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Post by roadrunner on Dec 16, 2009 0:01:12 GMT -5
Chuckienut,
The graphs you linked for SVS PB13 sealed enclosure were very interesting. Even more so, because the reported performance of the soon to be released Emotiva ERS-212 subs are nearly identical. Earlier today Emotiva posted that the current release canidate was ruler flat from 19 Hz to 200 Hz at SPL of 127 Db.
I am anxious to see a full set of graphs on the ERS-212 as well as the full feature list and price. Chuckienut, what does the SVS sell for? Emotiva sure knows how to get us excited.
I agree with you on subs of both designs being available with outstanding performance. With computer modeling software in use these days, amazing results are achieveable, regardless of whether a ported or sealed design is used. The old "rules of thumb" no longer apply. We have to be open minded and do the homework to narrow down our "short list" of subs to audition.
The good part of this progress is sub designs have brought a large number of very good performing subs from both camps. The bad part is this all makes it harder than ever to know which subs to put on your short list. Good luck to all you in the market right now. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 0:27:25 GMT -5
Roadrunner, that is SVS's top of the line box subwoofer. The PB13-Ultra sells for $1599 - $1699 depending on the finish.
They also make a cylindrical version, the PC13-Ultra with the same driver that sells for $1399.
127dB on the Emo sub from 19-200Hz? That sounds too loud for any sub made on this planet for home use. I haven't seen the announcement yet but maybe you can re-check those volume figures. ;D
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Post by RayoVac on Dec 16, 2009 0:52:38 GMT -5
Subs do not get "sloppy." I used to have a girlfriend who was sloppy (she was ported). Look away... nothing to see here. I am to young to hear these kinds of remarks.  |
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Post by RayoVac on Dec 16, 2009 0:54:12 GMT -5
If those figures are anything close.. my SVS cylinder is going up for sale and I will end up with an entire house full of Emotiva stuff!!! Woot!!!!  My wife is gonna kill me, I blame you all!!!! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 1:06:23 GMT -5
I just took a look back at the Ilkka's Finnish sub tests at Home Theater Shack.
Most of the sub were in the 100-110 decibel range before maximum compression. A few of the loudest were in the 110-120 range but those seemed to be more in the upper frequencies. Several were slightly over 120dB's. That sounds more like a pro sound desgined sub.
My question would be why would anyone want a sub for home theater that hit 127 dB's? I would be more interested in a sub that was reasonably flat (+/- 3dB) from 125 or so down to 15-18 Hz with as low distortion as possible at maybe 110dB's. I don't think my condo foundation would take 127dB's even when the neighbors were gone. ;D
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Post by RayoVac on Dec 16, 2009 1:10:37 GMT -5
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Post by bigred7078 on Dec 16, 2009 1:12:10 GMT -5
Earlier today Emotiva posted that the current release canidate was ruler flat from 19 Hz to 200 Hz at SPL of 127 Db. where did they post this? i cant find it. Thanks! |
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Post by SeattleHTGuy on Dec 16, 2009 2:03:36 GMT -5
Well, I wouldn't say, "All Ported Subs Are Sloppy" but in my very amatuer life, my experience with underpowered ported subs.... I'd say they are all sloppy (note the underpowered bit). The mentioned SVS sub is not underpowered, can be manually tuned or at least port defeated and gets pretty great reviews.
As I think the SVS subs PB Ultra 13 appear to be both musical and HT capable ported. I haven't heard them yet but I have heard some non-online (meaning actually listened to in something other than the internet virtual world) high end ported stuff I liked.
What I know is crap though, is low power, low quality cheaply built stuff. Avoid the cheapest sub in each companies line and you will avoid most of the negative stuff out there. They almost always skimp out on amps and the actual speaker. Bad on both counts.... If everyone goes off to look for the biggest blast at the lowest price, that's what you'll find.
I also hate definitive statements. It is too brittle to say "all ported subs are inferior" just as much as it is to say "avoid the net providers of speakers because they are all garbage". Rather than ported vs unported, I'd ask.
1). Is it a musical sub? Meaning can it sound good at all levels and low frequencies. Does it easily distort? Is it underpowered or designed to just bounce against it's limits (ers)? I have found a little auditioning can answer these questions quickly. There are some really bad subs out there.
2). Does it even fit in the room? Do you care? I mean that Conquest thing is massive!!
3). Do you care if the company has been around a bit and is here to stay? I already had one sub fry itself and I'm glad that the company was around to fix it.
4). Why do you want the dang thing anyway? Music, Movies? or Transformers Revenge of the Fallen at reference? (This movie,, isn't winning an Acadamy Award but boy do they blow stuff up). I like a good loud adventure movie but don't really need to crack the concrete of my foundation with 12 hz signal. If you do, I'd get 4 of those Conquest thingies, they are insane!
OK, I blather.... In short.... Me like unported - others can like ported. I'm the defender of the little high powered fast sub. They work for me and the misses. If however, someone makes a small ported, fast, deep, and good looking sub that the world and bloggers think highly of; I'm for that one as well...
Oh..... I also like subs that have phase control. My little guys have a 0 or 180 switch. The subs I have don't have many control options but with room dynamics being a big issue with low frequencies, it's nice to be able to tweak to your ears delight. Also, be prepared to move your sub(s) around until you get what you like. Good sub - bad spot ='s bad experience.
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Post by Wideawake on Dec 16, 2009 14:22:04 GMT -5
I still vote for sealed. Always have, always will. Chuckie, the comparisons linked above are misleading. The sealed sub isn't really sealed. They used the same ported sub and merely plugged the ports. That does not make an efficient sealed sub! Notice that the size parameters are the same. A sealed sub requires a smaller volume than does a ported enclosure. For this test to be meaningful, we need, at a minimum, to know what kind of driver was used and whether that same driver would work well in ported as well as sealed designs. Then, two different builds need to be made; one ported and one sealed. Now we can compare. And by compare, I mean listening tests not just pretty graphs. I have no doubt that the ported version will likely be able to play louder, however the quality of the bass from the sealed sub should be better. That is my belief, given optimally designed enclosures for each. |
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Post by Wideawake on Dec 16, 2009 14:23:48 GMT -5
I used to have a girlfriend who was sloppy (she was ported). Too funny! I love your humor! ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 14:50:15 GMT -5
Chuckie, the comparisons linked above are misleading. I was afraid somebody would bring that up! ;D (Although I don't completely agree with your comments) That is the reason I included this link to the JL sub test below which you left out in your quote: '..........As mentioned above, these days there are outstanding subs from both designs. Oh, BTW, here is a link to a Ilkka Finnish test on a JL Fathom sealed sub that costs twice as much as the above SVS sub. Take a look at the tests results on this sub. www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/8152-jl-audio-fathom-f113.html(still always going for the sealed sub?).........." ;D |
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Post by Wideawake on Dec 16, 2009 15:05:45 GMT -5
Chuckie, I had not read the info in your third link so I left it out since I was not commenting on its contents. I don't know about the design considerations that went into building the F113. I don't dispute that there are sealed subs available in the market that sound like crap but the same could be said about ported subs. One can pick and choose isolated products to support one's views. If that's how this is played I'll wait until the Emo subs come to market and then we can continue this discussion with as much vim and gusto as you can muster.  |
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Post by Raven on Dec 16, 2009 15:43:42 GMT -5
Oh, BTW, here is a link to a Ilkka Finnish test on a JL Fathom sealed sub that costs twice as much as the above SVS sub. Take a look at the tests results on this sub. www.hometheatershack.com/forums/s....athom-f113.html(still always going for the sealed sub?).........." ;D Somehow link doesn't work  |
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Post by RayoVac on Dec 16, 2009 17:16:45 GMT -5
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Post by roadrunner on Dec 16, 2009 17:29:17 GMT -5
Chuckienut and others
I just spent the last two hours trying to find the post I saw recently from Emotiva on the performance on the ERS-212. It is no where to be found, or should I say that I was unable to find it again. I was either too high on my pain meds or the post was removed because they were not ready to release the info.
My mind is so foggy after going through so many threads hunting for "the post", but I think it was from Big Dan -- but it may have been Lonnie's or Dann G's. Sorry for not copying it when I first saw it. Oh, well, lesson learned. That will teach me not to be so lazy. It never occurred to me that it might get deleted. Thirty lashes with a wet noddle for me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 18:14:39 GMT -5
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Post by SeattleHTGuy on Dec 16, 2009 18:32:55 GMT -5
Well, neekos. I'd go for neither. I must admit, I've never heard either but as I stated earlier, if you purchase the cheapest in a sub makers line, you inevitably get bad amplification and sloppy sound. I think the lowest grade Velodynes, Paradigms, "fill in the blank adyne,dyme,- whatever" all sound really, really bad. Something has to give for cheap. Almost always, it is the ability to play without silly amounts of distortion.
My advice..... (Again, that of an enthusiast - not engineer). Wait, buy nothing until you can get the A5S. Compare it with the A3S, you get a box that weighs nearly twice as much, an amp with also nearly twice as much power; well 500 vs 300, and probably better build quality throughout, at minimum more internal bracing.
I can't say it enough, if you get the lowest grade in a line you get the lowest grade in a line. We all have budgets but it doesn't cost anything to just wait and save some more dough... Really, even people who are on really tight budgets can save and wait.... That's my holiday 2 cents.
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Post by roadrunner on Dec 16, 2009 18:50:14 GMT -5
Roadrunner, that is SVS's top of the line box subwoofer. The PB13-Ultra sells for $1599 - $1699 depending on the finish. They also make a cylindrical version, the PC13-Ultra with the same driver that sells for $1399. 127dB on the Emo sub from 19-200Hz? That sounds too loud for any sub made on this planet for home use. I haven't seen the announcement yet but maybe you can re-check those volume figures. ;D Since I have been unable to find the post, it is a moot point, but I think the way it was worded, the 127 dB was likely its maximum output not (sustained). The wording was something like: "...frequency response is flat as a board from 19Hz to 200Hz and can pump clean bass at 127 dB." That should be able to vibrate a few pictures off the walls, I would think. I can only guess what that means, but it seems obvious that it would be its maximum output. Where the post has been teleported to star date 2355 mark 2, we will just have to wait until Emotiva is ready to ship the finished product. None-the-less, I got very excited when I saw it. I was ready to order one on the spot even though I don't really need it. My current sub is more than sufficient, but the ERS-212 will be bought simply because it's concept is so sexy. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 19:28:38 GMT -5
Well, I wouldn't say, "All Ported Subs Are Sloppy" but in my very amatuer life, my experience with underpowered ported subs.... I'd say they are all sloppy (note the underpowered bit). The mentioned SVS sub is not underpowered, can be manually tuned or at least port defeated and gets pretty great reviews. As I think the SVS subs PB Ultra 13 appear to be both musical and HT capable ported. I haven't heard them yet but I have heard some non-online (meaning actually listened to in something other than the internet virtual world) high end ported stuff I liked. What I know is crap though, is low power, low quality cheaply built stuff. Avoid the cheapest sub in each companies line and you will avoid most of the negative stuff out there. They almost always skimp out on amps and the actual speaker. Bad on both counts.... If everyone goes off to look for the biggest blast at the lowest price, that's what you'll find. I also hate definitive statements. It is too brittle to say "all ported subs are inferior" just as much as it is to say "avoid the net providers of speakers because they are all garbage". Rather than ported vs unported, I'd ask. 1). Is it a musical sub? Meaning can it sound good at all levels and low frequencies. Does it easily distort? Is it underpowered or designed to just bounce against it's limits (ers)? I have found a little auditioning can answer these questions quickly. There are some really bad subs out there. 2). Does it even fit in the room? Do you care? I mean that Conquest thing is massive!! 3). Do you care if the company has been around a bit and is here to stay? I already had one sub fry itself and I'm glad that the company was around to fix it. 4). Why do you want the dang thing anyway? Music, Movies? or Transformers Revenge of the Fallen at reference? (This movie,, isn't winning an Acadamy Award but boy do they blow stuff up). I like a good loud adventure movie but don't really need to crack the concrete of my foundation with 12 hz signal. If you do, I'd get 4 of those Conquest thingies, they are insane! OK, I blather.... In short.... Me like unported - others can like ported. I'm the defender of the little high powered fast sub. They work for me and the misses. If however, someone makes a small ported, fast, deep, and good looking sub that the world and bloggers think highly of; I'm for that one as well... Oh..... I also like subs that have phase control. My little guys have a 0 or 180 switch. The subs I have don't have many control options but with room dynamics being a big issue with low frequencies, it's nice to be able to tweak to your ears delight. Also, be prepared to move your sub(s) around until you get what you like. Good sub - bad spot ='s bad experience. You know, I thought about the A5s. The question still stands though in terms of what would be more satisfying for both music and movies. I guess in that price range (A5S), there isn't much competition. |
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Animo
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Post by Animo on Dec 16, 2009 21:00:00 GMT -5
I still vote for sealed. Always have, always will. I can't wait to see the look on your face when you hear mine next month!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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My wife is gonna kill me, I blame you all!!!!
