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Post by davidl81 on Mar 22, 2024 16:33:06 GMT -5
Dolby has an app on Apple TV and other various smart services that has some super cool Atmos demos.
Also, I would not worry at all about timbre matching the Atmos speakers. There is absolutely no way you would be able to notice any difference in them.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 22, 2024 16:51:07 GMT -5
I absolutely agree with 5.1.4 being the most sensible speaker arrangement... especially if you don't have a VERY large room. At the risk of seeming a bit cynical I simply don't think it's a major priority to have enough speakers to provide "pinpoint placement anywhere in the room". A GOOD 5.1.4 system does an excellent job of pinpointing sounds across the front stage - where that's most important. A pair of surrounds adds the ability to localize "sound that surrounds" - whether "stuff happening behind you" or "ambience". And two pairs of heights provide that third height dimension - with the ability to control both the left/right and the front/back aspect of where sounds are located. I think that this is all you really need to get a proper "immersive experience" from most Atmos content... And, if I had a bigger budget, I would much rather spend more money on BETTER speakers than on simply adding MORE speakers... For those who have an Atmos system, I have some questions... 1) Are you finding enough Atmos content in streaming? If so, where? I can stream DV and Atmos through my Roku Ultra to my XMC-2; and we have Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, Amazon Prime, etc. as content providers. 2) Do you think adding Front/Rear Height channels adds enough value to a 7.1 system? 3) Do you have the Emotiva height speakers or others? In any case, do you like them? For perspective, I have an XMC-2 and I happen to have an XPA-5 with 1 channel that doesn't work. But, it has 4 that do...I could connect it to my XMC-2 and power Front/Rear left and right height speakers. I've got easy access to add the needed speaker cable and a wall jack to connect that to the amp. So, I'm suddenly tempted... Thanks for any thoughts! Mark I updated my system to Atmos four years ago when I traded up from the XMC-1 to XMC-2. It definitely has been worth the effort and the amount of content has grown substantially since then. A few notes: - As others have mentioned, good amount of content on Netflix and Amazon. Amazon now requires you to pay $2.99/mo to get Atmos and Dolby Vision even if you have Prime.
- I think everything on Apple TV+ is Atmos and Dolby Vision. Fandango (formerly Vudu) also has a good bit of content.
- If you're interested in Atmos music ...Apple Music and Amazon Music have Atmos content. And there are a few music download services that sell uncompressed Dolby TrueHD Atmos MKV files.
- Regarding hardware, 5.1.4 is the best starting point. The reason is that for Atmos to be able to steer sound objects forward and backward in the room requires four tops. If you have only 2 tops, Atmos is restricted in steering the objects.
- Note also that top speakers are not just for sound effects overhead. Atmos uses ALL the speakers to steer sound objects through the 3D space of your room. And not just sound effects, but also music and dialogue can be placed anywhere in the 3D space.
- It is a good idea to follow the Dolby spec for placement.
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Post by marcl on Mar 22, 2024 17:41:58 GMT -5
I'm just dropping by for a minute to meddle (I haven't been following this entire thread)... However there is something I thought I'd mention about REW... and using REW to take measurements... As MarcL says, REW itself only supports 7.1 channels, and sometimes it can be tricky to even convince a computer to send signals properly to all seven channels... And convincing it to produce an Atmos output is probably just not going to happen. And this can be a problem if you're determined to have REW run all of your tests automatically... HOWEVER, it is worth noting that, when we do "room measurements" and "room correction", we are really just measuring the speakers and the room. So we are REALLY just measuring the response of each speaker, at its chosen location in the room, individually... We don't need to measure the pre/pro (or even the amplifiers) because, compared to speakers and rooms, all of the channels in your electronics are going to be pretty much the same. (Unless you are using tube gear, or something else unusual, the channels on the preamp or processor, and your amplifiers, are going to be both flat and pretty much the same.) Here's how you do it... - Set REW up to test your LEFT FRONT speaker. - NOW just pretend that the LEFT FRONT output of your pre/pro is the one output of a one-channel test generator. - Plug the interconnects going to each of your amplifier channels into that same output on your pre/pro - one at a time. - And, for each one, run the same test, and record the results. - (Be sure to save the results for each under a different name so you can keep track of them.) - (And, at that point, you can also have REW calculate a set of corrections for that channel, and save those too.) NOTE that this is going to enable you to measure all of your speakers individually. However, since it is not using each channel on the pre/pro separately, it is not going to enable you to take "confirmation measurements" after entering your corrections into each channel individually. It is also obviously not going to enable you to take any "combined multi-speaker measurements". I would suggest using REW this way to get your initial measurements... Then either figure out your corrections manually... Or have REW calculate the corrections for each channel for you... Then, after entering the corrections, you can use a test disc to confirm that the results SOUND GOOD. (This WILL enable you to measure your height channels... and to know what you need to do to apply corrections to them if necessary.) Another "manual method" for testing things is simply to connect what you want to test manually after applying a monaural signal to all channels in something like "all stereo" mode. You can quite literally send the test signal to ALL of your channels... then physically disconnect the interconnects going to all of the amplifier channels except the one you want to test. Simply play the test signal to "all channels"... then disconnect all the channels... and ONLY reconnect the channel you want to test. The result will be that the test signal will only be playing out of the channel you want to test. This would be VERY CUMBERSOME to do frequently... But, as a method to test what you have, once when you set things up, without having to do anything fancy or buy special hardware, it's not such a bad solution. Yes I bought it as soon as it was available, which was a few months before S&M did their latest release. I got the download files, not the disc version. So yes, it is useful, but with some qualifications: - It's the only way to use REW to measure ALL of the speakers in an Atmos setup. Otherwise, REW only measures 7.1. So I think for that alone, it's worth it.
- I don't think the sweep files do the timing reference chirp properly. REW plays both the initial and final chirp from the same reference speaker. SATK plays the second chirp from the speaker being tested, and I have seen different impulse response results between using REW normally and using SATK. In the case of LFE, you never hear the second chirp because it tries to play from the sub, and so you don't get the LFE impulse response.
- I have used the SATK Levels files and also the S&M Levels. The results are different. Having listened to a few hours of interviews with S&M, I trust their methodology far more than Channa and Joe. Also, I notice Channa put the Height speakers in the room corners as is evident on the Dolby Atmos Renderer graphic on the video. S&M don't show the Dolby Atmos Renderer, but their graphic depicts the Height speakers in the locations similar to the Dolby spec.
Bottom line is, I use S&M to set the levels and SATK for the frequency sweeps. If I have to do anything with precise impulse response (typically not requiring Top speakers) I use REW directly.
The thing is ... as I think you mentioned ... you can't use this method to check post-EQ for either PEQ or Dirac. And that is a really important step ... to confirm if the room correction achieved the desired result and tweak if necessary. And with Dirac in particular, there can be small discrepancies that can be fixed. And there is no other way to know unless you use a method such as SATK. |
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Post by marcl on Mar 22, 2024 17:46:36 GMT -5
I absolutely agree with 5.1.4 being the most sensible speaker arrangement... especially if you don't have a VERY large room. At the risk of seeming a bit cynical I simply don't think it's a major priority to have enough speakers to provide "pinpoint placement anywhere in the room". A GOOD 5.1.4 system does an excellent job of pinpointing sounds across the front stage - where that's most important. A pair of surrounds adds the ability to localize "sound that surrounds" - whether "stuff happening behind you" or "ambience". And two pairs of heights provide that third height dimension - with the ability to control both the left/right and the front/back aspect of where sounds are located. I think that this is all you really need to get a proper "immersive experience" from most Atmos content... And, if I had a bigger budget, I would much rather spend more money on BETTER speakers than on simply adding MORE speakers... I updated my system to Atmos four years ago when I traded up from the XMC-1 to XMC-2. It definitely has been worth the effort and the amount of content has grown substantially since then. A few notes: - As others have mentioned, good amount of content on Netflix and Amazon. Amazon now requires you to pay $2.99/mo to get Atmos and Dolby Vision even if you have Prime.
- I think everything on Apple TV+ is Atmos and Dolby Vision. Fandango (formerly Vudu) also has a good bit of content.
- If you're interested in Atmos music ...Apple Music and Amazon Music have Atmos content. And there are a few music download services that sell uncompressed Dolby TrueHD Atmos MKV files.
- Regarding hardware, 5.1.4 is the best starting point. The reason is that for Atmos to be able to steer sound objects forward and backward in the room requires four tops. If you have only 2 tops, Atmos is restricted in steering the objects.
- Note also that top speakers are not just for sound effects overhead. Atmos uses ALL the speakers to steer sound objects through the 3D space of your room. And not just sound effects, but also music and dialogue can be placed anywhere in the 3D space.
- It is a good idea to follow the Dolby spec for placement.
And as I listen to every Zoomer of people taking about mixing for Atmos that I can find ... they all say they use a 7.1.4 system as the reference. Yes, I agree 5.1.4 is the best starting point, and 5.1.4 is significantly better than 7.1.2. I think it depends a lot on your ability to get surround speakers away from the walls. If you're doing 5.1.4 and the surrounds are on the side walls and you have a few feet of space behind the couch, there is likely going to be a hole that can be filled with 7.1.4. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Mar 22, 2024 18:10:16 GMT -5
If you're doing 5.1.4 and the surrounds are on the side walls and you have a few feet of space behind the couch, there is likely going to be a hole that can be filled with 7.1.4. This is my situation. The seating is in the middle of the space fore/aft, so when I went from 5.1 to 7.1 things got great. Now with 7.1.4 it's greater. The ATMOS version of Bladerunner is a fantastic immersive soundtrack! |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Mar 23, 2024 5:59:08 GMT -5
Is there any "magic" or minimum specs for top speakers? I have some old Paradigm surrounds (very low end of their line), and I'll look up their specs when I get home from traveling. But, I was just thinking - I have mounts I can connect to the ceiling and aim them anywhere I want. It might be a good start until I get some more proper top speakers (if they are not sufficient).
Mark
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Mar 23, 2024 7:17:28 GMT -5
Is there any "magic" or minimum specs for top speakers? I have some old Paradigm surrounds (very low end of their line), and I'll look up their specs when I get home from traveling. But, I was just thinking - I have mounts I can connect to the ceiling and aim them anywhere I want. It might be a good start until I get some more proper top speakers (if they are not sufficient). Mark There might be some magic, but I haven't discovered the secret. I would not recommend to anyone to use the speakers I'm using for ATMOS. They have tiny 4" woofers, are rated down to just below 80Hz but only achieve 100Hz when measured as installed on the ceiling, but, they work very well. I set the crossover for them at 130Hz. Yeah, I know, blah blah blah about high crossover settings, but it's the only setting that works for these speakers in their locations. I came by this by listening, then confirming by measurement to verify what was happening at the crossover region. Why does this work? I never really thought about it until just now. So I looked up how long the wavelength is at 130Hz, and it's almost exactly the same distance as my head to each ATMOS Top speaker location. Huh. Happy accident! Can I localize the subwoofers making the frequencies below 130Hz when playing a great ATMOS movie? No. It just sounds great! Why is this? Dunno, don't care frankly. With that said, I'd still like to have better speakers up there but it's at the bottom of my list of wants. Being able to aim the Tops is really important!!! I aimed mine very precisely! Maybe this is a reason they work so well? All of my speakers are Martin Logan. The little speakers all have similar tweeters, different sizes, but same tech. I'm a huge fan of folded tweeters! I'm also a fan of having the same speaker all around, but can't in my room. The more similar all speakers are, the better. Before ATMOS came along, the two best 5.1 HT setups I listened to had the same similarity, all five speakers were the same model! The sound of both systems was amazing! |
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Post by marcl on Mar 23, 2024 7:43:28 GMT -5
Is there any "magic" or minimum specs for top speakers? I have some old Paradigm surrounds (very low end of their line), and I'll look up their specs when I get home from traveling. But, I was just thinking - I have mounts I can connect to the ceiling and aim them anywhere I want. It might be a good start until I get some more proper top speakers (if they are not sufficient). Mark The thing to remember about Atmos as opposed to Surround Sound ... With Surround Sound, the sounds were mixed in the studio, assigned to a speaker channel or possibly panned between two, and typically all the important dialogue and music comes from the front. What comes from each channel to each speaker is predetermined and fixed. With Atmos the important sounds are objects placed in 3D space. The metadata with the object tells the processor where to place the sound, but the processor determines how to process the sound and send elements of the sound to whatever speakers are available to place the sound (and create a size dimension of the sound) in each system in real time. Hence the Dolby spec for theaters which is, all the speakers are full range down to around 30Hz and all are aimed to optimize the spatial location of sound objects. As ttocs says, aiming the speakers is really important. As is getting the time delays and levels matched very precisely. Tops and surrounds and rears can have elements of dialogue, music, transient effects ... anything that can be in the front speakers can also be in the Atmos speakers in order to steer the sound through the 3D space. And with Atmos music, instruments can be all around you. The compromise I made in my system is that I felt the speakers behind me - rear tops and rear surrounds - were less critical due to the thickness of my 69 year old head  |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Mar 23, 2024 8:36:37 GMT -5
Hence the Dolby spec for theaters which is, all the speakers are full range down to around 30Hz and all are aimed to optimize the spatial location of sound objects. This at least in part explains why the Emotiva Atmos demo at an old Emofest was so amazing. I'll have to find my notes to find exactly what they used, but as I recall they had some of their smaller towers as height and surround speakers. It was phenomenal. Mark |
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Post by PaulBe on Mar 23, 2024 9:12:42 GMT -5
I absolutely agree with 5.1.4 being the most sensible speaker arrangement... especially if you don't have a VERY large room. At the risk of seeming a bit cynical I simply don't think it's a major priority to have enough speakers to provide "pinpoint placement anywhere in the room". A GOOD 5.1.4 system does an excellent job of pinpointing sounds across the front stage - where that's most important. A pair of surrounds adds the ability to localize "sound that surrounds" - whether "stuff happening behind you" or "ambience". And two pairs of heights provide that third height dimension - with the ability to control both the left/right and the front/back aspect of where sounds are located. I think that this is all you really need to get a proper "immersive experience" from most Atmos content... And, if I had a bigger budget, I would much rather spend more money on BETTER speakers than on simply adding MORE speakers... I updated my system to Atmos four years ago when I traded up from the XMC-1 to XMC-2. It definitely has been worth the effort and the amount of content has grown substantially since then. A few notes: - As others have mentioned, good amount of content on Netflix and Amazon. Amazon now requires you to pay $2.99/mo to get Atmos and Dolby Vision even if you have Prime.
- I think everything on Apple TV+ is Atmos and Dolby Vision. Fandango (formerly Vudu) also has a good bit of content.
- If you're interested in Atmos music ...Apple Music and Amazon Music have Atmos content. And there are a few music download services that sell uncompressed Dolby TrueHD Atmos MKV files.
- Regarding hardware, 5.1.4 is the best starting point. The reason is that for Atmos to be able to steer sound objects forward and backward in the room requires four tops. If you have only 2 tops, Atmos is restricted in steering the objects.
- Note also that top speakers are not just for sound effects overhead. Atmos uses ALL the speakers to steer sound objects through the 3D space of your room. And not just sound effects, but also music and dialogue can be placed anywhere in the 3D space.
- It is a good idea to follow the Dolby spec for placement.
5.1 sources that depend on layout don’t translate as well to a 7.1 layout. There is a small compromise. Does a 7.1 layout do a worse job of front stage pin pointing than a 5.1 layout? Front stage should be dependent on LCR. ~~~ Concerning dimension perception: When using a .2 height arrangement, there is side-to-side and front-to-back height movement. I still hear this front-to-back movement stepping back from .6 heights to .2 heights. It's not just a visual trick of seeing something move on-screen from center to top of screen and then out of sight. My room is about 20’ long. My .2 heights/in-ceiling-tops are placed Anthony Grimani style about 13 degrees forward from MLP. With .2 heights, does the processor use front and back main speakers – LCR and L&R back/surr - for more of the front and back height information? In other words, does height object steering include use of main speakers for height object steering? I expect the answer is yes, with the distribution of steering determined by the embedded source object metadata (which may be simple or complicated), the processor programming, and the Height speaker count. The degree of distribution would be perceptual based on physical Height layout. ~~~ IMO, Anthony Grimani has the best and most practical advice for integrating speaker layout and channel selection for a given room size. The pics that LuisV offered show it in short form: emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1123623/threadOne more thing – Considering a Sub where LFE is selected in the RMC processor for the Sub output. If I cross-over height speakers to limit bandwidth and manage the bass from that height speaker, where does the bass from the cross-over'd height speakers get managed/reproduced when the Center Sub is set to LFE, and no other Subs are used? Is the crossover'd bass from the height speakers just lost because the Sub is set to LFE? All the main speakers are set to Large. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Mar 23, 2024 10:22:16 GMT -5
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Post by klinemj on Mar 23, 2024 15:03:51 GMT -5
I pulled the trigger on the Dayton bookshelf speakers and bought some wall jacks and cable. I'll pick up the speakers when I get home from ATL at my local Parts Express and give them a listen with my little BasX A100 amp to make sure the sound is decent. If I like them, up they go to the ceiling!
I couldn't resist the price cut and didn't want to wait and have the price go back up. They have a 45 day return policy, so might as well lock in!
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Post by marcl on Mar 23, 2024 16:09:31 GMT -5
I pulled the trigger on the Dayton bookshelf speakers and bought some wall jacks and cable. I'll pick up the speakers when I get home from ATL at my local Parts Express and give them a listen with my little BasX A100 amp to make sure the sound is decent. If I like them, up they go to the ceiling! I couldn't resist the price cut and didn't want to wait and have the price go back up. They have a 45 day return policy, so might as well lock in! I'll bet they work out really well. The AMT's should be good for imaging. And if those woofers dip below 100Hz a bit the crossover will be pretty nice. I ended up moving my tops a couple times. If you can stick to the Dolby spec for the angle from the MLP and the distance between speakers they should work really well. Especially if you can aim them precisely. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Mar 23, 2024 17:22:34 GMT -5
I pulled the trigger on the Dayton bookshelf speakers and bought some wall jacks and cable. I'll pick up the speakers when I get home from ATL at my local Parts Express and give them a listen with my little BasX A100 amp to make sure the sound is decent. If I like them, up they go to the ceiling! I couldn't resist the price cut and didn't want to wait and have the price go back up. They have a 45 day return policy, so might as well lock in! I'll bet they work out really well. The AMT's should be good for imaging. And if those woofers dip below 100Hz a bit the crossover will be pretty nice. I ended up moving my tops a couple times. If you can stick to the Dolby spec for the angle from the MLP and the distance between speakers they should work really well. Especially if you can aim them precisely. These are spec'd to 70, so I think they'll hit below 100. And, my brackets are very aim-able. They might not be strong enough for 12# speakers, but I already found some that hold up to 30# if I need them. Made of nice thick aluminum. Heavy Duty BracketsMark |
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Post by aswiss on Mar 24, 2024 7:14:49 GMT -5
Shouldn't Placements of the TOP Speakers be setup to the ears, instead of the seats? In a perfect world - distance of the Tops should be the same for Top Front as for TOP Rear. Measured from your ear position.
Anyway the pic gives a good idea where to start.
I think I've posted these in the Lounge before... I used Anthony Grimani's top speaker placement recommendation as guide for my setup. If you're not sure who he is, it's worth a quick google search...  |
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Post by LuisV on Mar 24, 2024 9:56:03 GMT -5
Shouldn't Placements of the TOP Speakers be setup to the ears, instead of the seats? In a perfect world - distance of the Tops should be the same for Top Front as for TOP Rear. Measured from your ear position.
Anyway the pic gives a good idea where to start.
I think I've posted these in the Lounge before... I used Anthony Grimani's top speaker placement recommendation as guide for my setup. If you're not sure who he is, it's worth a quick google search... Correct... he's emphasizing to aim tops at the seats, to indicate, in his opinion, in-ceiling speakers mounted straight down firing towards the floor is incorrect as most of the effect channel information would be lost due to being so far off axis. Keep in mind that we're all different, so my ear height would be different than my wife, our children, you, etc. etc. So aiming at the seats is actually, again, in his opinion, better as it gets the sound field into the proper area. Also note their placement... midway point between L/C and C/R... slightly different take than most "recommendations". Same with the back surrounds... much closer together. Just a different take on typical recommendations. I was considering using those sliding barndoor mounting hardware kits to provide a way of testing different rear surround placements to see what I preferred, but it hasn't happened yet.  |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Mar 24, 2024 14:20:24 GMT -5
I bought the Dayton B652 Air speakers for heights and will pick them up Tuesday. But, I didn't notice the brackets to mount the speakers look suitable to mount to a wall - but not to hang the speaker at an angle as a top/height speaker. So, I had to design a way to mount them...read on and input... First, here's the issue...note the speaker to wall bracket pointed to by the red arrow. This looks fine to hang the speaker on a wall. But, if the speaker is hanging at an angle to the ceiling ...no. Too much torque on the bracket. So, I think I need a plan...  So, here's what I came up with...I'm going to make some c-shaped (from the side) "brackets" that cradle the speakers even if hanging from an angle. They will be made out of 1*3 poplar (maybe 1*4) with zinc-coated corner brackets reinforcing each poplar-to-poplar connection (along with wood glue and finish nails, not shown). While the speaker's wall bracket is used, it bears minimal load as it's just preventing lateral movement of the speaker relative to the c-shaped cradle (and not carrying the weight of the speaker as it hangs from the ceiling). The cradle bears the load of the speaker's weight. And, a traditional speaker to ceiling mount holds the whole thing to the ceiling (I already have 4 in hand). Total cost of the cradles for 4 speakers is ~$32. Thoughts?  Mark (PS...while I could, in theory, screw my ceiling to speaker mount into the back of the speaker in somewhere other than where the current bracket is, I don't want to do that...don't want to accidentally pierce any internal electronics or mar the finish even on the back of the speaker) |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Mar 24, 2024 14:51:26 GMT -5
First, here's the issue...note the speaker to wall bracket pointed to by the red arrow. This looks fine to hang the speaker on a wall. But, if the speaker is hanging at an angle to the ceiling ...no. Too much torque on the bracket. So, I think I need a plan... Mark (PS...while I could, in theory, screw my ceiling to speaker mount into the back of the speaker in somewhere other than where the current bracket is, I don't want to do that...don't want to accidentally pierce any internal electronics or mar the finish even on the back of the speaker) Mark, I agree, too much torque on the wall hanger tab. Before I got to your PS, I was going to suggest a captive nut fitting that could be installed via the speaker wire connections hole. But I understand if you don't want to add more holes to the speaker cabinet. My little speakers are hanging from the captive nuts that were put in at the factory for wall mounting, and happen to be perfect for ceiling mounting. So all I had to do was to use 1/4" eye hook on the speaker, and an eye bolt into the ceiling joist. Then, using a double-eye turnbuckle at one end of the speaker back I was able to adjust the angle perfectly. |
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Post by klinemj on Mar 24, 2024 15:44:58 GMT -5
Before I got to your PS, I was going to suggest a captive nut fitting that could be installed via the speaker wire connections hole. But I understand if you don't want to add more holes to the speaker cabinet. My little speakers are hanging from the captive nuts that were put in at the factory for wall mounting, and happen to be perfect for ceiling mounting. So all I had to do was to use 1/4" eye hook on the speaker, and an eye bolt into the ceiling joist. Then, using a double-eye turnbuckle at one end of the speaker back I was able to adjust the angle perfectly. Yeah - these may be temporary to get used to ATMOS, then I may go to something better and sell the Daytons. So, I don't want to scar the cases (I even plan some padding on the metal to avoid scratches and/or vibrations). But, these look decent on paper! Mark |
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Post by klinemj on Mar 25, 2024 16:12:58 GMT -5
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