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Post by garbulky on Oct 6, 2021 12:25:46 GMT -5
In my case, one of my first requirements for my "end-game" system was balanced. So that did take priority. In the grand scheme of things it probably has little affect on the sound, but because of the money I was spending, I thought it better darn well be balanced! Why not right? I had choices, why go with RCA? Because something with RCA may sound better than something balanced, that's why. You are needlessly limiting yourself by excluding options that may end up sounding better than what you have, or as good but for less money, for a completely arbitrary reason. I agree with you, the sound quality matters. But to be honest, I can't think of many examples where an RCA product sounds better unless it's a tube amp or it's meant for mini/portable use. Now money-wise, yeah that depends on what one is willing to spend. Fully balanced gear tends to be more expensive and if one is not looking for expensive, there's plenty of good RCA options. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 6, 2021 15:44:35 GMT -5
The chances of an identical PA-1 from Emotiva are ZERO. But if I had to guess, I'd say Dan was probably working with B&O (and maybe some other manufacturers) on amp projects where Emotiva has some input into the designs. And, of course and as always, I could be wrong.
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Post by davidl81 on Oct 6, 2021 20:09:38 GMT -5
I think I seen the PA-1's you bought, the guy had them for $620 plus shipping which is more than new which I myself could not do as there are too many options out there these days to buy used amps for more than they sold new with little to no warranty remaining, heck I seen a XPA-5 Gen 2 sell for $1400 a province over from me, a nice amp but my Outlaw 7000X can be had for cheaper and it's new with 7 channels and 5 years of warranty so I'm not sure if people don't know what's out there or what ?? Chad Hot take, but the PA-1s were wildly under priced at $299 each new IMO (and I own 3 of them). Could have easily been $399 each and still been a great value. I’d buy used ones right now at $399 each and not think twice about it. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 6, 2021 20:16:47 GMT -5
I'll go with your instinct, boom. Lots of leverage possible on the INPUT side of the amp. Even add a tube buffer, if that's what will float your boat AND Sell......but this is about a 1% er. If I were EMO? And still interested in a 'D' offering? I'd be on the phone to HYPEX, PS in another matter, EMO could do their OWN thing.....based on the existing PS module in the new amps OR go with a HYPEX build....... That PS from EMO? could easily power a PAIR of modules or even a '3-Some'.......for L/R/Middle duties in the HT line. So many possibilities! But must be careful NOT to step on your own toes! www.diyclassd.com/product/nc400/11NC400 link......200@8 / 400@4 and about 330$ each......This is for 'regular' people, not mass business buys..... On another part of the site is the OEM stuff. I don't know pricing here, but if you buy a bunch? I'll bet a terrific deal.... |
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Post by rbk123 on Oct 6, 2021 21:20:24 GMT -5
The PA-1 hype is approaching legendary status at warp speed in this thread. Reminds me of the SA-250 hype hysteria here for a short while several years after it was discontinued, and how it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Thankfully that has dissolved back to normalcy.
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Post by thezone on Oct 6, 2021 22:00:05 GMT -5
OK.....
Not exactly.
ALL of the DACs in the XMC-2, RMC-1, and RMC-1L are fully balanced fully differential DACs - and have fully balanced outputs.
The DACs themselves individually benefit from lower distortion because they have fully balanced fully differential outputs.
The DACs on all of the channels of the RMC-1's and the front channels of the XMC-2 are different in a different way.
In those channels, the two output channels on each DAC, which are already fully balanced and fully differential, are cross connected to deliver even better performance. (I'm not using the term "double balanced" because that term has no specific meaning... suffice to say that they have "better than a regular balanced output"...
The DAC vendors refer to this as "mono mode"... because "each fully balanced stereo pair of DAC outputs is being reconnected as an even higher performing mono output".)
And, with ANY of the outputs on those processors, if you connect them to a PA-1, using a balanced connection, you will also get the benefits of a balanced connection. (Immunity to picking up noise in the cable.)
The PA-1 itself is a fully balanced and fully differential amplifier. So, once you get to the PA-1, you will get the benefits of its being a fully differential amplifier. (A reduction in certain types of distortion. Although, to be fair, the performance of the PA-1 itself is probably more significant than the fact that its fully differential.)
Thanks Keith, Will need to re-read that a few times! So can you also please explain if this is similarly applies to the differential dac implementation in the Front Left, Right and center channels of the XMC-2 (and all the channels of the RMC) and if this balanced topology will carry forward to suit those connections and differential topology in the PA-1's? Eg is this a perfectly balanced system from dac to speaker: XMC-2 L,R,C DAC > XMC-2 L,R,C XLR Output > PA-1 XLR Input > PA-1 Amp > Speaker? Awesome thanks Keith, clears up some misconceptions I had. So if noise introduced by cable run and/or at the connectors is not an issue, you could theoretically used rca connectors between say an XMC-2 and a PA-1 and you would still get the benefit of the balanced architecture/functionality within those devices, eg they are not dependent on balanced connectors between them to function that way. I learned something new today! |
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Post by thezone on Oct 6, 2021 22:02:10 GMT -5
Because something with RCA may sound better than something balanced, that's why. You are needlessly limiting yourself by excluding options that may end up sounding better than what you have, or as good but for less money, for a completely arbitrary reason. I agree with you, the sound quality matters. But to be honest, I can't think of many examples where an RCA product sounds better unless it's a tube amp or it's meant for mini/portable use. Now money-wise, yeah that depends on what one is willing to spend. Fully balanced gear tends to be more expensive and if one is not looking for expensive, there's plenty of good RCA options. There are some quite expensive and reputable brands that do only use RCA - NAD is one that comes to mind |
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Post by thezone on Oct 6, 2021 22:04:23 GMT -5
I think I seen the PA-1's you bought, the guy had them for $620 plus shipping which is more than new which I myself could not do as there are too many options out there these days to buy used amps for more than they sold new with little to no warranty remaining, heck I seen a XPA-5 Gen 2 sell for $1400 a province over from me, a nice amp but my Outlaw 7000X can be had for cheaper and it's new with 7 channels and 5 years of warranty so I'm not sure if people don't know what's out there or what ?? Chad Hot take, but the PA-1s were wildly under priced at $299 each new IMO (and I own 3 of them). Could have easily been $399 each and still been a great value. I’d buy used ones right now at $399 each and not think twice about it. I live in Australia and they cost me nearly Aud$500 ea and I still bought 5 of them! I would have bought 7 but they ran out. |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 6, 2021 22:13:31 GMT -5
I agree with you, the sound quality matters. But to be honest, I can't think of many examples where an RCA product sounds better unless it's a tube amp or it's meant for mini/portable use. Now money-wise, yeah that depends on what one is willing to spend. Fully balanced gear tends to be more expensive and if one is not looking for expensive, there's plenty of good RCA options. There are some quite expensive and reputable brands that do only use RCA - NAD is one that comes to mind I haven't had a chance to check out NAD. Do you like them? NAD has their C298 with balanced inputs. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 7, 2021 0:23:05 GMT -5
NAD is one of the 'old standby' brands identified as MidFi.....the origianl 3020 amplifier is legendary. I had the 1700 tuner-preamp from mid 80s. And while LIST at that time was IIRC, about 800$, I got it for much less. And it lasted for years. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAD_3020NAD has had its up and downs. The Current MASTERS series is well regarded and quite state-of-the-art. My old 1700? Very flexible for its time. Triple turnover tone controls...of narrower effect. Subsonic filter for turntable rumble. MM and MC phono inputs. Reasonable FM tuner section with switcibhle selectivity. 1 set of high voltage outputs for LONG runs....Functional remote.....Loudness contour. And many other useful features. This was from the Monitor Seriess, which predates the Masters Series....and was a 'best effort' at that time. www.hifi-classic.net/review/nad-1700-242.htmla few notes from HiFi Classics..... |
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Post by leonski on Oct 7, 2021 0:26:31 GMT -5
The PA-1 hype is approaching legendary status at warp speed in this thread. Reminds me of the SA-250 hype hysteria here for a short while several years after it was discontinued, and how it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Thankfully that has dissolved back to normalcy. Good value? Yes. B&O sourced for reliability and continuity? Sure. Deserving of fond memories? Why not? I suspect some of these will be in service for quite a while to come. Classic / Legendary? Might be a bit of overstatement...... Just an Opine.... |
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Post by creimes on Oct 7, 2021 9:53:12 GMT -5
I think I seen the PA-1's you bought, the guy had them for $620 plus shipping which is more than new which I myself could not do as there are too many options out there these days to buy used amps for more than they sold new with little to no warranty remaining, heck I seen a XPA-5 Gen 2 sell for $1400 a province over from me, a nice amp but my Outlaw 7000X can be had for cheaper and it's new with 7 channels and 5 years of warranty so I'm not sure if people don't know what's out there or what ?? Chad Hot take, but the PA-1s were wildly under priced at $299 each new IMO (and I own 3 of them). Could have easily been $399 each and still been a great value. I’d buy used ones right now at $399 each and not think twice about it. I would have to disagree they were under priced, they are nice amps but at $600 for a pair you can get class D with more power for a minor increase in price, VTV and the guy making those Buckeye amps are great deals and I'm sure I will have a stereo HypeX NC500 in the future when I can put together a little 2ch setup with my PT7030. For what these used PA1 are selling for you can get THIS for a tad bit more. But of course to each their own, the PA-1 is nice but myself I could barely sell mine a year ago and had to discount them heavily and lost money and now a year latr are the gift to audio heaven ?? haha Chad |
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Post by leonski on Oct 7, 2021 16:36:30 GMT -5
Creimes:
I looked at the photo of the internal wiring of the VTV amp you linked. It would take an HOUR of my time to do that wiring. And another hour or so to put it in the case.
That's what I'm getting at with EMO. They could duplicate this with stock parts and produce a very nice amp.
NCore gets good press, overall....
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Post by creimes on Oct 7, 2021 17:30:32 GMT -5
Creimes: I looked at the photo of the internal wiring of the VTV amp you linked. It would take an HOUR of my time to do that wiring. And another hour or so to put it in the case. That's what I'm getting at with EMO. They could duplicate this with stock parts and produce a very nice amp. NCore gets good press, overall.... Yes DIY is fairly simple with these modules, have you seen what D-Sonic charges to put them in a case haha Back in 2011 I purchased two brand spanking new UPA-1 for $299 each and the Canadian dollar was par, now those were good times  Chad |
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Post by leonski on Oct 7, 2021 18:42:33 GMT -5
The EDGE for EMO is that the OEM stuff is NOT aavilable to the likes of ME. Have to buy some quantitiy and may get a better deal buying MORE.....
You'd have to have a case builder ready to go as well as a brace of competent techs to do the ASSEMBLY and a guy for test......Calculate thruput numbers for line balance, than do th math
and figure out HOW MUCH to charge to ensure a reasonable profit and warranty coverage.
I saw a place online which will let you use THEIR software and than cut you a custom case. Imagine IF you were to order in 300 or 500 case lots?
Problem? EMO would cut INTO and Canabaloze its OWN business. That's the trouble with being the very least expensive (nearly) serious gear available in a given space.
Personally? Maybe make a 5ch or so 'D' amp on the NCore model. You MUST add perceived value to this proposition so you can get a reasonable return on investment.....
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klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
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Post by klinemj on Oct 8, 2021 15:15:46 GMT -5
I've not really had a good listen to the PA-1's, but I am still enjoying my Hypex Ncores. Great clean sound and very powerful. The assembly time for me was far more in the custom cases I made (and aluminum case with a wood and glass front panel). My hang on the wall like a picture (even using standard picture hanging hardwire and wire), so the front panel shows the lights on the amp panel.
Wiring was so easy.
Mark
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Post by rbk123 on Oct 8, 2021 18:48:22 GMT -5
Using wood on the Hypex case makes a huge diiference. Gives it a more neutral and earthy sound. Might add a bit of grain, though.
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Post by quattroll on Oct 8, 2021 19:20:39 GMT -5
Ok, I am finally breaking down and writing on this thread.
I treated myself to a pair of PA-1s just before the emobucks bonanza, as one of my XPA-1Ls went down and I shipped it to Emotiva to be fixed. I first hooked them into my system and started streaming some music casually to warm them up for a few hours to get going without trying to figure out how they sound. At relatively low volume I was still pulled into the music and I remember remarking to my son about this.
Fast forward a little and I sold 3 XPA-100s and a 200, for a set of five! With emobucks I actually made money. They were great in my TV room until I found an SA-250 locally that I had to try. That is a great sounding amp for sure. I’m using a PA-1 for the center and rears and it’s great.
This has allowed me to move the XPA-1Ls and 2 PA-1s to another room, where I can compare them with some Magnepan .7s and Era D14s. The D14 is effectively a Peachtree product that was briefly made in the later 2000s I think. It is a pretty big three-way, four driver and silk tweeter design.
Now I have to say, A-Bing speakers and amps is hard work! I think it really depends on the music selections, which have to have unusual aspects that you listen for. Andrew Robinson has a recent video that I am working through doing just that, listening for the things he talks about. What’s fun about this setup is it’s actually two separate systems. I have two DC-1s now and I have them set up side by side connected to their respective amps. It’s hard to say which amp or which speaker is better there, and in fact, I think the answer is it depends on what you are listening to and how you are listening i.e, loud, relaxed, concentrating or not etc.
Anyway, the PA-1s are so cool! They are small, light, efficient and paired to the DC-1, you have an awesome sounding stack that is strong and fast. I think I have some of the greatest stuff Emotiva has made and I love it all so much!
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Post by creimes on Oct 8, 2021 19:58:54 GMT -5
Using wood on the Hypex case makes a huge diiference. Gives it a more neutral and earthy sound. Might add a bit of grain, though. Marks amps have the wood grain running parallel to the direction of the speaker terminals as to not affect the sound quality in a detrimental way. Chad |
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Post by leonski on Oct 8, 2021 21:31:10 GMT -5
Using wood on the Hypex case makes a huge diiference. Gives it a more neutral and earthy sound. Might add a bit of grain, though. And THAN some killjoy yells TERMITE! How the heck do you Fumigate an AMP? Knots! |
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