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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 21:08:36 GMT -5
I still vote for sealed. Always have, always will......the quality of the bass from the sealed sub should be better. Wideawake, I have simply been responding to your comments and also comments before in this thread that seemed to voice the opinion that sealed subs were superior to ported subs. Yes, this was a general statement but it didn't seem to leave much room for doubt in the posters mind. It seemed to be a definite statement that sealed subs were in fact just better. I am giving a different opinion that this is no longer true as it might have been a number of years ago. I made the SVS comparison because it was exactly the same sub in both versions. The plugs when in does in effect make it effectively a sealed sub but I agree with you that it probably was not the best example to use. Since I already presumed some objection to this I included what I felt was a very well known sub and model, the JL Audio Fathom f113, which has received rave reviews all over the Internet. You said, "I don't know about the design considerations that went into building the F113." It is a sealed sub, it says so right on the test. Sorry about listing the wrong link above. "...Manufacturer specs: • Enclosure Type: Sealed..." www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/8152-jl-audio-fathom-f113.htmlThis is the very sub that is rated tops on the Official Craigsub rating list that is on the AVS forum and quoted all over the Internet including this forum. www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768150I used this one example of an extremely highly rated sealed sub that was clearly out performed in the Finnish sub tests (which are far more demanding than Craigs testing) by a ported sub that costs half the price. The JL Audio f113 is one of the most talked about and recommend subs I have seen. My sole point was to clearly show that the sealed is always best statement doesn't hold much water IMO. In another post recently I compared the SVS PB12-Plus ported sub with the JL Audio f112 sealed sub that were included in the Sound and Vision recent sub tests. ".....the JL f112 gets rave reviews here at at other forums. It also has 1500 watts and a 18.5 x 15 x 17.5 cabinet size (4856 cu in and 115 lbs). The SVS PB12-Plus has 525 watts and a 21 x 19 x 25 cabinet size (9975 cu in and 127 lbs). The f112 hit a very loud maximum of 118.2 dB's but at 63Hz. At 22.5 Hz and 10% distortion it only reached 95.4 Hz....." The SVS delivered its maximum output of 114.8dB's at 20Hz! From 20-80Hz it was between 108.7 and 114.8Hz at 10% distortion. Now that is real subwoofer performance!....." (note that this is the little brother of the f113 mentioned above) As I said before "These days there are outstanding subs from both designs." When I buy a sub I consider both ported and sealed subs. ;D |
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Animo
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Post by Animo on Dec 16, 2009 21:08:44 GMT -5
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Post by Animo on Dec 16, 2009 21:19:59 GMT -5
Chuckie, may I point you to a different Craig Sub listing??? www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136And realize these lists are roughly 3 years old. I'd like to find a current up to date list. But geeeeeee....look who's on top of this list!!! And my sub wasn't even around 3 years ago. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 21:35:11 GMT -5
Chuckienut and others I just spent the last two hours trying to find the post I saw recently from Emotiva on the performance on the ERS-212. It is no where to be found, or should I say that I was unable to find it again. I was either too high on my pain meds or the post was removed because they were not ready to release the info. My mind is so foggy after going through so many threads hunting for "the post", but I think it was from Big Dan -- but it may have been Lonnie's or Dann G's. Sorry for not copying it when I first saw it. Oh, well, lesson learned. That will teach me not to be so lazy. It never occurred to me that it might get deleted. Thirty lashes with a wet noddle for me. Don't beat your self Roadrunner. Late last night I ran into a link from well over a year ago that had a photo of the Emo sub control component with lots of cool menu pictures. When looking thru all the related posts and links I found a link I think was by Lonnie that did mention the 127dB figure. I think it might have been meant to be a max output figure only. I saw a test on one of the JL Audio subs that hit 118dB's but that was at a high 62dB's or so. At low frequencies it could only manage 95dB's at 22Hz and 10% distortion. I really don't care if a sub reaches that output level since it would not be practical for most of us mortals. As I mentioned before a simple 110dB's from 15/18-125Hz with +/- 2dB's at less than 5% distortion max (top rate performance) would get my jewels vibrating! ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 21:37:25 GMT -5
Thanks Animo! I had that old one on my bookmark. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 22:04:21 GMT -5
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Post by Animo on Dec 17, 2009 1:19:52 GMT -5
Check out the DIY threads at the eD forum. They have a version with my driver in a single 13Av.2 system, with the LT-1300 Amplifier. Pick up a pair of those and watch out!!! Are you gonna come to Brooklyn in January. You can travel in with jedinite24, he's out east also. |
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Post by tchaik on Dec 17, 2009 6:39:42 GMT -5
chuckienut,
the vision of your jewels vibrating was not one i wanted to entertain this early in the morning. i am going to have to be more careful when reading your entries and disengage my visual/mental perception before 9 in the morning from now on.
btw... i totally agree with your assessment on sealed vs ported. each has its inherent strengths and weaknesses. I've owned both and enjoyed each for what they could bring to the music/home theater experience. 'well designed and executed' is 'well designed and executed' no matter which you prefer.
years ago i remember listening to the infinity irs system ($60,000) in 1986. it used six 12-inch woofers in a sealed line array for each side. fabulous!!! i also listened to the wilson audio wamm system ($90,000) which employed two ported subs each with a magnat 24" woofer. fabulous!!! both had systems with extraordinary deep bass, well controlled, tight, and eminently musical. both took two contrasting approaches to a sonic challenge and each achieved an extraordinary level of sonic realism.
for me, i prefer a sealed woofer on the satellites down to the 40-50 hz range with a well designed ported sub that takes you into the sub-bass region of 18hz or lower. this gives me the best compromise for music and home theater. this is why my long term plan includes the sealed 'statements' with 2 svs pb-12plus sub woofers. don't know when that will happen though. for now, my subs have an f3 of about 22hz which still is very nice in my living room.
ah...one can only dream.......
tchaik................
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2009 8:02:12 GMT -5
Check out the DIY threads at the eD forum. They have a version with my driver in a single 13Av.2 system, with the LT-1300 Amplifier. Pick up a pair of those and watch out!!! Are you gonna come to Brooklyn in January. You can travel in with jedinite24, he's out east also. Yup ! Check your thread.  |
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Post by Animo on Dec 17, 2009 11:23:37 GMT -5
chuckienut, the vision of your jewels vibrating was not one i wanted to entertain this early in the morning. Vibrating Chuckie jewels??? WOOOOO HOOOOOO!!!!!    ;D Agreed.... on a need to know basis only, and I don't need to know either!! |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Dec 17, 2009 15:35:42 GMT -5
I still vote for sealed. Always have, always will......the quality of the bass from the sealed sub should be better. Wideawake, I have simply been responding to your comments and also comments before in this thread that seemed to voice the opinion that sealed subs were superior to ported subs. Yes, this was a general statement but it didn't seem to leave much room for doubt in the posters mind. It seemed to be a definite statement that sealed subs were in fact just better. I am giving a different opinion that this is no longer true as it might have been a number of years ago. I made the SVS comparison because it was exactly the same sub in both versions. The plugs when in does in effect make it effectively a sealed sub but I agree with you that it probably was not the best example to use. Since I already presumed some objection to this I included what I felt was a very well known sub and model, the JL Audio Fathom f113, which has received rave reviews all over the Internet. You said, "I don't know about the design considerations that went into building the F113." It is a sealed sub, it says so right on the test. Sorry about listing the wrong link above. "...Manufacturer specs: • Enclosure Type: Sealed..." www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/8152-jl-audio-fathom-f113.htmlThis is the very sub that is rated tops on the Official Craigsub rating list that is on the AVS forum and quoted all over the Internet including this forum. www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768150I used this one example of an extremely highly rated sealed sub that was clearly out performed in the Finnish sub tests (which are far more demanding than Craigs testing) by a ported sub that costs half the price. The JL Audio f113 is one of the most talked about and recommend subs I have seen. My sole point was to clearly show that the sealed is always best statement doesn't hold much water IMO. In another post recently I compared the SVS PB12-Plus ported sub with the JL Audio f112 sealed sub that were included in the Sound and Vision recent sub tests. ".....the JL f112 gets rave reviews here at at other forums. It also has 1500 watts and a 18.5 x 15 x 17.5 cabinet size (4856 cu in and 115 lbs). The SVS PB12-Plus has 525 watts and a 21 x 19 x 25 cabinet size (9975 cu in and 127 lbs). The f112 hit a very loud maximum of 118.2 dB's but at 63Hz. At 22.5 Hz and 10% distortion it only reached 95.4 Hz....." The SVS delivered its maximum output of 114.8dB's at 20Hz! From 20-80Hz it was between 108.7 and 114.8Hz at 10% distortion. Now that is real subwoofer performance!....." (note that this is the little brother of the f113 mentioned above) As I said before "These days there are outstanding subs from both designs." When I buy a sub I consider both ported and sealed subs. ;D "Rave reviews" many times don't hold water in the big picture of things. Like the F112. Its touted supposedly as a great sub on the "internet". Is it really? How much does it actually cost? For the money spent is it really a great subwoofer(And this of course can be applied to ANY overly expensive subwoofer)? What does $2000 or more REALLY GET YOU? Another thing to ponder here is WHY do they show max SPL #'s at such a high 10% distortion rate? Kind of silly..............I dunno kind of rambling here..... But in reality, with all things being generally equal in the quality and design of the sub, amp etc, a sealed sub system with have a smoother frequency response, with less distortion and artifacts(like port and mechanical noise) at higher levels in a smaller sized enclosure. Its just the nature of the design. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2009 18:55:32 GMT -5
But you end up giving up output. Also mechanical and port noise shouldn't be heard unless your really taxing your system and if thats the case, you should have had 2 to start with  I've yet to hear any type of other noise other than brain shaking bass in my ported system and i pound the crap out of it. |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Dec 17, 2009 19:53:23 GMT -5
But you end up giving up output. Also mechanical and port noise shouldn't be heard unless your really taxing your system and if thats the case, you should have had 2 to start with I've yet to hear any type of other noise other than brain shaking bass in my ported system and i pound the crap out of it. RIght, you are giving up some output. How much on average 3-6db? The port is literally the "poor man's" way to get some extra output. I'd rather just add another identical(more cone surface area)sealed driver to attain more SPL if needed. It may cost a bit more, but the added clean output of 2 sealed units(in the same space roughly as one "ported" assembly) is more than worth it. Doubling up your driver and amplification will net you another 6db of clean low frequency output. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2009 22:47:43 GMT -5
That is true, only if you need the space though. You could also add another ported sub and need 4 sealed subs to match the output. It is the poor mans way of doing things in some aspects but if you have the space, IMO they can't be beat. I should note I'm going to give the "Danely super spud 10" a try as well, as my 2 other sealed 18's that should be ready in about 2 weeks or so. It will be interesting to see what the horn sub will do.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 18:36:22 GMT -5
Animo: I think I am seriously considering the A5s 300. I was also looking at a B-Stock AV123 MFW, but they scare me with their business problems as of late. |
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Post by pczach on Dec 22, 2009 18:38:56 GMT -5
I've always preferred sealed subs for a couple reasons. Please try not to flame, these are personal opinions. These are not absolute truths. 1. I've always preferred the sound. To my ears, sealed subs sound tighter, and more controlled and musical. Sealed subs have always seemed to be more capable of subtle adjustments, where ported subs tend to be more monotone and less capable of these adjustments. 2. Room placement. I've never had a dedicated music/HT room, so the ability to easily position a sub where it fits and looks best in a room is much more likely. Also, my equipment is always close to a wall to maximize room space and to look good in the room. A non-ported sub has a much greater chance of performing well close to a wall or corner. Ported subs tend to need more space between the wall/corner and the sub. 3. This sounds like #1, but I'm listing it seperately. I've always felt that it was much easier to find the optimum crossover frequency with a sealed sub. In particular I think you can use a higher crossover setting and still get a cleaner transition from speaker bass to sub bass. I know this is subjective and it is not as relevant with high-end quality subs. Ported has always had a different sounding bass than the bass produced by full-range speakers. When talking about speakers, most people describe the bass coming from their full range speakers as tight, and getting kicked in the chest. I feel MOST ported subs can't duplicate that sound. The very good ones can. That's why most of us think sealed are more musical. If you want a ported sub, you better get a very good one. 4. Size. Smaller subs are much easier to blend into a room. The WAF is much higher, and life as we know it won't end because of the large refrigerator in the middle of the room. This is very subjective, so do whatever sounds good to you. Even with my car audio system I preferred a sealed Isobaric sub. Smaller enclosure, tighter sound, less output. Bottom line here is that to my ears, ported subs are best for HT when reaching maximum depth and output are required , and sealed subs are better for music when subtlety and accuracy are at a premium. |
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Post by flamingeye on Dec 22, 2009 21:42:44 GMT -5
I always thought sealed was better that`s why my DIY sub is sealed well that and it was easier to make especially back in the early 80`s ,but I still thought sealed was better for music , but now with my mfw-15 which is a ported sub I changed my mined and now think it doesn`t really mater because my LP`s have never sounded so good the mfw-15 brings out every bass note no mater how delicate or slight the bass tone is it bring it to me like it was suppose to be heard my vinyl collection sounds more realistic and when paired with my DIY 15" sealed it`s so life like it`s really amazing how the two work together anyway just using the mfw-15 with music and finding how musical it was just squashed that idea that sealed is better well for me anyways
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 0:27:15 GMT -5
I used to think sealed was better also. I really love my ported monsters and I have a new horn sub on the way. I really do miss my servo 15's but at the end of the day, my choice of going DIY has led me to places a commerical sub will never go. Most people just don't have room for a big coffin in their HT room. I think thats where subs like the mwf-15 come in, really good output for the size of the sucker, great for music and movies. You don't really have to give up anything. I like all the types so much I'm gonna have 2 sealed, 2 ported and 2 horns. Getting them to play nice with eachother may be a different story but thats the fun in this hobby.
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Post by bfisher on Dec 23, 2009 10:31:28 GMT -5
Like many here, assumed sealed would be better musically and ported would be better for movies. I now own a ported Elemental A5-350 and love it. I have stated before that it sounds awesome for music but put an asterisk on it that it was always for loud music (rock, classic rock, pop, etc). Usually the "sealed sub fans" would comment about "yeah, but how about for Miles Davis, etc"...
So this weekend I put in some of my jazz and blues collection and spent a lot of time listening. Holy #@$% it sounds good. Miles Davis, Count Basie and Duke Ellington, Art Blakey, Clifford Brown, Coleman Hawkins... I could go on. Awesome.
I don't think you can go wrong with any of the higher end subs now. Crystal clear, deep... I don't know all the adjectives but my personal opinion was my subs worked awesome with this music.
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Post by jmilton on Dec 23, 2009 10:35:04 GMT -5
I, for one, am glad to "hear" that ported designs are not all crummy. There are many well designed ported subs out there that sound great, but people are afraid to be labeled a heretic for acknowledging them. |
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;D
