Atmos Questions...

[klinemj]

For those who have an Atmos system, I have some questions...
1) Are you finding enough Atmos content in streaming? If so, where? I can stream DV and Atmos through my Roku Ultra to my XMC-2; and we have Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, Amazon Prime, etc. as content providers.
2) Do you think adding Front/Rear Height channels adds enough value to a 7.1 system?
3) Do you have the Emotiva height speakers or others? In any case, do you like them?

For perspective, I have an XMC-2 and I happen to have an XPA-5 with 1 channel that doesn't work. But, it has 4 that do...I could connect it to my XMC-2 and power Front/Rear left and right height speakers. I've got easy access to add the needed speaker cable and a wall jack to connect that to the amp.

So, I'm suddenly tempted...

Thanks for any thoughts!

Mark

[davidl81]

Mar 22, 2024 9:08:08 GMT -5 klinemj said:

For those who have an Atmos system, I have some questions...
1) Are you finding enough Atmos content in streaming? If so, where? I can stream DV and Atmos through my Roku Ultra to my XMC-2; and we have Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, Amazon Prime, etc. as content providers.
2) Do you think adding Front/Rear Height channels adds enough value to a 7.1 system?
3) Do you have the Emotiva height speakers or others? In any case, do you like them?

For perspective, I have an XMC-2 and I happen to have an XPA-5 with 1 channel that doesn't work. But, it has 4 that do...I could connect it to my XMC-2 and power Front/Rear left and right height speakers. I've got easy access to add the needed speaker cable and a wall jack to connect that to the amp.

So, I'm suddenly tempted...

Thanks for any thoughts!

Mark

Atmos streaming content is pretty robust. Especially on Disney +, Netflix, and Amazon Prime.

I will say the height speakers are hit or miss depending on the content, but the right Atmos movie with the heights added creates a super immersive experience.

Speaker wise I just have four Monorpice 8” 2 way speakers, I want to say they were in the range of $200 a pair. They are powered by two stereo modules from my XPA-9 G3.

[geebo]

Mar 22, 2024 9:17:23 GMT -5 davidl81 said:

Mar 22, 2024 9:08:08 GMT -5 klinemj said:

For those who have an Atmos system, I have some questions...
1) Are you finding enough Atmos content in streaming? If so, where? I can stream DV and Atmos through my Roku Ultra to my XMC-2; and we have Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, Amazon Prime, etc. as content providers.
2) Do you think adding Front/Rear Height channels adds enough value to a 7.1 system?
3) Do you have the Emotiva height speakers or others? In any case, do you like them?

For perspective, I have an XMC-2 and I happen to have an XPA-5 with 1 channel that doesn't work. But, it has 4 that do...I could connect it to my XMC-2 and power Front/Rear left and right height speakers. I've got easy access to add the needed speaker cable and a wall jack to connect that to the amp.

So, I'm suddenly tempted...

Thanks for any thoughts!

Mark

Atmos streaming content is pretty robust. Especially on Disney +, Netflix, and Amazon Prime.

I will say the height speakers are hit or miss depending on the content, but the right Atmos movie with the heights added creates a super immersive experience.

Speaker wise I just have four Monorpice 8” 2 way speakers, I want to say they were in the range of $200 a pair. They are powered by two stereo modules from my XPA-9 G3.

I only have front heights for a 5.1.2 system and that alone is worth it in my opinion. I will eventually add rear heights though. I'm using the discontinued Emotiva A1 speakers for the front heights.

[LuisV]

I agree with geebo ... Atmos is indeed available via the typical streaming services; however, the amount of activity coming from the height channels is obviously dependent on the content / content creator... so not all are created equal.   I've listened to systems with in-ceiling speakers with an angled tweeter, it could have been setup related, but so far I much prefer on-ceiling speakers instead; I'm using the Arendal 1961 height speakers for atmos channels:


Is it worth it?  To my ears... no question, 100% yes as it adds effects that wouldn't be normally heard.   For example, the opening scene of Mad Max has Max's voice directly overhead with height effects panning side to side, front to back... huge difference without the Atmos channels enabled.  



Here's another example, in the movie Midway, as the planes start their descent to attack the fleet, the general pauses... as he looks up... you hear the whirling of the planes directly over head.   Although not a great movie, basically any fighting scene within Midway, has great Atmos effects.  

[Zombie]

I had 4 Atmos ceiling speakers in my last house (just sold it). I’m building a new house with a dedicated theater room so I’ll again be putting Atmos speakers in. I find there’s an adequate amount of Atmos stuff and it certainly makes a noticeable difference (IMO). Since the rest of my speaker system is Martin Logan I used ML speakers for the Atmos content. I’ll be doing the same set-up in my new crib.

[marcl]

Mar 22, 2024 9:08:08 GMT -5 klinemj said:

For those who have an Atmos system, I have some questions...
1) Are you finding enough Atmos content in streaming? If so, where? I can stream DV and Atmos through my Roku Ultra to my XMC-2; and we have Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, Amazon Prime, etc. as content providers.
2) Do you think adding Front/Rear Height channels adds enough value to a 7.1 system?
3) Do you have the Emotiva height speakers or others? In any case, do you like them?

For perspective, I have an XMC-2 and I happen to have an XPA-5 with 1 channel that doesn't work. But, it has 4 that do...I could connect it to my XMC-2 and power Front/Rear left and right height speakers. I've got easy access to add the needed speaker cable and a wall jack to connect that to the amp.

So, I'm suddenly tempted...

Thanks for any thoughts!

Mark

I updated my system to Atmos four years ago when I traded up from the XMC-1 to XMC-2.  It definitely has been worth the effort and the amount of content has grown substantially since then.  A few notes:

• As others have mentioned, good amount of content on Netflix and Amazon.  Amazon now requires you to pay $2.99/mo to get Atmos and Dolby Vision even if you have Prime.
• I think everything on Apple TV+ is Atmos and Dolby Vision.  Fandango (formerly Vudu) also has a good bit of content.
• If you're interested in Atmos music ...Apple Music and Amazon Music have Atmos content.  And there are a few music download services that sell uncompressed Dolby TrueHD Atmos MKV files.
• Regarding hardware, 5.1.4 is the best starting point.  The reason is that for Atmos to be able to steer sound objects forward and backward in the room requires four tops. If you have only 2 tops, Atmos is restricted in steering the objects. 
• Note also that top speakers are not just for sound effects overhead.  Atmos uses ALL the speakers to steer sound objects through the 3D space of your room.  And not just sound effects, but also music and dialogue can be placed anywhere in the 3D space.  
• It is a good idea to follow the Dolby spec for placement.

Atmos-5.1.4-mounted.pdf (2.86 MB)

[ttocs]

Another 4 Tops fan here. Front and Rear Tops for ATMOS. I have the space for 6 Tops, but 4 works very well and ATMOS was worth it for me.

I'm using Martin Logan 4i speakers. They're really small, but they work, and I already had them from when I used them as on-wall Surrounds, and now they are mounted to the cathedral ceiling. I would suggest getting larger speakers than these.

[fbczar]

Mar 22, 2024 11:38:10 GMT -5 marcl said:

Mar 22, 2024 9:08:08 GMT -5 klinemj said:

For those who have an Atmos system, I have some questions...
1) Are you finding enough Atmos content in streaming? If so, where? I can stream DV and Atmos through my Roku Ultra to my XMC-2; and we have Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, Amazon Prime, etc. as content providers.
2) Do you think adding Front/Rear Height channels adds enough value to a 7.1 system?
3) Do you have the Emotiva height speakers or others? In any case, do you like them?

For perspective, I have an XMC-2 and I happen to have an XPA-5 with 1 channel that doesn't work. But, it has 4 that do...I could connect it to my XMC-2 and power Front/Rear left and right height speakers. I've got easy access to add the needed speaker cable and a wall jack to connect that to the amp.

So, I'm suddenly tempted...

Thanks for any thoughts!

Mark

I updated my system to Atmos four years ago when I traded up from the XMC-1 to XMC-2.  It definitely has been worth the effort and the amount of content has grown substantially since then.  A few notes:

• As others have mentioned, good amount of content on Netflix and Amazon.  Amazon now requires you to pay $2.99/mo to get Atmos and Dolby Vision even if you have Prime.
• I think everything on Apple TV+ is Atmos and Dolby Vision.  Fandango (formerly Vudu) also has a good bit of content.
• If you're interested in Atmos music ...Apple Music and Amazon Music have Atmos content.  And there are a few music download services that sell uncompressed Dolby TrueHD Atmos MKV files.
• Regarding hardware, 5.1.4 is the best starting point.  The reason is that for Atmos to be able to steer sound objects forward and backward in the room requires four tops. If you have only 2 tops, Atmos is restricted in steering the objects. 
• Note also that top speakers are not just for sound effects overhead.  Atmos uses ALL the speakers to steer sound objects through the 3D space of your room.  And not just sound effects, but also music and dialogue can be placed anywhere in the 3D space.  
• It is a good idea to follow the Dolby spec for placement.

View Attachment

I find 4 Atmos speakers has the happy effect of pressurizing the room.

[marcl]

A couple more things to think about ...

• I had a couple speakers and experimented with whether to do 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 .... the overwhelming conclusion based on how Atmos works steering objects is that 5.1.4 would be the better solution.  I ended up doing 7.1.4.
• I experimented mounting them as heights vs tops .... well, actually some people and even some Dolby people use those terms interchangeably.  In the XMC-2, those speakers are called Height in the menu, but when you go into the menu you get to choose whether they are Height or Top.  But whatever you call them ... look at the Dolby spec and note that the overhead speakers are mounted to the ceiling away from the walls ... so not at the ceiling against the side front or rear walls, but rather on the ceiling away from the walls.  Tops.
• We probably all went through a period of standing on a stepstool with our ear to the Top speakers wondering why no sound seems to be coming out.  Don't do that, it doesn't work that way.
• But ... not all Atmos mixes are good Atmos mixes.  Some engineers - maybe even more so those now doing Atmos conversions of music - still are thinking channels and not objects.  So their mixes may not take advantage of what Atmos does best ... make the room disappear, and make the speakers disappear.
• Setting levels and distances really makes a big difference in Atmos imaging.  Use a good resource like the most recent Spears & Munsil Ultra HD Benchmark with Atmos Audio files on Disc 3.

[LCSeminole]

Mar 22, 2024 12:25:14 GMT -5 marcl said:

A couple more things to think about ...

• I had a couple speakers and experimented with whether to do 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 .... the overwhelming conclusion based on how Atmos works steering objects is that 5.1.4 would be the better solution.  I ended up doing 7.1.4.
• I experimented mounting them as heights vs tops .... well, actually some people and even some Dolby people use those terms interchangeably.  In the XMC-2, those speakers are called Height in the menu, but when you go into the menu you get to choose whether they are Height or Top.  But whatever you call them ... look at the Dolby spec and note that the overhead speakers are mounted to the ceiling away from the walls ... so not at the ceiling against the side front or rear walls, but rather on the ceiling away from the walls.  Tops.
• We probably all went through a period of standing on a stepstool with our ear to the Top speakers wondering why no sound seems to be coming out.  Don't do that, it doesn't work that way.
• But ... not all Atmos mixes are good Atmos mixes.  Some engineers - maybe even more so those now doing Atmos conversions of music - still are thinking channels and not objects.  So their mixes may not take advantage of what Atmos does best ... make the room disappear, and make the speakers disappear.
• Setting levels and distances really makes a big difference in Atmos imaging.  Use a good resource like the most recent Spears & Munsil Ultra HD Benchmark with Atmos Audio files on Disc 3.

Just curious marcl, have you tried/used the Atmos calibration disc in the link below, if so was it worth it?

spatialcd.com/

[AudioHTIT]

Agree with the other comments that Atmos content is readily available and worth it, I’ll just add that for Netflix, you must have the ‘Premium’ plan to get UHD/4K & Atmos.

[marcl]

Mar 22, 2024 12:58:57 GMT -5 LCSeminole said:

Mar 22, 2024 12:25:14 GMT -5 marcl said:

A couple more things to think about ...

• I had a couple speakers and experimented with whether to do 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 .... the overwhelming conclusion based on how Atmos works steering objects is that 5.1.4 would be the better solution.  I ended up doing 7.1.4.
• I experimented mounting them as heights vs tops .... well, actually some people and even some Dolby people use those terms interchangeably.  In the XMC-2, those speakers are called Height in the menu, but when you go into the menu you get to choose whether they are Height or Top.  But whatever you call them ... look at the Dolby spec and note that the overhead speakers are mounted to the ceiling away from the walls ... so not at the ceiling against the side front or rear walls, but rather on the ceiling away from the walls.  Tops.
• We probably all went through a period of standing on a stepstool with our ear to the Top speakers wondering why no sound seems to be coming out.  Don't do that, it doesn't work that way.
• But ... not all Atmos mixes are good Atmos mixes.  Some engineers - maybe even more so those now doing Atmos conversions of music - still are thinking channels and not objects.  So their mixes may not take advantage of what Atmos does best ... make the room disappear, and make the speakers disappear.
• Setting levels and distances really makes a big difference in Atmos imaging.  Use a good resource like the most recent Spears & Munsil Ultra HD Benchmark with Atmos Audio files on Disc 3.

Just curious marcl, have you tried/used the Atmos calibration disc in the link below, if so was it worth it?

spatialcd.com/

Yes I bought it as soon as it was available, which was a few months before S&M did their latest release.  I got the download files, not the disc version.  So yes, it is useful, but with some qualifications:

1. It's the only way to use REW to measure ALL of the speakers in an Atmos setup.  Otherwise, REW only measures 7.1.  So I think for that alone, it's worth it.
2. I don't think the sweep files do the timing reference chirp properly.  REW plays both the initial and final chirp from the same reference speaker.  SATK plays the second chirp from the speaker being tested, and I have seen different impulse response results between using REW normally and using SATK.  In the case of LFE, you never hear the second chirp because it tries to play from the sub, and so you don't get the LFE impulse response.
3. I have used the SATK Levels files and also the S&M Levels.  The results are different.  Having listened to a few hours of interviews with S&M, I trust their methodology far more than Channa and Joe.  Also, I notice Channa put the Height speakers in the room corners as is evident on the Dolby Atmos Renderer graphic on the video.  S&M don't show the Dolby Atmos Renderer, but their graphic depicts the Height speakers in the locations similar to the Dolby spec.

Bottom line is, I use S&M to set the levels and SATK for the frequency sweeps.  If I have to do anything with precise impulse response (typically not requiring Top speakers) I use REW directly.

[klinemj]

Thanks all! Good input...I think I'll start looking for some decent used speakers...thinking "on ceiling" to be exact. I guess those are technically "Top" not "height". The terminology is all new to me, despite reading about it for years.

Mark

[cwmcobra]

I'll add that it has been suggested that you timbre-match all of the speakers in your system. My LCR and surrounds are all Klipsch Heritage models. None are made for ceiling installation, so I bought other Klipsch speakers designed for that purpose. Not everyone agrees, but if you like that idea, it might be worth it to focus on good used speakers of the brand and type that you own. Others are very happy with mixing brands and types, especially in the overhead. Many are happy with the RSL speakers, for example.

RSL Link

Cheers!

Chuck

[klinemj]

Mar 22, 2024 14:16:00 GMT -5 cwmcobra said:

I'll add that it has been suggested that you timbre-match all of the speakers in your system. My LCR and surrounds are all Klipsch Heritage models. None are made for ceiling installation, so I bought other Klipsch speakers designed for that purpose. Not everyone agrees, but if you like that idea, it might be worth it to focus on good used speakers of the brand and type that you own. Others are very happy with mixing brands and types, especially in the overhead. Many are happy with the RSL speakers, for example.

RSL Link

Cheers!

Chuck

Thanks - I can't really timber match (Maggies for FR/FL, Emotiva surrounds, Paradigm Center, Rythmik sub...), and I've never noticed anything glaring as an outage. I'd love some of the newer Emotiva top/height speakers (A1 or newer). Their surrounds are very nice.

Mark

[marcl]

Mar 22, 2024 14:31:29 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Mar 22, 2024 14:16:00 GMT -5 cwmcobra said:

I'll add that it has been suggested that you timbre-match all of the speakers in your system. My LCR and surrounds are all Klipsch Heritage models. None are made for ceiling installation, so I bought other Klipsch speakers designed for that purpose. Not everyone agrees, but if you like that idea, it might be worth it to focus on good used speakers of the brand and type that you own. Others are very happy with mixing brands and types, especially in the overhead. Many are happy with the RSL speakers, for example.

RSL Link

Cheers!

Chuck

Thanks - I can't really timber match (Maggies for FR/FL, Emotiva surrounds, Paradigm Center, Rythmik sub...), and I've never noticed anything glaring as an outage. I'd love some of the newer Emotiva top/height speakers (A1 or newer). Their surrounds are very nice.

Mark

p.p.s.  I use LRS for surrounds and MMGW for front tops 

[KeithL]

I'm just dropping by for a minute to meddle (I haven't been following this entire thread)...

However there is something I thought I'd mention about REW... and using REW to take measurements...
As MarcL says, REW itself only supports 7.1 channels, and sometimes it can be tricky to even convince a computer to send signals properly to all seven channels...
And convincing it to produce an Atmos output is probably just not going to happen.
And this can be a problem if you're determined to have REW run all of your tests automatically...

HOWEVER, it is worth noting that, when we do "room measurements" and "room correction", we are really just measuring the speakers and the room.
So we are REALLY just measuring the response of each speaker, at its chosen location in the room, individually...
We don't need to measure the pre/pro (or even the amplifiers) because, compared to speakers and rooms, all of the channels in your electronics are going to be pretty much the same.
(Unless you are using tube gear, or something else unusual, the channels on the preamp or processor, and your amplifiers, are going to be both flat and pretty much the same.)

Here's how you do it...

- Set REW up to test your LEFT FRONT speaker.
- NOW just pretend that the LEFT FRONT output of your pre/pro is the one output of a one-channel test generator.
- Plug the interconnects going to each of your amplifier channels into that same output on your pre/pro - one at a time.
- And, for each one, run the same test, and record the results.
- (Be sure to save the results for each under a different name so you can keep track of them.)
- (And, at that point, you can also have REW calculate a set of corrections for that channel, and save those too.)

NOTE that this is going to enable you to measure all of your speakers individually.
However, since it is not using each channel on the pre/pro separately, it is not going to enable you to take "confirmation measurements" after entering your corrections into each channel individually.
It is also obviously not going to enable you to take any "combined multi-speaker measurements".

I would suggest using REW this way to get your initial measurements...
Then either figure out your corrections manually...
Or have REW calculate the corrections for each channel for you...
Then, after entering the corrections, you can use a test disc to confirm that the results SOUND GOOD.
(This WILL enable you to measure your height channels... and to know what you need to do to apply corrections to them if necessary.)

Another "manual method" for testing things is simply to connect what you want to test manually after applying a monaural signal to all channels in something like "all stereo" mode.
You can quite literally send the test signal to ALL of your channels... then physically disconnect the interconnects going to all of the amplifier channels except the one you want to test.
Simply play the test signal to "all channels"... then disconnect all the channels... and ONLY reconnect the channel you want to test.
The result will be that the test signal will only be playing out of the channel you want to test.
This would be VERY CUMBERSOME to do frequently... 
But, as a method to test what you have, once when you set things up, without having to do anything fancy or buy special hardware, it's not such a bad solution.

Mar 22, 2024 13:40:59 GMT -5 marcl said:

Mar 22, 2024 12:58:57 GMT -5 LCSeminole said:

Just curious marcl, have you tried/used the Atmos calibration disc in the link below, if so was it worth it?

spatialcd.com/

Yes I bought it as soon as it was available, which was a few months before S&M did their latest release.  I got the download files, not the disc version.  So yes, it is useful, but with some qualifications:

1. It's the only way to use REW to measure ALL of the speakers in an Atmos setup.  Otherwise, REW only measures 7.1.  So I think for that alone, it's worth it.
2. I don't think the sweep files do the timing reference chirp properly.  REW plays both the initial and final chirp from the same reference speaker.  SATK plays the second chirp from the speaker being tested, and I have seen different impulse response results between using REW normally and using SATK.  In the case of LFE, you never hear the second chirp because it tries to play from the sub, and so you don't get the LFE impulse response.
3. I have used the SATK Levels files and also the S&M Levels.  The results are different.  Having listened to a few hours of interviews with S&M, I trust their methodology far more than Channa and Joe.  Also, I notice Channa put the Height speakers in the room corners as is evident on the Dolby Atmos Renderer graphic on the video.  S&M don't show the Dolby Atmos Renderer, but their graphic depicts the Height speakers in the locations similar to the Dolby spec.

Bottom line is, I use S&M to set the levels and SATK for the frequency sweeps.  If I have to do anything with precise impulse response (typically not requiring Top speakers) I use REW directly.

[klinemj]

Mar 22, 2024 15:17:08 GMT -5 KeithL said:

I'm just dropping by for a minute to meddle (I haven't been following this entire thread)...

However there is something I thought I'd mention about REW... and using REW to take measurements...

Thanks Keith...but...I'd rather avoid turning this into an REW thread.

Mark

[LuisV]

Techno Dad from SG provides a couple of Atmos music mixes to test things out.  Check out the videos below for the downloads; I added them to Plex, so it was rather easy to play through my system.  It's rather cool as he provides the visual from the Dolby Atmos rederer, so the visuals show where the effect should be coming from:

[LuisV]

I think I've posted these in the Lounge before... I used Anthony Grimani's top speaker placement recommendation as guide for my setup.  If you're not sure who he is, it's worth a quick google search...