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Post by Cogito on Jun 27, 2021 19:55:11 GMT -5
ASR is not a source for any meaningful information in my opinion. It is a good source for opinion mostly driven by one person. Measurements aren't opinions... |
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Post by garbulky on Jun 27, 2021 19:57:09 GMT -5
The thing with ASR is that it is really nice to get actual measurements of devices. I have been posting there for some time now. I like the fact that I can see when some supposedly amazing device clearly measures rather poorly and what it tells me is that the engineers haven't tried past a certain limit. Gives me an idea of the effort put in to something. Even worse if I see something (which is rare) measures very poorly then if I do consider it, at least I consider myself forewarned. His headphone measurements are VERY useful. He has a plot that shows the overall distortion and when it falls below a certain audible band and it is surprising what some headphones are capable of doing. He also spends time on equalization which is probably extremely helpful for people that do this. with everything, just know that your experience may vary.  |
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tparm
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Post by tparm on Jun 27, 2021 20:47:52 GMT -5
I believe one should decide how much credence they give to the sources they go to for information and make their own decisions based on that data. in other words, there are lots of forums, youtubers and publications out there for us to gather data from, find the ones you believe are creditable and inline with what is important to you. For example, I watched a review on youtube where the very peasant gentleman simply gave out inaccurate information so I removed him from my watch list.
I read reviews and comments on ASR and have sent a piece to Amir to be measured. In my opinion, a piece that measures better than its counterparts is likely (not always) engineered and/or put together better than those that measure poorly. So, if I am choosing between two products and one measures better than another, I'll likely choose the better measuring one.
This doesn't always hold true; I owned an AVR-A110 for about four months and while it appeared to be very well built using high end components, it never sounded better than my RMC-1L.
However, I bought a Gustard X16 DAC to use downstream of my ERC-4 and Node 2 and I wouldn't trade it for the world; everything that runs through it sounds better than not. I bought it based largely on ASR's measurements his subscribers comments.
Lastly, I seek info from lots of sources I trust, or at least value, before I make a buying decision. Amir has uncovered issues and worked with manufacturers (even here as mentioned above) to take corrective measures and I believe there is value for all of us in that. Mater of fact, it would be pretty cool to have an XMC-2 or RMC-1(L) running on current firmware tested.... anyone anyone?
Thanks.
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Post by jackpine on Jun 27, 2021 22:20:35 GMT -5
ASR and the Audiophiliac Daily show have both hit on a winning formula. Get the gear in fast and put out a lot of content everyday. Gets them lots of traffic the info is out there almost instantaneously months ahead of more traditional reviewers. I definitely believe in both the subjective and objective so I appreciate them both.
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DYohn
Emo VIPs 
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Post by DYohn on Jun 28, 2021 9:20:21 GMT -5
DYohn - you’ve lost all credibility in my eyes. My heart is broken. |
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Post by rbk123 on Jun 28, 2021 10:30:26 GMT -5
ASR is not a source for any meaningful information in my opinion. It is a good source for opinion mostly driven by one person. Measurements aren't opinions... If he only supplied measurements, this would be true. However he floods his measurement info with his opinions on why he's getting the measurements he's getting, and his opinions on what should, not could, be done to improve those measurements. That being said, there's plenty of room in audio for the Amir's of the world and his followers. More power to him/them. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jun 28, 2021 10:39:42 GMT -5
DYohn - you’ve lost all credibility in my eyes. My heart is broken.  |
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Post by JKCashin on Jun 28, 2021 10:41:15 GMT -5
Wow.. I am only on page two of this thread and alreay it reminds me of an argument I got into with a friend last night on religion... Noah's Ark to be precise.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 28, 2021 11:26:41 GMT -5
I've got to throw my two cents in here... And, for my money, how you answer that question depends on how you interpret the question... In most cases I would consider Amir's measurements to be relatively credible... But I don't necessarily feel that way about his opinions... and that includes both his opinions about equipment design and about sound quality.
Amir likes to take measurements... and measurements are extremely useful. And, as far as I can tell, he usually does a good job taking his measurements, and they seem to be accurate.
However I also agree that he tends to consider measurements, and more specifically certain measurements, to be the be-all and end-all. And he does seem to obsess on measurements far more than even I do (and I've sure been accused of that more than once).
I should also mention at this point that he often provides useful and informative technical details as well...
But he does seem to make some rather odd choices about which measurements to use...
For example, rather than use industry standard "THD" and "S/N ratio" measurements, he prefers to use "SINAD". This is a perfectly reasonable way to measure equipment designed to carry signals - but it's also not at all an industry standard for audio equipment.
(From http://www.electronics-notes.com: "SINAD - Signal to Noise and Distortion is a measure of receiver sensitivity performance used for many radio receivers and radio communications systems.")
In fact, as far as I know, he's pretty much the only person using that specific metric for measuring audio gear.
(I leave it to you whether "SINAD" is "better" - or whether he's just trying to force you to come to him as the only place you can get "SINAD" specs to compare.) I also find that he tends to obsess on his own particular ideas about what specifications are important - and what good specifications signify. For example, I agree with him that a S/N of 120 dB is better than a S/N of 115 dB. But that doesn't necessarily mean that every device with a S/N of 120 dB is better than every device with a S/N or 115 dB. And it certainly doesn't mean that "the device with a S/N or 115 dB is poorly engineered - because they should have been able to get 120 dB with no trouble at all". (He also seems to have an odd habit of comparing the performance of simple devices like DACs to complex devices like processors... as if they were equivalent.) What I do find annoying is the way he takes both sides of some arguments... One minute he's proclaiming, yet again, about how his favorite Topping DAC has better specs than every complex expensive processor on the market... The next he's reiterating that the specs on both are so good that a human being couldn't possibly hear the difference anyway... (So, are the numbers meaningful, or aren't they?) (And, if we can't hear the difference anyway, then why are we bothering to make those measurements?)
And yet, after all that, most of us do still manage to hear at least a slight difference... ASR is mainly about measurements and the guy has a bunch of Kool Aid followers. The way I look at it, whether or not those measurements are correct makes no difference because the ultimate test is in how a component sounds. When purchasing any significant audio gear I try and find as much information as possible and like to read not only the "professional" reviews but also what actual consumers have to say about it, keeping in mind context. I don't think Amir has any agenda and he wants to be objective but he's just one source of information. You could very well ask the same question of this thread topic of any reviewer. Whether they are on the objective or subjective end of a bell curve they're still just one source of information that is up to each of us to evaluate. Also... I think we find the guy to be more credible when we agree with what he has to say, and he is full of it when we don't agree. Just like any other reviewer.  "ASR is mainly about measurements". Exactly, not sound quality, but how one DAC compares to another DAC measurements wise, etc.. How they rate within a particular component type. Russ |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 28, 2021 12:23:18 GMT -5
Thank you, Keith. I agree completely.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 28, 2021 12:36:15 GMT -5
Thank you, Keith. I agree completely. As do I. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 12:38:09 GMT -5
Wow.. I am only on page two of this thread and alreay it reminds me of an argument I got into with a friend last night on religion... Noah's Ark to be precise. I just booked a cruise on Noah’s…….thought it was a safer bet than Carnival That door was shut. So much for the cliche that when one door closes another opens. Tell that to those outside the Ark. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 28, 2021 15:06:07 GMT -5
I've got to jump in on this specific one...
The Schiit Yggdrasil DOES NOT measure especially well (compared to any decent modern D-S DAC)... And that fact is far from being any sort of secret...
However, to be quite candid, when I heard one, it didn't sound bad either... Therefore, arguably, in that particular case, the measurements don't really matter all that much...
At least some people claim to notice the difference... And some of them claim to like the difference... And to like it enough to pay for a Yggdrasil... (And it is a beautifully crafted gadget.)
You don't buy a Yggdrasil because you think it has better THD, or higher S/N, or better linearity than a lower-cost Delta-Sigma DAC... And, likewise, you don't buy a classic car for the mileage, or the awesome air conditioning, or the advanced navigation and music system... You probably have some other reason that makes sense to you...
I also know people who buy Rolex watches... Even though the best mechanical watch ever made DOES NOT keep time as accurately as a good $49 quartz watch...
(And see what you get if you try to play a Dolby TrueHD disc through Amir's favorite Topping STEREO DAC...)
I happen to agree wholeheartedly with Amir that there is far too much audio snake oil in the world... And far too many people buy expensive audiophile gear based on the idea that it performs measurably better...
Even though, in many cases, this isn't actually true... And, if you really do want to base your decision on the numbers, then knowing what the numbers actually are has to benefit your cause... (And maybe keep you from wasting some money.)
If the shoe fits. I proudly wear mine. And by the way I also worked for Arp, Harbinger and Oberheim before I joined the Navy in 1973 where I was trained as a Nuclear electrician and qualified in submarines and as a Navy Diver. Then I got out in 84 and finished my post-grad education and went to work for a series of electronics, audio and silicon valley high-tech companies, taught at three Universities in the SF Bay Area, and worked in radio and TV for a while. I am now semi-retired and manage a team of 24 engineers and project managers for a multi-billion dollar semiconductor equipment company. So yes, I am proud of my background and feel like it gives me a real-world perspective on Internet web site operators that comes from a place other than sitting behind a keyboard. Oh, and by the way, I know one of the founders of Schiit quite well and can assure you that the criticism from Amir toward the Yggdrasil DAC and other products did not motivate them to do anything other than have to defend themselves from his spurious attacks - or perhaps rather, the attacks launched by those who follow ASR. But you don’t understand the measurements?  Why not? Russ BSEE, MSEE Cardion Electronics 1963-1981 Fairchild Camera 1981-1998 Telephonics 1998-2013 |
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Post by Cogito on Jun 28, 2021 20:30:03 GMT -5
Measurements aren't opinions... If he only supplied measurements, this would be true. However he floods his measurement info with his opinions on why he's getting the measurements he's getting, and his opinions on what should, not could, be done to improve those measurements. That being said, there's plenty of room in audio for the Amir's of the world and his followers. More power to him/them. Or... Assuming his measurements methodology are sound, you can formulate your own opinion based upon what measurements matter you. |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Jun 28, 2021 21:44:20 GMT -5
"Technological gee whiz" shows that Boom has no clue and should not waste his time at ASR. ASR performs standard audio measurements for S/N, THD, dynamic range, jitter, linearity, power, etc., same as JA at Stereophile and PM at HiFI News. Russ Well, Russ - that site is the only one that I've ever seen use a "Kippel NFS" for measurements. Now I may be mistaken on that, but as of now, I think I'm right. How much difference is there between the Kippel NFS measurement and the "standard" anechoic chamber one? Kippel NFS of KEF R3 (source = www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-r3-vs-r5.19758/ ): Anechoic of KEF R3 (source = www.hifinews.com/content/kef-r3-loudspeaker-lab-report ) If anything, I'd think that, at least in this case, the ASR graph is more likely correct - BUT... The discrepancy (not unique to this speaker) calls into question both, yes? Relative measurement is really the value of ASR. No one can claim ownership to absolute measurement. ASR provides consistent comparative measurement across many devices. That has value! |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 29, 2021 0:35:24 GMT -5
...ASR provides consistent comparative measurement across many devices. That has value! If Kippel NFS is so valuable, why aren't others using it too? I know of no manufacturer, review entity, or major testing lab that uses this technology. Now it's possible that I'm just ignorant of the device's penetration of the testing market, but it seems more likely that this is some unique method that has problems. Consistency alone isn't much of a virtue. I could measure with my iPhone and claim that it not only works with many devices but also that it is highly consistent. |
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Post by jackpine on Jun 29, 2021 5:14:34 GMT -5
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Post by garbulky on Jun 29, 2021 11:34:24 GMT -5
...ASR provides consistent comparative measurement across many devices. That has value! If Kippel NFS is so valuable, why aren't others using it too? I know of no manufacturer, review entity, or major testing lab that uses this technology. Now it's possible that I'm just ignorant of the device's penetration of the testing market, but it seems more likely that this is some unique method that has problems. Consistency alone isn't much of a virtue. I could measure with my iPhone and claim that it not only works with many devices but also that it is highly consistent. The Kippel is a pretty sophisticated robotic system. I believe it costs something like $100k. Or at least more than $20k. The reason most reviewers don't use it is probably the price. Does it mean it's accurate? I don't know. But its advantage is that it is automatic and that is important because there's only one guy (and a few other minor contributors) reviewing stuff there. So if he can just set the speaker on a mount and have the system do all the measurement that would save hours or days of measurement time. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 29, 2021 12:19:26 GMT -5
It looks like a pretty cool gadget...and it may not be quite as expensive as we suspect.
It also looks like it provides lots of useful information... One catch is that the information it provides may not correlate very well with information obtained using other methods... In which case, while it may be very useful to a designer, or a manufacturer, it has limited usefulness unless a LOT of people start using them. Even its value to a reviewer is limited because, while it may allow him to make excellent comparisons between products he reviews, those reviews won't be comparable to OTHER reviews.
Likewise, I do not personally agree with Amir that SINAD is an especially great way to compare audio gear... But what really matters is that, since nobody else uses it, it doesn't allow you to compare his reviews with anybody else's...
(Remember the "Power Cube"...?)
There's also the question of how well those measurements serve to enable you to determine how a speaker will sound in a particular room. Manufacturers rarely publish polar frequency response and dispersion plots... One reason is that they are in fact a nuisance to generate... But another reason is that very few customers would gain any useful information from them... So the only time you're likely to see one is when some manufacturer is especially proud of what it shows... and hopes to be able to explain to you why it's important.
There's also what I would think of as a "meta-problem" there... If you read the advertisements in a magazine like Stereophile you will see MANY claims about how this or that vendor does something they think is wonderful... And they then spend a whole page, or even a website, with lots of pretty pictures, trying to convince you that it's important... So and so makes their speaker wires out of "mono-crystal copper" - and explains how important it is to eliminate "crystal boundaries that act like little speed bumps to the electrons"... And someone else uses cotton insulation "because the organic molecules have lower hysteresis than plastic"... And an R2R DAC is supposed to sound better "because it converts all the numbers at once instead of sequentially"... And there was actually a speaker manufacturer who claimed that "a speaker cabinet should resonate like the body of the violin it's reproducing"...
And, to be quite blunt, some of those ideas have some technical merit, some have none whatsoever, and some just suggest a long history of heavy drug use. The problem is that many of them "sound good on paper" - but we have no way of evaluating how well they work IN PRACTICE.
So.... That Kippel gadget looks like it might be able to provide all sorts of useful information... And, regardless of the price, it's got to be more convenient than a big anechoic chamber, and thousands of manual measurements... But, to be honest, I'm not enough of a mathematician to be able to say that all of their mathematical theory is valid... It could be dead on... or there could be limitations and weaknesses that I'm not qualified to notice.
(Impulse convolvance is incredibly accurate - at least theoretically - and assuming a linear environment - but it has serious limitations in a non-linear environment.) And, beyond even that, there's a huge grey area about what the results of the measurements mean in terms of real world performance. (I'm not sure it would tell us anything we need or care to know about designing our speakers - or would help YOU figure out how they would sound in YOUR living room.)
If Kippel NFS is so valuable, why aren't others using it too? I know of no manufacturer, review entity, or major testing lab that uses this technology. Now it's possible that I'm just ignorant of the device's penetration of the testing market, but it seems more likely that this is some unique method that has problems. Consistency alone isn't much of a virtue. I could measure with my iPhone and claim that it not only works with many devices but also that it is highly consistent. The Kippel is a pretty sophisticated robotic system. I believe it costs something like $100k. Or at least more than $20k. The reason most reviewers don't use it is probably the price. Does it mean it's accurate? I don't know. But its advantage is that it is automatic and that is important because there's only one guy (and a few other minor contributors) reviewing stuff there. So if he can just set the speaker on a mount and have the system do all the measurement that would save hours or days of measurement time. |
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Post by MusicHead on Jun 29, 2021 15:14:27 GMT -5
It looks like a pretty cool gadget...and it may not be quite as expensive as we suspect.
It also looks like it provides lots of useful information... One catch is that the information it provides may not correlate very well with information obtained using other methods... In which case, while it may be very useful to a designer, or a manufacturer, it has limited usefulness unless a LOT of people start using them. Even its value to a reviewer is limited because, while it may allow him to make excellent comparisons between products he reviews, those reviews won't be comparable to OTHER reviews.
Likewise, I do not personally agree with Amir that SINAD is an especially great way to compare audio gear... But what really matters is that, since nobody else uses it, it doesn't allow you to compare his reviews with anybody else's...
(Remember the "Power Cube"...?)
There's also the question of how well those measurements serve to enable you to determine how a speaker will sound in a particular room. Manufacturers rarely publish polar frequency response and dispersion plots... One reason is that they are in fact a nuisance to generate... But another reason is that very few customers would gain any useful information from them... So the only time you're likely to see one is when some manufacturer is especially proud of what it shows... and hopes to be able to explain to you why it's important.
There's also what I would think of as a "meta-problem" there... If you read the advertisements in a magazine like Stereophile you will see MANY claims about how this or that vendor does something they think is wonderful... And they then spend a whole page, or even a website, with lots of pretty pictures, trying to convince you that it's important... So and so makes their speaker wires out of "mono-crystal copper" - and explains how important it is to eliminate "crystal boundaries that act like little speed bumps to the electrons"... And someone else uses cotton insulation "because the organic molecules have lower hysteresis than plastic"... And an R2R DAC is supposed to sound better "because it converts all the numbers at once instead of sequentially"... And there was actually a speaker manufacturer who claimed that "a speaker cabinet should resonate like the body of the violin it's reproducing"...
And, to be quite blunt, some of those ideas have some technical merit, some have none whatsoever, and some just suggest a long history of heavy drug use. The problem is that many of them "sound good on paper" - but we have no way of evaluating how well they work IN PRACTICE.
So.... That Kippel gadget looks like it might be able to provide all sorts of useful information... And, regardless of the price, it's got to be more convenient than a big anechoic chamber, and thousands of manual measurements... But, to be honest, I'm not enough of a mathematician to be able to say that all of their mathematical theory is valid... It could be dead on... or there could be limitations and weaknesses that I'm not qualified to notice.
(Impulse convolvance is incredibly accurate - at least theoretically - and assuming a linear environment - but it has serious limitations in a non-linear environment.) And, beyond even that, there's a huge grey area about what the results of the measurements mean in terms of real world performance. (I'm not sure it would tell us anything we need or care to know about designing our speakers - or would help YOU figure out how they would sound in YOUR living room.)
The Kippel is a pretty sophisticated robotic system. I believe it costs something like $100k. Or at least more than $20k. The reason most reviewers don't use it is probably the price. Does it mean it's accurate? I don't know. But its advantage is that it is automatic and that is important because there's only one guy (and a few other minor contributors) reviewing stuff there. So if he can just set the speaker on a mount and have the system do all the measurement that would save hours or days of measurement time. "Impulse convolvance" sounds like one of those terms a marketer just cannot resist  . I wonder how long it will be before we see it in an ad!! |
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Why not?
. I wonder how long it will be before we see it in an ad!!