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Post by audiobill on Feb 18, 2023 14:26:39 GMT -5
So long as the “house sound” doesn’t involve cheap capacitors exploding….at the risk of being blunt…
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 18, 2023 15:18:25 GMT -5
Well the bottom line is with all the audio gear out there now, why should any manufacturer issue a new product? Newer technology - lower price - higher performance. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 18, 2023 15:29:57 GMT -5
So long as the “house sound” doesn’t involve cheap capacitors exploding….at the risk of being blunt… Sometimes it's impossible to predict how a specific component will perform over time. You can model and predict, but it doesn't mean that you'll get what you paid for. A friend of mine oversees computers for the State of Louisiana. A while back, they bought about 1,500 servers on a single purchase order. Each server consisted of a single motherboard and a daughter card that did disc IO. The disc controller cards started failing with the culprit being two capacitors that would swell and fail. The server vendor couldn't keep up with the demand for replacement IO cards, so the State bought large quantities of the two capacitors from another vendor and then gave an employee half of every Friday off so that he could unsolder bad caps from failed disc controllers & replace them with fresh (and more reliable) capacitors in his garage. Of the lot of 1,500 servers, the eventual failure rate for disc controller cards was more than 90%. The servers (and disc controller cards) were NOT the lowest bid options. The server vendor had done modeling and failure rate prediction for all the server parts, including the caps on the IO cards - but their calculations turned out to be wrong. No manufacturer would deliberately put unreliable parts into a product - it costs more to do warranty repairs than to buy reliable parts in the first place. But sometimes even the most "reliable" parts turn out to have problems. |
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Post by routlaw on Feb 18, 2023 16:13:39 GMT -5
So long as the “house sound” doesn’t involve cheap capacitors exploding….at the risk of being blunt… I have had two components through the years "blow up" on me and they were both some if not the most expensive I've owned. A Krell KSA 200S and a pair of Martin Logan Quest Z's. The Quest Z's went out with bang literally. The Krell just had nothing short of a major melt down. Had to take the thing apart myself and ship the repairable parts back to the factory for repairs, then rebuild once those parts arrived back home. Funny I've never had this happen with any of the cheap Emotiva gear, and the sound is just gawd awful. |
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Post by audiobill on Feb 18, 2023 16:28:56 GMT -5
Agree, must be miserable to have stuff blow up.
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Post by fbczar on Feb 18, 2023 17:25:49 GMT -5
Thanks. I didn’t have a problem with the sound quality of the D400ES. I actually took it over to my friend’s house who has the same salon2 as me but a way better front end including the Denafrips Terminator DAC. Side by side, his DAC was better but not by much. The gains were fine there. It was the dedicated 2 channel preamp vs the XMC2 that took it to another level beyond the DAC gains (good chunk). I’m sure the A26 is better but I’m trying to lower my price of entry for DACs like the SU-9 pro ($499). I’m also curious how good the new G4P processors will be. Understood but will add this to the equation. Earlier in the thread Boomzilla suggested leaving any and all pre-amps out of the equation assuming of course your DAC had internal volume control of some nature. I had never done this but figured what the heck, keep an open mind and give it try. I haven't connected my A26 DAC to the RMC-1L since, the difference was night and day. Really blew me away and I was highly skeptical before trying this. It is worth pointing out one of the reviewers who reviewed the A26 thought it sounded better through his pre-amp but you have to understand his pre-amp was an $8500 affair being fed by a $1500 DAC but there could be some Confirmation/Expectation Bias going on there too. Same with your buddies BAT pre-amp not to mention tubes coming into play which really does create its own magic and sound signature. Normally I'm not one to believe price even enters into the equation of how good a component will sound, some might perform great others not so much. So now my method of HT bypass, quickly change balanced cables from feeding DAC directly to connecting to my RMC-1L for HT use. It's a bit more manual than flipping a switch but works and I have down to within a minute or so max. Easy peasy and sounds much better to boot. Am I correct that you simply disconnected the Left & Right XLR cables from the RMC-1L, connected them to the balanced L&R outputs of the A26 and used the volume control of the A26? And it was a significant improvement over the RMC-1L Dirac or not? I use an UltraRendu as a streamer. Are you aware of a DAC that costs less with the functionality of the A26 that does not have a built in streamer? |
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Post by routlaw on Feb 18, 2023 20:13:01 GMT -5
Am I correct that you simply disconnected the Left & Right XLR cables from the RMC-1L, connected them to the balanced L&R outputs of the A26 and used the volume control of the A26? And it was a significant improvement over the RMC-1L Dirac or not? I use an UltraRendu as a streamer. Are you aware of a DAC that costs less with the functionality of the A26 that does not have a built in streamer? Yes you understand this correctly, and no I am not aware of another DAC with this much functionality, inputs, and capability anywhere near this price range. There may be some DAC's that sound as good, perhaps better, but I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts one would have to pay many multiples in price compared to the A26. The Gustard X26 Pro does not have a built in streamer, same price with some changes to the circuit but they also share a lot in common. From what I know the A26 it was taken up a notch or two over the X26 Pro and much of this has to do with the AKM DAC chips. If you haven't kept up these two units, understand the X26 Pro is implemented with dual ESS Sabre 9038 Pro chips. Finally thanks to Boomzilla for suggesting this method, its one I might never have done had it not been for his insistance DAC's with built in volume control sound better than with a pre-amp. Have owned two Wadia CDP's back in their heyday and not the entry level models either. They used a similar (I believe) type of digital volume control. Also worth noting there are some who swear using a digital volume control via a computer based music serve running juke boxes like Audirvana sound much better bypassing a pre-amp. Have not tried this and it's something an individual would have to be very careful with paying close attention to the players built in volume control especially with DSD tracks. |
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Post by routlaw on Feb 18, 2023 20:17:54 GMT -5
Agree, must be miserable to have stuff blow up. I was being a bit facetious with my statement regarding Emo gear sounding bad. But yeah it's a pain taking things apart and rebuilding, but the shipping weight from out west to CT for a 100 lb amp was a lot back then, can't imagine what it would cost these days. I could relate more ugly Krell stories but will refrain for now. |
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Post by fbczar on Feb 18, 2023 21:25:58 GMT -5
Am I correct that you simply disconnected the Left & Right XLR cables from the RMC-1L, connected them to the balanced L&R outputs of the A26 and used the volume control of the A26? And it was a significant improvement over the RMC-1L Dirac or not? I use an UltraRendu as a streamer. Are you aware of a DAC that costs less with the functionality of the A26 that does not have a built in streamer? Yes you understand this correctly, and no I am not aware of another DAC with this much functionality, inputs, and capability anywhere near this price range. There may be some DAC's that sound as good, perhaps better, but I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts one would have to pay many multiples in price compared to the A26. The Gustard X26 Pro does not have a built in streamer, same price with some changes to the circuit but they also share a lot in common. From what I know the A26 it was taken up a notch or two over the X26 Pro and much of this has to do with the AKM DAC chips. If you haven't kept up these two units, understand the X26 Pro is implemented with dual ESS Sabre 9038 Pro chips. Finally thanks to Boomzilla for suggesting this method, its one I might never have done had it not been for his insistance DAC's with built in volume control sound better than with a pre-amp. Have owned two Wadia CDP's back in their heyday and not the entry level models either. They used a similar (I believe) type of digital volume control. Also worth noting there are some who swear using a digital volume control via a computer based music serve running juke boxes like Audirvana sound much better bypassing a pre-amp. Have not tried this and it's something an individual would have to be very careful with paying close attention to the players built in volume control especially with DSD tracks. I really appreciate your info. I have always been a great believer in pure analog volume controls along with the switching in high end preamps, but perhaps digital volume controls have improved over time. It would seem that a simple balanced, all analog preamp with balanced circuitry could also work well using your method of "home theater bypass". Obviously, that opens a lot of possibilities.The A26 may be impossible to beat in its price category and the streamer may be excellent as well. My UltraRendu setup is stunning so I am reluctant to give it up, but I am sure it could be used with the A26 if necessary. Have you heard the R26? I have always enjoyed R2R Dacs and own a Theta Gen. 5a which sounds great with CD's, but cannot play DSD or higher resolution files. The Theta was the predecessor of the Yggdrasil. I hope you will post more about your system. The A26 does seem to be a world beater. I own Magnepan 3.7i's so I am looking for additions for my system that can show them off. Thanks again. |
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Post by vcautokid on Feb 18, 2023 23:48:05 GMT -5
Competitive does not mean it has to be cheaper than Topping or any of the Shenzhen gang. It needs just to be good! If it is, then it will justify its price. Not sure we need another same old like already what is here. If execution is where it is at, then the price should be commensurate. As much as I like the baby aluminum candy bar DACs Emotiva has still, one of which I still use on my work computer because the audio on any laptop sucks. Including MACs too. Maybe just a little less suck. If Emotiva made a $1000.00 DAC and just floors us, then job well done. If not, there are plenty of great DACs to get already. Is Emotiva up to the task? Don't know. I liked the DC-1, and it stills goes on to this day. A friend of mine enjoys it no end. It was a present I gifted him for gratitude of his kindness.
So Emotiva it is time come on stage, and show us. Lets see what you got.
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 18, 2023 23:53:39 GMT -5
Still use my DC-1 too!
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Post by fbczar on Feb 19, 2023 12:29:39 GMT -5
Competitive does not mean it has to be cheaper than Topping or any of the Shenzhen gang. It needs just to be good! If it is, then it will justify its price. Not sure we need another same old like already what is here. If execution is where it is at, then the price should be commensurate. As much as I like the baby aluminum candy bar DACs Emotiva has still, one of which I still use on my work computer because the audio on any laptop sucks. Including MACs too. Maybe just a little less suck. If Emotiva made a $1000.00 DAC and just floors us, then job well done. If not, there are plenty of great DACs to get already. Is Emotiva up to the task? Don't know. I liked the DC-1, and it stills goes on to this day. A friend of mine enjoys it no end. It was a present I gifted him for gratitude of his kindness. So Emotiva it is time come on stage, and show us. Lets see what you got. I enjoy your viewpoints, but I really cannot see how a new Emotiva DAC can be remotely competitive with DACs like the A26 given the fact that Emotiva refuses to include DSD playback in any of their products even though they promised multiple times that they would. I suppose a DAC that cost 40% or 50% of what the A26 costs was PCM only, and sounded as good as the A26, would be interesting to many, but I doubt anything more expensive would be a home run for Emotiva. Maybe a stereo only DAC/Preamp with Analog volume controls and Home Theater Bypass would appeal to many. The A26 and R26 are pretty high bars to overcome in the marketplace. No doubt the new Gen4 processors will have DACs that are similar to the new stand alone stereo DAC. What do you think? |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 19, 2023 12:42:43 GMT -5
I enjoy your viewpoints, but I really cannot see how a new Emotiva DAC can be remotely competitive with DACs like the A26 given the fact that Emotiva refuses to include DSD playback in any of their products even though they promised multiple times that they would. I suppose a DAC that cost 40% or 50% of what the A26 costs was PCM only, and sounded as good as the A26, would be interesting to many, but I doubt anything more expensive would be a home run for Emotiva. Maybe a stereo only DAC/Preamp with Analog volume controls and Home Theater Bypass would appeal to many. The A26 and R26 are pretty high bars to overcome in the marketplace. No doubt the new Gen4 processors will have DACs that are similar to the new stand alone stereo DAC. What do you think? I think that different customers have different priorities. Almost the entirety of my music library is "Red Book CD Standard 44.1/16." Might I care for occasional DSD playback? Maybe, but would I actually pay extra for it? Maybe, but maybe not. Emotiva DID do a survey recently asking if we'd prefer MQA ability in a new DAC. Although I'm sure that how the Lounge voted is only a part of Emotiva's market research, they at least care enough to ask us. What I'd most want (but won't get from Emotiva) is a combination streamer-DAC. But the majority of customers seem to prefer separate components for streamers and DACs. Whatever Emotiva's new DAC may include or exclude, I'm confident that they've done their own market research and won't produce a product unless they're confident that it will sell. There are lots of "high bars to overcome" in the DAC marketplace, but as consumers, each of our bars include different preferences. The only thing that CAN be said for sure is that at least some of us are bound to be disappointed, no matter what the new DAC looks (and sounds) like. But I predict that the new Emotiva DAC will be a sales success... Boom |
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Post by fbczar on Feb 19, 2023 13:16:14 GMT -5
I enjoy your viewpoints, but I really cannot see how a new Emotiva DAC can be remotely competitive with DACs like the A26 given the fact that Emotiva refuses to include DSD playback in any of their products even though they promised multiple times that they would. I suppose a DAC that cost 40% or 50% of what the A26 costs was PCM only, and sounded as good as the A26, would be interesting to many, but I doubt anything more expensive would be a home run for Emotiva. Maybe a stereo only DAC/Preamp with Analog volume controls and Home Theater Bypass would appeal to many. The A26 and R26 are pretty high bars to overcome in the marketplace. No doubt the new Gen4 processors will have DACs that are similar to the new stand alone stereo DAC. What do you think? I think that different customers have different priorities. Almost the entirety of my music library is "Red Book CD Standard 44.1/16." Might I care for occasional DSD playback? Maybe, but would I actually pay extra for it? Maybe, but maybe not. Emotiva DID do a survey recently asking if we'd prefer MQA ability in a new DAC. Although I'm sure that how the Lounge voted is only a part of Emotiva's market research, they at least care enough to ask us. What I'd most want (but won't get from Emotiva) is a combination streamer-DAC. But the majority of customers seem to prefer separate components for streamers and DACs. Whatever Emotiva's new DAC may include or exclude, I'm confident that they've done their own market research and won't produce a product unless they're confident that it will sell. There are lots of "high bars to overcome" in the DAC marketplace, but as consumers, each of our bars include different preferences. The only thing that CAN be said for sure is that at least some of us are bound to be disappointed, no matter what the new DAC looks (and sounds) like. But I predict that the new Emotiva DAC will be a sales success... Boom I think the idea of a streamer / DAC is a strong one as long as the design includes or allows for a superior power supply as the A26 seems to provide. A fiber ethernet connection would also be killer, but I know it is only a dream. The big issue for me, relative to a stand alone DAC or preamp, is the loss of bass management and Dirac versus the XMC-2. A standalone DAC with Dirac that could handle high Res PCM would be hard to resist even without bass management. Perhaps Emotiva can stun me and provide a DAC in the stereo section of the new Gen4 processor that has the sound quality of an A26, Dirac and Bass management. Emotiva can be pretty inventive at times. The LFE only capability of the center sub output on the XMC-2 certainly fits in the category of inventive. I do not understand the resistance to DSD given Emotiva's promises relative to DSD in the Gen. 3 processors. Other manufacturers seem to pop out DSD capable DACs without a problem. |
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Post by routlaw on Feb 19, 2023 13:19:50 GMT -5
I'm inclined to think both of the above comments are valid and only time will tell how successful if at all Emotiva's new DAC (if and when it ever gets released) will be. Make no mistake though the times are very different and the competition extremely fierce from the last time they released a real DAC. I like Emotiva, own many of their products, have questioned some of their business decisions of the past, but this DAC thing will be a tough nut to crack successfully for them but wish them well however.
My guess and hope I am wrong is this will be just another boiler plate device and nothing special. In the meantime the folks across the pond are implementing some very seriously engineered and innovative designs that I don't see any company locally (relatively speaking) without charging on orders of magnitude more and even then might not perform to those standards.
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Post by routlaw on Feb 19, 2023 13:40:56 GMT -5
Folks I would like to throw a bit of water onto the conversation but hopefully in a helpful way or at least a way that most will feel they attained some worthwhile knowledge. There is another audio forum dedicated primarily to digital audio, used to be called computer audiophile but changed to audiophilestyle some time ago. There are people on this site that get very serious regarding the subject some are bit OCD in fact. The point I am coming to though a few months ago a recording a mastering engineer got involved on the Audirvana Origin page and shared what I thought was some profound information. Link below for those that would like to read everything this fellow has to say. audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/65629-audirvana-origin/page/7/#commentsand just for teasers below are a few screen grabs of two of his comments:  Attachments:
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Post by vcautokid on Feb 19, 2023 14:07:30 GMT -5
Competitive does not mean it has to be cheaper than Topping or any of the Shenzhen gang. It needs just to be good! If it is, then it will justify its price. Not sure we need another same old like already what is here. If execution is where it is at, then the price should be commensurate. As much as I like the baby aluminum candy bar DACs Emotiva has still, one of which I still use on my work computer because the audio on any laptop sucks. Including MACs too. Maybe just a little less suck. If Emotiva made a $1000.00 DAC and just floors us, then job well done. If not, there are plenty of great DACs to get already. Is Emotiva up to the task? Don't know. I liked the DC-1, and it stills goes on to this day. A friend of mine enjoys it no end. It was a present I gifted him for gratitude of his kindness. So Emotiva it is time come on stage, and show us. Lets see what you got. I enjoy your viewpoints, but I really cannot see how a new Emotiva DAC can be remotely competitive with DACs like the A26 given the fact that Emotiva refuses to include DSD playback in any of their products even though they promised multiple times that they would. I suppose a DAC that cost 40% or 50% of what the A26 costs was PCM only, and sounded as good as the A26, would be interesting to many, but I doubt anything more expensive would be a home run for Emotiva. Maybe a stereo only DAC/Preamp with Analog volume controls and Home Theater Bypass would appeal to many. The A26 and R26 are pretty high bars to overcome in the marketplace. No doubt the new Gen4 processors will have DACs that are similar to the new stand alone stereo DAC. What do you think? Could very well be, but I would like to think that Emotiva could do more than home theater. Which seems to be the core of their business. |
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Post by audiobill on Feb 19, 2023 15:59:40 GMT -5
How about a Roon core/dac/pre combo?
Much else will just be me too.
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Feb 20, 2023 2:10:02 GMT -5
The RMC-1, and the RMC-1L, and the XMC-2, all support DSD playback... via HDMI. So they do in fact support DSD playback from pretty well any modern "universal disc player" that can play SACD discs. (Almost all of the few remaining players that can actually play SACD discs have HDMI outputs.)
But, yes, supporting DSD over USB has proven to be more difficult than we thought (because of other choices we made in their internal USB signal path).
DSD, and MQA, and Roon are all cool... and each has a following of dedicated users... but they're all small parts of the market...
And there are a lot of different "streamers" with very different capabilities (like being able to play music from Amazon Music directly). And, if you're still a vinyl fan, you know that not all turntables support 45 RPM these days, and good luck finding one that can still play your classic 78's.
So, yes, our new DAC is going to include the features that we think will matter to MOST of our customers... And that means that we're not going to include every feature in the book to "check all the boxes"... And we are going to make sure that it sounds really good (although we also recognize that, no matter how it sounds, one or two people won't like it).
And we're also not going to go crazy trying to add yet another zero to the THD figure so we can win some imaginary "numbers war"... That war is over... the THD on any decent modern DAC is so ridiculously low that, if you hear a difference, that isn't why.
I enjoy your viewpoints, but I really cannot see how a new Emotiva DAC can be remotely competitive with DACs like the A26 given the fact that Emotiva refuses to include DSD playback in any of their products even though they promised multiple times that they would. I suppose a DAC that cost 40% or 50% of what the A26 costs was PCM only, and sounded as good as the A26, would be interesting to many, but I doubt anything more expensive would be a home run for Emotiva. Maybe a stereo only DAC/Preamp with Analog volume controls and Home Theater Bypass would appeal to many. The A26 and R26 are pretty high bars to overcome in the marketplace. No doubt the new Gen4 processors will have DACs that are similar to the new stand alone stereo DAC. What do you think? I think that different customers have different priorities. Almost the entirety of my music library is "Red Book CD Standard 44.1/16." Might I care for occasional DSD playback? Maybe, but would I actually pay extra for it? Maybe, but maybe not. Emotiva DID do a survey recently asking if we'd prefer MQA ability in a new DAC. Although I'm sure that how the Lounge voted is only a part of Emotiva's market research, they at least care enough to ask us. What I'd most want (but won't get from Emotiva) is a combination streamer-DAC. But the majority of customers seem to prefer separate components for streamers and DACs. Whatever Emotiva's new DAC may include or exclude, I'm confident that they've done their own market research and won't produce a product unless they're confident that it will sell. There are lots of "high bars to overcome" in the DAC marketplace, but as consumers, each of our bars include different preferences. The only thing that CAN be said for sure is that at least some of us are bound to be disappointed, no matter what the new DAC looks (and sounds) like. But I predict that the new Emotiva DAC will be a sales success... Boom |
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Post by audiobill on Feb 20, 2023 7:24:02 GMT -5
"And we're also not going to go crazy trying to add yet another zero to the THD figure so we can win some imaginary "numbers war"...
That war is over... the THD on any decent modern DAC is so ridiculously low that, if you hear a difference, that isn't why."
This is great, expecting to see separate massive linear power supplies for each channel, a robust power transformer and discrete fully quad balanced output stages for best sonics.....
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