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Post by bobfriedman on Aug 12, 2021 0:02:04 GMT -5
still no reply from Emotiva technical guys.... disappointed
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 12, 2021 3:45:52 GMT -5
still no reply from Emotiva technical guys.... disappointed Keith actually made several comments, I would call him a technical guy. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 12, 2021 9:53:55 GMT -5
There's an actual legitimate medical condition called "synaesthesia"... (also caused by some recreational drugs like LSD).
It's where sensory inputs get crossed up, and misinterpreted as the wrong sense, so you may start "tasting colors" or "seeing sounds"...
Perhaps "hearing graphs" is just another, previously unknown, form of this condition...  (But seriously, measurements can be very useful, it's just that they should never be mistaken for a goal in and of themselves.)
I'm told that competitions are actually held for "loudest sound system in a pickup truck"... The systems in the competition are all operated, by remote control, from outside and at a safe distance... Because they are so loud they would at least deafen anyone exposed to them at anywhere near full power... (I'm told that they occasionally succeed in blowing out windows...)
I guess they're fun if you like that sort of thing... But, personally, I'd prefer to actually listen to my music... 
I have a dr2 and cant hear any distortion..... If I should complain about something, that is the sound which is a bit flat compared to xpr5. I compared them directly towards each other and in my opinion the xpr5 was a hair better. Even though the xpr5 had a very low hiss, the dr2 was dead silent. But xpr5 had a bit more warmt in my system. But the difference was very little 😁 My xpr5 has been sold and replaced with a Ati 6005..... Very suble difference and the ati wins by very little.... Not enough compared to the price. Not tried to compare the dr2 to 6005 yet. Maybe when the winter is coming. As others say in hier.... There are better amps than dr2. But you have to pay shitloads for it. The dr2 can drive hard speakers with ease.... And I am happy with it 😎 Yes it may sound good for the price, but look at those charts posted in this thread! How on earth can you think it sounds good, you must have bad ears! (PS all of this is sarcasm as I think the DR-2 is solid as can be for its price) |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 12, 2021 9:56:08 GMT -5
Despair not...
The Emersa line, by that name, is pretty well on permanent hold...
HOWEVER, we do have some multi-channel Class-D amps that we will be announcing shortly.
Any consideration on Emotiva producing their own Ice Power IceEdge/nCore Amps? There is a big market in the DIY space that Emotiva could easily take some market share. Class D should complement DR2 and the rest of GEN 3 amps. They had a lineup called Emersa which was ice power. It looked very nice but I believe it’s either cancelled or on hold |
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Post by davidl81 on Aug 12, 2021 10:37:25 GMT -5
Despair not...
The Emersa line, by that name, is pretty well on permanent hold...
HOWEVER, we do have some multi-channel Class-D amps that we will be announcing shortly.
They had a lineup called Emersa which was ice power. It looked very nice but I believe it’s either cancelled or on hold Dropping bombs on a Thursday morning! |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 12, 2021 11:08:35 GMT -5
Awww.... we've been talking about this in general for a while... Despair not...
The Emersa line, by that name, is pretty well on permanent hold... HOWEVER, we do have some multi-channel Class-D amps that we will be announcing shortly.
Dropping bombs on a Thursday morning! |
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Post by jra on Aug 13, 2021 18:10:47 GMT -5
Oooh ! I'm very excited. I missed picking up the ice-power Emotiva amps when they were on sale. I didn't need them then. Now I do :-). I'd also be really interested in replacement powered monitors with class D amps too. I love my Stealth8's. I suppose a retro-fit kit to put class D's in a Stealth 8 chassis to fix broken monitors would be too much to hope for :-).
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Post by donh50 on Aug 13, 2021 22:25:01 GMT -5
Most "THD" plots are actually THD+N which is SINAD...
The low-level distortion and wideband harmonic spray is a bit curious. Notice even-order distortion is suppressed.
Emotiva says it is class H, I think? But switching the rails is class G (tracking is class H, at least per my IEEE definitions).
Whatever, it is a ton of power and distortion, and THD whilst not near SOTA for many amps, is still as good or better than what was considered SOTA not all that many years ago. And there aren't many amps that put out that kind of power (if you really need it, and your speakers can take it).
Disclaimer: I am a frequent ASR poster, have a series of technical articles over there, and have known Amir a long time now (at least via 'net, email, and phone). He is a lot more tolerant of all the personal attacks than I (don't think I would ever throw my name up for such ridicule).
As for class D, readily-available modules mean that many hobbyists as well as commercial enterprises can deliver excellent performance. Some at a fairly low price, and some at very high prices (of course). It seems a fairly crowded market, but with Emotiva's rep for value and performance, a line of class D amps could be interesting. Of course, a lot of audiophiles are biased against class D, so Emotiva's current line provides a nice set of AB'ish products in high demand.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Aug 14, 2021 11:26:28 GMT -5
I have a dr2 and cant hear any distortion..... If I should complain about something, that is the sound which is a bit flat compared to xpr5. I compared them directly towards each other and in my opinion the xpr5 was a hair better. Even though the xpr5 had a very low hiss, the dr2 was dead silent. But xpr5 had a bit more warmt in my system. But the difference was very little 😁 My xpr5 has been sold and replaced with a Ati 6005..... Very suble difference and the ati wins by very little.... Not enough compared to the price. Not tried to compare the dr2 to 6005 yet. Maybe when the winter is coming. As others say in hier.... There are better amps than dr2. But you have to pay shitloads for it. The dr2 can drive hard speakers with ease.... And I am happy with it 😎 The XPR amps were nice. It’s too bad I had to get rid of both the XPR2 and XPR5 before they became paper weights. I have the 4003 and the 6003 (gotta send the 4002 back in to get more channels - 4007). I prefer the ATI signature over the XPRs. Only if the DR2 used linear transformers, I would have given it a shot. |
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Post by localnet on Jun 18, 2023 3:13:10 GMT -5
I just took delivery of the XPA-DR2. I was excited when the DR2 line was introduced, having owned several XPA and other Emotiva amps and gear. I was going to purchase one back then, but then I read Amir's review. And yes, I am/was a member at ASR, but no more. Long story...
The XPA-DR2 as far as this distortion, if it is there, it is not audible. Do these guys at ASR ever listen to what they review/trash? Seriously? I was looking at either the ATI and or the Parasound two channel offerings, as Emotiva was no longer on my radar due to the issues that started this thread, the issues I believed were there. I even went as far as telling folks to avoid Emotiva XPA amplifiers. Yep, I drank the ASR kool aid.
I looked at the pricing on the two amplifiers on my short list, ATI/Parasound, $4000 ea or there about, damn pricey, what else is there? I stumbled across a review of the Emotiva DR series, and it was very positive, no mention of this distortion that so many claimed was there... Hmmm... Did some more digging, very few reviews at all out there in regards to the DR series, mostly negative from folks that do not own or have never heard. The folks that actually own the amp, the reviews were extremely positive. Hmmm...
Then I started looking on the used market, if these amps stink, there should be quite a few for sale, right? I see a lot of ATI and Parasound amps for sale on the used market, now why is that, do they stink too?
I found one used XPA-DR2 on US Audio Mart for sale. The history of sales of the DR2 were nonexistent. No one was parting with these, even on eBay. Hmmm... Something is going on here, maybe this distortion claim is all bunk? Hmmm... What is going on here? Where are all of these used XPA-DR2 amplifiers? I am sure Emotiva has sold a few of these over the past few years since being introduced? The used market should be flooded with DR series amplifiers, right? Nope, not in the least.
So, I took a dive, and ordered the DR2 last Friday, It was delivered on Thursday, and I have 30 days to audition. It was a bit muddy and harsh for the first hour, and then she smoothed out as she warmed up. Very detailed amplifier, in a good way. The Athena preamp and Venus DAC play incredibly well via XLR to the DR2. Everything is more open, instruments are more defined, the bass has a smooth and fast delivery.
There is no harshness that I can detect in this amp, or any DISTORTION. This is a very musical amplifier with BIG and clean DISTORTION free sound. I really enjoy how the DR2 separates the instruments. With my other amps, you could hear the instruments, you knew they were there, but not in the way the DR2 allows those instruments to truly be heard. I cannot get over the details I am now hearing in the music I listen to and am familiar with. I had a Class D XTZ Edge A2-400 that was able to do this, but it still had that Class D sound. The DR2 sounds Class A/B to me, no Class H either, whatever that is. The DR2 has that old school analog sound, not the digital sound of a Class D. The separation is fantastic to say the least, and very clean. It really highlights the entirety of the music, it is very fluid in its delivery, a very honest delivery to my ear.
No more ASR kool aid for me, Amir really did Dan and Emotiva a disservice when posting that "Not Recommended" review. Maybe he should listen to the gear he reviews? The XPA-DR2 is staying. Best part, I saved $2000!
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Post by davidl81 on Jun 18, 2023 8:41:06 GMT -5
I just took delivery of the XPA-DR2. I was excited when the DR2 line was introduced, having owned several XPA and other Emotiva amps and gear. I was going to purchase one back then, but then I read Amir's review. And yes, I am/was a member at ASR, but no more. Long story... The XPA-DR2 as far as this distortion, if it is there, it is not audible. Do these guys at ASR ever listen to what they review/trash? Seriously? I was looking at either the ATI and or the Parasound two channel offerings, as Emotiva was no longer on my radar due to the issues that started this thread, the issues I believed were there. I even went as far as telling folks to avoid Emotiva XPA amplifiers. Yep, I drank the ASR kool aid. I looked at the pricing on the two amplifiers on my short list, ATI/Parasound, $4000 ea or there about, damn pricey, what else is there? I stumbled across a review of the Emotiva DR series, and it was very positive, no mention of this distortion that so many claimed was there... Hmmm... Did some more digging, very few reviews at all out there in regards to the DR series, mostly negative from folks that do not own or have never heard. The folks that actually own the amp, the reviews were extremely positive. Hmmm... Then I started looking on the used market, if these amps stink, there should be quite a few for sale, right? I see a lot of ATI and Parasound amps for sale on the used market, now why is that, do they stink too? I found one used XPA-DR2 on US Audio Mart for sale. The history of sales of the DR2 were nonexistent. No one was parting with these, even on eBay. Hmmm... Something is going on here, maybe this distortion claim is all bunk? Hmmm... What is going on here? Where are all of these used XPA-DR2 amplifiers? I am sure Emotiva has sold a few of these over the past few years since being introduced? The used market should be flooded with DR series amplifiers, right? Nope, not in the least. So, I took a dive, and ordered the DR2 last Friday, It was delivered on Thursday, and I have 30 days to audition. It was a bit muddy and harsh for the first hour, and then she smoothed out as she warmed up. Very detailed amplifier, in a good way. The Athena preamp and Venus DAC play incredibly well via XLR to the DR2. Everything is more open, instruments are more defined, the bass has a smooth and fast delivery. There is no harshness that I can detect in this amp, or any DISTORTION. This is a very musical amplifier with BIG and clean DISTORTION free sound. I really enjoy how the DR2 separates the instruments. With my other amps, you could hear the instruments, you knew they were there, but not in the way the DR2 allows those instruments to truly be heard. I cannot get over the details I am now hearing in the music I listen to and am familiar with. I had a Class D XTZ Edge A2-400 that was able to do this, but it still had that Class D sound. The DR2 sounds Class A/B to me, no Class H either, whatever that is. The DR2 has that old school analog sound, not the digital sound of a Class D. The separation is fantastic to say the least, and very clean. It really highlights the entirety of the music, it is very fluid in its delivery, a very honest delivery to my ear. No more ASR kool aid for me, Amir really did Dan and Emotiva a disservice when posting that "Not Recommended" review. Maybe he should listen to the gear he reviews? The XPA-DR2 is staying. Best part, I saved $2000! Amir never actually listens to the equipment he test as the sound may “skew” his view of things. He just runs a very specific set of test and assumes those results correlate to the actual sound quality of what he is testing. |
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Post by brutiarti on Jun 18, 2023 10:33:00 GMT -5
ASR bashing = Poison
Emotiva 30-day in house audition= Antidote
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Post by garbulky on Jun 19, 2023 6:01:22 GMT -5
Dont hate measurements. Take them seriously but love your ears too  |
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Post by localnet on Jun 19, 2023 15:14:04 GMT -5
ASR bashing = Poison Emotiva 30-day in house audition= Antidote Agree. I found a used DR2 on US Audio Mart for $1400, shipped. Looked very good. That is the only used DR2 I could find anywhere. I should have bought his and saved $600. I am not a rat, as I know I could send this unit back and purchase his. But, that is a true testament to the DR2, they rarely hit the used market. |
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Post by localnet on Jun 19, 2023 15:16:07 GMT -5
Dont hate measurements. Take them seriously but love your ears too This is one thing I am slowly catching on to with this higher end audio gear. Measurements tell little of the story. I am guilty of this myself, taking the "science" too seriously and missing out on some good gear due to my ignorance. ;-) |
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Post by Cogito on Jun 21, 2023 20:22:18 GMT -5
I don't know how my XPA-2 Gen.2 measures, but after 8 or 9 years of use (Has it really been that long?), it's still going strong, looks like new and sounds as good as ANYTHING I've heard.
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Post by simpleman68 on Jun 22, 2023 8:43:36 GMT -5
I too have learned the numbers vs ears lesson the hard way.
Some of the amps that I've really liked the sound of do not have killer numbers on the books, but they sound outstanding.
Still rockin' my DR3 in the theater and it has excellent dynamics, SPL, clarity etc.  Scott
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 22, 2023 13:06:10 GMT -5
Amir is too focused on just SINAD in his judgement about amps. There are many more aspects to be measured, if the total competency of an amp is to be accessed via measurements. There are measurements concerning continuous power, dynamic power, resistive to reactive load performance, bandwith (related to transient performance), cross talk, and on and on. To be sure, if an amp sounds better, there is a measurable reason that it does. But since almost no reviews, even if heavily measure tested, includes every type of test possible, there is good logic behind the ear test because in the end the sound is what it is all about. Amir does all those measurements and more. He typically elaborates on each measurement. SINAD is basically a rating reference in regards to other units tested. Russ |
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Post by geebo on Jun 22, 2023 13:18:29 GMT -5
Amir is too focused on just SINAD in his judgement about amps. There are many more aspects to be measured, if the total competency of an amp is to be accessed via measurements. There are measurements concerning continuous power, dynamic power, resistive to reactive load performance, bandwith (related to transient performance), cross talk, and on and on. To be sure, if an amp sounds better, there is a measurable reason that it does. But since almost no reviews, even if heavily measure tested, includes every type of test possible, there is good logic behind the ear test because in the end the sound is what it is all about. Amir does all those measurements and more. He typically elaborates on each measurement. SINAD is basically a rating reference in regards to other units tested. Russ He does other measurements and if all measure well except SINAD he does not recommend the gear even if many users find it actually SOUNDS great. He even has a SINAD chart comparing all other items. Does he have charts for all the other measurements he takes? |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 22, 2023 14:13:03 GMT -5
The problem is this... Audio amplifiers are a bit too complicated to compare accurately using one or two simple measurements. Therefore, attempting to do so, or imagining that you have done so, is unlikely to produce accurate results. (And, if you place excessive confidence in the results, they may also lead you to inaccurate and misleading conclusions.) 1. Most folks in the industry agree that THD and S/N are the two most significant measurements. Therefore, arguably, if you were to only have a single measurement, SINAD wouldn't be that bad of a choice. However, there are a lot of other things you can measure, and not everyone agrees on how important many of the others are. 2. As with many other things, when it comes to audio measurements, there are thresholds of audibility and practical limits. For example, while the specific numbers are still debated, everyone I know agrees that there are limits of audibility for both THD and S/N. That means that there are limits below which they are inaudible... so there is no real benefit of improving them beyond those limits. For example, most people I know agree that , undermost circumstances, an amplifier with 5% THD will probably sound worse than one with 0.5% THD. But most people I know also agree that "nobody can possibly hear the difference between 0.05% THD and 0.005% THD". And, likewise, once the S/N of a system is significantly better than your source material, you really cannot get any practical improvement much beyond that. (And, if you hear a difference between two amplifiers, both of which have THD and S/N well beyond those limits, then it's probably for some OTHER reason.) 3. The upshot of all this is that we often do tend to hear differences between amplifiers. And we often hear those differences in amplifiers whose basic measurements "are good enough that they should sound equally perfect". Therefore, either we're imagining that difference, or it's being caused by something else that we didn't measure. However, considering how many things we didn't measure, and how complex human hearing really is, that last possibility isn't at all unlikely. BUT WE WILL NEVER KNOW THAT THEY SOUND DIFFERENT TO BEGIN WITH IF WE NEVER LISTEN TO THEM.Everyone likes simple answers... So everyone likes simple questions... But they just aren't always good enough to get the job done properly... As the famous quote usually attributed to Albert Einstein goes: “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler” Amir is too focused on just SINAD in his judgement about amps. There are many more aspects to be measured, if the total competency of an amp is to be accessed via measurements. There are measurements concerning continuous power, dynamic power, resistive to reactive load performance, bandwith (related to transient performance), cross talk, and on and on. To be sure, if an amp sounds better, there is a measurable reason that it does. But since almost no reviews, even if heavily measure tested, includes every type of test possible, there is good logic behind the ear test because in the end the sound is what it is all about. Amir does all those measurements and more. He typically elaborates on each measurement. SINAD is basically a rating reference in regards to other units tested. Russ |
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