THE ROON USERS' THREAD

[jra]

Dec 8, 2020 16:53:32 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Dec 8, 2020 16:08:46 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Netgear N450 is a cable modem, but it does allow NAS functions via the USB port. Start at page 75 of the user manual.

www.downloads.netgear.com/files/GDC/CG3000DV2/N450_CG3000Dv2_UM_03Apr2014.pdf

Thanks most kindly, David - the Cox Cable manual that came with the modem doesn't have the section.

And maybe Cox bought a stripped down version of the N450, because the instructions don't work for my drive.

boomzilla - can you give me the *exact* model number of the Cox Cable modem you're using ? I wrote the software that is used on the N450 to share USB drives over SMB (or a lot of it anyway :-) so I'd like to be able to help you get this working. What client are you trying to use to mount the drive - Windows, MacOSX or Linux ?

[Boomzilla]

Hi jra -

THANK YOU for your generous assistance! It's appreciated. The model # is: CG3000DV2
"Netgear Wireless Cable DOCSIS gateway"
CFCGC6 (SSID for wireless - that I don't use)
SN: 3HW138U20128C

I'm trying to mount the drive via Roon-OS (a Linux variant). But Mac OS-X should use similar if not identical path nomenclature?

[wilburthegoose]

Why would you use a drive connected to your router? Just connect it to the Nucleus. You can access its data from a PC or Mac using UNC style notation.

[Boomzilla]

Hi wilburthegoose -

I'm writing a review of the Roon nucleus+. As part of that review, the device is supposed to be able to simultaneously access multiple NAS sources. I'm trying to get that to work, yet I have no "native NAS" drives. Therefore, I'm trying to convert some of my USB drives to NAS.

And just a FYI for Roon users - I've now pulled the power plug on my Roon Library drive about a dozen times without data corruption and without Roon failing to immediately mount it again on the resumption of power. This would argue that Roon Library drives (wherever they may be) need NOT have UPS backup. In my experience, some other players (jRiver, specifically) have not been so sanguine about sudden and unexpected loss of their music libraries.

This is NOT to say that the data on any library drive shouldn't be copied to a different drive in a different physical location. Only to say that Roon may be more robust about communication interruption than other players.

Boomzilla

[klinemj]

Dec 9, 2020 6:57:09 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Hi wilburthegoose -

I'm writing a review of the Roon nucleus+. As part of that review, the device is supposed to be able to simultaneously access multiple NAS sources. I'm trying to get that to work, yet I have no "native NAS" drives. Therefore, I'm trying to convert some of my USB drives to NAS.

And just a FYI for Roon users - I've now pulled the power plug on my Roon Library drive about a dozen times without data corruption and without Roon failing to immediately mount it again on the resumption of power. This would argue that Roon Library drives (wherever they may be) need NOT have UPS backup. In my experience, some other players (jRiver, specifically) have not been so sanguine about sudden and unexpected loss of their music libraries.

This is NOT to say that the data on any library drive shouldn't be copied to a different drive in a different physical location. Only to say that Roon may be more robust about communication interruption than other players.

Boomzilla

I've not had any issue w/Roon losing anything with power outages either (knock on wood).

Mark

[Boomzilla]

The Roon nucleus is an interesting device. It is not intended to be an endpoint. There is no DAC and there are no analog outputs. It is not intended to be a streamer. There are minimal inputs, outputs, controls, etc. It's basically a traffic director (and primarily for audio only) for the home network - kind of like an upscale music router. And so far as I can tell, you don't even need one unless you have a complicated, multi-room ("multi-zone") system. Now it seems that the upside of this limited functionality is that it's supposed to be really good at its one-trick-pony function - tying together multiple sources for multiple destinations. The limitation to that is that you (usually) can't just have a DAC as an endpoint UNLESS the DAC you use has the ability to receive content over Ethernet (or HDMI). Of course, IF your DAC is in close proximity to the nucleus, you can use a USB interface, but if your DAC is, say, at the other end of the house, then you don't need a DAC - you need a streamer (and one that plays nicely with Roon via RAAT).

This isn't the limitation it once was. Now, there are cheap streamers (Raspberry Pi comes to mind) that you can scatter like pollen throughout the house and serve them all from the nucleus. But the number of audiophiles who want or need music everywhere in the house is not a huge number. And of those who DO want multi-room audio, the largest part of that group are technically astute enough to DIY via NUC/ROCK kits.

So where does this leave the Roon nucleus? What demographic, exactly, is the intended market for the device? Does Roon actually sell any of these, or are they hoping somehow that multi-room-music-streaming is the next big fad? I can see it now - the yuppie puppy wanting to stream his USB turntable to everywhere in the palatial condo... Or maybe I just don't get it?

Boom

[wilburthegoose]

I have a self-constructed Nucleus - it's just an Intel NUC running the Roon OS called Rock. Before I built out the NUC, I had Roon Server running on a powerful Windows 10 PC. Some responses to your comments:
* I don't think it's anything like a router. But keep in mind that I'm an InfoSec professional, so I get into the guts of things like routers.
* I do 90% of my listening in my home office while I'm working. The other 10% is on my good system. The NUC had nothing to do with using multiple zones, because the Win10 PC handled multiple systems perfectly.
* The sound quality on the NUC is the same as Win10. Data is data.
* So why did I spent a few hundred $$ on a NUC? Two primary reasons - the biggest is that the NUC/Nucleus is a true appliance - boot it and never worry about it again. The other reason is that I grew weary of having to remote boot my Win10 PC to use Roon.
* Again, a NUC/Nucleus has nothing to do with multi-room audio.
* I happen to use a Raspberry Pi in my home office. It feeds Roon audio to my ancient Denon AVR-4311 via coax S/PDIF.
* There are a ton of endpoints out there that work perfectly. Everything from a Chromecast or AirPlay device to a Raspberry Pi to a $$$ DAC. I happen to use the DAC in my home theater processor.

As to your last question, the multi-room music streaming is NOT the primary benefit of Roon. The advantage is a great user interface, integration with Tidal and/or Qobuz, fantastic metadata, integration with internet radio stations, cover art, "Roon Radio", which isn't radio at all - it's a little like Pandora for your own music collection (Play Ruben Studdard, and you may hear Luther Vandross after the end of the album), and a lot more.   Good writeup on its features:  roonlabs.com/features

I bought a lifetime subscription to Roon, and it's the best music-centered purchase I've ever made.

PS - Really good writeup:  www.jackenhack.com/roon-why-i-switched-and-you-should-too/

[klinemj]

Dec 9, 2020 16:37:30 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

The Roon nucleus is an interesting device. It is not intended to be an endpoint. There is no DAC and there are no analog outputs. It is not intended to be a streamer. There are minimal inputs, outputs, controls, etc. It's basically a traffic director (and primarily for audio only) for the home network - kind of like an upscale music router. And so far as I can tell, you don't even need one unless you have a complicated, multi-room ("multi-zone") system. Now it seems that the upside of this limited functionality is that it's supposed to be really good at its one-trick-pony function - tying together multiple sources for multiple destinations. The limitation to that is that you (usually) can't just have a DAC as an endpoint UNLESS the DAC you use has the ability to receive content over Ethernet (or HDMI). Of course, IF your DAC is in close proximity to the nucleus, you can use a USB interface, but if your DAC is, say, at the other end of the house, then you don't need a DAC - you need a streamer (and one that plays nicely with Roon via RAAT).

This isn't the limitation it once was. Now, there are cheap streamers (Raspberry Pi comes to mind) that you can scatter like pollen throughout the house and serve them all from the nucleus. But the number of audiophiles who want or need music everywhere in the house is not a huge number. And of those who DO want multi-room audio, the largest part of that group are technically astute enough to DIY via NUC/ROCK kits.

So where does this leave the Roon nucleus? What demographic, exactly, is the intended market for the device? Does Roon actually sell any of these, or are they hoping somehow that multi-room-music-streaming is the next big fad? I can see it now - the yuppie puppy wanting to stream his USB turntable to everywhere in the palatial condo... Or maybe I just don't get it?

Boom

Here's my take on it.

First, you are right - it's basically a music router/traffic director...just like any other Roon Core is. It's just another option for what to use as the core. It's a very pricey option to use as the core.

Second, there are a lot of people that want a multi-room solution. I'm one of those and have 12 different zones. Some of mine are Sonos, some are Roon - and I prefer Roon. Roon gives me a better interface and lower entry prices on hardware I use for each zone...which can include things as cheap as a Pi to as pricey as one wants to use. To me, the demographic Roon serves falls into some combination of 3 camps:
1) The people who have 1 room and really like the simplicity of using Roon to stream their CD's, sources like Tidal and Qobuz, access Roon Radio, and use Roon's advanced metadata.
2) People who want a versatile, easy to use multi-room solution that also includes #1.
3) People who want #1 or #2 but don't realize there are many other great, cheaper options as a core or don't have the technical depth to set one up.

Personally, I can't see myself ever buying a Nucleus. My Dell 660 cost me <$300 and works great as my core. I didn't even buy it to use as a core...I had it sitting around doing nothing, so I put it into use as a core. Sure, I do also have the added cost of an external HD I use for storage and the Nuke includes internal storage options for its price...but I use the external HD I tap into for music via Roon as well as for other purposes. Some people seem to think it takes a lot to keep a W10 running, but that's not been my experience. Every W10 machine I have is easy to keep up to date, and my internet security software has kept them all safe. W10, for me, is a completely different world than prior versions of Windows. I only have 1 gripe and that relates to how it handles finding shared drives on a network. Once in a while, an OS update changes 1 critical setting that prevents a PC from seeing a shared drive, so a shared drive suddenly fails to show up. I have learned that if the drive doesn't show up (and my router is powered up), that I just launch the control panel, go to 1 setting I now know by heart, change it, and all is good again. It baffles me that Microsoft would not figure out that's a dumb thing to do and change the default setting on that part. Other than that, I'm a happy camper. (I think they do this to avoid access to shared drives accidentally on networks many people share, but I still think it's dumb.)

Mark

[Boomzilla]

FWIW - Should you use a Virtual Private Network (VPN), it may interfere with TIDAL and/or Qobuz (it did for me). My solution was to turn off the VPN & then everything worked right. Do I really need a VPN? Honestly, I don't think so.

[Boomzilla]

Dec 9, 2020 16:51:12 GMT -5 wilburthegoose said:

I have a self-constructed Nucleus - it's just an Intel NUC running the Roon OS called Rock. Before I built out the NUC, I had Roon Server running on a powerful Windows 10 PC. Some responses to your comments:
* I don't think it's anything like a router. But keep in mind that I'm an InfoSec professional, so I get into the guts of things like routers.
* I do 90% of my listening in my home office while I'm working. The other 10% is on my good system. The NUC had nothing to do with using multiple zones, because the Win10 PC handled multiple systems perfectly.
* The sound quality on the NUC is the same as Win10. Data is data.
* So why did I spent a few hundred $$ on a NUC? Two primary reasons - the biggest is that the NUC/Nucleus is a true appliance - boot it and never worry about it again. The other reason is that I grew weary of having to remote boot my Win10 PC to use Roon.
* Again, a NUC/Nucleus has nothing to do with multi-room audio.
* I happen to use a Raspberry Pi in my home office. It feeds Roon audio to my ancient Denon AVR-4311 via coax S/PDIF.
* There are a ton of endpoints out there that work perfectly. Everything from a Chromecast or AirPlay device to a Raspberry Pi to a $$$ DAC. I happen to use the DAC in my home theater processor.

As to your last question, the multi-room music streaming is NOT the primary benefit of Roon. The advantage is a great user interface, integration with Tidal and/or Qobuz, fantastic metadata, integration with internet radio stations, cover art, "Roon Radio", which isn't radio at all - it's a little like Pandora for your own music collection (Play Ruben Studdard, and you may hear Luther Vandross after the end of the album), and a lot more.   Good writeup on its features:  roonlabs.com/features

I bought a lifetime subscription to Roon, and it's the best music-centered purchase I've ever made.

PS - Really good writeup:  www.jackenhack.com/roon-why-i-switched-and-you-should-too/

Hi wilburthegoose -

The functionality of the nucleus can be had for $500 or less, according to most who have built their own music machines. So there's a HUGE financial cost to buying Roon's "turnkey" nucleus over a NUC/ROCK combo. And even the NUC/ROCK is expensive compared to using any old spare laptop or desktop and running Roon from that. Unless one is using multiple zones with a low powered Roon Core server, the question becomes: Is there any SONIC benefit to using a nucleus, as opposed to using a recycled whatever?

Roon claims that even a NUC/ROCK combo lacks the "tweaking for music" within the hardware that a nucleus provides.

Are there any Lounge members who've heard both? Could you hear any differences? What were they?

Thanks - Boom

[klinemj]

Dec 9, 2020 20:03:18 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

FWIW - Should you use a Virtual Private Network (VPN), it may interfere with TIDAL and/or Qobuz (it did for me). My solution was to turn off the VPN & then everything worked right. Do I really need a VPN? Honestly, I don't think so.

I've toyed with the idea of setting up a VPN, but I don't really need one. I keep kind of wanting to need one, but - I just don't.

Mark

[wilburthegoose]

I do Information Security as a career, and I don't bother with a VPN for home use. But I obviously use a VPN for work-related activities

[KeithL]

If you even have to ask about VPNs then you don't need one.

And using one will definitely cause complications when it comes to getting things to work.

In a home setting a VPN serves two distinct purposes - both related to privacy and security.

1)

It can provide a secure connection between two points - for example between your home computer and a company network.

It keeps other people from hacking into, or even looking at, that traffic.

(This is commonly referred to as "making a secure tunnel".)

2)

It can provide anonymity for shady activities... for example, if you want to download music from an illegal site, a VPN can hide that activity from your ISP, keep people in between from seeing who you are, and possibly even hide your identity from the illegal site at the other end. It does this by setting up a secure connection from your computer to a server somewhere... at which point everyone you connect to sees your connection as coming from that server but can no longer recognize you. (In this context, you are connecting to that remote server using a "secure tunnel", and they are "fronting" for you.)

The catch here is that the software provided by most "VPN services" routes all of your traffic "through the "tunnel".

And some programs won't like that or won't work that way.

Also note that, in most configurations, using a VPN requires encryption, which makes your computer work harder, and so will slow it down.

In big complex systems a VPN can also be configured to reserve bandwidth for specific sorts of traffic.

That feature is called QoS (quality-of-service) ... and is how your cable company keeps your downloads from interfering with your TV viewing.

However, in most home situations, there's no way you're going to be able to get any significant benefit from that feature.

(And it can be really complicated to set up and use.)

Dec 9, 2020 20:03:18 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

FWIW - Should you use a Virtual Private Network (VPN), it may interfere with TIDAL and/or Qobuz (it did for me). My solution was to turn off the VPN & then everything worked right. Do I really need a VPN? Honestly, I don't think so.

[DYohn]

It's not intended to be an endpoint because it IS intended to be a server. You should understand the basic functionality of things before you try to review it, in my opinion.

[Boomzilla]

FYI information about converting an external USB HDD into NAS:

Some devices allow their USB-A sockets to be seen over the Ethernet network - some don't.

I tried the following with the stated results:

Netgear N450 Cable-Modem/Router/Wireless-Router - No connection on the front or the rear USB-A socket
Apple AirPort Express Wireless-Router/Print-Server - No connection on the USB-A socket
Epson WF-7620 printer - USB stick media inserted into the front-panel USB-A socket IS RECOGNIZED over the network as "epson36F634/USBSTORAGE" However, a USB HDD plugged into this socket is NOT recognized over the network.

Since the Epson didn't pan out, I have other Ethernet-connected options with USB-A sockets to try:

Sanyo TV
Samsung TV
Yamaha Blu-Ray player
Emotiva TA100 integrated amplifier
Cox TV modem
Cox Telephone modem
Brother wireless laser printer
Roku 3930X

[Boomzilla]

Dec 10, 2020 14:22:58 GMT -5 DYohn said:

It's not intended to be an endpoint because it IS intended to be a server. You should understand the basic functionality of things before you try to review it, in my opinion.

What "it" are you referring to? The Roon nucleus? I never claimed it was an endpoint.

The definition of a "server" is: A computer or system that provides resources, data, services, or programs to other computers, known as clients, over a network. In theory, whenever computers share resources with client machines they are considered servers.

By that definition, the Roon nucleus IS a server. It is not (and never will be) an endpoint because it lacks a DAC and has zero analog outputs. However, the Roon Nucleus need NOT access clients / endpoints ONLY over Ethernet networking. In fact, it has not one but two HDMI outputs, AND two USB-A sockets, that can ALL access clients / endpoints.

I understand the functionality of the Roon nucleus just fine, thanks, and my understandings have been verified by Roon engineers. At present, my external USB HDD is a Roon client, connected via one of the nucleus' USB ports. My Dragonfly DAC is a Roon endpoint, connected via the other nucleus USB port. Client + Server + Endpoint = Complete Roon network. Done.

Boomzilla

[DYohn]

Sorry, I'm just in a bad mood. But you said "The Roon nucleus is an interesting device. It is not intended to be an endpoint. There is no DAC and there are no analog outputs. It is not intended to be a streamer. It's basically a traffic director (and primarily for audio only) for the home network - kind of like an upscale music router." calling this a limitation. My point is it is not a limitation it is precisely the design function of the device. You did not seem to understand that and wanted it to be something that it is not. Which is foolish if true.

[DYohn]

And by the way the Nucleus + can indeed function as an endpoint even though that is not its intended use. It can output audio via its USB or its HDMI port. In the ROON settings screen click on Audio and look for "Connected to Core" playback devices. Enable one of them and connect to DAC or receiver or whatever.

[Boomzilla]

No problem, amigo - you're allowed a bad mood from time to time (and I definitely AM foolish some times).

And you're right. The Roon nucleus' lack of internal DAC and streamer functionality is an integral part of the design. I only consider it a limitation because I want it do more than it was designed to do. This isn't the fault of Roon, but only the wishlist of a (single) potential customer. So no formal review that I wrote would actually call the Roon nucleus' design a "limitation."

Moving away from the Roon nucleus now - If I were a designer, what features would I want?

A device that could access media (like the Roon nucleus) from both the local network and the internet. The "streamer card" would use open architecture & include all the functionality of the nucleus.
The device would have a modular stereo (or multi-channel) DAC (with open architecture, in hopes of becoming a standard) that could be user-upgraded by third parties.
The device would have a modular preamp (again - like the above)
And the device would have a modular power amp and power supply (like the above)
Multichannel? Add more power supplies to the bus and plug in more amp cards (like Emotiva)

This would be an all-in-one device that could be as simple or as complex as the customer wanted. It could also "grow" with the user's system.

Of course, the economics of this just aren't there or someone would already have made one. But I can wish...

Cheers - Glenn

[DYohn]

See post above.