KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 8, 2020 13:14:25 GMT -5
I think a significant part of this depends on whether you view Roon as "a device" or "a program running on a computer".
If you view Roon as a separate device - you may expect for it to offer the option of making a full backup of itself.
However, many computer programs offer the option of making backups of only specific things, like the index, or the metadata. This is equivalent to Dirac, or your favorite CAD program, offering an option of "backing up your data" or "backing up your projects".
But, if you want to make a complete backup of everything, they still expect you to use a separate backup program designed for that purpose.
I suspect that, from Roon's point of view, the index and metadata are considered to be "owned by Roon"...
But your music libraryis considered to be an external resource that Roon is merely accessing and managing... This makes sense... especially since your library could reside on different drives, on different computers, and even on multiple networks...
And, in fact, your "library" could include content accessed through a streaming service...
I would personally be inclined to view Roon as a computer program... And even something like a Roon ROC, which may at first appear to be "an appliance", as "a computer with a program preinstalled on it".
Therefore... I would consider the specific backup options the software itself offers... But I would still expect to make my own backups of "the entire computer and data set" using separate backup software.
Roon Backup backs up your local index so the system does not have to re-scan every time it updates. If you wish to back up your library you have to use software in your server, it is not part of Roon. One of the reasons I like using Vortexbox as my server OS is it has a very efficient library backup routine built into it. All I have to do is click a button. Read this (everything ROCK applies to Nucleus) help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/rock-storage-basics so you know where to point your backup software |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 8, 2020 13:15:02 GMT -5
Thank you most kindly, Mark - that IS helpful! I think we've hit the core of the problem klinemj - You have a Windows computer on the network that has your drive mapped. At any time that your Roon app wants to access the data drive, it goes through Windows to do so. For a true NAS drive, the drive hardware generates a static IP address for the drive, and THEN (and only then) can Roon map to the address of the drive. Since I do not (and will not) have any "server computer" online (other than the nucleus), and since the USB drive has no static IP address, the two can't see each other. The ROUTER does have a static IP address, but even if the USB drive is plugged into the router's USB port, the drive itself has no IP address. Unless there is a way (I think that there is through WD software) to get a static IP address for the drive itself, this won't work. Boom |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 8, 2020 13:17:28 GMT -5
I think a significant part of this depends on whether you view Roon as "a device" or "a program running on a computer". If you view Roon as a separate device - you may expect for it to offer the option of making a full backup of itself.
However, many computer programs offer the option of making backups of only specific things, like the index, or the metadata. This is equivalent to Dirac, or your favorite CAD program, offering an option of "backing up your data" or "backing up your projects".
But, if you want to make a complete backup of everything, they still expect you to use a separate backup program designed for that purpose.
I suspect that, from Roon's point of view, the index and metadata are considered to be "owned by Roon"...
But your music libraryis considered to be an external resource that Roon is merely accessing and managing... This makes sense... especially since your library could reside on different drives, on different computers, and even on multiple networks...
And, in fact, your "library" could include content accessed through a streaming service...
I would personally be inclined to view Roon as a computer program... And even something like a Roon ROC, which may at first appear to be "an appliance", as "a computer with a program preinstalled on it".
Therefore... I would consider the specific backup options the software itself offers... But I would still expect to make my own backups of "the entire computer and data set" using separate backup software.
Roon Backup backs up your local index so the system does not have to re-scan every time it updates. If you wish to back up your library you have to use software in your server, it is not part of Roon. One of the reasons I like using Vortexbox as my server OS is it has a very efficient library backup routine built into it. All I have to do is click a button. Read this (everything ROCK applies to Nucleus) help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/rock-storage-basics so you know where to point your backup software Since the ROCK can be downloaded and reinstalled at any time, there's no need to back it up. (Kind of like any computer's OS) All the tweaks and mods one has made to Roon software should be included in the Roon backup. For data (that Roon considers external), one should definitely have a backup independently of Roon. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 8, 2020 13:25:43 GMT -5
I don't know the specifics here... but here's another hint...
When it comes to network shares the EXACT way they are entered is critical... And, unfortunately, different operating systems may use and expect slightly different formats for naming things... This relates to both the operating system your software is running on and the operating system your NAS is using...
So, for example, your NAS may show a certain shared address using forward slashes ("/")... While a certain program, running on a different operating system, may require you to substitute backward slashes when you enter it ("\")... (And it's not going to be recognized unless you get it exactly right...)
This can get very tricky if, for example, your NAS runs on embedded Linux, but you have Roon running on Windows.
The details on when this may or may not happen are somewhat of a grey area...
So your best bet for examples and advice is to look for someone using the same combination as you do.
(And sometimes, when one doesn't work, you just have to try the other permutations...)
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 8, 2020 13:33:24 GMT -5
]Is it shared? Did you add it as a network share? I can not set any attributes to the drive until Roon recognizes it. Since the drive isn't connected to any computer, I can't access it EXCEPT over the network. Perhaps I'm going about this wrong? I've disconnecting the drive from the Router & connected it directly to my computer room MacBook Pro. I opened the information pane for the drive & ENABLED sharing. I'm ejecting it now & will then try network access again. Thanks. You set it as shared outside of Roon using whatever OS is controlling it. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 8, 2020 13:35:01 GMT -5
The ROUTER does have a static IP address, but even if the USB drive is plugged into the router's USB port, the drive itself has no IP address. Unless there is a way (I think that there is through WD software) to get a static IP address for the drive itself, this won't work. Boom This is impossible. All network resources have IP addresses. You need to look inside your NAS or router configuration screen. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 8, 2020 13:40:15 GMT -5
Quite true... however some of the lines can become slightly blurred.
For example I would expect the program to back up (or offer to back up) any metadata you have entered. But does that include things like album covers that have been downloaded automatically? Or should they keep track of metadata that you have entered manually?
(And would you prefer for it to keep your old album covers... or download new and potentially better ones.. or ask which option you prefer?) (Or would you like it to be really smart, look for new album covers, then update only the ones where the new one is better?)
And I would hope for it to save configuration options you have set. But what if, when you reinstall it, using the latest version of ROCK, some of the options you configured have been changed or eliminated? And what if something has changed more radically? For example, if a certain metadata field has been made shorter, then that data will need to be truncated when it is restored to the new version. And, if new metadata fields or configuration options have been added, then they may need to be filled with default values... (And you're not going to be pleased if they inform you that half of your metadata has been discarded "because it doesn't fit the new format".)
This is certainly something they should and can do... But the functional details can get extremely complicated... I think a significant part of this depends on whether you view Roon as "a device" or "a program running on a computer". If you view Roon as a separate device - you may expect for it to offer the option of making a full backup of itself.
However, many computer programs offer the option of making backups of only specific things, like the index, or the metadata. This is equivalent to Dirac, or your favorite CAD program, offering an option of "backing up your data" or "backing up your projects".
But, if you want to make a complete backup of everything, they still expect you to use a separate backup program designed for that purpose.
I suspect that, from Roon's point of view, the index and metadata are considered to be "owned by Roon"...
But your music libraryis considered to be an external resource that Roon is merely accessing and managing... This makes sense... especially since your library could reside on different drives, on different computers, and even on multiple networks...
And, in fact, your "library" could include content accessed through a streaming service...
I would personally be inclined to view Roon as a computer program... And even something like a Roon ROC, which may at first appear to be "an appliance", as "a computer with a program preinstalled on it".
Therefore... I would consider the specific backup options the software itself offers... But I would still expect to make my own backups of "the entire computer and data set" using separate backup software.
Since the ROCK can be downloaded and reinstalled at any time, there's no need to back it up. (Kind of like any computer's OS) All the tweaks and mods one has made to Roon software should be included in the Roon backup. For data (that Roon considers external), one should definitely have a backup independently of Roon. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 8, 2020 13:51:13 GMT -5
This is impossible. All network resources have IP addresses. You need to look inside your NAS or router configuration screen. My drive is not configured as a NAS. It is intended to be connected to a controlling computer via USB. klinemj told me that his USB HDD was connected to a USB port on his router, and that no further controlling computer was needed. But he is mistaken. His Windows computer (where his Roon Core is installed) is mapping and managing his drive, treating it as a USB drive despite the fact that the USB connection is not primarily with his Windows box. In other words, his Windows OS is doing the mapping of his data drive. But without a "controlling computer" on the network, the Roon nucleus can't see the drive UNLESS the drive has a specific IP address that Roon can call. Although my router DOES have a static IP address, the USB drive has none (that I can find). So if the USB drive DOES have a static IP address, it isn't showing up in the router's control screen, on the Mac Mini's information panel (when I have the drive plugged in there), or via the nucleus information panel. I've downloaded a "sniffer" program that's supposed to identify all devices on the network (called Fing for Mac), but it doesn't see the WD drive either. I really don't want to have another computer running all the time (that's what the nucleus was supposed to avoid), nor do I want the data drive on the audio shelf with the nucleus. Are there devices available that will convert a USB drive to a NAS one? Thanks - Boom |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 8, 2020 14:01:06 GMT -5
Yea, you can't just plug a raw USB drive into a router and expect ANYTHING to see it. That's not how they work. You need to connect it to a computer. Plug it into the Nucleus. Or buy a NAS controller.
-edit- it is possible for some routers to create an NAS using the USB port. What is the make/model of your router?
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 8, 2020 14:38:40 GMT -5
BoomzillaJudging from the discussion on your other thread (it would be good to have only one thread where you ask the same questions) you cannot use an Apple Airport Express as an NAS drive. That USB port is only designed to support a printer. You can, however, do so by connecting a USB drive to an Airport Extreme router if you insist on staying with Apple products.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 8, 2020 15:20:54 GMT -5
Great point on the Apple Airport Express. My Asus can create a NAS via the USB. I don't currently have mine configured that way as it's easier to just map the drive and use that for Roon for me.
Mark
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 8, 2020 15:30:13 GMT -5
BoomzillaJudging from the discussion on your other thread (it would be good to have only one thread where you ask the same questions) you cannot use an Apple Airport Express as an NAS drive. That USB port is only designed to support a printer. You can, however, do so by connecting a USB drive to an Airport Extreme router if you insist on staying with Apple products. I've never tried to plug the drive into the AirPort Express - I knew and know that it's a print-server only. I had the drive plugged into a Netgear N450 cable-modem/router, but I never could get it to work. So I just hauled it back to the music room & it works fine there. By the way, for those who don't know, Apple has discontinued ALL their AirPort products. No longer available in any form. Boom |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 8, 2020 16:08:46 GMT -5
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 8, 2020 16:53:32 GMT -5
Thanks most kindly, David - the Cox Cable manual that came with the modem doesn't have the section. And maybe Cox bought a stripped down version of the N450, because the instructions don't work for my drive. |
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Post by LuisV on Dec 8, 2020 17:26:05 GMT -5
The ROUTER does have a static IP address, but even if the USB drive is plugged into the router's USB port, the drive itself has no IP address. Unless there is a way (I think that there is through WD software) to get a static IP address for the drive itself, this won't work. Boom This is impossible. All network resources have IP addresses. You need to look inside your NAS or router configuration screen. Unless is shares it as 192.168.XYZ.123\USB_Drive. The Router UI has to show the share name or IP for the USB drive share. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 8, 2020 17:50:30 GMT -5
FWIW - I spoke to the Roon engineers this afternoon. They concurred that the biggest advantage of the nucleus is that, unlike a typical Windows, Mac, or Linux computer, their OS is designed to minimize clock cycles by NOT running all the normal computer functions in the background. Of course, unless you're running multiple zones / multiple sources, you aren't likely to bog down your CPU even without the nucleus.
As to any musical advantage of the Roon nucleus, provided you're not overloading your CPU, there may be none. But with the "optimized for music" Roon-OS, the nucleus shouldn't be worse than any other server.
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Post by audiobill on Dec 8, 2020 18:30:51 GMT -5
And, with the speed and value of the new MacMini M1, no reason to spend multiples of cost either........
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 8, 2020 19:19:00 GMT -5
Even with the specific instructions from the Netgear manual, it just doesn't work. I think Cox Cable bought a cheaper "made for Cox" version of this Netgear model that eliminated the USB sharing feature (or else mine is broken). In any case, the Roon engineers couldn't offer any fix either, so I'm just going to leave the HDD on the audio rack. |
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Post by wilburthegoose on Dec 8, 2020 20:08:53 GMT -5
It’s much simpler than you describe. Roon is a completely different paradigm. Try this or any number of YouTube videos on Roon Basics. youtu.be/7RZpjkjt3Z4I'm very interested in Roon, but there are so many different configurations I get confused about what is really needed. Warning, what comes next are probably dumb questions, but I've never shied away from asking or from entertaining dumb questions so here it goes... With Roon do you need another software interface like a JRiver to do playlists and searches? Then does this mean you need a separate PC from where Roon resides? What about a streamer? Do you need a separate streamer? Short term I have been contemplating putting Roon on a NUC and connecting to my Cambridge CXN streamer/DAC. Is it that simple? Eventually, I'd like to upgrade my DAC. If I do I am assuming I can just plug the digital out from the CXN and into whatever DAC I'd choose and I keep my streaming capability. Or would the streamer even be needed? Again, sorry about the freshman level questions. |
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Post by wilburthegoose on Dec 8, 2020 20:13:00 GMT -5
Boom. Just plug in a USB hard drive with your music files to the Nucleus. Keep it simple.
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