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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 26, 2021 21:37:54 GMT -5
Their website talks a good game, with lots of technological gee-whiz, but how much credibility should one place in the reviews there? Is their (seemingly unique) measuring method credible for eliminating room resonances from their measurements? Are their graphs showing driver ringing, crossover phase problems, and cabinet resonances valid? In short, how much credence should a positive (or negative) review from ASR be given?
Thanks - Boom
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2021 21:57:33 GMT -5
Their website talks a good game, with lots of technological gee-whiz, but how much credibility should one place in the reviews there? Is their (seemingly unique) measuring method credible for eliminating room resonances from their measurements? Are their graphs showing driver ringing, crossover phase problems, and cabinet resonances valid? In short, how much credence should a positive (or negative) review from ASR be given? Thanks - Boom I suppose no more or no less than other publications which do not limit testing to an exact same anechoic chamber. Some give props to Stereophile because they use a "standardized" testing method ... . seemingly similar to what ASR does. My last purchase was a DAC based on ASR's review when they assured that anything more spec wise won't be humanly audible. I couldn't be happier w/ my purchase which was the SMSL M400. |
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Post by Soup on Jun 27, 2021 6:59:35 GMT -5
Not sure at all, but i did check them out before i went with the Anthem MRX 1120 instead of either the AVM60, MRX 720 or 520....
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Post by brutiarti on Jun 27, 2021 8:01:02 GMT -5
IMO not at all. Besides that they don’t really listen to the equipment, they just measure it, that’s ok. But, the majority of the testing is done on used equipment that nobody knows if it’s working correctly.
I will only consider measurments of brand new equipment and follow ups from the manufacturer if something is wrong.
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Post by 405x5 on Jun 27, 2021 8:25:40 GMT -5
Their website talks a good game, with lots of technological gee-whiz, but how much credibility should one place in the reviews there? Is their (seemingly unique) measuring method credible for eliminating room resonances from their measurements? Are their graphs showing driver ringing, crossover phase problems, and cabinet resonances valid? In short, how much credence should a positive (or negative) review from ASR be given? Thanks - Boom I LOVE “the name”….innocuous at best |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 27, 2021 8:31:03 GMT -5
They found a significant problem with the early Fimware for the RMC-1, after first dismissing it, Emotiva went back and found the problem. I’d say they have value, especially because they do follow a scientific method. Admittedly, I have not read many of their reviews, I did read a lot regarding the RMC-1, in my opinion they are another valid source of information about equipment. What has caused you to question them?
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 27, 2021 9:03:18 GMT -5
They found a significant problem with the early Fimware for the RMC-1, after first dismissing it, Emotiva went back and found the problem. I’d say they have value, especially because they do follow a scientific method. Admittedly, I have not read many of their reviews, I did read a lot regarding the RMC-1, in my opinion they are another valid source of information about equipment. What has caused you to question them? I've read criticism of their methods and the fact that even the site owner admits that sometimes he finds equipment that measures far better than it sounds. This "disconnect" between measurements and audible performance is something that I've always noted, but had no way to quantify. So my bottom line is "just how much credence should I place in measurements in general and in that website's measurements, in particular?" |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jun 27, 2021 9:30:58 GMT -5
Never heard of them till reading about them here.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 27, 2021 9:49:33 GMT -5
ASR is not a source for any meaningful information in my opinion. It is a good source for opinion mostly driven by one person.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 9:54:29 GMT -5
They found a significant problem with the early Fimware for the RMC-1, after first dismissing it, Emotiva went back and found the problem. I’d say they have value, especially because they do follow a scientific method. Admittedly, I have not read many of their reviews, I did read a lot regarding the RMC-1, in my opinion they are another valid source of information about equipment. What has caused you to question them? I've read criticism of their methods and the fact that even the site owner admits that sometimes he finds equipment that measures far better than it sounds. This "disconnect" between measurements and audible performance is something that I've always noted, but had no way to quantify. So my bottom line is "just how much credence should I place in measurements in general and in that website's measurements, in particular?" No more or less credible than the emphasis on another person's subjective listening experience. I think it rare that a piece of equipment will measure well whether speakers or electronics and sound horrible especially among the field of audio manufacturers today. That horribleness if found though could leave someone scratching their head as a result of a bad room - a variation that exists from one reviewer or another or one lab to another in testing. Let's look at an example. The Emotiva Gen 3 XPA was consistently described as sounding "masculine" or "transistor like" regardless of whether Emotiva claims that its amp fidelity is "neutral". What that meant when another publication finally measured the amp was that distortion in the midrange was observed. Point being is the best measurements w/ fancy graphs and specs need be translated. Either translated by a reviewer in his own subjective terms or by a listener's ears. I think by now after coming out of the recent pandemic we should all now know that math, stats, and the resulting narrations vary quite a bit to say the least. In the long run this is a futile effort - just remember, because something has the label science stamped on it doesn't mean it is. For example, fossil records are evidence and that evidence is translated by varying and quite opposite "scientific schools of thought or camps" whether Darwinian Evolutionist or Creationist. They are both looking at the same exact evidence but quite different narratives results. Which brings me to a person's presuppositions. What they believe beforehand matters. I can tell you right now that if you try to sell me Radio Shack electronics you'll have quite the initial objections and presuppositions to overcome. Likewise, in the area of audiophile there's a psychoacoustical effect that sometimes is the result of good narratives - we see this in the form of snake oil salesman and no matter what people will believe one way or the other with conviction despite no measurable differences. Same problem results in wine testing. Does a 1000 dollar bottle of wine taste better than a 20 bottle of wine? Who do we listen? To our taste buds which may either be more skilled than someone writing a review or less skilled than a professional wine tester? I think all information can be good if it is used to make a more informed decision. Lastly, there's no reason why someone has to choose only one publication or method and solely place their trust in that publication/reviewer. We can quickly compile massive amounts of information and make a more informed decision today. Note: One of the things I found interesting through discovery when selecting my DAC was I noted that though the same chipset may be in the SMSL M400 as others some reviewers did not try various filters which are available in each DAC. Some manufacturers lock the DAC and only offer one filter which becomes that company's signature sound. Or the DAC ships w/ a default filter selected that is different than the default filter shipped in the SMSL M400. As a result a reviewer raved over one product and not the other and I was left curious as to whether the underrated DAC was quite capable of producing the same fidelity that the Reviewer preferred. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 27, 2021 10:00:32 GMT -5
They found a significant problem with the early Fimware for the RMC-1, after first dismissing it, Emotiva went back and found the problem. I’d say they have value, especially because they do follow a scientific method. Admittedly, I have not read many of their reviews, I did read a lot regarding the RMC-1, in my opinion they are another valid source of information about equipment. What has caused you to question them? I've read criticism of their methods and the fact that even the site owner admits that sometimes he finds equipment that measures far better than it sounds. This "disconnect" between measurements and audible performance is something that I've always noted, but had no way to quantify. So my bottom line is "just how much credence should I place in measurements in general and in that website's measurements, in particular?" I think that question has been pondered for some time (Julian Hirsch and Harry Pearson come to mind), The conventional wisdom seems that ‘most’ equipment that sounds good, also measures well, but that the converse isn’t necessarily true. It seems that as more measurements are taken, correlations increase, maybe we’ll get to a place where can more confidently point to measurements predicting sound quality. I should probably read more ASR before commenting specifically on them, but what I’ve read seems credible. |
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Post by monkumonku on Jun 27, 2021 10:09:33 GMT -5
ASR is mainly about measurements and the guy has a bunch of Kool Aid followers. The way I look at it, whether or not those measurements are correct makes no difference because the ultimate test is in how a component sounds. When purchasing any significant audio gear I try and find as much information as possible and like to read not only the "professional" reviews but also what actual consumers have to say about it, keeping in mind context. I don't think Amir has any agenda and he wants to be objective but he's just one source of information. You could very well ask the same question of this thread topic of any reviewer. Whether they are on the objective or subjective end of a bell curve they're still just one source of information that is up to each of us to evaluate. Also... I think we find the guy to be more credible when we agree with what he has to say, and he is full of it when we don't agree. Just like any other reviewer.  |
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Post by DYohn on Jun 27, 2021 10:12:45 GMT -5
Besides the desperate need to be right, one agenda that often seems apparent in Amir's judgements is he seems to own a piece of the company Topping since he thinks they can do no wrong. But I might be reading too much into it.
Bottom line for me is to ignore everything that he says. It's often wrong and always biased. And the measurement methodology employed may or may not be correct (and the test gear may or may not be calibrated) but who knows since he refuses to divulge his methods and there is no evidence he has been trained in a lab. Just because he bought an Avermetrics unit (or whatever audio analyzer he uses) does not mean he knows how to obtain the proper results.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 10:16:14 GMT -5
Also... I think we find the guy to be more credible when we agree with what he has to say, and he is full of it when we don't agree. Just like any other reviewer. Yup, the standard by which some measure every thing or one else in life comes to question. Such is the struggle for some in philosophy, theology, politics, etc. It is easy to slap the label "truth" upon anything in general. However, sometimes the object in question observed from one perspective needs be abandoned for another position to see from another perspective. In this way we may see whether the truth is more clear or less clear from various positions or in this case from other publications/reviewers/and testing methods. |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 27, 2021 10:26:02 GMT -5
Their website talks a good game, with lots of technological gee-whiz, but how much credibility should one place in the reviews there? Is their (seemingly unique) measuring method credible for eliminating room resonances from their measurements? Are their graphs showing driver ringing, crossover phase problems, and cabinet resonances valid? In short, how much credence should a positive (or negative) review from ASR be given? Thanks - Boom "Technological gee whiz"  shows that Boom has no clue and should not waste his time at ASR. ASR performs standard audio measurements for S/N, THD, dynamic range, jitter, linearity, power, etc., same as JA at Stereophile and PM at HiFI News. Russ |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 10:31:35 GMT -5
Their website talks a good game, with lots of technological gee-whiz, but how much credibility should one place in the reviews there? Is their (seemingly unique) measuring method credible for eliminating room resonances from their measurements? Are their graphs showing driver ringing, crossover phase problems, and cabinet resonances valid? In short, how much credence should a positive (or negative) review from ASR be given? Thanks - Boom "Technological gee whiz" shows that Boom has no clue and should not waste his time at ASR. ASR performs standard audio measurements for S/N, THD, dynamic range, jitter, linearity, power, etc., same as JA at Stereophile and PM at HiFI News. Russ You mention one of the things I actually like by ASR. Straight measurements and a basic yay or nay. No brain science when 50% distortion is observed whether to recommend or not recommend. Listing the best spec wonders as they measure is IMO hard data to argue against from objectivity. Leave others namely the listener to translate and interpret for themselves - it's a futile effort attempting to convince someone else of anything let alone ourselves to change our position for the better. |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 27, 2021 10:34:28 GMT -5
IMO not at all. Besides that they don’t really listen to the equipment, they just measure it, that’s ok. But, the majority of the testing is done on used equipment that nobody knows if it’s working correctly. I will only consider measurments of brand new equipment and follow ups from the manufacturer if something is wrong. First priority of ASR is to measure equipment and then to compare the results (rate) against similarly measured equipment. Listening is secondary but done in most cases, particularly for speakers. AND, most importantly, there are no claims of sound quality based on the measurements. If you were a regular reader of ASR you would not have made the "mostly used equipment" statement. Lots of the equipment tested is directly from the manufacturer or dropped shipped from a new purchase by a forum member. Russ |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 10:35:56 GMT -5
IMO not at all. Besides that they don’t really listen to the equipment, they just measure it, that’s ok. But, the majority of the testing is done on used equipment that nobody knows if it’s working correctly. I will only consider measurments of brand new equipment and follow ups from the manufacturer if something is wrong. First priority of ASR is to measure equipment and then to compare the results (rate) against similarly measured equipment. Listening is secondary but done in most cases, particularly for speakers. AND, most importantly, there are no claims of sound quality based on the measurements. If you were a regular reader of ASR you would not have made the "mostly used equipment" statement. Lots of the equipment tested is directly from the manufacturer or dropped shipped from a new purchase by a forum member. Russ Even if all the equipment was brand spanking new if it measured bad someone will say, "it needs break in time". |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 27, 2021 10:41:01 GMT -5
They found a significant problem with the early Fimware for the RMC-1, after first dismissing it, Emotiva went back and found the problem. I’d say they have value, especially because they do follow a scientific method. Admittedly, I have not read many of their reviews, I did read a lot regarding the RMC-1, in my opinion they are another valid source of information about equipment. What has caused you to question them? They also helped Schiit resolve a problem with one of their units. ASR is good for our hobby. They're quietly forcing manufacturers to do a better engineering job with better measurements (although not necceessarily better sound). Three four hundred dollar DACs can measure perfectly, why can't three four five thousand dollar DACs do the same? It's just a little extra work. Russ |
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Post by DYohn on Jun 27, 2021 10:43:07 GMT -5
They found a significant problem with the early Fimware for the RMC-1, after first dismissing it, Emotiva went back and found the problem. I’d say they have value, especially because they do follow a scientific method. Admittedly, I have not read many of their reviews, I did read a lot regarding the RMC-1, in my opinion they are another valid source of information about equipment. What has caused you to question them? They also helped Schiit resolve a problem with one of their units. ASR is good for our hobby. They're quietly forcing manufacturers to do a better engineering job with better measurements (although not necceessarily better sound). Three four hundred dollar DACs can measure perfectly, why can't three four five thousand dollar DACs do the same? It's just a little extra work. Russ Ask Schiit about that and you will find that they disagree that Amir had anything to do with anything, except in his own head. |
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shows that Boom has no clue and should not waste his time at ASR. ASR performs standard audio measurements for S/N, THD, dynamic range, jitter, linearity, power, etc., same as JA at Stereophile and PM at HiFI News.