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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 5, 2021 6:41:53 GMT -5
The significant portion of your comment is "all other things being equal."
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Post by garbulky on Oct 5, 2021 8:08:02 GMT -5
Lower noise Higher external noise rejection Lower distortion Hum rejection Can still be used in unbalanced mode if desired You pays your money, you takes your choice. Lower distortion should apply to fully balanced v unbalanced all other things being equal but then if you look at ASR graph the Unbalanced Buckeye Hypex amp shows less distortion than the PA-1? Hence my initial question. Balanced noise reduction is something like 3 or 6 db reduction which is not a lot. Hypex probably has superior design . I LOVE the idea of balanced amps and gear. My speaker chain is fully balanced. I go BNC to DC-1 to XLR To XPA-1 gen 2. It's nice to have XLR cables.  My headphone chain is not balanced though and it sounds nice as well |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 5, 2021 9:59:35 GMT -5
Lower distortion should apply to fully balanced v unbalanced all other things being equal but then if you look at ASR graph the Unbalanced Buckeye Hypex amp shows less distortion than the PA-1? Hence my initial question. Balanced noise reduction is something like 3 or 6 db reduction which is not a lot. Hypex probably has superior design . I LOVE the idea of balanced amps and gear. My speaker chain is fully balanced. I go BNC to DC-1 to XLR To XPA-1 gen 2. It's nice to have XLR cables. My headphone chain is not balanced though and it sounds nice as well I agree, all else being equal I’d prefer fully balanced amplification, but also believe the balanced connection is the most important part of the chain. I’m comfortable using an amp with balanced inputs if it sounds good and meets my needs. Yes also to XLR connections, quiet, flexible, and secure. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 5, 2021 10:15:45 GMT -5
That is actually incorrect....
You can have a balanced input, or a balanced output, or both. A "balanced output" is another term for a "fully differential output" which is what a "bridged output" is (although there are subtle distinctions in meanings there).
With a balanced connection you have two audio signals - identical but out of phase.
When you connect those two signals to a balanced input the two signals are subtracted (the desired audio signal is the difference between them). So you get twice the desired signal while any noise that is picked up in transit is cancelled out. Note that, while a balanced input is relatively immune to noise picked up in the connection, like hum or outside noises, IT WILL NOT NECESSARILY HAVE A LOWER NOISE FLOOR.
Background hiss, which comes from the circuitry itself, and is purely random, does not cancel out... and, since you have two signal channels, there is actually more circuitry involved. So a balanced connection is far more immune to outside noise than an unbalanced connection but may not necessarily be quieter in terms of internal noise.
Now, in a fully differential amplifier, you have two amplifier channels, amplifying "in phase" and "out of phase" versions of the signal. The speaker is then connected ACROSS the outputs of the two channels, so the signal is summed, which cancels out most of the distortion that is common to both amplifier channels. So, yes, a "fully differential amplifier" does have a "balanced output". (And so both speaker output terminals are "hot" - and neither is grounded.)
And, yes, you can have an unbalanced input feeding a fully differential output stage... Or you can have a balanced input feeding a non-differential (normal) amplifier channel... But, generally, when we say "a fully differential amplifier" we mean both a balanced input, and a fully differential amplifier, with a balanced output.
Note that some of these details are a bit different than back when balanced inputs and outputs were implemented using transformers.
Also note that "single ended" is NOT the proper term to use for an amplifier that is not fully balanced or fully differential... that term has another distinctly different meaning. With modern solid state amplifiers, either an amplifier is "fully differential", or it isn't...
… Actually better value than the PA-1's because they are packaged as a stereo amp rather than monoblock but only downside is they don't have balanced outputs. I think you mean balanced inputs, on a power amp there’s not really such a thing as a balanced output. But the PA-1s don’t just have a balanced input, they are fully balanced, or differential, so really quite a difference from a single ended amp. This takes nothing away from the XTZ, they just chose to turn the two modules into a stereo amp, rather than a fully balanced one. |
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Post by rbk123 on Oct 5, 2021 11:32:19 GMT -5
Serious? Why did I bother buying any of this Emo gear then? Hype? May as well just sell it all and get the new Sony HT-A9 and be done with it. If you bought the gear because it's balanced, you're doing it wrong. You buy an amp because of it's sonic signature and how well it drives your speakers, not because it is balanced or not. |
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Post by creimes on Oct 5, 2021 12:33:57 GMT -5
I think I seen the PA-1's you bought, the guy had them for $620 plus shipping which is more than new which I myself could not do as there are too many options out there these days to buy used amps for more than they sold new with little to no warranty remaining, heck I seen a XPA-5 Gen 2 sell for $1400 a province over from me, a nice amp but my Outlaw 7000X can be had for cheaper and it's new with 7 channels and 5 years of warranty so I'm not sure if people don't know what's out there or what ??
Chad
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Post by leonski on Oct 5, 2021 14:25:19 GMT -5
I don't see what would be the advantage of fully balanced. Serious? Why did I bother buying any of this Emo gear then? Hype? May as well just sell it all and get the new Sony HT-A9 and be done with it. You miss the point: First? conversion to/from balanced is a potential source of .......problems........ Not all gear is NATIVE balanced so if that's a system goal, than be aware. Second? The 'best of' any given topology should be indistinguishible from other 'best' when in a system. In general, EXECUTION and proper parts (parts ain't parts) can rule. Just an example? Buy a good DAC chipset from One of the biggies. Burr Brown? Philips? AKM? ESS? Must be a couple I missed.... But the point is that you can either duplicate the reference board (they ALL have them) or go out on your own....with possible better OR worse results than reference. The 'Best' DAC chipset is NO guarantee of the final result.... So? Balanced is no guarantee of anything. And BTW? Plenty.....Like Grand Canyon Sized.....space between EMO and a SONY HT. And another gap to the REAL esoteric stuff.......as well as $$$$ |
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Post by jra on Oct 5, 2021 18:18:20 GMT -5
I think I seen the PA-1's you bought, the guy had them for $620 plus shipping which is more than new which I myself could not do as there are too many options out there these days to buy used amps for more than they sold new with little to no warranty remaining, heck I seen a XPA-5 Gen 2 sell for $1400 a province over from me, a nice amp but my Outlaw 7000X can be had for cheaper and it's new with 7 channels and 5 years of warranty so I'm not sure if people don't know what's out there or what ?? Chad Yes, those were the ones. Remember, things are worth what people are willing to pay. I'd bought a pair of PA-1's for $500 off ebay, and loved them so much I was willing to pay more than new to get them. I'd have loved to have given that money to Emotiva, but they're not selling them now :-(. |
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Post by thezone on Oct 5, 2021 18:42:51 GMT -5
Serious? Why did I bother buying any of this Emo gear then? Hype? May as well just sell it all and get the new Sony HT-A9 and be done with it. If you bought the gear because it's balanced, you're doing it wrong. You buy an amp because of it's sonic signature and how well it drives your speakers, not because it is balanced or not. Sorry my post was in haste. Post haste? : ) I meant that at some point my goal was to have all things in the chain of similar topology eg receiver, amps all fully balanced rather than mix n match as this seemed to be what Emo was selling in their marketing and what people seemed to back up in discussions like this. And it just so happens that in doing so has elevated the balance and articulation of sound (or SQ if you like) to heights that it has never been before. So I'm actually incredibly happy with the sound of all my Emo gear (XMC-2 does some quirky things from time to time but nothing sonically and nothing I can't live with) especially my PA-1's. |
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Post by thezone on Oct 5, 2021 18:51:50 GMT -5
That is actually incorrect....
You can have a balanced input, or a balanced output, or both. A "balanced output" is another term for a "fully differential output" which is what a "bridged output" is (although there are subtle distinctions in meanings there).
With a balanced connection you have two audio signals - identical but out of phase.
When you connect those two signals to a balanced input the two signals are subtracted (the desired audio signal is the difference between them). So you get twice the desired signal while any noise that is picked up in transit is cancelled out. Note that, while a balanced input is relatively immune to noise picked up in the connection, like hum or outside noises, IT WILL NOT NECESSARILY HAVE A LOWER NOISE FLOOR.
Background hiss, which comes from the circuitry itself, and is purely random, does not cancel out... and, since you have two signal channels, there is actually more circuitry involved. So a balanced connection is far more immune to outside noise than an unbalanced connection but may not necessarily be quieter in terms of internal noise.
Now, in a fully differential amplifier, you have two amplifier channels, amplifying "in phase" and "out of phase" versions of the signal. The speaker is then connected ACROSS the outputs of the two channels, so the signal is summed, which cancels out most of the distortion that is common to both amplifier channels. So, yes, a "fully differential amplifier" does have a "balanced output". (And so both speaker output terminals are "hot" - and neither is grounded.)
And, yes, you can have an unbalanced input feeding a fully differential output stage... Or you can have a balanced input feeding a non-differential (normal) amplifier channel... But, generally, when we say "a fully differential amplifier" we mean both a balanced input, and a fully differential amplifier, with a balanced output.
Note that some of these details are a bit different than back when balanced inputs and outputs were implemented using transformers.
Also note that "single ended" is NOT the proper term to use for an amplifier that is not fully balanced or fully differential... that term has another distinctly different meaning. With modern solid state amplifiers, either an amplifier is "fully differential", or it isn't...
I think you mean balanced inputs, on a power amp there’s not really such a thing as a balanced output. But the PA-1s don’t just have a balanced input, they are fully balanced, or differential, so really quite a difference from a single ended amp. This takes nothing away from the XTZ, they just chose to turn the two modules into a stereo amp, rather than a fully balanced one. Thanks Keith, Will need to re-read that a few times! So can you also please explain if this is similarly applies to the differential dac implementation in the Front Left, Right and center channels of the XMC-2 (and all the channels of the RMC) and if this balanced topology will carry forward to suit those connections and differential topology in the PA-1's? Eg is this a perfectly balanced system from dac to speaker: XMC-2 L,R,C DAC > XMC-2 L,R,C XLR Output > PA-1 XLR Input > PA-1 Amp > Speaker? |
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Post by creimes on Oct 5, 2021 19:06:30 GMT -5
I think I seen the PA-1's you bought, the guy had them for $620 plus shipping which is more than new which I myself could not do as there are too many options out there these days to buy used amps for more than they sold new with little to no warranty remaining, heck I seen a XPA-5 Gen 2 sell for $1400 a province over from me, a nice amp but my Outlaw 7000X can be had for cheaper and it's new with 7 channels and 5 years of warranty so I'm not sure if people don't know what's out there or what ?? Chad Yes, those were the ones. Remember, things are worth what people are willing to pay. I'd bought a pair of PA-1's for $500 off ebay, and loved them so much I was willing to pay more than new to get them. I'd have loved to have given that money to Emotiva, but they're not selling them now :-(. I loved them too when I owned them so we all have different willingness amounts we will pay lol, I sold mine and only got like $550 CAD for two of them like a year ago haha, that's like $100 USD haha well not quite but his asking price would have cost me $840 CAD so I didn't thing a $300 jump from what I got for mine last year was worth it for me. There's tons of good options out there now for class d stuff. Chad |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 5, 2021 20:09:37 GMT -5
Serious? Why did I bother buying any of this Emo gear then? Hype? May as well just sell it all and get the new Sony HT-A9 and be done with it. If you bought the gear because it's balanced, you're doing it wrong. You buy an amp because of it's sonic signature and how well it drives your speakers, not because it is balanced or not. In my case, one of my first requirements for my "end-game" system was balanced. So that did take priority. In the grand scheme of things it probably has little affect on the sound, but because of the money I was spending, I thought it better darn well be balanced! Why not right? I had choices, why go with RCA? The headphone amp I've been waffling on whether I want it balanced or not. My DC-1 is already using its XLR outputs for the XPA-1's but the RCA outputs are free and a good match for the Emotiva a-100 headphone amp. If I went balanced, I'd have to split the XLR outputs OR get something that does a passthrough. Neither of which seems appealing. My HD800S does come with a balanced and single ended cable. So I do have a choice. Right now, there hasn't been anything on the market that makes me want to jump. I've been toying with the idea of getting some sort of monoblock headphone amp. I don't think they make any in a decently affordable price range, so I may consider simply getting two stereo headphone amps and using a single channel on each. Perhaps a Schiit Magnius stack? |
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Post by leonski on Oct 5, 2021 22:40:01 GMT -5
Gar? What cables did you end up with for all those interconnects? Any thought to Mogami? Guitar Center has 'em....the Studio Gold line in 6 foot which are shoice..... Since you are interested in a headphone amp? I'm a 'one and done' guy so THIS is an attractive idea. DECWARE gets terrific reviews AND has a lifetime warranty....... Some interesting features and claims...... www.decware.com/newsite/TABOO.htm |
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Post by leonski on Oct 6, 2021 1:15:07 GMT -5
Hi jra - First, I'm glad you liked my review of the PA-1 amplifiers. Second, I'm glad that you agreed with my review. Yes, unfortunately, the PA-1 amps are discontinued (but maybe Emotiva will make some Class D replacements). I've also heard some other Class D modules that I thought competed with the PA-1 amps. The ones I most recently liked used modules made by a company called "Hypex." The PA-1 modules were made by Bang & Olufsen. Happy shopping! Boomzilla (aka Glenn Young) BOTH with substantial input (like the design!) from Bruno Putzeys. A real nice guy. Met him at a show here in SoCal and it turns out he is a big fan of Spicy Food. If time, I'd have invited him down to SD for some home made Mexican Food....... Bruno has gone on to Purifi..... |
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Post by thezone on Oct 6, 2021 3:05:57 GMT -5
Gar? What cables did you end up with for all those interconnects? Any thought to Mogami? Guitar Center has 'em....the Studio Gold line in 6 foot which are shoice..... Since you are interested in a headphone amp? I'm a 'one and done' guy so THIS is an attractive idea. DECWARE gets terrific reviews AND has a lifetime warranty....... Some interesting features and claims...... www.decware.com/newsite/TABOO.htmWe are way off topic here but OMG, these headphone amps look so cool, the placebo effect would ensure that they sounded good! |
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Post by rbk123 on Oct 6, 2021 10:26:24 GMT -5
Serious? Why did I bother buying any of this Emo gear then? Hype? May as well just sell it all and get the new Sony HT-A9 and be done with it. If you bought the gear because it's balanced, you're doing it wrong. You buy an amp because of it's sonic signature and how well it drives your speakers, not because it is balanced or not. Sorry my post was in haste. Post haste? : ) I meant that at some point my goal was to have all things in the chain of similar topology eg receiver, amps all fully balanced rather than mix n match as this seemed to be what Emo was selling in their marketing and what people seemed to back up in discussions like this. And it just so happens that in doing so has elevated the balance and articulation of sound (or SQ if you like) to heights that it has never been before. So I'm actually incredibly happy with the sound of all my Emo gear (XMC-2 does some quirky things from time to time but nothing sonically and nothing I can't live with) especially my PA-1's. Ahhh very good then, as you have now answered your own "why did I bother buying Emo then" - because it sounds great and has made you incredibly happy - which is the whole point of a hobby. |
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Post by rbk123 on Oct 6, 2021 10:30:22 GMT -5
In my case, one of my first requirements for my "end-game" system was balanced. So that did take priority. In the grand scheme of things it probably has little affect on the sound, but because of the money I was spending, I thought it better darn well be balanced! Why not right? I had choices, why go with RCA? Because something with RCA may sound better than something balanced, that's why. You are needlessly limiting yourself by excluding options that may end up sounding better than what you have, or as good but for less money, for a completely arbitrary reason. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 6, 2021 11:28:04 GMT -5
I have to agree here...
With modern equipment, in a given piece of gear, either one could be superior, depending on how each is implemented... And, in many cases, they will be totally indistinguishable...
The main benefit of a balanced connection is immunity to noise being picked up in the connection itself. The amount of background noise present in the circuitry at either end could actually be slightly better or slightly worse... but will be insignificant either way.
However the balanced connection will be less likely to pick up hum and external noise that impinges on the connecting cable. This is especially significant with long cables - and with subwoofers - which do such a great job of reproducing whatever hum does manage to sneak in.
However I always advise people to think of it more as insurance than as a specific benefit. - Most people don't have problems with this sort of noise - with either type of connection.
- If you're using an unbalanced cable, and aren't experiencing noise problems, then I would not expect a balanced cable to sound any different.
- If you have hum or noise pickup with unbalanced cables then switching to balanced cables will probably help.
- If you're installing the wire in a wall, where you cannot easily change it later, then a balanced cable will be better insurance against wanting to do so later.
- The XLR connectors used on balanced connections are more secure - but they are also bulkier.
A fully differential amplifier is a different matter... Because, in a balanced amplifier, certain types of distortion and noise will cancel out... This can result in lower overall distortion and a different distortion signature...
In my case, one of my first requirements for my "end-game" system was balanced. So that did take priority. In the grand scheme of things it probably has little affect on the sound, but because of the money I was spending, I thought it better darn well be balanced! Why not right? I had choices, why go with RCA? Because something with RCA may sound better than something balanced, that's why. You are needlessly limiting yourself by excluding options that may end up sounding better than what you have, or as good but for less money, for a completely arbitrary reason. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 6, 2021 11:41:35 GMT -5
OK.....
Not exactly.
ALL of the DACs in the XMC-2, RMC-1, and RMC-1L are fully balanced fully differential DACs - and have fully balanced outputs.
The DACs themselves individually benefit from lower distortion because they have fully balanced fully differential outputs.
The DACs on all of the channels of the RMC-1's and the front channels of the XMC-2 are different in a different way.
In those channels, the two output channels on each DAC, which are already fully balanced and fully differential, are cross connected to deliver even better performance. (I'm not using the term "double balanced" because that term has no specific meaning... suffice to say that they have "better than a regular balanced output"...
The DAC vendors refer to this as "mono mode"... because "each fully balanced stereo pair of DAC outputs is being reconnected as an even higher performing mono output".)
And, with ANY of the outputs on those processors, if you connect them to a PA-1, using a balanced connection, you will also get the benefits of a balanced connection. (Immunity to picking up noise in the cable.)
The PA-1 itself is a fully balanced and fully differential amplifier. So, once you get to the PA-1, you will get the benefits of its being a fully differential amplifier. (A reduction in certain types of distortion. Although, to be fair, the performance of the PA-1 itself is probably more significant than the fact that its fully differential.)
That is actually incorrect.... You can have a balanced input, or a balanced output, or both. A "balanced output" is another term for a "fully differential output" which is what a "bridged output" is (although there are subtle distinctions in meanings there). With a balanced connection you have two audio signals - identical but out of phase.
When you connect those two signals to a balanced input the two signals are subtracted (the desired audio signal is the difference between them). So you get twice the desired signal while any noise that is picked up in transit is cancelled out. Note that, while a balanced input is relatively immune to noise picked up in the connection, like hum or outside noises, IT WILL NOT NECESSARILY HAVE A LOWER NOISE FLOOR.
Background hiss, which comes from the circuitry itself, and is purely random, does not cancel out... and, since you have two signal channels, there is actually more circuitry involved. So a balanced connection is far more immune to outside noise than an unbalanced connection but may not necessarily be quieter in terms of internal noise.
Now, in a fully differential amplifier, you have two amplifier channels, amplifying "in phase" and "out of phase" versions of the signal. The speaker is then connected ACROSS the outputs of the two channels, so the signal is summed, which cancels out most of the distortion that is common to both amplifier channels. So, yes, a "fully differential amplifier" does have a "balanced output". (And so both speaker output terminals are "hot" - and neither is grounded.) And, yes, you can have an unbalanced input feeding a fully differential output stage... Or you can have a balanced input feeding a non-differential (normal) amplifier channel... But, generally, when we say "a fully differential amplifier" we mean both a balanced input, and a fully differential amplifier, with a balanced output.
Note that some of these details are a bit different than back when balanced inputs and outputs were implemented using transformers. Also note that "single ended" is NOT the proper term to use for an amplifier that is not fully balanced or fully differential... that term has another distinctly different meaning. With modern solid state amplifiers, either an amplifier is "fully differential", or it isn't...
Thanks Keith, Will need to re-read that a few times! So can you also please explain if this is similarly applies to the differential dac implementation in the Front Left, Right and center channels of the XMC-2 (and all the channels of the RMC) and if this balanced topology will carry forward to suit those connections and differential topology in the PA-1's? Eg is this a perfectly balanced system from dac to speaker: XMC-2 L,R,C DAC > XMC-2 L,R,C XLR Output > PA-1 XLR Input > PA-1 Amp > Speaker? |
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Post by novisnick on Oct 6, 2021 11:48:39 GMT -5
OK.....
Not exactly.
ALL of the DACs in the XMC-2, RMC-1, and RMC-1L are fully balanced fully differential DACs - and have fully balanced outputs.
The DACs themselves individually benefit from lower distortion because they have fully balanced fully differential outputs.
The DACs on all of the channels of the RMC-1's and the front channels of the XMC-2 are different in a different way.
In those channels, the two output channels on each DAC, which are already fully balanced and fully differential, are cross connected to deliver even better performance. (I'm not using the term "double balanced" because that term has no specific meaning... suffice to say that they have "better than a regular balanced output"...
The DAC vendors refer to this as "mono mode"... because "each fully balanced stereo pair of DAC outputs is being reconnected as an even higher performing mono output".)
And, with ANY of the outputs on those processors, if you connect them to a PA-1, using a balanced connection, you will also get the benefits of a balanced connection. (Immunity to picking up noise in the cable.)
The PA-1 itself is a fully balanced and fully differential amplifier. So, once you get to the PA-1, you will get the benefits of its being a fully differential amplifier. (A reduction in certain types of distortion. Although, to be fair, the performance of the PA-1 itself is probably more significant than the fact that its fully differential.)
Thanks Keith, Will need to re-read that a few times! So can you also please explain if this is similarly applies to the differential dac implementation in the Front Left, Right and center channels of the XMC-2 (and all the channels of the RMC) and if this balanced topology will carry forward to suit those connections and differential topology in the PA-1's? Eg is this a perfectly balanced system from dac to speaker: XMC-2 L,R,C DAC > XMC-2 L,R,C XLR Output > PA-1 XLR Input > PA-1 Amp > Speaker? And the chances of purchasing a new PA-1 from Emotiva are?,,,,,,,  |
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My headphone chain is not balanced though and it sounds nice as well 
