sure. However, they are not the sort of "evil sorcery" they are often described as. |
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Post by rbk123 on Oct 25, 2020 20:06:41 GMT -5
Everyone talks about SMPS' being cleaner, quieter, lighter, more efficient and cheaper to produce, but none of them mention anything about SMPS' dumping very audible noise (ripple) back into the AC lines where the rest of your gear is also connected and can possibly pick back up and send that noise through the rest of your system to get amplified anyway. Ripple is when a power supply is supplying unsteady DC power, since a power supply, regardless of type, has the main goal of providing steady DC power as if it were a battery. A power supply doesn't push ripple into the power lines it's plugged in to; a power supply pushes ripple downstream to the components it is powering. Sag is something that could happen that might affect other components plugged into the same AC line, but that's not noise; it is something that basically results in dirty power to the power supply of the other electronics on that line. Ripple isn't the type of noise old SMPS's were guilty of; that is something else. |
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Post by tchaik on Oct 25, 2020 21:18:45 GMT -5
Creimes said "I know audiobill rains down holy hell on the Emotiva stuff all the time but not all of us can afford the likes of McIntosh, Krell, Bryston and even Parasound." I want to offer some clarification. Over time, I've owned an XDA2, XSP1, XPA2, XPA1s, DC1, XPS1. and cables from Emotiva. I've also hand built over 100 tube amps and preamps so feel just a little familiar with what's inside this stuff. Without exception, I've felt that the Emotiva components offered fine performance and superb value. But, for me, there are other attributes like tradition, aesthetics, long-term reliability, build quality, resale value and overall pride of ownership that make the increased "investment" well worthwhile. And I've been very, very fortunate enough to be able to do so. I also understand that this equation may not work for everyone on their journey. I also feel that @keithl, in particular, while very knowledgeable comes off as as a shill for Emotiva. Read his posts and opinions on Magneplanars, tubes, streaming, heavy transformers (!), multibit dacs, Sabre dacs, and anything else Emotiva doesn't offer and you'll see what I mean. All in the guise of enlightened technical expertise. Personally, I've never completely trusted anyone that holds himself out as a "guru". Also, for a Company that touts its "all out assault on the high end", it should be able to back up this claim in all aspects or stay on the porch. This is a hobby, science and art all wrapped into one. So lots of opinions keep things lively. Bill Well said, Bill. just one caveat to bill....... I agree with most of what he has said except calling Keith a shill for Emotiva. Keith is their employee. it is his job to argue the strengths of the product his company offers. that should be expected. using "shill" as description is a little much.. here is the current definition of shill...... "an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others." in the future try something less pejorative. Tchaik...... |
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Post by audiobill on Oct 26, 2020 4:57:25 GMT -5
Thanks, tchaik, agree. Then I think perhaps his views could be explicitly presented as less than neutral and objective with an appropriate disclaimer.
Perhaps something like a tagline such as :
"These represent the views and opinions of the Company and your experience may very well differ" ?
Best,
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 26, 2020 8:28:04 GMT -5
just one caveat to bill....... I agree with most of what he has said except calling Keith a shill for Emotiva. Keith is their employee. it is his job to argue the strengths of the product his company offers. that should be expected. using "shill" as description is a little much.. here is the current definition of shill...... "an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others." in the future try something less pejorative. Tchaik...... It's called hyperbole, a figure of speech! Only dolts don't understand that! (also hyperbole!) |
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Post by brutiarti on Oct 26, 2020 9:14:41 GMT -5
I would love to see Lonnie consulting for a cost no object company. Kind of Peter Madnick Elac Alchemy/Constellation Audio
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Post by tchaik on Oct 26, 2020 11:53:11 GMT -5
just one caveat to bill....... I agree with most of what he has said except calling Keith a shill for Emotiva. Keith is their employee. it is his job to argue the strengths of the product his company offers. that should be expected. using "shill" as description is a little much.. here is the current definition of shill...... "an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others." in the future try something less pejorative. Tchaik...... It's called hyperbole, a figure of speech! Only dolts don't understand that! (also hyperbole!) really..... your response is to call me a dolt? hyperbole is completely understood, which is why bill's use was not an example thereof......... take notice my response includes no insults, sarcasm, hyperbole or perjorative....... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2020 12:42:27 GMT -5
Thanks, tchaik, agree. Then I think perhaps his views could be explicitly presented as less than neutral and objective with an appropriate disclaimer. Perhaps something like a tagline such as : "These represent the views and opinions of the Company and your experience may very well differ" ? Best, Keyword, "representative". Note, I always like the disclaimer in the beginning of movies by production companies saying, "All views may not represent..... And, I'd like to see a disclaimer whenever clicking anywhere onto the internet which conveys a "fictitious character disclaimer" towards anyone we may interact w/.  Of course there's the pesky fact checkers online until ya call one out then they hide behind the corporate straw man. |
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Post by chops on Oct 26, 2020 16:50:46 GMT -5
All Emotiva equipment is CE certified. What that means is that the piece of equipment has to be tested to meet standards levels for conducted and radiated emissions as well as standards for susceptibility to Electromagnetic interference and conducted energy. This does not guarantee a noise free installation, but it does verify acceptable emissions and susceptibility levels. All equipment that is sold in the European Union MUST meet these testing standards. Have you had this happen? With what gear? , further to David (dyohn) point, a SMPS switching frequency is much higher than the audio band (as Lonnie explained). Since physics dictate thar harmonics can only be multiples of the fundamental frequency, it is simply not possible that a 100kHz or 200kHz signal be audible. You are correct that (poorly designed) SMPS will "feed back" noise to the main, but the issue it may create is not that of audibility. As it is the case with solid state vs tubes or Analog vs Digital, the way we ear things is subjective. Thus, nobody can tell you that you must like an amplifier with a SMPS or that it sounds objectively better than one with a linear supply. However, that in the context of supplying power a SMPS has certain advantage over a linear power supply is a fact. As engineering is always about trade-offs, SMPS are not perfect for sure. However, they are not the sort of "evil sorcery" they are often described as. Everyone talks about SMPS' being cleaner, quieter, lighter, more efficient and cheaper to produce, but none of them mention anything about SMPS' dumping very audible noise (ripple) back into the AC lines where the rest of your gear is also connected and can possibly pick back up and send that noise through the rest of your system to get amplified anyway. Ripple is when a power supply is supplying unsteady DC power, since a power supply, regardless of type, has the main goal of providing steady DC power as if it were a battery. A power supply doesn't push ripple into the power lines it's plugged in to; a power supply pushes ripple downstream to the components it is powering. Sag is something that could happen that might affect other components plugged into the same AC line, but that's not noise; it is something that basically results in dirty power to the power supply of the other electronics on that line. Ripple isn't the type of noise old SMPS's were guilty of; that is something else. Guys, I guess what I was talking about was more inline with older, cheap wall warts and such more so than large, well designed and built SMPS' in audio equipment. Guess I jumped the gun a little there. I apologize for the fuss. With that being said, I have had cheap wall warts and SMSP' in the past that had injected a high pitched zapping sounding buzz on occasion in past systems. I haven't had such issues in quite a few years however. Using good line conditioners and using ifi power wall warts when possible, those types of issues are a thing of the past. |
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Post by audiobill on Oct 26, 2020 18:00:58 GMT -5
Sure looks like the customer, who of course is always right, wasn’t screaming demand for the smps....
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Oct 26, 2020 19:35:48 GMT -5
Sure looks like the customer, who of course is always right, wasn’t screaming demand for the smps.... Customer just wants the best performance for the dollar he/she is spending. If your obsessed with the topologies and implementation, then you are interested in more than just SQ/$. Some people are more enamored with the technology (or lack thereof) in which case they are seen as purists or technocrats. |
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Post by chops on Oct 26, 2020 19:50:45 GMT -5
Ah, but those topologies and implementations contribute heavily to the end result of the sound quality of the unit in question. So sometimes, it's just as important to looks at those aspects as well measurements, etc, etc.
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Post by Cogito on Oct 26, 2020 19:58:33 GMT -5
This is a no win discussion. Why do you own audio equipment? Why do you care what is inside the box? Do you like the sound quality at the price you paid for it? I get the aspects of resale value and aesthetics, but those attributes don't effect the sound quality (unless you are guided by psycho-acoustic effects). Quality and reliability are both perceived and real. If a piece of equipment "looks good" one thinks that it has a higher quality, but that is not always true. If a piece of equipment fails, and many of the same model fail, then it is of poor quality. If you have a piece of equipment and it fails, your conclusion is that it is of poor quality, but even a $100K+ piece of equipment fails. No one has absolute quality. BTW - I have not read any posts on this forum that attribute a failure to an SMPS in Emotiva's equipment, certainly not any higher failure rate than a conventional linear power supply. Virtually all electronics today are powered by switch mode power supplies for the reasons Lonnie mentioned. The vast majority of "Hi-End" audio is powered with linear power supplies, not SMPS. |
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Post by davidl81 on Oct 26, 2020 20:38:55 GMT -5
Sure looks like the customer, who of course is always right, wasn’t screaming demand for the smps.... Or maybe it just did not make economic sense to build those units in China any more. Lots of cost factors with China compared to 10-15 years ago, tariffs, cost of labor in China increasing etc. So maybe the margins we not as good to build those big units there anymore. Then looking at the switching power supply they realized they could build the modular units in Tenn (assy) and end up keeping the prices down/make more profit per unit. Emotiva also sees what they are selling. I would guess they saw how many 5-7 channel amps they were selling compared to monoblocks/stereo amps. And they decided to make an amp that best served the majority of the customers they sell to. |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Oct 26, 2020 21:48:55 GMT -5
Virtually all electronics today are powered by switch mode power supplies for the reasons Lonnie mentioned. The vast majority of "Hi-End" audio is powered with linear power supplies, not SMPS. Yes and no. Equipment with heavy digital processing usually use SMPS for bulk power for multi-core micros or FPGA's (like AVR's and pre-pros). Indeed sensitive low power analog is usually powered by low drop out linear regulators. The aspect that a linear supply has for a power amp is that it is generally NOT regulated and you can get asway with that for a power stage, but not for a low signal analog stage. I agree that traditionally A / AB power amps have used linear supplies (think heavy), but I would think that is not true for Class D amps like the PA-1. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Oct 27, 2020 23:10:03 GMT -5
This is a no win discussion. Why do you own audio equipment? Why do you care what is inside the box? Do you like the sound quality at the price you paid for it? I get the aspects of resale value and aesthetics, but those attributes don't effect the sound quality (unless you are guided by psycho-acoustic effects). Quality and reliability are both perceived and real. If a piece of equipment "looks good" one thinks that it has a higher quality, but that is not always true. If a piece of equipment fails, and many of the same model fail, then it is of poor quality. If you have a piece of equipment and it fails, your conclusion is that it is of poor quality, but even a $100K+ piece of equipment fails. No one has absolute quality. BTW - I have not read any posts on this forum that attribute a failure to an SMPS in Emotiva's equipment, certainly not any higher failure rate than a conventional linear power supply. Virtually all electronics today are powered by switch mode power supplies for the reasons Lonnie mentioned. I had the SMPS in my UMC-200 fail, I replaced 2 small capacitors as per Emotiva’s suggestion to get the system working while they sent me another power supply board. Following that I have serviced 5 x UMC-200 with exactly the same failures as mine. Recently I had the same problem with 2 x small capacitors in my XSP-1. Once again Emotiva Technical provided me with the necessary instructions and the source of the appropriate capacitors. In all of these occasions I have posted the issues and solutions on here. Cheers Gary |
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