New Member Hello and Please Help!

[Cowhorn]

Hello, all.

I am hoping to get some honest feedback on a question I've had for a while now. First off my system is a dedicated 2-channel setup on which I play CDs (75%) and vinyl (25%). I listen to rock almost exclusively (Stones, Floyd, Peppers, etc). I have a Schiit Freya+ preamp that I use in the tube stage, a Schiit Modi Multibit DAC, an Emotiva XPA-DR3 amp, Thiel CS 2.3 speakers, and dual SVS SB 2000 Pro subs. My room is 22'W x 30"L x 9'H and has been treated with GIK bass traps and diffusors. My system sounds ok, but not great. I have great clarity but only average soundstage and anemic bass. I tend to listen to my music at 65-75 dB yet still get ear fatigue after only 30-45 minutes.

So...I'm trying to figure out the weak link in my system. I believe it is either the amp or the speakers. I'm eyeing the PS Audio Stellar M1200 to replace the DR3, but before doing that I auditioned some speakers at...easy, now...Best Buy. I listened to the Kef Reference 3 and the Kef Blade 2 and was completely blown away by both of these speakers. What I really liked about them was the incredible 3D, wrap-around, holographic, 'you are really there' soundstage they produced as well as the tremendous palpable bass they put out. What I didn't like about them was the price!

I spoke to to the very knowledgeable manager there and shared with him my thoughts and the issues I am having with my system. He seemed to think that the PS Audio amp would "wake up" my Thiels. I'm not so sure. The Thiels have only a single 9" woofer and an 8" passive radiator, so I doubt they will make that much more bass with a different amp. I have heard great things about the Airmotiv T2+ and may give them a try. Can anyone speak to the quality of the soundstage and bass they put out? Can anyone compare them to the KEF models I mentioned above?

I'd like opinions as to what my next move should be. New amp or new speakers?

Thanks!

[ric4044]

You have to kinda know what it is you're missing. If it lacks bottom end, then try making sure your subs are placed correctly. A few inches to the right or left, or more away or towards the wall will wield all kind of crazy results. You might have to use some sort of calibration tools to get both subs set/placed correctly. 2 of those subs should hit nice and low, even if they are a sealed type sub. Also, never downplay the influence of your electronics on sound. If the sound level is ok just not a great soundstage, you can change the DAC or pre-amp. Easier to play around with the light weight pre-amp and dac than it is to audition and possibly have to return several sets of big speakers. The only thing that matters is how they sound to you at the end of the day. If you go down the speaker replacement line, then go back to best buy and audition some MartinLogan speakers since they have the same type of tweeter setup - this will give you an idea of how they sound and their soundstage. I listened to some KEF bookshelves and then some Martin Logan's (at BestBuy) and I knew I wanted the folded ribbon sound and nothing else. I eventually settled on the T0's.

[Cowhorn]

Jun 23, 2021 13:41:37 GMT -5 ric4044 said:

You have to kinda know what it is you're missing. If it lacks bottom end, then try making sure your subs are placed correctly. A few inches to the right or left, or more away or towards the wall will wield all kind of crazy results. You might have to use some sort of calibration tools to get both subs set/placed correctly. 2 of those subs should hit nice and low, even if they are a sealed type sub. Also, never downplay the influence of your electronics on sound. If the sound level is ok just not a great soundstage, you can change the DAC or pre-amp. Easier to play around with the light weight pre-amp and dac than it is to audition and possibly have to return several sets of big speakers. The only thing that matters is how they sound to you at the end of the day. If you go down the speaker replacement line, then go back to best buy and audition some MartinLogan speakers since they have the same type of tweeter setup - this will give you an idea of how they sound and their soundstage. I listened to some KEF bookshelves and then some Martin Logan's (at BestBuy) and I knew I wanted the folded ribbon sound and nothing else. I eventually settled on the T0's.

Thank you for the reply. 

I put a lot of time and effort into the placement of the subs. I put them in the listening chair and then crawled around the room with my SPL meter, etc, etc. So I believe the subs are well-positioned. Thanks for the DAC/Preamp suggestion. Also, I had a couple of pairs of ML electrostats back in the 90s and loved/hated them. The Kefs were phenomenal, and I'm going to chase that dragon.

[jbrunwa]

Jun 23, 2021 13:12:47 GMT -5 Cowhorn said:

Hello, all.

I am hoping to get some honest feedback on a question I've had for a while now. First off my system is a dedicated 2-channel setup on which I play CDs (75%) and vinyl (25%). I listen to rock almost exclusively (Stones, Floyd, Peppers, etc). I have a Schiit Freya+ preamp that I use in the tube stage, a Schiit Modi Multibit DAC, an Emotiva XPA-DR3 amp, Thiel CS 2.3 speakers, and dual SVS SB 2000 Pro subs. My room is 22'W x 30"L x 9'H and has been treated with GIK bass traps and diffusors. My system sounds ok, but not great. I have great clarity but only average soundstage and anemic bass. I tend to listen to my music at 65-75 dB yet still get ear fatigue after only 30-45 minutes.

So...I'm trying to figure out the weak link in my system. I believe it is either the amp or the speakers. I'm eyeing the PS Audio Stellar M1200 to replace the DR3, but before doing that I auditioned some speakers at...easy, now...Best Buy. I listened to the Kef Reference 3 and the Kef Blade 2 and was completely blown away by both of these speakers. What I really liked about them was the incredible 3D, wrap-around, holographic, 'you are really there' soundstage they produced as well as the tremendous palpable bass they put out. What I didn't like about them was the price!

I spoke to to the very knowledgeable manager there and shared with him my thoughts and the issues I am having with my system. He seemed to think that the PS Audio amp would "wake up" my Thiels. I'm not so sure. The Thiels have only a single 9" woofer and an 8" passive radiator, so I doubt they will make that much more bass with a different amp. I have heard great things about the Airmotiv T2+ and may give them a try. Can anyone speak to the quality of the soundstage and bass they put out? Can anyone compare them to the KEF models I mentioned above?

I'd like opinions as to what my next move should be. New amp or new speakers?

Thanks!

Hi and welcome! Here is my two cents, probably worth about that much. Have you tried measuring the output of your existing system using REW and a calibrated microphone? This would give you an objective measurement of the frequency response. Listening to speakers in a show room is certainly helpful to do A/B comparisons between speakers but this doesn't really tell you how they would perform in your room especially in lower frequencies. 

[405x5]

Jun 23, 2021 13:12:47 GMT -5 Cowhorn said:

Hello, all.

I am hoping to get some honest feedback on a question I've had for a while now. First off my system is a dedicated 2-channel setup on which I play CDs (75%) and vinyl (25%). I listen to rock almost exclusively (Stones, Floyd, Peppers, etc). I have a Schiit Freya+ preamp that I use in the tube stage, a Schiit Modi Multibit DAC, an Emotiva XPA-DR3 amp, Thiel CS 2.3 speakers, and dual SVS SB 2000 Pro subs. My room is 22'W x 30"L x 9'H and has been treated with GIK bass traps and diffusors. My system sounds ok, but not great. I have great clarity but only average soundstage and anemic bass. I tend to listen to my music at 65-75 dB yet still get ear fatigue after only 30-45 minutes.

So...I'm trying to figure out the weak link in my system. I believe it is either the amp or the speakers. I'm eyeing the PS Audio Stellar M1200 to replace the DR3, but before doing that I auditioned some speakers at...easy, now...Best Buy. I listened to the Kef Reference 3 and the Kef Blade 2 and was completely blown away by both of these speakers. What I really liked about them was the incredible 3D, wrap-around, holographic, 'you are really there' soundstage they produced as well as the tremendous palpable bass they put out. What I didn't like about them was the price!

I spoke to to the very knowledgeable manager there and shared with him my thoughts and the issues I am having with my system. He seemed to think that the PS Audio amp would "wake up" my Thiels. I'm not so sure. The Thiels have only a single 9" woofer and an 8" passive radiator, so I doubt they will make that much more bass with a different amp. I have heard great things about the Airmotiv T2+ and may give them a try. Can anyone speak to the quality of the soundstage and bass they put out? Can anyone compare them to the KEF models I mentioned above?

I'd like opinions as to what my next move should be. New amp or new speakers?

Thanks!

Speakers are the top listening fatigue priority. And proper subwoofer integration if you’re not getting low enough.
“Average soundstage”?? That’s a new one on me. Guys constantly toss that subjective word around. Even the thought of using the word makes me cringe

[KeithL]

Since you asked here's my two cents...

First of all the room, and speaker placement, both have a major impact on how a system will sound - probably more than anything else.

And speaker placement, and things like toe in, can have a major effect on sound stage.

That said....

The XPA-DR3 is most certainly NOT going to be "lacking in bass"... it's dead flat and has massive amounts of power.

Sound stage is also just plain not something for an amplifier to give or not... if everything else is working right then the sound stage will be whatever it was when it was recorded.

(With the qualifier that speaker placement, and toe in, and distance from the side walls, and from the walls behind them, tend to affect how wide and deep the sound stage is.)

You're also not going to convince me that a pair of SVS subs can't deliver on the low bass...

So perhaps you need to revisit where you have them located in the room and how you have them configured as well...

I've heard several different models of Thiel speakers... and they all sounded very nice... and not at all lacking in bass or sound stage.

They're not going to tear the walls down, and they certainly aren't thumpy, but I doubt there's anything wrong with the way they sound.

KEF speakers all have excellent sound quality, and thanks to their concentric driver design, they can all deliver excellent imaging...

(They're also less fussy than some other speakers in terms of optimum location and toe in.)

However, as you've noticed, they also tend to have really impressive price tags...

(They also tend to deliver a lot on that in terms of really smooth midrange, which makes them excellent for jazz and vocals, but not necessarily the best way to spend your money for rock.)

I'd be kind of inclined to try the Freya in one of its NON-tube modes... tubes do color the sound... and not everyone likes the color they impart...

And maybe even see how things sound with another DAC... because not everyone likes R2R DACs either... and the Modi is only a 14/16 bit DAC...

Jun 23, 2021 13:12:47 GMT -5 Cowhorn said:

Hello, all.

I am hoping to get some honest feedback on a question I've had for a while now. First off my system is a dedicated 2-channel setup on which I play CDs (75%) and vinyl (25%). I listen to rock almost exclusively (Stones, Floyd, Peppers, etc). I have a Schiit Freya+ preamp that I use in the tube stage, a Schiit Modi Multibit DAC, an Emotiva XPA-DR3 amp, Thiel CS 2.3 speakers, and dual SVS SB 2000 Pro subs. My room is 22'W x 30"L x 9'H and has been treated with GIK bass traps and diffusors. My system sounds ok, but not great. I have great clarity but only average soundstage and anemic bass. I tend to listen to my music at 65-75 dB yet still get ear fatigue after only 30-45 minutes.

So...I'm trying to figure out the weak link in my system. I believe it is either the amp or the speakers. I'm eyeing the PS Audio Stellar M1200 to replace the DR3, but before doing that I auditioned some speakers at...easy, now...Best Buy. I listened to the Kef Reference 3 and the Kef Blade 2 and was completely blown away by both of these speakers. What I really liked about them was the incredible 3D, wrap-around, holographic, 'you are really there' soundstage they produced as well as the tremendous palpable bass they put out. What I didn't like about them was the price!

I spoke to to the very knowledgeable manager there and shared with him my thoughts and the issues I am having with my system. He seemed to think that the PS Audio amp would "wake up" my Thiels. I'm not so sure. The Thiels have only a single 9" woofer and an 8" passive radiator, so I doubt they will make that much more bass with a different amp. I have heard great things about the Airmotiv T2+ and may give them a try. Can anyone speak to the quality of the soundstage and bass they put out? Can anyone compare them to the KEF models I mentioned above?

I'd like opinions as to what my next move should be. New amp or new speakers?

Thanks!

[Cowhorn]

Thanks. Good points.

[Cowhorn]

Hi, Keith.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. A few follow-ups...

Regarding speaker placement and room acoustics, I worked on both of these for over six months and definitely found the sweetest spots possible for the Thiels and the subs by moving them around again and again and again and again and again. You get the picture.

When I asked the people at PS Audio what differences I would hear with their amp (Stellar M1200 monoblocks) versus the XPA-DR3, they told me I would have 'a deeper and richer soundstage' and 'more musicality'. That's where my idea of amps having the ability to influence soundstage came from. Maybe imaging is the better term and not soundstage. Thoughts?

I don't think my issues are with the SVS subs, either. The low low bass is fine, but I find that I have to set the low pass frequency on the subs really high to fill in the missing bass and mid-bass frequencies. That is why I think the speakers may be the culprits. The music isn't very visceral.

I agree that the Thiels are very accurate speakers and look great on paper, but maybe they just don't integrate well with my room, system, music preference. I'm trying to discern if the speakers need to be changed or if a component in the system needs to be changed and am relying on people who know Emotiva well to help me figure this out.

I've tried the Freya+ in all stages, and I definitely like the sound in the tube stage.

I have tried two other DACs without much of a difference.

Thanks again, all, for the feedback. Please keep the great ideas coming. I'm all ears!

[LuisV]

Welcome to the group... out of curiosity did you work with GiK to model the room or did you simply purchase the bass traps and diffusors? Only asking as a room typically requires a combination of absorption and diffusion. I'm not blaming the GiK panels, I use them in my dedicated room as well... just a question to get a better understanding of the choices / room setup.

The Freya+ and Modi Multi-bit shouldn't sound fatiguing... I ran both for a while before I tried other DACs. Most recently performed listening tests between the Ares II and Bifrost 2.  Just curious, how long have you had both in your system? Sounds silly, but did you power everything down, disconnect power and reconnect?  Verified speaker cable polarity at the amp and speaker?  Below is my 2 channel journey... with comments on tube rolling the Freya+

emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/57382/heading-back-2-channel

About 6 years ago, maybe longer, my wife and I experienced bad ear fatigue when we auditioned a pair of Ascend Acoustic Sierra towers with RAAL tweeters in our room. After countless measurements via REW and working with the designer of the speakers, we returned them as we couldn't listen to them for longer than 10mins or so before experiencing ear fatigue; long story short, it turned out that both RAAL tweeters were defective... they actually had a bad batch of tweeters that were all replaced.  Loong story... I ended up not going with Ascend Acoustics.

[ttocs]

Jun 25, 2021 7:51:50 GMT -5 Cowhorn said:

I don't think my issues are with the SVS subs, either. The low low bass is fine, but I find that I have to set the low pass frequency on the subs really high to fill in the missing bass and mid-bass frequencies. That is why I think the speakers may be the culprits. The music isn't very visceral.

I agree that the Thiels are very accurate speakers and look great on paper, but maybe they just don't integrate well with my room, system, music preference. I'm trying to discern if the speakers need to be changed or if a component in the system needs to be changed and am relying on people who know Emotiva well to help me figure this out.

When you say the subwoofer XO is set high, how high?
There might be cancellation of frequencies based upon the placement of the speakers. You can move your seat to test. Try moving the speakers waaaay out from the wall. Consider everything that costs nothing but time first before replacing anything.

[doc1963]

Jun 23, 2021 13:12:47 GMT -5 Cowhorn said:

Hello, all.

I am hoping to get some honest feedback on a question I've had for a while now. First off my system is a dedicated 2-channel setup on which I play CDs (75%) and vinyl (25%). I listen to rock almost exclusively (Stones, Floyd, Peppers, etc). I have a Schiit Freya+ preamp that I use in the tube stage, a Schiit Modi Multibit DAC, an Emotiva XPA-DR3 amp, Thiel CS 2.3 speakers, and dual SVS SB 2000 Pro subs. My room is 22'W x 30"L x 9'H and has been treated with GIK bass traps and diffusors. My system sounds ok, but not great. I have great clarity but only average soundstage and anemic bass. I tend to listen to my music at 65-75 dB yet still get ear fatigue after only 30-45 minutes.

So...I'm trying to figure out the weak link in my system. I believe it is either the amp or the speakers. I'm eyeing the PS Audio Stellar M1200 to replace the DR3, but before doing that I auditioned some speakers at...easy, now...Best Buy. I listened to the Kef Reference 3 and the Kef Blade 2 and was completely blown away by both of these speakers. What I really liked about them was the incredible 3D, wrap-around, holographic, 'you are really there' soundstage they produced as well as the tremendous palpable bass they put out. What I didn't like about them was the price!

I spoke to to the very knowledgeable manager there and shared with him my thoughts and the issues I am having with my system. He seemed to think that the PS Audio amp would "wake up" my Thiels. I'm not so sure. The Thiels have only a single 9" woofer and an 8" passive radiator, so I doubt they will make that much more bass with a different amp. I have heard great things about the Airmotiv T2+ and may give them a try. Can anyone speak to the quality of the soundstage and bass they put out? Can anyone compare them to the KEF models I mentioned above?

I'd like opinions as to what my next move should be. New amp or new speakers?

Thanks!

Some missing pieces of information are... how you have this all interconnected. What (if anything) is handling bass management...? How is the DR-3 connected (balanced or single ended)...?

EDIT: I see that the two posts above mine might be alluding to the same thing I'm thinking...

[monkumonku]

Some comments, for whatever they are worth...

When you listened to the KEF's at Best Buy, were they being played at the 65-75 db level you normally use at home? If they were louder that might make them sound "better."

It would help if you posted a picture of your room so we can see how everything is positioned and what the surfaces are like.

I find it hard to believe that SVS subs could be bass anemic. It could very well be that the sort of music you listen to just doesn't sound right at the relatively low levels you use (I say relatively, because of the genre). Because of the Fletcher-Munson curve, the bass may sound light.

When the PS Audio sales rep told you that their amp would give you a "deeper and richer soundstage" and "more musicality," just what exactly does "richer soundstage" mean? And what exactly does "more musicality" mean? That's almost like saying it will make your system sound more organic and chocolatey.

[jackpine]

With the quality of equipment and effort you've put into trying to get good sound I suspect something is defective. Really look at all your wiring and settings it's easy to make a dumb mistake. Then look at your oldest and newest components things usually go bad in the first 90 days or after many years.

[405x5]

Jun 25, 2021 9:48:16 GMT -5 monkumonku said:

“That's almost like saying it will make your system sound more organic and chocolatey.”


Now look what you’ve done! (I’m not supposed to think about chocolate at breakfast)! 

[garbulky]

Jun 23, 2021 13:12:47 GMT -5 Cowhorn said:

Hello, all.

I am hoping to get some honest feedback on a question I've had for a while now. First off my system is a dedicated 2-channel setup on which I play CDs (75%) and vinyl (25%). I listen to rock almost exclusively (Stones, Floyd, Peppers, etc). I have a Schiit Freya+ preamp that I use in the tube stage, a Schiit Modi Multibit DAC, an Emotiva XPA-DR3 amp, Thiel CS 2.3 speakers, and dual SVS SB 2000 Pro subs. My room is 22'W x 30"L x 9'H and has been treated with GIK bass traps and diffusors. My system sounds ok, but not great. I have great clarity but only average soundstage and anemic bass. I tend to listen to my music at 65-75 dB yet still get ear fatigue after only 30-45 minutes.

So...I'm trying to figure out the weak link in my system. I believe it is either the amp or the speakers. I'm eyeing the PS Audio Stellar M1200 to replace the DR3, but before doing that I auditioned some speakers at...easy, now...Best Buy. I listened to the Kef Reference 3 and the Kef Blade 2 and was completely blown away by both of these speakers. What I really liked about them was the incredible 3D, wrap-around, holographic, 'you are really there' soundstage they produced as well as the tremendous palpable bass they put out. What I didn't like about them was the price!

I spoke to to the very knowledgeable manager there and shared with him my thoughts and the issues I am having with my system. He seemed to think that the PS Audio amp would "wake up" my Thiels. I'm not so sure. The Thiels have only a single 9" woofer and an 8" passive radiator, so I doubt they will make that much more bass with a different amp. I have heard great things about the Airmotiv T2+ and may give them a try. Can anyone speak to the quality of the soundstage and bass they put out? Can anyone compare them to the KEF models I mentioned above?

I'd like opinions as to what my next move should be. New amp or new speakers?

Thanks!

Hi well you have done several things right.
You have powerful amps (yes the XPA gen 3 has some slamming bass) good speakers, subs etc. Room treatment. Now you have a LARGE room.
I don't think you should be spending that kind of money when you would likely be wowed much more easily with less. Bigger speakers can give you better bass - but the prices can be exorbitant.

What that is telling me is that
1. You're not going to like this. Your enemy is your room. You have very likely NOT treated your room enough....like not even close. You'd be surprised at how much room treatment it can take to make a difference past the intial whizzbang you get after you stick in say 2 to six panels. This is going to be making the difference. Whatever you have, you're probably going to want to double it and you are immediately not going to want to because of how cumbersome room treatments are. But it's the truth.
Consult with GIK on this. They'll give you a ridiculously large reccomendation of room panels- and they are right. ATS acoustics is a little cheaper. There are also acoustic panel companies which can have splendid custom pictures or photos printed which span seamlessly across several panels if the looks of panels bother you (for $$$).


2. Your subs. They're good subs. Going dual was a fantastic idea. But I think you need MOAR powah to get that room coupling you would want. The most impressive subs I have seen are the Powersound audio S3612. (I've heard the s3601). Dual 18 inch subs each. I believe this guy designed SVS subs before he started this company. The PSA subs are humungous and will absolutely extend extremely low and couple to your room. They excel in low end impact and pressurizing the room. They are ridiculously quick too so the bass has all the texture and growl etc that lesser subs can't communicate.

Even one of those you will pretty much never have any horsepower problems. However, if you go with two of these, you will have a better balanced sound field kind of like what you did with the SVS. You will be stunned by how much more nicer it is especially because you already have nice subs. Keep in mind that once you get them you probably will simply get rid of the SVS because they can't hang at the same level as these because of the extended frequency response.

3. Last are the Thiels. Honestly the Thiels are really nice speakers. Perhaps they might be a tad small for your room. But I would personally experiment with room treatments and subs first before buying new speakers.

4. If you want to experiment with speakers, the sky's the limit.
You can couple them with Axiom M80 speakers (high power) version for al little bit more oomph. The axioms are still the best sounding speakers I've heard.

The Emotiva T2 is rather small but surprisingly full range. They are extremely detailed especially in the treble, feeling almost holographic with a punchy as all get out bass. The mid-range is serviceable but probably just a hair less impactful than some of the best out there. The Emotiva T2 is one of the best speakers I've heard despite being one of the smallest. They may be a cheap option especially because they have a trial period that you can send them back if you don't like it.

The step up from the emotiva and axiom - and keep in mind it's only a slight step up would be something like the Sonus Faber SOnetto VIII. www.sonusfaber.com/en/products/sonetto-viii/
This speaker is slightly more robust in the mid range but doesn't quite extend to the depths like the Emotiva T2 can. There's no doubt it's a high quality speaker. It's got a bit better stability in the sound but absolutely not worth the crazy price premium - which is mainly for the fantastic looks.

If you are okay with going for something off the beaten path that produces BIG sound...
The tekton Double impact will do just that for you Almost every tekton speaker produces big sound and they never run out of horsepower. The Tekton Pendragons took a room about your size and pretty much shook it around. The Pendragons weren't the last word in balanced midrange because it didn't have a mid range woofer. Who knows the Tekton Double impact (or higher) with its additional mid woofers may be just what you are looking for. They do come with beautiful paint finishes or other finishes that you can request. The speakers are almost custom-made basically as you request. The sound you get here is large in scale due to the tremendous height of the speakers so everything feels nice and big and immersive. Like really big.
tektondesign.com/product/full-range-speakers/full-towers/double-impact-se/

If you want to really go for it big sound pricewise, I have a hard time believing you wouldn't be just about thrilled with the Tekton 1812. A member on this forums has the lower priced ulberfeight and he is bringing the house down with ridiculous SPL figures (over 120 db).
tektondesign.com/product/full-range-speakers/flagship/1812-model-v12/

Keep in mind that these are massive. (Note I haven't heard them).

As for the PS Audio amps, yeah just don't worry about those.

The best amps I've heard are
XPA-1 gen 2 (Wowza, just fantastic).
Emotiva PA-1 amps (amazing detail, has some trouble driving planars or some speakers. Slightly lighter weight in impact versus the XPA-1 gen 2, but very close. CHEAP AS HELL).

If you want a surreal experience, my friend B'zilla is selling his Audio Gd HE-1 preamp for peanuts (imo). I've heard it and it sounds uncanny at how musical it is - as long as you are listening on speakers.

[cawgijoe]

Thiel speakers are fantastic...I wish they were still around....you have great equipment. I'm not sure what is going on, but you should not have an anemic system.

It's tough to diagnose remotely, where are you located....maybe there is a Lounge member near you who can help out....

[doc1963]

Jun 25, 2021 10:58:14 GMT -5 garbulky said:

2. Your subs. They're good subs. Going dual was a fantastic idea. But I think you need MOAR powah to get that room coupling you would want. The most impressive subs I have seen are the Powersound audio S3612. (I've heard the s3601). Dual 18 inch subs each. I believe this guy designed SVS subs before he started this company. The PSA subs are humungous and will absolutely extend extremely low and couple to your room. They excel in low end impact and pressurizing the room. They are ridiculously quick too so the bass has all the texture and growl etc that lesser subs can't communicate.

That's correct... Tom Vodhanel (the "V" in SVS) was the original co-founder and chief designer of SVS. He parted ways with the company he founded citing visionary differences of opinion when SVS went public. After leaving SVS, he founded Power Sound Audio. All of his products are designed by him, personally, and built by hand at PSA's facility in Mineral Ridge, Ohio.

Quite honestly they're the best subwoofers I've ever owned. They're not cheap, but worth every penny...

[bootman]

Welcome to arkham, I mean the Emotiva lounge.

First thing I would check is the sub's phase relative to each other.



Good luck

[KeithL]

There is no such thing as "sound stage" as a separate thing.

Sound is nothing more than a variation in air pressure - which our ears can detect with great accuracy in some respect - and which our brains are incredibly good at interpreting. 

What you hear as "sound stage" is how your brain interprets the time and phase relationships between the sound entering your two ears.

Your brain "decodes" that information and uses it to determine where each specific sound or instrument "seems to be coming from".

When you listen to a live performance this information comes about because various instruments are actually located at different points on the stage as well as reflections from various points in the room.

(Obviously, when you listen to a recording, the sounds all come from the wrong direction - your two speakers and the walls of your listening room.

It is up to your system to deliver a signal to your two ears such that it tricks your brain into seeming to hear that original performance and those original instrument locations and room acoustics.)

This is all influenced to a significant degree by your speakers (because most speakers produce significant phase shift and each speaker model distributes different frequencies throughout the room differently.)

The speakers, the room, and how they interact, are probably the largest overall influence on how you perceive the sound stage of what you're listening to.

It is also obviously going to be influenced to a significant degree by the content itself... both the "quality" of the recording and the way in which it was recorded and mastered.

However, with all else being equal, two amplifiers that produce no audible amount of phase shift or distortion, and playing the same source signal, will "deliver the same sound stage".

An accurate amplifier is going to reproduce the electronic signal accurately - at which point it will be up to your speakers and room to do their part accurately.

And some less accurate gear may unintentionally (or intentionally) alter the signal in such a way that it tricks your brain into "hearing" a "sound stage" that is different than the one that was originally recorded.

At which point it's your choice whether you prefer the accurate rendition of the recording or the one that has been "improved".

(For example a lot of tube gear artificially alters the sound stage in ways that many people find pleasant... for example producing frequency dependent phase shift that results in "a wider perceived sound stage".)

As for the situation with your subs... I think you need to look into that further.

I suspect that something about the room placement or setup of the Thiels is causing them NOT to deliver as much mid-bass as they should...
And, as a result, you have moved the crossover on your subs up too high "to fill in the gap".

Your Thiels shouldn't have any problem producing a sufficient amount of nice clean detailed mid-bass...

That should enable you to push that crossover to the subs down lower....

Which should enable them to do what they do well...

The crossover between full range speakers and multiple subs is always going to be a bit problematic...

So you're always better off if you can put it down nice and low...

I'd be looking to figure out what's going on, and why the Thiels don't seem to produce enough mid-bass, and fix that.

Maybe get the Thiels closer to some room boundaries...

Then set that crossover lower rather than unusually high...

Jun 25, 2021 7:51:50 GMT -5 Cowhorn said:

Hi, Keith.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. A few follow-ups...

Regarding speaker placement and room acoustics, I worked on both of these for over six months and definitely found the sweetest spots possible for the Thiels and the subs by moving them around again and again and again and again and again. You get the picture.

When I asked the people at PS Audio what differences I would hear with their amp (Stellar M1200 monoblocks) versus the XPA-DR3, they told me I would have 'a deeper and richer soundstage' and 'more musicality'. That's where my idea of amps having the ability to influence soundstage came from. Maybe imaging is the better term and not soundstage. Thoughts?

I don't think my issues are with the SVS subs, either. The low low bass is fine, but I find that I have to set the low pass frequency on the subs really high to fill in the missing bass and mid-bass frequencies. That is why I think the speakers may be the culprits. The music isn't very visceral.

I agree that the Thiels are very accurate speakers and look great on paper, but maybe they just don't integrate well with my room, system, music preference. I'm trying to discern if the speakers need to be changed or if a component in the system needs to be changed and am relying on people who know Emotiva well to help me figure this out.

I've tried the Freya+ in all stages, and I definitely like the sound in the tube stage.

I have tried two other DACs without much of a difference.

Thanks again, all, for the feedback. Please keep the great ideas coming. I'm all ears!

[Cowhorn]

Jun 25, 2021 8:44:00 GMT -5 LuisV said:

Welcome to the group... out of curiosity did you work with GiK to model the room or did you simply purchase the bass traps and diffusors? Only asking as a room typically requires a combination of absorption and diffusion. I'm not blaming the GiK panels, I use them in my dedicated room as well... just a question to get a better understanding of the choices / room setup.


Yes, I did work with GIK. I sent them pics and dimensions of the room and followed their recommendations for products and placement. I have two bass traps in the front corners of this carpeted rectangular dedicated room and ten 4" thick diffusors/absorbers at first reflection points, back wall, etc. The room is quiet and echo-free but not dead.


The Freya+ and Modi Multi-bit shouldn't sound fatiguing... I ran both for a while before I tried other DACs. Most recently performed listening tests between the Ares II and Bifrost 2.  Just curious, how long have you had both in your system? Sounds silly, but did you power everything down, disconnect power and reconnect?  Verified speaker cable polarity at the amp and speaker?  Below is my 2 channel journey... with comments on tube rolling the Freya+

I have had the Schiit stuff and the XPA-DR3 for over a year, the SVS subs about 9 months, and the Thiels since 1997. All are properly connected.

emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/57382/heading-back-2-channel

I will check this out. Thanks for the reply!

About 6 years ago, maybe longer, my wife and I experienced bad ear fatigue when we auditioned a pair of Ascend Acoustic Sierra towers with RAAL tweeters in our room. After countless measurements via REW and working with the designer of the speakers, we returned them as we couldn't listen to them for longer than 10mins or so before experiencing ear fatigue; long story short, it turned out that both RAAL tweeters were defective... they actually had a bad batch of tweeters that were all replaced.  Loong story... I ended up not going with Ascend Acoustics.

Interesting!