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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2020 13:04:31 GMT -5
Thanks for chiming in....... The reason Parasound is being contrasted is because I owned both. I've owned XPA Gen 3 amps in non and in DR series from Emotiva. Also I've owned Parasound. Seems like these two amps are often contrasted as people have a difficult time justifying the price difference: forum.audiogon.com/discussions/parasound-a23-vs-emotiva-xpa-dr2First, I don't even know where I got that under 30 amps of output from. Going back through Emotiva's website I don't see the specs on amperage now. The Parasound, however, has the spec clearly stated as 60 amps per channel: parasound.com/a31.phpWhile I realize it's not just about the amp when listening downstream of the speakers but just as important are speakers that may "tell the tale" or *bleep* and moan bout the components upstream. From what I glean some don't, Radio shack Technique speakers will sound like crap no matter what's upstream. Don't get me wrong, I'm not interested in arguing with others as to which is better because I'm already convinced the Parasound fidelity was night and day better in contrast etc. I was mainly interested in an explanation of why 30 amps output compared to 180 amps? But now, I can't find the source that I remembered. Perhaps it's not in Emotiva's best interest to publish such spec? Parasound's power supply for both the JC1 A21 and A31:  To be fair, it might not even be apples to apples. I mean the Emotiva DR3 costs round 2000 while the Parasound Halo A31 round 3200. While I enjoyed Lonnie's video I was just curious as to my above question regarding power output. He made a claim and the burden of proof doesn't rest on my shoulders. I'm curious what the difference is between a Emotiva DR-1 and Parasound A31, myself I cannot afford either of those amps but it's only a $1200 difference between them new doesn't seem crazy, I know audiobill rains down holy hell on the Emotiva stuff all the time but not all of us can afford the likes of McIntosh, Krell, Bryston and even Parasound. I have seen a lot of hatred towards Emotiva gear on many different forums from individuals who obviously have more expensive gear, I actually responded to a thread one time where a guy had a budget so I recommended an Emotiva amp as it fit his price range on what he had to spend and I almost got blasted out of the virtual room from people that also suggested amps like 3 times his budget haha, like really ? it made no sense. Would something like the Gen 1 or 2 XPA-1 amps be better suited towards the Tekton's you have ? I know they are pure class a/b, I hear many talk about how they preferred the previous gen's to the new Gen 3 stuff, either way if the Parasound is what works for you than that's awesome, but I will say you haven't tried those $185,000 monblocks yet so you don't know what you are missing hahahahaha. I guess perhaps maybe electronics differ but I have heard very expensive speakers and was never wowed more than what I had owned at the time so I don't always believ in more money equals more better, it can and it can't. One thing I have always found interesting is yes recording studios will use a higher quality XLR cable for example, but I see these ads for 1m XLR cables costing more than my entire system and I think they didn't need those to record the music so why would one need it to playback the music, but I guess if one owns $200,000 amps and $150,000 speakers than they need $20,000 cables to justify it haha, Monoprice cables just won't do  Chad Thought you may enjoy this article w/ fancy graphs on the Parasound A21 which is identical to the A31 fidelity wise. I just love it when an amp exceeds the specs given by the manufacturer on the test bench. Note the power down to 2 ohms. At this point I'm wondering whether my question has been answered now as to why the Parasound had greater fidelity in the mid bass to treble region than the Emotivas XPA Gen 3 5 channel and DR3 series amp. That is, given the power output at 2 ohms where my speakers dip in the midbass region. No doubt that "primitive" power supply of the Parasound has the brute force to supply whatever is needed on at least this side of 2 ohms: www.stereophile.com/content/parasound-halo-21-power-amplifier-measurements"Parasound specifies the A 21+ as delivering 300W into 8 ohms (24.8dBW) with both channels driven and 500W into 4 ohms (24dBW). Using our definition of clipping, which is when the output's percentage of THD+noise reaches 1%, the Parasound easily exceeded its specified powers with both channels driven with a 1kHz signal. It clipped at 400Wpc into 8 ohms (26dBW, fig.4) and at 620Wpc into 4 ohms (24.9dBW, fig.5). The maximum power into 2 ohms with one channel driven was 900W (23.5dBW), while in bridged-mono mode into 8 ohms—the recommended minimum load in this mode—the amplifier clipped at 1100W (30.4dBW)." Fig.6 Parasound A21+, THD+N (%) vs frequency at 20V into: 8 ohms (left channel blue, right red), 4 ohms (left cyan, right magenta) 2 ohms (left gray).  |
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Post by KeithL on Oct 30, 2020 14:52:11 GMT -5
Thank you... And, just for the record, my views do generally agree with those of the company... especially when it comes to audio engineering. But that's mostly because, based on my engineering experience, I usually agree with the important decisions our engineers make.
However, in the real world, none of us can actually claim to be "perfectly neutral and objective"....
Would you suggest that anyone who likes linear power supplies is "a shill for the heavy transformer industry"? Or perhaps everyone who already owns an amplifier with a linear power supply is simply trying to rationalize their decision to buy it? You wouldn't want to risk being made to feel silly if the one that's fifty pounds lighter, and two grand cheaper, was actually better, right? (Or maybe you can accept that it was a good idea at the time, and still works just fine, but things change.... )
Even your favorite reviewer or magazine cannot claim to be truly neutral... For one thing they make their living, one way or another, from their advertisers...
And they also make their living by providing "interesting information", and in order to do so, they must encourage "discussion and debate"... If they didn't there would be nothing to talk about... or write about... or make videos about...
You will never find an audio magazine saying: "This product is so good you shouldn't listen to anything else... so you can stop reading now".
And I promise you will never hear a YouTube review that ends with: "That's all I have to say... so DON'T bother to tune in tomorrow..."
The reality is that nothing is as simple as it seems... Linear power supplies and SMPS both have certain advantages and disadvantages... SMPS do make more high frequency noise, which must be taken into consideration, and which can find its way back into the line... And that high frequency noise can be tricky - but it's also easier to filter using smaller and lighter parts...
But those big iron transformers make a lot more low frequency electromagnetic noise (hum)... And one of the benefits of toroidal transformers is that they radiate less of that nasty electromagnetic noise than the older square-core designs. But those solid state rectifiers also make some noise...
There is also the little matter of context... If you're really concerned about the noise that SMPS generate then you've already lost the battle... Every LED bulb in your home has a tiny SMPS in it... (They're tiny but there are an awful lot of them...)
Ditto for most of your appliances... And for the chargers that go with at least half of your portable devices... And fluorescent bulbs, and CF types, were often much worse... Fluorescent bulbs actually have a live electrical arc inside them...
(If you want to avoid "switchers" entirely you need to go back to incandescent bulbs... )
And then we need to remember devices whose JOB is to broadcast noise.
In terms of audio, the radio frequencies used by your cordless phone, cell phone, and WiFi network are the worst possible type of "RF noise".
(Luckily the designers of most modern gear are aware of this and so design their gear to be at least somewhat tolerant of it.) Almost every amplifier design sounds a tiny bit different... And many of us have a personal preference for one or another particular model... But I really see no way to figure out "who's right" there...
Thanks, tchaik, agree. Then I think perhaps his views could be explicitly presented as less than neutral and objective with an appropriate disclaimer. Perhaps something like a tagline such as : "These represent the views and opinions of the Company and your experience may very well differ" ? Best, |
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Post by Lonnie on Oct 30, 2020 15:28:54 GMT -5
There was a grin and smile behind Lonnie's expression when he lifted that huge power horse of a transformer probably think'n, "they're admiring my rippling biceps". At first, certainly, most modern Millennials would object from a labor industry stand point of making Lonnie lift such heavy equipment as was back in the days. Kinda J/king, but most impressive nonetheless. Would of payed if Lonnie busted a bodybuilding pose. Here I am thinking I was in great shape. But years of sitting in front of and "entertaining" new technology and not lifting heavy objects such as those big old mean nasty transformers has me now looking like a gurly man. The only evidence I have from back in the day when weighing in at 185 lbs and bench pressing 435 lbs is a picture poolside w/ my daughter:  Betcha Lonnie could curl me now. Not that I want to be spooned by an Emotiva guy. I might reconsider though if ya have the brute force and power of Parasound's Halo designer John Curl. Lonnie, if you're listening, go back to the old transformers my friend as you wont regret keeping up your impressive physique in that Emotiva shirt and health overall. Live long and prosper [Shalom], William Well, I'm old now and certainly not as strong as I used to be but I do try. Hey, it's never to late to get back in the gym. It is a great way to start the day.  Thanks for the kind words. Lonnie |
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Post by Lonnie on Oct 30, 2020 15:35:26 GMT -5
Full AP capture screenshot. First time using new video capture software on Joe Sr.'s AP computer. Need to adjust the capture window better in future videos. Please, if you have time entertain my lack of trust for others w/ fancy graphs and datasheets. Could you interpret that graph for me like a 4 yr old? I have no idea what those lines are meaning to convey. You or anyone that is. Don't mean to put anyone on the spot. I mean, I often hear things and people suggest "this is what you hear" and I'm like okay. The red line is the ground floor noise of the Gen 1 XPA-2 amp. That is to say, with no audio going through the amp, this is a spectrum analysis of the audio range. You see all amps make a bit of noise, in this case the the Gen 1 noise floor is 80db down from 0db. The blue line is the new Gen 3 noise floor which is right about 100db down from 0db. So it is considerably quieter in operation. Hope this helps. Lonnie |
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Post by Lonnie on Oct 30, 2020 15:37:36 GMT -5
-80db because it uses “a big transformer” or weak design? Because it uses a big transformer. You cannot get around it if you use a transformer. Lonnie |
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Post by Lonnie on Oct 30, 2020 15:46:37 GMT -5
-80db because it uses “a big transformer” or weak design? Findings are based on the questions we ask? If so, I'm really curious as to why the Emotiva sounded harsh and "transistor like" espcially in the midbass region when contrasted to Parasound. My speakers dip to 2.3 ohms in that region. I mean I keep hearing of the theoretical necessary output achieved by other designs but the overall resulting satisfaction makes me question theory. I see the XPA Gen 3 overall output is less than 30 amps compared to Parasound's 180 amp output. That is, when contrasting the XPA DR3 to the Halo A31. I'm told the Emotiva DR has plenty of theoretical output in response. Makes me struggle to articulate a question in which I convey whether the character of sound can be measured? OK, so what you are referring to here is a completely different thing. Where Parasound comes up with the 180 amp output current I have no idea. There is no test for this and even if there was, it wouldn't matter. The amount of current an amplifier puts out is based on the load. For example, a 1000 watt amplifier connected to an 8ohm load is putting out 11.8 amps of current. The same 1000 watt amp driving a 4 ohm load is putting out 15.81 amps of current. Doesn't matter who's amp it is or how it's designed, if it can produce 1000 watts into the load, that is how much current is passing. Lonnie |
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Post by Lonnie on Oct 30, 2020 15:49:29 GMT -5
I own the DR-1's as well as the XPA-1's Gen 2. By any measure the DR-1s are dramatically quieter, not even close and to my ears they also perform better, or as most audiophiles like to state they sound better. I've also owned Krell amps, Arcam, InnerSound (made and designed by Coda, PS Audio, Adcom and others. While I've not made direct comparisons with all of these other products, I also do not feel I'm suffering some sort of audio loss or lack of performance by using Emotiva products either. If anything my system currently sounds better than it ever has and given my speakers which have a very low impedance and are difficult to drive makes for a potent statement. I have no idea what's going on between the Parasound vs the Emotiva amps. It could be explained by a number of things not the least of which is an individuals preference for what they believe makes good sound at a particular time and place. And these things will change over time. I know mine have. Like any hobby most of us will develop and hone our listening skills over time and lets us not forget some people adore tubes, some SS, some love digital while others will only listen to vinyl. Musical taste vary as well as prediclicitions for what makes great sound. Few hobbies and industries if any have generated as much animosity as audiophilia-nervosa and there appears to be no signs of it ever abating. The endless snarky comments within this hobby based upon an individuals own superiority complexes of what ever gear they are currently tied into is quite frankly tiresome and solves nothing or makes for a meaningful discussion. Case in point, there are people on this forum whose outspoken opinions I almost never agree with based upon my own experiences and preferences. It doesn't end there either, amazingly people will have extreme negative comments about gear they have never ever experienced directly, based upon what they assume is best. I for one appreciated Lonnies video, but would have preferred if he extrapolated on some of the disign and perhaps provided yet even more meaningful measurements. I do plan to do more videos on the design of the gear, I'm just leading up to it in small bits. I figure it's better to do it in steps vs. some long drawn out thing like a college professor. Lonnie |
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Post by audiobill on Oct 30, 2020 16:03:01 GMT -5
-80db because it uses “a big transformer” or weak design? Because it uses a big transformer. You cannot get around it if you use a transformer. Lonnie Thanks, lonnie. But just for the record here's what Stereophile had to say about the McIntosh MC275, a (gasp!) vacuum tube amplifier with honking big transformers: "The measurements gave 100.2 and 101dB. It's hard to believe that this amplifier was designed in 1961!" Many ways to skin the cat, I guess..... |
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Post by Lonnie on Oct 30, 2020 16:04:21 GMT -5
I really like Lonnie and respect him as a chief designer. But IMO it seems that he needs to justify why Emotiva moved from LPS to SPS. To be honest I don’t really care what type of power supply an amplifier uses but it needs to sound better than what I currently have to make the upgrade. I tried several SPS based amps and so far I couldn’t find any I like. The ideal for Emotiva would be to offer several presentations so their amps will sound “different” to each other instead of “better” so everybody will be happy. Here is the thing and I hoped I had conveyed this in the video, but I guess not. The quality of the audio stage is only as good as the power supply feeding it. That is to say, you can design the best audio stage ever thought of, but if the power supply has a lot of ripple or noise, it won't perform or sound good. The information I was trying to convey is simply this. We spent the time and money to develop a very high power switching power supply because it performs better and overall makes the audio stage better. Better in several areas. First is lower noise floor, so the amps are quieter. SMPS are many times faster than a transformer, so the power supply has virtually no ripple or dip when hitting dynamic peaks. Efficiency is vastly improved, so less heat (all the parts last longer), world wide compliance and on and on. Hey we didn't have to spend the time or the money to do, we had transformer design down and they were easy. But designing a switching power supply for a big amp was the proper thing to do to give our customers a better product. Lonnie |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2020 16:27:51 GMT -5
I just think it is so cool that Lonnie took the time to address responses.
Awesome.
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Post by Lonnie on Oct 30, 2020 16:31:59 GMT -5
I just think it is so cool that Lonnie took the time to address responses. Awesome. I try. I just don't have as much time to spend here as I used too. Lonnie |
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Post by Gary Cook on Oct 30, 2020 17:00:42 GMT -5
The vast majority of "Hi-End" audio is powered with linear power supplies, not SMPS. If we are talking power amplifiers then you are quite likely correct. But sources and preamps are more commonly powered by an SMPS these days. For the very reasons that Lonnie explained. Also due to the different voltages utilised around the world an SMPS is a much more efficient solution compared to multiple transformer windings. Cheers Gary |
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Post by tchaik on Oct 30, 2020 22:45:34 GMT -5
I own the DR-1's as well as the XPA-1's Gen 2. By any measure the DR-1s are dramatically quieter, not even close and to my ears they also perform better, or as most audiophiles like to state they sound better. I've also owned Krell amps, Arcam, InnerSound (made and designed by Coda, PS Audio, Adcom and others. While I've not made direct comparisons with all of these other products, I also do not feel I'm suffering some sort of audio loss or lack of performance by using Emotiva products either. If anything my system currently sounds better than it ever has and given my speakers which have a very low impedance and are difficult to drive makes for a potent statement. I have no idea what's going on between the Parasound vs the Emotiva amps. It could be explained by a number of things not the least of which is an individuals preference for what they believe makes good sound at a particular time and place. And these things will change over time. I know mine have. Like any hobby most of us will develop and hone our listening skills over time and lets us not forget some people adore tubes, some SS, some love digital while others will only listen to vinyl. Musical taste vary as well as prediclicitions for what makes great sound. Few hobbies and industries if any have generated as much animosity as audiophilia-nervosa and there appears to be no signs of it ever abating. The endless snarky comments within this hobby based upon an individuals own superiority complexes of what ever gear they are currently tied into is quite frankly tiresome and solves nothing or makes for a meaningful discussion. Case in point, there are people on this forum whose outspoken opinions I almost never agree with based upon my own experiences and preferences. It doesn't end there either, amazingly people will have extreme negative comments about gear they have never ever experienced directly, based upon what they assume is best. I for one appreciated Lonnies video, but would have preferred if he extrapolated on some of the disign and perhaps provided yet even more meaningful measurements. I do plan to do more videos on the design of the gear, I'm just leading up to it in small bits. I figure it's better to do it in steps vs. some long drawn out thing like a college professor. Lonnie Hey!!!!!! what's wrong with being a college professor?  ?   |
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Post by chops on Oct 31, 2020 7:40:52 GMT -5
Hello Lonnie. Thanks for taking the time to chime in here. I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say we greatly appreciate your input. Now I'm not anti-SMPS, and yes, 90% of electronics today use them (audio and non-audio related). I understand that. I feel that your statements of lower noise floor and fast response times are strictly from lab measurements. Computers and software see and hear a lot more things than humans can, so sometimes some measurements have to be taken with a grain of salt. Sure, SMPS have a lower noise floor. In Emotiva's case, -100 dB vs -80 dB. The thing is, the typical noise floor of an average room is around 40 to 50 dB. So in the real world, Emotiva's linear PS amps are dead silent and would be indistinguishable from their new SMPS amps. I know this because I have an XPA-2 Gen 2 and my brother has an XPA-DR2, and both are in fact dead silent. And in fact, the room my system is in is much quieter than his. And as audiobill stated (and I've read this as well a long time ago when I had some McIntosh gear), a 59 year old MC275 tube amplifier was rated and measured at -101 dB, and tube amps are notorious for being noisy compared to SS amps. Not always the case however. SMPS are many times faster than transformers (linear PS), but again, in the real world with music, I really don't think you would hear a difference. Amplifier transformers and electricity react a LOT faster than musicians and instruments do, so this shouldn't be an issue for any decent amplifier of either design. I think what a lot of peoples issues are with the new Gen 3 amps is that they can sound more lean, dry and "in your face" than the previous models. Obviously, the new lineup is entirely redesigned, including the input stage and output stage, so something in the voicing of the new amps is what's the root of the issues with the people and these new SMPS amps. Even though I have never heard my brother's DR2 amp in my system, I have heard about five different pairs of speakers in his system with that amp. I also heard all of those same speakers in his system when he was using a Roksan Caspian amplifier. One thing that stands out on all of those speakers with the DR2 is a slight dryness to the sound. And yes, of course the gear upstream has a lot of influence on the sound, but all of his gear and cabling has a tendency to lean towards the warm side of neutral, so that dryness is coming from the DR2 alone. The Roksan had a natural, full, inviting sound. The DR2 puts everything just a little bit more "in your face" with a bit of dryness. Even my brother acknowledges this and says the XPA-2 Gen 2 is a lot like the Roksan amp in that regard (a while back he had two XPA-2 Gen 2 as monoblocks in his), and I agree since I had that Roksan amp in my system as well for a while which I replaced with the Gen 2. With that being said, he really does like the DR2 and likes the overall sound he's getting with it in his system. |
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Post by Lonnie on Oct 31, 2020 13:17:08 GMT -5
I do plan to do more videos on the design of the gear, I'm just leading up to it in small bits. I figure it's better to do it in steps vs. some long drawn out thing like a college professor. Lonnie Hey!!!!!! what's wrong with being a college professor? ? Not one thing. I have a great deal of respect for professors. Lonnie |
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Post by routlaw on Oct 31, 2020 13:46:49 GMT -5
Hello Lonnie. Thanks for taking the time to chime in here. I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say we greatly appreciate your input. Sure, SMPS have a lower noise floor. In Emotiva's case, -100 dB vs -80 dB. The thing is, the typical noise floor of an average room is around 40 to 50 dB. So in the real world, Emotiva's linear PS amps are dead silent and would be indistinguishable from their new SMPS amps. I know this because I have an XPA-2 Gen 2 and my brother has an XPA-DR2, and both are in fact dead silent. And in fact, the room my system is in is much quieter than his. And as audiobill stated (and I've read this as well a long time ago when I had some McIntosh gear), a 59 year old MC275 tube amplifier was rated and measured at -101 dB, and tube amps are notorious for being noisy compared to SS amps. Not always the case however. SMPS are many times faster than transformers (linear PS), but again, in the real world with music, I really don't think you would hear a difference. Amplifier transformers and electricity react a LOT faster than musicians and instruments do, so this shouldn't be an issue for any decent amplifier of either design. I think what a lot of peoples issues are with the new Gen 3 amps is that they can sound more lean, dry and "in your face" than the previous models. Sorry I don't agree with some of your comments. As stated in my initial post, page 1 of this thread, I have the DR-1's as well as a DR-3 and also own the XPA-1's and by any listening measure the new DR series of amps are noticeably quieter in my room. There is no transformer hum/buzz with the Gen 3 amps, but there certainly is with the Gen 2 series and one can easily hear the noise generated at the speaker level with the Gen 2 amps. Don't get me wrong I totally enjoyed the Gen 2 amps while they were installed and think they sound fine, but to my ears the Gen 3 amps are on a different level. Not agreeing with your comments regarding the speed of these newer amps either. Anecdotally one of the first comments from an old friend who was very familiar with my setup stated these amps sure are a lost faster. I concur. Not sure why you are not hearing it that way, speakers perhaps? I find the new Gen 3 amps to be neutral, yet dynamic, but certainly not dry and in your face. Music is conveyed with more texture, nuance and timbre with these amps in the system versus anything else I have had in there and its been a lot of different amps over the years all with big honking transformers except one. The sound is clean, clear, transparent and precise for sure but I wouldn't confuse that with dry. Not trying to be denigrating here, just have not had the same listing experience you are describing with the Gen 3 amps. Thanks |
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Post by Lonnie on Oct 31, 2020 13:52:19 GMT -5
Hello Lonnie. Thanks for taking the time to chime in here. I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say we greatly appreciate your input. Now I'm not anti-SMPS, and yes, 90% of electronics today use them (audio and non-audio related). I understand that. I feel that your statements of lower noise floor and fast response times are strictly from lab measurements. Computers and software see and hear a lot more things than humans can, so sometimes some measurements have to be taken with a grain of salt. Sure, SMPS have a lower noise floor. In Emotiva's case, -100 dB vs -80 dB. The thing is, the typical noise floor of an average room is around 40 to 50 dB. So in the real world, Emotiva's linear PS amps are dead silent and would be indistinguishable from their new SMPS amps. I know this because I have an XPA-2 Gen 2 and my brother has an XPA-DR2, and both are in fact dead silent. And in fact, the room my system is in is much quieter than his. And as audiobill stated (and I've read this as well a long time ago when I had some McIntosh gear), a 59 year old MC275 tube amplifier was rated and measured at -101 dB, and tube amps are notorious for being noisy compared to SS amps. Not always the case however. SMPS are many times faster than transformers (linear PS), but again, in the real world with music, I really don't think you would hear a difference. Amplifier transformers and electricity react a LOT faster than musicians and instruments do, so this shouldn't be an issue for any decent amplifier of either design. I think what a lot of peoples issues are with the new Gen 3 amps is that they can sound more lean, dry and "in your face" than the previous models. Obviously, the new lineup is entirely redesigned, including the input stage and output stage, so something in the voicing of the new amps is what's the root of the issues with the people and these new SMPS amps. Even though I have never heard my brother's DR2 amp in my system, I have heard about five different pairs of speakers in his system with that amp. I also heard all of those same speakers in his system when he was using a Roksan Caspian amplifier. One thing that stands out on all of those speakers with the DR2 is a slight dryness to the sound. And yes, of course the gear upstream has a lot of influence on the sound, but all of his gear and cabling has a tendency to lean towards the warm side of neutral, so that dryness is coming from the DR2 alone. The Roksan had a natural, full, inviting sound. The DR2 puts everything just a little bit more "in your face" with a bit of dryness. Even my brother acknowledges this and says the XPA-2 Gen 2 is a lot like the Roksan amp in that regard (a while back he had two XPA-2 Gen 2 as monoblocks in his), and I agree since I had that Roksan amp in my system as well for a while which I replaced with the Gen 2. With that being said, he really does like the DR2 and likes the overall sound he's getting with it in his system. Chops, Great feedback and very much appreciated. I completely agree with you about the two power supplies being indistinguishable in the real world. You are 100% correct. Just like a S/N ratio of 100db vs. 110db. The room noise is the limiting factor here and you won’t hear a difference. It is no different from a lot of specs these days. A properly designed piece of gear will not be the limiting factor to what you hear. But on a daily basis we have people calling in because they have been anguishing over a spec they saw from some other manufacterer that is a few db different in one way or another. So while it won’t make a difference in what they hear, there is a good percentage of people that put a lot of stock in the numbers. To that end, we work hard to design and build solid gear with really good specs (which we back up with real data). Now the way an amplifier, pre-amp or whatever sounds is a whole different thing. The core design of all our amps is one that was developed roughly 15 years ago and was or is used in the Gen 1, Gen 2 and Gen 3 models. The big difference between the Gen1 or 2 and the current Gen 3 is obviously the power supply and the main amp stage is now Class H ( or rather a modern day version of our first amp the MPS). Our first amps were class H but we went to Class A/B because they were lower in cost and easier to build. The current Gen 3 is a modern iteration of the original MPS. Modular in design, Class H drive stage and such. However, the core part of the amplifier stage is Class A/B just like the Gen 1 and 2. Where the Class H comes into play is in how the power from the power supply is delivered to the main output transistors. Rather than just connecting the main output transistors directly to the high power rails, we employ a variable control system that feeds the main output transistors a bit more than what they need to. That way the audio stage is running at it’s maximum efficiency. Now if they sound lean or dry, that would most likely be from the dual differential, which is actually the input stage of the amp. The current sources that power the dual diff are cross linked so they stay in perfect balance at all times, but there is a current control and if we were to increase this a little, it would most likely fatten up the sound. As we developed new generations, we try to keep the sonic signature the same from gen to gen, but it really doesn’t take much to slightly shift how something sounds. So I will look into this. Lonnie |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2020 14:23:17 GMT -5
Hello Lonnie. Thanks for taking the time to chime in here. I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say we greatly appreciate your input. Now I'm not anti-SMPS, and yes, 90% of electronics today use them (audio and non-audio related). I understand that. I feel that your statements of lower noise floor and fast response times are strictly from lab measurements. Computers and software see and hear a lot more things than humans can, so sometimes some measurements have to be taken with a grain of salt. Sure, SMPS have a lower noise floor. In Emotiva's case, -100 dB vs -80 dB. The thing is, the typical noise floor of an average room is around 40 to 50 dB. So in the real world, Emotiva's linear PS amps are dead silent and would be indistinguishable from their new SMPS amps. I know this because I have an XPA-2 Gen 2 and my brother has an XPA-DR2, and both are in fact dead silent. And in fact, the room my system is in is much quieter than his. And as audiobill stated (and I've read this as well a long time ago when I had some McIntosh gear), a 59 year old MC275 tube amplifier was rated and measured at -101 dB, and tube amps are notorious for being noisy compared to SS amps. Not always the case however. SMPS are many times faster than transformers (linear PS), but again, in the real world with music, I really don't think you would hear a difference. Amplifier transformers and electricity react a LOT faster than musicians and instruments do, so this shouldn't be an issue for any decent amplifier of either design. I think what a lot of peoples issues are with the new Gen 3 amps is that they can sound more lean, dry and "in your face" than the previous models. Obviously, the new lineup is entirely redesigned, including the input stage and output stage, so something in the voicing of the new amps is what's the root of the issues with the people and these new SMPS amps. Even though I have never heard my brother's DR2 amp in my system, I have heard about five different pairs of speakers in his system with that amp. I also heard all of those same speakers in his system when he was using a Roksan Caspian amplifier. One thing that stands out on all of those speakers with the DR2 is a slight dryness to the sound. And yes, of course the gear upstream has a lot of influence on the sound, but all of his gear and cabling has a tendency to lean towards the warm side of neutral, so that dryness is coming from the DR2 alone. The Roksan had a natural, full, inviting sound. The DR2 puts everything just a little bit more "in your face" with a bit of dryness. Even my brother acknowledges this and says the XPA-2 Gen 2 is a lot like the Roksan amp in that regard (a while back he had two XPA-2 Gen 2 as monoblocks in his), and I agree since I had that Roksan amp in my system as well for a while which I replaced with the Gen 2. With that being said, he really does like the DR2 and likes the overall sound he's getting with it in his system. Chops, Great feedback and very much appreciated. I completely agree with you about the two power supplies being indistinguishable in the real world. You are 100% correct. Just like a S/N ratio of 100db vs. 110db. The room noise is the limiting factor here and you won’t hear a difference. It is no different from a lot of specs these days. A properly designed piece of gear will not be the limiting factor to what you hear. But on a daily basis we have people calling in because they have been anguishing over a spec they saw from some other manufacterer that is a few db different in one way or another. So while it won’t make a difference in what they hear, there is a good percentage of people that put a lot of stock in the numbers. To that end, we work hard to design and build solid gear with really good specs (which we back up with real data). Now the way an amplifier, pre-amp or whatever sounds is a whole different thing. The core design of all our amps is one that was developed roughly 15 years ago and was or is used in the Gen 1, Gen 2 and Gen 3 models. The big difference between the Gen1 or 2 and the current Gen 3 is obviously the power supply and the main amp stage is now Class H ( or rather a modern day version of our first amp the MPS). Our first amps were class H but we went to Class A/B because they were lower in cost and easier to build. The current Gen 3 is a modern iteration of the original MPS. Modular in design, Class H drive stage and such. However, the core part of the amplifier stage is Class A/B just like the Gen 1 and 2. Where the Class H comes into play is in how the power from the power supply is delivered to the main output transistors. Rather than just connecting the main output transistors directly to the high power rails, we employ a variable control system that feeds the main output transistors a bit more than what they need to. That way the audio stage is running at it’s maximum efficiency. Now if they sound lean or dry, that would most likely be from the dual differential, which is actually the input stage of the amp. The current sources that power the dual diff are cross linked so they stay in perfect balance at all times, but there is a current control and if we were to increase this a little, it would most likely fatten up the sound. As we developed new generations, we try to keep the sonic signature the same from gen to gen, but it really doesn’t take much to slightly shift how something sounds. So I will look into this. Lonnie Lonnie, may I ask you a question that has reared frequently as there seemingly is conflicting information given. Sorry to derail for a moment. The XPA Gen 3 amp have the XLR pins reversed input wise ....... The question is whether Emotiva reverses the pins in order to compensate for internal inversion? For clarification: Pin1=SHIELD, Pin3=HOT/POSITIVE, Pin2=COLD/NEGATIVE. In other words say the source AV device has Pin 3 negative and pin 2 hot and then the signal goes into the amp where the input is pin 3 hot and pin 2 negative. The signal is then inverted through stage(s) so what is the result? Is the absolute polarity maintained from the source out to the amp out [minus anything in between]? If using all Emotiva gear AV device and XPA amps should the speaker wires be reversed from the amp to speakers positive to negative negative to positive in order to maintain absolute polarity? |
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Oct 31, 2020 14:53:47 GMT -5
Chops, Great feedback and very much appreciated. I completely agree with you about the two power supplies being indistinguishable in the real world. You are 100% correct. Just like a S/N ratio of 100db vs. 110db. The room noise is the limiting factor here and you won’t hear a difference. It is no different from a lot of specs these days. A properly designed piece of gear will not be the limiting factor to what you hear. But on a daily basis we have people calling in because they have been anguishing over a spec they saw from some other manufacterer that is a few db different in one way or another. So while it won’t make a difference in what they hear, there is a good percentage of people that put a lot of stock in the numbers. To that end, we work hard to design and build solid gear with really good specs (which we back up with real data). Now the way an amplifier, pre-amp or whatever sounds is a whole different thing. The core design of all our amps is one that was developed roughly 15 years ago and was or is used in the Gen 1, Gen 2 and Gen 3 models. The big difference between the Gen1 or 2 and the current Gen 3 is obviously the power supply and the main amp stage is now Class H ( or rather a modern day version of our first amp the MPS). Our first amps were class H but we went to Class A/B because they were lower in cost and easier to build. The current Gen 3 is a modern iteration of the original MPS. Modular in design, Class H drive stage and such. However, the core part of the amplifier stage is Class A/B just like the Gen 1 and 2. Where the Class H comes into play is in how the power from the power supply is delivered to the main output transistors. Rather than just connecting the main output transistors directly to the high power rails, we employ a variable control system that feeds the main output transistors a bit more than what they need to. That way the audio stage is running at it’s maximum efficiency. Now if they sound lean or dry, that would most likely be from the dual differential, which is actually the input stage of the amp. The current sources that power the dual diff are cross linked so they stay in perfect balance at all times, but there is a current control and if we were to increase this a little, it would most likely fatten up the sound. As we developed new generations, we try to keep the sonic signature the same from gen to gen, but it really doesn’t take much to slightly shift how something sounds. So I will look into this. Lonnie Lonnie, may I ask you a question that has reared frequently as there seemingly is conflicting information given. Sorry to derail for a moment. The XPA Gen 3 amp have the XLR pins reversed input wise ....... The question is whether Emotiva reverses the pins in order to compensate for internal inversion? For clarification: Pin1=SHIELD, Pin3=HOT/POSITIVE, Pin2=COLD/NEGATIVE. In other words say the source AV device has Pin 3 negative and pin 2 hot and then the signal goes into the amp where the input is pin 3 hot and pin 2 negative. The signal is then inverted through stage(s) so what is the result? Is the absolute polarity maintained from the source out to the amp out [minus anything in between]? If using all Emotiva gear AV device and XPA amps should the speaker wires be reversed from the amp to speakers positive to negative negative to positive in order to maintain absolute polarity? That is a good question. A long time ago when we first started building amps (long before the Emotiva days when we designed and built for other companies) the XLR standard followed the European way, which is now considered inverted phase. When the Emotiva amps were released the designs followed what we had done previously. Shortly after that the US standard (what is considered phase normal now) became popular. Internally we had many discussions about switching the amps over but we kept coming back to the same conclusion. If we do, and someone puts a new amp with an older amp, the phase of the system will be mixed and we will have some very upset customers. So we just kept the amps the way they were. It has nothing to do with which way performs better or whether or not the amp stage inverts or anything like that. It all boils down to making sure you can mix any gen of amp and it works. Now if you will give me a minute more, I would like to touch on a couple of other related things. First, your speakers don’t care and will not sound any different either way. A speaker works off of AC signals. That means it moves forwards from the center position and backwards from the center position. It doesn’t care if it moves forward or backwards first and the pressure wave it creates will be the same either way. Second, as long as you use all Emotiva amps, your speakers will be in phase with each other and that is what counts. But if you mix an Emotiva amp with a receiver or someone else’s amp, they may or may not be phase correct to each other. If they aren’t, just reverse the speaker wires on one of the amps and you are good to go. Lonnie |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2020 15:18:17 GMT -5
Lonnie, may I ask you a question that has reared frequently as there seemingly is conflicting information given. Sorry to derail for a moment. The XPA Gen 3 amp have the XLR pins reversed input wise ....... The question is whether Emotiva reverses the pins in order to compensate for internal inversion? For clarification: Pin1=SHIELD, Pin3=HOT/POSITIVE, Pin2=COLD/NEGATIVE. In other words say the source AV device has Pin 3 negative and pin 2 hot and then the signal goes into the amp where the input is pin 3 hot and pin 2 negative. The signal is then inverted through stage(s) so what is the result? Is the absolute polarity maintained from the source out to the amp out [minus anything in between]? If using all Emotiva gear AV device and XPA amps should the speaker wires be reversed from the amp to speakers positive to negative negative to positive in order to maintain absolute polarity? That is a good question. A long time ago when we first started building amps (long before the Emotiva days when we designed and built for other companies) the XLR standard followed the European way, which is now considered inverted phase. When the Emotiva amps were released the designs followed what we had done previously. Shortly after that the US standard (what is considered phase normal now) became popular. Internally we had many discussions about switching the amps over but we kept coming back to the same conclusion. If we do, and someone puts a new amp with an older amp, the phase of the system will be mixed and we will have some very upset customers. So we just kept the amps the way they were. It has nothing to do with which way performs better or whether or not the amp stage inverts or anything like that. It all boils down to making sure you can mix any gen of amp and it works. Now if you will give me a minute more, I would like to touch on a couple of other related things. First, your speakers don’t care and will not sound any different either way. A speaker works off of AC signals. That means it moves forwards from the center position and backwards from the center position. It doesn’t care if it moves forward or backwards first and the pressure wave it creates will be the same either way. Second, as long as you use all Emotiva amps, your speakers will be in phase with each other and that is what counts. But if you mix an Emotiva amp with a receiver or someone else’s amp, they may or may not be phase correct to each other. If they aren’t, just reverse the speaker wires on one of the amps and you are good to go. Lonnie Thank you for the clarification as I was having a difficult time in the beginning setup of my system utilizing active subwoofers w/ their own plate amps and an XPA-Gen 3 amp. To complicate matters more the subwoofers were using unbalanced inputs so I was mixing XLRs and RCAs. The phase issue wasn't really noticeable when high passing the mains and dedicating lows to subwoofers. The issue really reared its head when both mains were full range and subs overlapped the mains. At that time I struggled w/ the bass going away. Much appreciate you once again taking the time to answer. Enjoy, William |
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