KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 11, 2021 14:33:03 GMT -5
Our amplifiers can operate from any voltage that is reasonably close to power company spec for "110/120 VAC" or "220/230 VAC". They can also tolerate short term surges as high as 400 V. We've never seen any of them fail due to low supply voltage...
However, that internal fuse is there to protect the power supply from outright unsafe operating conditions... That could occur due to an excessively HIGH voltage ( a surge)... It could also (at least theoretically) occur due to the SMPS attempting to operate for too long from a supply voltage that is too low...
We've sold quite a few of these amplifiers... And this is the first time we've heard of something like this happening... And it's pretty obvious that something equally bad happened to both amplifiers... So it seems pretty obvious that the problem is, in some fashion, "bad power", and not fragility on the part of the amplifiers.
The XPA Gen3 amps do not have rail fuses... However there is one internal fuse - on the power supply. It is soldered in and is not considered to be "user serviceable" (it will also never blow under ordinary conditions). The XPA Gen3 amps are quite tolerant of power surges if they do encounter them... The only thing we can think of that could cause two of them to blow would be a sustained low voltage condition (or "brown out"). We've never seen this happen but it is not totally unexpected.
If the line voltage were to NOT shut off, but drop well below 100 VAC, and remain there for several seconds, it could cause the SMPS to draw excessive current. A similar situation could theoretically occur if the line voltage were to stick partway between the normal voltage ranges for 120 VAC and 230 VAC...
(This is a situation that most power companies try very hard to avoid since it is also very bad for devices like big air conditioners that have big motor-driven compressors.) If that's what happened then your amps really both need to be serviced. Thanks for this information. As I had stated earlier, the amps were NOT being used. They were both in their stand-by status. There may have been a short (1 second) brown out. If that power situation would cause both units that are not in use to fail, they are quite fragile.
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Post by 405x5 on Aug 11, 2021 15:13:21 GMT -5
The XPA Gen3 amps do not have rail fuses... However there is one internal fuse - on the power supply. It is soldered in and is not considered to be "user serviceable" (it will also never blow under ordinary conditions). The XPA Gen3 amps are quite tolerant of power surges if they do encounter them... The only thing we can think of that could cause two of them to blow would be a sustained low voltage condition (or "brown out"). We've never seen this happen but it is not totally unexpected.
If the line voltage were to NOT shut off, but drop well below 100 VAC, and remain there for several seconds, it could cause the SMPS to draw excessive current. A similar situation could theoretically occur if the line voltage were to stick partway between the normal voltage ranges for 120 VAC and 230 VAC...
(This is a situation that most power companies try very hard to avoid since it is also very bad for devices like big air conditioners that have big motor-driven compressors.) If that's what happened then your amps really both need to be serviced. Thanks for this information. As I had stated earlier, the amps were NOT being used. They were both in their stand-by status. There may have been a short (1 second) brown out. If that power situation would cause both units that are not in use to fail, they are quite fragile. It IS important to note that “not being used” CAN be VERY different from not being plugged in
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Post by cubanjimbo on Aug 11, 2021 15:57:18 GMT -5
Our amplifiers can operate from any voltage that is reasonably close to power company spec for "110/120 VAC" or "220/230 VAC". They can also tolerate short term surges as high as 400 V. We've never seen any of them fail due to low supply voltage...
However, that internal fuse is there to protect the power supply from outright unsafe operating conditions... That could occur due to an excessively HIGH voltage ( a surge)... It could also (at least theoretically) occur due to the SMPS attempting to operate for too long from a supply voltage that is too low...
We've sold quite a few of these amplifiers... And this is the first time we've heard of something like this happening... And it's pretty obvious that something equally bad happened to both amplifiers... So it seems pretty obvious that the problem is, in some fashion, "bad power", and not fragility on the part of the amplifiers.
My comment on the fragility of the amplifiers is based on the fact that nothing else electronic in my house has stopped working / gone dead. If it seems obvious to you that this failure was caused by "bad power", and both units were not being used and behind 2 levels of power surge protection, I cannot agree that these amplifiers are so robust that they can handle 400 V. It also seems pretty obvious that a high voltage condition here would have wiped out most of the other devices on that Panamax unit (TV most likely, since that one is always running the OS--even when display is off). I still contend that these amplifiers are too sensitive to power conditions that do not affect other electronic units, including other amplifiers from other manufacturers. However, I do respect your opinion and recognize your pride in this brand.
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Post by ttocs on Aug 11, 2021 17:05:10 GMT -5
It also seems pretty obvious that a high voltage condition here would have wiped out most of the other devices on that Panamax unit (TV most likely, since that one is always running the OS--even when display is off). About 30 years ago I was in a friend's house after a lightning strike. Lots of stuff around the house got fried, including the roof which suddenly had a big gaping hole in it. Two devices in the kitchen were plugged into the same outlet, one survived. The survivor was a tv, the deceased was the toaster which got shot across the room. The toaster was off.
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Post by marcl on Aug 11, 2021 17:30:34 GMT -5
It also seems pretty obvious that a high voltage condition here would have wiped out most of the other devices on that Panamax unit (TV most likely, since that one is always running the OS--even when display is off). About 30 years ago I was in a friend's house after a lightning strike. Lots of stuff around the house got fried, including the roof which suddenly had a big gaping hole in it. Two devices in the kitchen were plugged into the same outlet, one survived. The survivor was a tv, the deceased was the toaster which got shot across the room. The toaster was off. In Electrical Engineering school we learned about the surge protection technique called the "sacrificial toaster".
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Post by audiosyndrome on Aug 11, 2021 19:12:13 GMT -5
That’s a very valid point, and we are here to discuss both opinion and facts (the later being supported by data). I was implying, that opinions stated as fact lead to disagreement, that you don’t seem open to. Look the general statement that more complex circuitry with more components is more likely to fail than simpler circuitry with fewer parts is beyond opinionated. "Not necessarily" also applies, but reliability of more complicated circuitry is only increased by a greater attention to part specification, inspection, and validation along with burn in testing which may result in a more reliable product but at an increased expense in the final cost of that product. I don't need data to say such a thing, it is inherently a Platonic truism. But that’s not what you said. You said “SMPS = less reliability”. That’s simply not true and certainly not a fact, at best it’s YOUR opinion however wrong. Russ PS - not going away when posters espouse opinion as fact.
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Post by 405x5 on Aug 11, 2021 19:49:29 GMT -5
It also seems pretty obvious that a high voltage condition here would have wiped out most of the other devices on that Panamax unit (TV most likely, since that one is always running the OS--even when display is off). About 30 years ago I was in a friend's house after a lightning strike. Lots of stuff around the house got fried, including the roof which suddenly had a big gaping hole in it. Two devices in the kitchen were plugged into the same outlet, one survived. The survivor was a tv, the deceased was the toaster which got shot across the room. The toaster was off. youtu.be/8o4x4OlnX54
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Post by mgbpuff on Aug 11, 2021 19:52:34 GMT -5
Look the general statement that more complex circuitry with more components is more likely to fail than simpler circuitry with fewer parts is beyond opinionated. "Not necessarily" also applies, but reliability of more complicated circuitry is only increased by a greater attention to part specification, inspection, and validation along with burn in testing which may result in a more reliable product but at an increased expense in the final cost of that product. I don't need data to say such a thing, it is inherently a Platonic truism. But that’s not what you said. You said “SMPS = less reliability”. That’s simply not true and certain not a fact, at best it’s YOUR opinion however wrong. Russ PS - not going away when posters espouse opinion as fact. Whatever! Keep flailing away at that tar baby.
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on Aug 11, 2021 20:27:24 GMT -5
But that’s not what you said. You said “SMPS = less reliability”. That’s simply not true and certain not a fact, at best it’s YOUR opinion however wrong. Russ PS - not going away when posters espouse opinion as fact. Whatever! Keep flailing away at that tar baby. This personal attack was completely unnecessary and won't be tolerated again.
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Aug 11, 2021 22:38:30 GMT -5
Our amplifiers can operate from any voltage that is reasonably close to power company spec for "110/120 VAC" or "220/230 VAC". They can also tolerate short term surges as high as 400 V. We've never seen any of them fail due to low supply voltage...
However, that internal fuse is there to protect the power supply from outright unsafe operating conditions... That could occur due to an excessively HIGH voltage ( a surge)... It could also (at least theoretically) occur due to the SMPS attempting to operate for too long from a supply voltage that is too low...
We've sold quite a few of these amplifiers... And this is the first time we've heard of something like this happening... And it's pretty obvious that something equally bad happened to both amplifiers... So it seems pretty obvious that the problem is, in some fashion, "bad power", and not fragility on the part of the amplifiers.
Thanks for this information. As I had stated earlier, the amps were NOT being used. They were both in their stand-by status. There may have been a short (1 second) brown out. If that power situation would cause both units that are not in use to fail, they are quite fragile. The "not so pleasant" news here is that under similar environmental conditions, the Emo amps failed and other connected electronic equipment did not. Reliability is not absolute, it is relative. Anytime a particular piece of equipment fails (and others do not) it is perceived as being "less reliable".
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Post by 405x5 on Aug 12, 2021 7:48:35 GMT -5
This was a weird, but isolated incident and I feel for the OP, having to deal with this. Two amps. One owner same house…..too strange….NOBODY will ever know for sure what happened. It changes nothing at the end of the day. Last time I checked this outfit has sold a boatload of amplifiers and no one has heard of a failure quite like this. A tree fell in my neighbors driveway and split his car in half….but it’s not going to happen again tomorrow.
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Post by DavidR on Aug 12, 2021 8:56:45 GMT -5
@keithl, what is 'active' in the amp while in Standby mode? What is different when rear switch is in the 'Off' position?
OP states both were in Standby mode.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,966
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Post by KeithL on Aug 12, 2021 9:28:12 GMT -5
Most modern devices remain On when you place them in "Standby" (they must at least be On enough to listen for commands from the remote control). This is why you often have to unplug a TV or router to reset it - because there is no way to actually turn it Off (or there is a switch hidden somewhere on the rear panel). Most modern computers also remain On while supposedly "Off" - so they can listen for a network command to turn On. And, obviously, any "smart switches" you have must remain On, otherwise they wouldn't "hear" the command to turn On when you send it to them.
When you put one of our Gen3 amplifiers into Standby mode the power supply remains in a low power mode (sort of idling) - and waiting for a trigger signal or switch press to command it to turn fully On. In that mode it consumes very little power - but it is still connected and running. (On our older Gen1 and Gen2 amps there was actually a separate "Standby supply" that powered the circuitry that would then activate the main power supply when asked to do so.)
On all of our amps the rear panel Power switch is a mechanically operated electrical switch that physically disconnects ALL AC power to the unit. That's why, when the rear panel switch is Off, you cannot turn the amp on with the trigger. And, obviously, when that switch is Off, the amplifier is totally safe from any normal power surge. (But, of course, a really direct lightning strike can jump the contacts on even an ordinary mechanical switch...)
@keithl, what is 'active' in the amp while in Standby mode? What is different when rear switch is in the 'Off' position? OP states both were in Standby mode.
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Post by donh50 on Aug 12, 2021 13:27:25 GMT -5
What exactly was the problem found with the repaired amplifier? Did the standby circuit get zapped or something else?
I have seen near lightening strikes cause some pretty unpredictable behavior, including things like tripping transformer pole breakers (outside) and the resultant surge inside the house as various appliances kick off (or on) "breaking" random electrical items around the house as the surges reacted with various wiring impedances within the house. The surge paths can be hard to predict.
As for SMPS reliability, they've been around a while, and MTBF/MTTF times for a well-designed supply is essentially equivalent to a linear supply. (I just searched some engineering online sites for comparison data, had the links then accidentally closed the page, oh well.) There were a lot of issues plaguing early designs, from poor control circuits that caused both output devices to be on at the same time (leading to rather quick failure), to poor layout and thermal design, to poor components. Of all of that, what I have seen most lately (as a user, not a designer) is generally bad capacitor (cap) selection in cheap designs (and even some good ones -- there was a run of bad caps from a reputable supplier a few years ago -- it happens to the best of folk). Caps for SMPS generally need low ESR and low inductance (high self-resonant frequency) for filtering and stability. Otherwise they cook themselves... Since SMPS are prolific there is a wide variety of good ones to choose from these days (and a host of bad ones, natch).
A working SMPS will generally provide a lower-noise audio component since the power noise is all well (decades) above the audio band, unlike conventional linear supplies with fundamentals and harmonics right through the upper bass and lower midrange. It can also be much smaller since large filter (decoupling) capacitors are not required when they are recharged every cycle at several hundred kHz or more instead of 50/100 or 60/120 Hz.
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Post by tchaik on Aug 12, 2021 14:38:15 GMT -5
Our amplifiers can operate from any voltage that is reasonably close to power company spec for "110/120 VAC" or "220/230 VAC". They can also tolerate short term surges as high as 400 V. We've never seen any of them fail due to low supply voltage... However, that internal fuse is there to protect the power supply from outright unsafe operating conditions... That could occur due to an excessively HIGH voltage ( a surge)... It could also (at least theoretically) occur due to the SMPS attempting to operate for too long from a supply voltage that is too low... We've sold quite a few of these amplifiers... And this is the first time we've heard of something like this happening... And it's pretty obvious that something equally bad happened to both amplifiers... So it seems pretty obvious that the problem is, in some fashion, "bad power", and not fragility on the part of the amplifiers.
The "not so pleasant" news here is that under similar environmental conditions, the Emo amps failed and other connected electronic equipment did not. Reliability is not absolute, it is relative. Anytime a particular piece of equipment fails (and others do not) it is perceived as being "less reliable". perception is key.... I prefer f# minor..........
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Post by cubanjimbo on Aug 17, 2021 15:51:15 GMT -5
What exactly was the problem found with the repaired amplifier? Did the standby circuit get zapped or something else? I have seen near lightening strikes cause some pretty unpredictable behavior, including things like tripping transformer pole breakers (outside) and the resultant surge inside the house as various appliances kick off (or on) "breaking" random electrical items around the house as the surges reacted with various wiring impedances within the house. The surge paths can be hard to predict. As for SMPS reliability, they've been around a while, and MTBF/MTTF times for a well-designed supply is essentially equivalent to a linear supply. (I just searched some engineering online sites for comparison data, had the links then accidentally closed the page, oh well.) There were a lot of issues plaguing early designs, from poor control circuits that caused both output devices to be on at the same time (leading to rather quick failure), to poor layout and thermal design, to poor components. Of all of that, what I have seen most lately (as a user, not a designer) is generally bad capacitor (cap) selection in cheap designs (and even some good ones -- there was a run of bad caps from a reputable supplier a few years ago -- it happens to the best of folk). Caps for SMPS generally need low ESR and low inductance (high self-resonant frequency) for filtering and stability. Otherwise they cook themselves... Since SMPS are prolific there is a wide variety of good ones to choose from these days (and a host of bad ones, natch). A working SMPS will generally provide a lower-noise audio component since the power noise is all well (decades) above the audio band, unlike conventional linear supplies with fundamentals and harmonics right through the upper bass and lower midrange. It can also be much smaller since large filter (decoupling) capacitors are not required when they are recharged every cycle at several hundred kHz or more instead of 50/100 or 60/120 Hz. Hello, According to the information from Emotiva for both of the amps, they have replaced the power supply unit. So, it seems that this part was the one that failed in BOTH units.
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Post by donh50 on Aug 17, 2021 20:36:26 GMT -5
What exactly was the problem found with the repaired amplifier? Did the standby circuit get zapped or something else? I have seen near lightening strikes cause some pretty unpredictable behavior, including things like tripping transformer pole breakers (outside) and the resultant surge inside the house as various appliances kick off (or on) "breaking" random electrical items around the house as the surges reacted with various wiring impedances within the house. The surge paths can be hard to predict. As for SMPS reliability, they've been around a while, and MTBF/MTTF times for a well-designed supply is essentially equivalent to a linear supply. (I just searched some engineering online sites for comparison data, had the links then accidentally closed the page, oh well.) There were a lot of issues plaguing early designs, from poor control circuits that caused both output devices to be on at the same time (leading to rather quick failure), to poor layout and thermal design, to poor components. Of all of that, what I have seen most lately (as a user, not a designer) is generally bad capacitor (cap) selection in cheap designs (and even some good ones -- there was a run of bad caps from a reputable supplier a few years ago -- it happens to the best of folk). Caps for SMPS generally need low ESR and low inductance (high self-resonant frequency) for filtering and stability. Otherwise they cook themselves... Since SMPS are prolific there is a wide variety of good ones to choose from these days (and a host of bad ones, natch). A working SMPS will generally provide a lower-noise audio component since the power noise is all well (decades) above the audio band, unlike conventional linear supplies with fundamentals and harmonics right through the upper bass and lower midrange. It can also be much smaller since large filter (decoupling) capacitors are not required when they are recharged every cycle at several hundred kHz or more instead of 50/100 or 60/120 Hz. Hello, According to the information from Emotiva for both of the amps, they have replaced the power supply unit. So, it seems that this part was the one that failed in BOTH units. Thanks, discouraging, but at least they repaired them for you.
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Post by mgbpuff on Aug 17, 2021 21:19:03 GMT -5
What was that about SMPS reliability?
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Post by audiosyndrome on Aug 17, 2021 22:00:51 GMT -5
Another misguided response from someone who “should just go away”.
Russ
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 17, 2021 22:59:11 GMT -5
Not an official report, but then maybe that doesn’t matter?
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