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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 10:47:15 GMT -5
They found a significant problem with the early Fimware for the RMC-1, after first dismissing it, Emotiva went back and found the problem. I’d say they have value, especially because they do follow a scientific method. Admittedly, I have not read many of their reviews, I did read a lot regarding the RMC-1, in my opinion they are another valid source of information about equipment. What has caused you to question them? They also helped Schiit resolve a problem with one of their units. ASR is good for our hobby. They're quietly forcing manufacturers to do a better engineering job with better measurements (although not necceessarily better sound). Three four hundred dollar DACs can measure perfectly, why can't three four five thousand dollar DACs do the same? It's just a little extra work. Russ I think the least that could be said is that Amir pointed to an issue and offered a remedy. Whether or not Schiit credits Amir is meaningless to his reputation - there's truth in what Amir pointed out. Some manufacturers don't receive feedback very well while others are quite receptive. We see this in the Chinese electronic market whose equipment is taking over the top tier spec wise. |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 27, 2021 10:48:13 GMT -5
They found a significant problem with the early Fimware for the RMC-1, after first dismissing it, Emotiva went back and found the problem. I’d say they have value, especially because they do follow a scientific method. Admittedly, I have not read many of their reviews, I did read a lot regarding the RMC-1, in my opinion they are another valid source of information about equipment. What has caused you to question them? I've read criticism of their methods and the fact that even the site owner admits that sometimes he finds equipment that measures far better than it sounds. This "disconnect" between measurements and audible performance is something that I've always noted, but had no way to quantify. So my bottom line is "just how much credence should I place in measurements in general and in that website's measurements, in particular?" Criticism of their methods are by people that have no technical chops; ASR measurements are spot on, and as I already said, basically the same as JA at Stereophile and PM at HiFi News. ASR measures for measurements sake, not for sound quality and has never said a piece of equipments sounds poor based on measurements, or the reverse, sounds good based on measurements. ASR is a highly quantitative site, not a subjective one. And the forum members are extremely knowledgeable, many times adding their own supporting or additional measurements. Not a site for novices. Russ |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 27, 2021 10:50:45 GMT -5
ASR is not a source for any meaningful information in my opinion. It is a good source for opinion mostly driven by one person. No opinion, just measurements. You think he's faking the results? I'm really surprised you said that since I believe, based on many of your posts, the you do have technical chops. Russ |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 10:52:02 GMT -5
I've read criticism of their methods and the fact that even the site owner admits that sometimes he finds equipment that measures far better than it sounds. This "disconnect" between measurements and audible performance is something that I've always noted, but had no way to quantify. So my bottom line is "just how much credence should I place in measurements in general and in that website's measurements, in particular?" Criticism of their methods are by people that have no technical chops; ASR measurements are spot on, and as I already said, basically the same as JA at Stereophile and PM at HiFi News. ASR measures for measurements sake, not for sound quality and has never said a piece of equipments sounds poor based on measurements, or the reverse, sounds good based on measurements. ASR is a highly quantitative site, not a subjective one. And the forum members are extremely knowledgeable, many times adding their own supporting or additional measurements. Not a site for novices.Russ Ha! I considered myself not a novice but a beginner when entering ASR. I think ASR and most members on ASR are a wonderful source to "learn" from especially for discerning types. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 27, 2021 10:55:04 GMT -5
"Technological gee whiz"  shows that Boom has no clue and should not waste his time at ASR. ASR performs standard audio measurements for S/N, THD, dynamic range, jitter, linearity, power, etc., same as JA at Stereophile and PM at HiFI News. Russ Well, Russ - that site is the only one that I've ever seen use a "Kippel NFS" for measurements. Now I may be mistaken on that, but as of now, I think I'm right. How much difference is there between the Kippel NFS measurement and the "standard" anechoic chamber one? Kippel NFS of KEF R3 (source = www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-r3-vs-r5.19758/ ): Anechoic of KEF R3 (source = www.hifinews.com/content/kef-r3-loudspeaker-lab-report ) If anything, I'd think that, at least in this case, the ASR graph is more likely correct - BUT... The discrepancy (not unique to this speaker) calls into question both, yes? |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 27, 2021 10:56:57 GMT -5
ASR is mainly about measurements and the guy has a bunch of Kool Aid followers. The way I look at it, whether or not those measurements are correct makes no difference because the ultimate test is in how a component sounds. When purchasing any significant audio gear I try and find as much information as possible and like to read not only the "professional" reviews but also what actual consumers have to say about it, keeping in mind context. I don't think Amir has any agenda and he wants to be objective but he's just one source of information. You could very well ask the same question of this thread topic of any reviewer. Whether they are on the objective or subjective end of a bell curve they're still just one source of information that is up to each of us to evaluate. Also... I think we find the guy to be more credible when we agree with what he has to say, and he is full of it when we don't agree. Just like any other reviewer.  "ASR is mainly about measurements". Exactly, not sound quality, but how one DAC compares to another DAC measurements wise, etc.. How they rate within a particular component type. Russ |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 11:01:40 GMT -5
"Technological gee whiz" shows that Boom has no clue and should not waste his time at ASR. ASR performs standard audio measurements for S/N, THD, dynamic range, jitter, linearity, power, etc., same as JA at Stereophile and PM at HiFI News. Russ Well, Russ - that site is the only one that I've ever seen use a "Kippel NFS" for measurements. Now I may be mistaken on that, but as of now, I think I'm right. How much difference is there between the Kippel NFS measurement and the "standard" anechoic chamber one? Kippel NFS of KEF R3 (source = www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-r3-vs-r5.19758/ ): Anechoic of KEF R3 (source = www.hifinews.com/content/kef-r3-loudspeaker-lab-report ) If anything, I'd think that, at least in this case, the ASR graph is more likely correct - BUT... The discrepancy (not unique to this speaker) calls into question both, yes? No more or less than reviewers which do not test in an anechoic chamber. The point is meaningless to contrast if an anechoic chamber or the exact same design are not the standard in testing. I'm not suggesting that I even understand what Kippel NFS is, but I consider it one more piece of information if offered across various products to be additional information. And, lastly, the biggest discrepancy which is glaringly staring at us is not following the scientific method. For example, if the manufacturer offered anechoic chamber specifications then to peer review the product the exact same methods and conditions must be "repeated". That is, the scientific method entails observation, testability, and repeatability. |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 27, 2021 11:04:08 GMT -5
Besides the desperate need to be right, one agenda that often seems apparent in Amir's judgements is he seems to own a piece of the company Topping since he thinks they can do no wrong. But I might be reading too much into it. Bottom line for me is to ignore everything that he says. It's often wrong and always biased. And the measurement methodology employed may or may not be correct (and the test gear may or may not be calibrated) but who knows since he refuses to divulge his methods and there is no evidence he has been trained in a lab. Just because he bought an Avermetrics unit (or whatever audio analyzer he uses) does not mean he knows how to obtain the proper results. You need to read his background listed on his site. He's held positions at the very highest levels at Sony and Microsoft, amongst others. He's a brilliant guy using the industry standard analyzer for his measurements and has helped Emotiva with their use of the same equipment. Not calibrated Thats the best you got.  Russ |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 27, 2021 11:15:43 GMT -5
"Technological gee whiz" shows that Boom has no clue and should not waste his time at ASR. ASR performs standard audio measurements for S/N, THD, dynamic range, jitter, linearity, power, etc., same as JA at Stereophile and PM at HiFI News. Russ Well, Russ - that site is the only one that I've ever seen use a "Kippel NFS" for measurements. Now I may be mistaken on that, but as of now, I think I'm right. How much difference is there between the Kippel NFS measurement and the "standard" anechoic chamber one? Kippel NFS of KEF R3 (source = www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-r3-vs-r5.19758/ ): Anechoic of KEF R3 (source = www.hifinews.com/content/kef-r3-loudspeaker-lab-report ) If anything, I'd think that, at least in this case, the ASR graph is more likely correct - BUT... The discrepancy (not unique to this speaker) calls into question both, yes? The only other speaker measurements are by JA and PM. JA's measurements are taken outdoors, not sure about PM but also outdoors I believe. The measurements you provide are apples to oranges. ASR are on and off axis performance up to 20K. PM's measurements are on axis up to 40K. Drop back to 20K and pretty much replicate the ASR measurements on axis. Individuals cannot afford anechoic chambers. Russ |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 11:22:59 GMT -5
Well, Russ - that site is the only one that I've ever seen use a "Kippel NFS" for measurements. Now I may be mistaken on that, but as of now, I think I'm right. How much difference is there between the Kippel NFS measurement and the "standard" anechoic chamber one? Kippel NFS of KEF R3 (source = www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-r3-vs-r5.19758/ ):
Anechoic of KEF R3 (source = www.hifinews.com/content/kef-r3-loudspeaker-lab-report )
If anything, I'd think that, at least in this case, the ASR graph is more likely correct - BUT... The discrepancy (not unique to this speaker) calls into question both, yes? The only other speaker measurements are by JA and PM. JA's measurements are taken outdoors, not sure about PM but also outdoors I believe. The measurements you provide are apples to oranges. ASR are on and off axis performance up to 20K. PM's measurements are on axis up to 40K. Drop back to 20K and pretty much replicate the ASR measurements on axis. Individuals cannot afford anechoic chambers. Russ Not to mention nobody sets up speakers in an anechoic chamber to enjoy music. The anechoic question is something to learn from though - shows how much variation can exists from one chamber to another one tester to another which translates to variations in rooms and listeners. Never really thought about it until now - which shows how this thread's civil discussion results in fruitfulness regarding our mutual interests in our hobby. I think the best that can be said on why measurements matter is it shows the "maximum potential" a piece of electronic may achieve. Other variables such as rooms or chain components can only maintain a piece of equipment's maximum potential. If the piece of equipment is lackluster in contrast to other equipment in an audio chain than the whole audio chain will suffer that one piece of equipment. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 27, 2021 11:23:55 GMT -5
Besides the desperate need to be right, one agenda that often seems apparent in Amir's judgements is he seems to own a piece of the company Topping since he thinks they can do no wrong. But I might be reading too much into it. Bottom line for me is to ignore everything that he says. It's often wrong and always biased. And the measurement methodology employed may or may not be correct (and the test gear may or may not be calibrated) but who knows since he refuses to divulge his methods and there is no evidence he has been trained in a lab. Just because he bought an Avermetrics unit (or whatever audio analyzer he uses) does not mean he knows how to obtain the proper results. You need to read his background listed on his site. He's held positions at the very highest levels at Sony and Microsoft, amongst others. He's a brilliant guy using the industry standard analyzer for his measurements and has helped Emotiva with their use of the same equipment. Not calibrated Thats the best you got. Russ I designed loudspeakers for Sony in the 90's. I worked in the THX test lab. I designed for Creative Labs and Logitech. I know what a good test protocol is. I have seen no evidence that they use such on ASR. I could be wrong, of course, but when asked for proof of methodology he needs to bring it, not me. He is far too quick to make sweeping generalizations based on his results, as are the minions who follow that site. I tried it and left (same at SBAF and Home Theater Shack, where I was a moderator for a while.) When ideology or bias gets in the way of sound judgement, it's not for me and it has very little to do with "science." |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 11:35:17 GMT -5
You need to read his background listed on his site. He's held positions at the very highest levels at Sony and Microsoft, amongst others. He's a brilliant guy using the industry standard analyzer for his measurements and has helped Emotiva with their use of the same equipment. Not calibrated Thats the best you got. Russ I designed loudspeakers for Sony in the 90's. I worked in the THX test lab. I designed for Creative Labs and Logitech. I know what a good test protocol is. I have seen no evidence that they use such on ASR. I could be wrong, of course, but when asked for proof of methodology he needs to bring it, not me. He is far too quick to make sweeping generalizations based on his results, as are the minions who follow that site. I tried it and left (same at SBAF and Home Theater Shack, where I was a moderator for a while.) When ideology or bias gets in the way of sound judgement, it's not for me and it has very little to do with "science." Just pointing out that the CDC only recently discerned between dying from or with CV. Point being is depravity makes intelligent people seem unintelligent. The ideology and bias you mention are presuppositions. For example, the presupposition that people are capable of "sound judgment". I always am entertained by agnostics. That is the very definition of ignorance. Demonstrating humility and humbleness to admit when someone doesn't "know". The question in my mind is whether anyone is truly agnostic? Should we abandon everything we learned entering into an experience? If so, when? Always? Therefore, a time for rational prejudice exists. In other words someone less than credible has the burden of gaining credibility rather than appealing to another to set aside rationality. "He is far too quick to make sweeping generalizations based on his results, as are the minions who follow that site." - Dyohn The above quote is the type of sweeping generalizations one may observe you projecting upon others Dyohn. I question the standard by which you measure not only others but yourself. |
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Post by DYohn on Jun 27, 2021 11:44:52 GMT -5
"He is far too quick to make sweeping generalizations based on his results, as are the minions who follow that site." - Dyohn The above quote is the type of sweeping generalizations one may observe you projecting upon others Dyohn. I question the standard by which you measure not only others but yourself. Guilty. Feel better? I stand by my statement. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 11:46:58 GMT -5
"He is far too quick to make sweeping generalizations based on his results, as are the minions who follow that site." - Dyohn The above quote is the type of sweeping generalizations one may observe you projecting upon others Dyohn. I question the standard by which you measure not only others but yourself. Guilty. Feel better? I stand by my statement. Argumentative people always dig and entrench their heels in. The objective in such minds are to win an argument rather than bring everyone else closer to the truth. How I feel is irrelevant and only means something to people who only care about how they feel in the moment - separating emotion from the topic or subject matter helps obtain objectivity. |
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Post by DYohn on Jun 27, 2021 11:56:38 GMT -5
Guilty. Feel better? I stand by my statement. Argumentative people always dig and entrench their heels in. The objective in such minds are to win a debate rather than bring everyone else closer to the truth. How I feel is irrelevant and only means something to people who only care about how they feel in the moment - separating emotion from the topic or subject matter helps obtain objectivity. You've been reading L. Ron Hubbard. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 12:08:46 GMT -5
Argumentative people always dig and entrench their heels in. The objective in such minds are to win a debate rather than bring everyone else closer to the truth. How I feel is irrelevant and only means something to people who only care about how they feel in the moment - separating emotion from the topic or subject matter helps obtain objectivity. You've been reading L. Ron Hubbard. Not many tactics you'll not stoop to in order to win your argument? First you turn to the companies you worked for to gain credibility. Then you attempt to discredit another by associating them w/ a non credible cultist author. |
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Post by Lsc on Jun 27, 2021 12:24:19 GMT -5
In my particular case, I’m a big fan of Revel speakers and so is ASR.
While that site and others have no love for the Emotiva processors, the RMC1 and XMC1 are among 2 the highest measuring processors they have.
I offered to send my XMC2 in but asked Amir to not just test the L/R but also one of the surround channels to see if there is anything to the mono mode vs stereo mode but he said he was backed up and to hit him up in a month.
So I took that as a polite no thanks. Lol. Since then he had tested a couple high end processors and they barely scored above the RMC1 so who knows. I saw a couple of Denons that scored high too so that actually takes some credibility away from the RMC1. It’s mixed bag.
All just entertainment and a hobby.
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Post by DYohn on Jun 27, 2021 12:25:27 GMT -5
If the shoe fits. I proudly wear mine.
And by the way I also worked for Arp, Harbinger and Oberheim before I joined the Navy in 1973 where I was trained as a Nuclear electrician and qualified in submarines and as a Navy Diver. Then I got out in 84 and finished my post-grad education and went to work for a series of electronics, audio and silicon valley high-tech companies, taught at three Universities in the SF Bay Area, and worked in radio and TV for a while. I am now semi-retired and manage a team of 24 engineers and project managers for a multi-billion dollar semiconductor equipment company. So yes, I am proud of my background and feel like it gives me a real-world perspective on Internet web site operators that comes from a place other than sitting behind a keyboard.
Oh, and by the way, I know one of the founders of Schiit quite well and can assure you that the criticism from Amir toward the Yggdrasil DAC and other products did not motivate them to do anything other than have to defend themselves from his spurious attacks - or perhaps rather, the attacks launched by those who follow ASR.
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 27, 2021 17:53:28 GMT -5
You need to read his background listed on his site. He's held positions at the very highest levels at Sony and Microsoft, amongst others. He's a brilliant guy using the industry standard analyzer for his measurements and has helped Emotiva with their use of the same equipment. Not calibrated Thats the best you got. Russ I designed loudspeakers for Sony in the 90's. I worked in the THX test lab. I designed for Creative Labs and Logitech. I know what a good test protocol is. I have seen no evidence that they use such on ASR. I could be wrong, of course, but when asked for proof of methodology he needs to bring it, not me. He is far too quick to make sweeping generalizations based on his results, as are the minions who follow that site. I tried it and left (same at SBAF and Home Theater Shack, where I was a moderator for a while.) When ideology or bias gets in the way of sound judgement, it's not for me and it has very little to do with "science." DYohn - you’ve lost all credibility in my eyes. Your post above indicates to me that you’ve never been to the ASR site, or your clueless to how he performs his measurements. His measurements are standardized, repeatable, and invariant electronic device to electronic device, or speaker to speaker. No one has asked for proof of his “methodology” because it’s right before everyone’s eyes. AND, if indeed you’ve been to the site, you would know it provides videos describing his analyzer, how it works and then he explains each measurement and it’s potential impact on the sound we hear. Russ |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 27, 2021 18:03:44 GMT -5
If the shoe fits. I proudly wear mine. And by the way I also worked for Arp, Harbinger and Oberheim before I joined the Navy in 1973 where I was trained as a Nuclear electrician and qualified in submarines and as a Navy Diver. Then I got out in 84 and finished my post-grad education and went to work for a series of electronics, audio and silicon valley high-tech companies, taught at three Universities in the SF Bay Area, and worked in radio and TV for a while. I am now semi-retired and manage a team of 24 engineers and project managers for a multi-billion dollar semiconductor equipment company. So yes, I am proud of my background and feel like it gives me a real-world perspective on Internet web site operators that comes from a place other than sitting behind a keyboard. Oh, and by the way, I know one of the founders of Schiit quite well and can assure you that the criticism from Amir toward the Yggdrasil DAC and other products did not motivate them to do anything other than have to defend themselves from his spurious attacks - or perhaps rather, the attacks launched by those who follow ASR. But you don’t understand the measurements? Why not? Russ BSEE, MSEE Cardion Electronics 1963-1981 Fairchild Camera 1981-1998 Telephonics 1998-2013 |
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shows that Boom has no clue and should not waste his time at ASR. ASR performs standard audio measurements for S/N, THD, dynamic range, jitter, linearity, power, etc., same as JA at Stereophile and PM at HiFI News.
