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Post by goodfellas27 on Jul 19, 2021 10:05:02 GMT -5
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Post by goodfellas27 on Jul 19, 2021 10:40:13 GMT -5
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Post by tabbycph on Jul 19, 2021 10:54:04 GMT -5
Bad bad, I have both a DR2 and DR 3.
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Post by goodfellas27 on Jul 19, 2021 10:58:05 GMT -5
If you're happy, it is not bad :-) But this could scare off potential buyers. Emotiva should address it. Bad bad, I have both a DR2 and DR 3. |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 19, 2021 11:01:09 GMT -5
I mean... is it bad stuff? Like in real world use? The switching bump is pretty minor in my opinion. He is measuring SINAD which isn't typically used for audio gear. Clearly the spray of harmonics is NOT what you would want in a "reference" amp so it's not going to win awards here. Especially its 5 watt output is "ehhh". But it does keep THD below 0.1%.  The SNR is pretty good as he notes.  But yeah, I was hoping it would measure much better than the non-dr gen 3 which also had poor distortion specs. Hopefully it doesn't sound quite the same as the single blade gen 3 as I didn't care for that sound. |
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Post by goodfellas27 on Jul 19, 2021 11:06:31 GMT -5
This "reference" unit are having apparent issues with a constant glitch around 20 to 50 watts which I am assuming is the amplifier switching rails to higher voltage. Also, we have rising distortion as seen in the previous graphs even at low power.  I mean... is it bad stuff? Like in real world use? The switching bump is pretty minor in my opinion. He is measuring SINAD which isn't typically used for audio gear. Clearly the spray of harmonics is NOT what you would want in a "reference" amp so it's not going to win awards here. Especially its 5 watt output is "ehhh". But it does keep THD below 0.1%. The SNR is pretty good as he notes. But yeah, I was hoping it would measure much better than the non-dr gen 3 which also had poor distortion specs. Hopefully it doesn't sound quite the same as the single blade gen 3 as I didn't care for that sound. |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 19, 2021 11:13:53 GMT -5
It's not "glitching". That's how the rails work. That distortion bump is small. A bigger issue is the overall distortion spikes. The "rising distortion" is also very minor. The bigger issue is the overal distortion which just isn't that good at least compared to the competition.  The rising distortion doesn't mean it's straining the amp at low values. You can see it blowing right past the Benchmark amp's substantial power output. Amir used to say the amp clips the moment the distortion starts to rise. Which is a rather iffy interpretation especially considering the amp is able to deliver many hundreds of watts past that at inaudible levels. I would say "when it starts to rise sharply" is clipping not this gentle lazy slope I'm seeing.  And look at that peak power  Speaking of power. The Hypex NC400 and other great low measuring amps that are supposed to produce 400 watts of power etc only produce about 40 watts of power under load due to thermal restrictions. I asked Amir to see how long the XPA amp can hold up. It's going to be a toss up. It has a tiny switching power supply so there's only so much dissipation it can do but it's also efficient - so maybe it will hold up. But yeah, the problem is that we have a new generation of amps which have substantially lower distortion values, some getting to distortion levels of DACs. I mean look at this amazing stuff!  And Emotiva stuck with the old world amps where below 70db is considered just fine. Not that great in comparison. But does it truly translate to better sound? Hmmm. They will need to refine their circuits if they want to compete in distortion levels. And unfortunately that distortion spkke at -65 db is sort of getting to the edge of somebody possibly being able to hear it. I still wouldn't hear it. I don't think I hear much even at -45 db. |
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator 
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,850
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Post by LCSeminole on Jul 19, 2021 11:35:03 GMT -5
Bad bad, I have both a DR2 and DR 3. What you’ve been hearing last week is what you are hearing this week with your DR2/DR3, so keep on enjoying!  |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Jul 19, 2021 11:45:00 GMT -5
So, let's see now, THD of 0.07% at 5 watts... on an amplifier that can deliver over 700 watts... and this is supposed to be so awful WHY?
If you're trying to find the world's best numbers...
I believe the current record for "lowest THD" is held by Halcro... (they start around $40k) And perhaps someday Amir will design an even better one...
In the mean time... if you want an amplifier to listen to... pretty well everyone we know is quite pleased with our XPA-DR series...
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Post by goodfellas27 on Jul 19, 2021 11:50:13 GMT -5
I no expert by far. You should see Amir's accolades .See what he is all about. Big Dan and the Emotiva crew know him well as the rest of the industry. I think his finding has weight, but that's just me. |
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cawgijoe
Emo VIPs 
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,033
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Post by cawgijoe on Jul 19, 2021 11:56:53 GMT -5
I no expert by far. You should see Amir's accolades .See what he is all about. Big Dan and the Emotiva crew know him well as the rest of the industry. I think his finding has weight, but that's just me. I had never heard of Amir or ASR prior to reading about him on this forum. I went to ASR afterwards once or twice and have not been back since. He does have rabid followers. |
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Post by goodfellas27 on Jul 19, 2021 12:01:30 GMT -5
Look at the whole picture @keithl: Why are you cherry-picking numbers? Why not address the rail "glitch" or the SIAND result? I am not "looking for the best numbers." I am just sharing a review by Amir and sharing my opinion and experience. You come out snarky. If I were you, I would ask Amir how to address this in your next amp, like your team did with the RMC-1. So, let's see now, THD of 0.07% at 5 watts... on an amplifier that can deliver over 700 watts... and this is supposed to be so awful WHY?
If you're trying to find the world's best numbers...
I believe the current record for "lowest THD" is held by Halcro... (they start around $40k) And perhaps someday Amir will design an even better one...
In the mean time... if you want an amplifier to listen to... pretty well everyone we know is quite pleased with our XPA-DR series...
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Jul 19, 2021 12:05:26 GMT -5
Amir is absolutely convinced that numbers are everything... And he also has some... unusual... ideas about which numbers matter and how much... (For example he is the only person or company I am aware of who uses SINAD to measure audio equipment.)
Amir is quite useful as a source of measurement data... and reviews based on measurements...
We also assume that, since he is not supported by commercial advertisers, he is relatively unbiased in that regard...
He is also a reasonably accurate and quite useful source of engineering design "wisdom"... But also note that, as a reviewer, he gains market share both by providing data, and by encouraging controversy and discussion.
So, yes, that makes him an asset to the world of audiophilia... And a very useful source of data that can be used to debunk all sorts of audiophile myths and snake oil... However note that his finding says nothing about what the XPA-DR sounds like...
(And, while too much distortion can be a problem, we are not in a contest to produce the world's lowest distortion amplifier.)
I no expert by far. You should see Amir's accolades .See what he is all about. Big Dan and the Emotiva crew know him well as the rest of the industry. I think his finding has weight, but that's just me. |
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Post by brutiarti on Jul 19, 2021 12:24:44 GMT -5
You can buy several Topping amps for the price of an Emo amp.
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Post by goodfellas27 on Jul 19, 2021 12:41:32 GMT -5
They make amps? You can buy several Topping amps for the price of an Emo amp. |
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Post by teaman on Jul 19, 2021 12:44:08 GMT -5
I remember a not too flattering review by Sound&Vision also, where I believe the measurements on an XPA-5 Gen 3 were out of whack. I also remember Dan coming in here after the review mentioning he was going to reach out to them to address the inconsistencies. I read them monthly, and have never seen any rebuttal from Dan or anyone else in regards to their findings.
I don't own a Gen 3 amp, and doubt I ever will, as I am quite happy with my plethora of Gen 1 and 2 amps in my stable. I remember though that the THD was quite low on the first two generations of amps, and usually had test results posted to prove it. When Bryston amps can offer .004% THD in a 250 wpc amp into 8 ohms, I don't think distortion should be looked at as a non issue. It should be addressed promptly, and if design changes need to be made....make them. I realize Bryston costs significantly more than the Emotiva, but I believe this company still needs to reach for further refinement in order to stay relevant and in demand. The more poor reviews make their ways around the AV scene, the worse the reputation becomes.
I think in the past Dan, Kathy, Keith and Lonnie have always been welcoming of criticism and have strived to do better, I hope that is still the case moving forward...because I still refer a lot of people in here!
Tim
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Post by tropicallutefisk on Jul 19, 2021 12:44:10 GMT -5
Oh good grief. How does this Amir guy keep finding groupies? Over the years I have read several of his "reviews", and have yet to be impressed. There's a big difference between measuring certain parameters and properly interpreting the results. This is why I have yet to put any weight behind an ASR review. Yes, I'm aware he supposedly has great credentials, cool equipment and is supposedly very intelligent. However, these things still don't necessarily lend to a qualified interpretation of the data.
I own three DR1s and I'm quite pleased with their performance. Are there better amps out there? I'm sure there are. However, for my budget and for my system the DR1s are performing quite well. And, yes, I have had other amps in my system. One was a well known mid fi brand and the other a well known hi end brand. Also, I can say distortion is not an issue.
As for Emotiva's need to address... I'd say its best to ignore. Very few people put much stock in his reviews and those that do are pretty much Amir hero worshipers and unlikely to be swayed. Best to let his reviews remain obscure rather than highlight them.
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Post by teaman on Jul 19, 2021 12:46:28 GMT -5
You can buy several Topping amps for the price of an Emo amp. Did you really just try to compare a 70 watt per channel amp against a 450 watt amp in price? |
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Post by audiobill on Jul 19, 2021 12:47:22 GMT -5
Use your ears, not your eyes to make judgments about sonics.
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Post by brutiarti on Jul 19, 2021 12:48:29 GMT -5
You can buy several Topping amps for the price of an Emo amp. Did you really just try to compare a 70 watt per channel amp against a 450 watt amp in price? I was being sarcastic  |
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