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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 2, 2010 23:24:21 GMT -5
Anyone have experience with a direct comparison with Emo 6.3 or 8.3 and any B&W (preferably 805's)? I am a long time B&W fan, but my beloved P5's have to go. They are skinny towers that aren't very stable if bumped, and my 6 month old twins will be trying to push them over soon, I am sure. So finally I have an excuse to upgrade! Problem is, the only B&W tower that would be safe for the girls is probably the 802 and up, and those are way out of my price range. So that pretty much leaves just the 805's as the only speaker that I can make work. I came to the Emotiva site to look at amps and started looking at the speakers which got me intrigued. the 6.3 being a large "bookshelf" for lack of a better term, or the 8.3 with it's 12"+ width and near 80 pound weight would make it hard to tip over. problem is, I've been a B&W nut for over a decade, and anytime I hear other speakers (even very expensive ones) I feel like i am missing something. I am just so used to that tone in the mid-ranges that the B&W's make. The Emo's are extra alluring since to upgrade all 5 speakers to a matching set would be a heck of a lot cheaper than updating all my speakers to matching 800 series B&W's. Heck I can probably get a pair of 8.3's, 1 6.3, 4 ERD's and enough amp to drive them all, for less than the price of the 5 B&W's I may just buy both and get rid of which ever one I don't like, but I'd like to avoid that if at all possible. So if anyone has any direct comparison experience it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
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Post by LuisV on Jan 3, 2010 10:37:59 GMT -5
I've owned my 804 speakers for approx 14 years now and they have survived without issues... I have 2 kids and taught them boundaries... I can still remember telling them that they need to be careful with the big boxes as I didn't them to fall on them. BTW Barney sounds just as bad in surround sound. I also have the B&W HTM center and it is just as old as the my 804 speakers. During the Emo holiday sale I purchased the ERD-1 surrounds to test / possibly replace an older set of Definitive Technologies BP2X speakers and much to my surprise the smaller ERD-1s blew the Def Techs away in sound quality. After a few movies that weekend, I boxed up the Def Techs and sold them. As you can guess, most of my HT system is approx 14 years old and I'm looking into replacing some of the components... amps are next in line as I have an XPA-2 on the way. Look out for a forum post in the user amp review section shortly. When the ERM-1 were on closeout sale, I picked up a pair as I needed speakers for my bedroom music only system. Once they arrived I did a comparison of my B&W 804 speakers and the Emo ERM-1 speakers. The ERM-1 are no longer sold by Emotiva. They are slightly smaller than the current 6.2 as they have 5 1/2" drivers instead of 6". Based on my listening experience with the Emos vs B&Ws I kept the Emos and placed them in my bedroom. To be honest, the ERM-1 speakers give me 85 - 90% of the B&Ws sound quality with the B&Ws having more bass, a wider sound stage and smoother vocals and midrange. I believe the 804 were in the $1400 range for the pair and when I purchased the ERM-1s I believe they were $300 for the pair. Do the B&Ws sound $1100 better? I don't think so... do they sound better? In a single word yes... but I don't think they sound that much better to warrant the price difference. You're opinion and taste may vary, but that's my thoughts after being a B&W owner for 14 years. Probably a better comparison would be to test the 6.2s against the 805; however, taking bass out of the equation, and at this point of time I couldn't warrant the added expense of the B&Ws for my bedroom system. Would I have preferred to go out and pick up the new 805s? Sure... but I can't justify the extra cash... daughter's going into highschool next year, so college is around the corner. The B&Ws are currently in my living room / HT system. Here's my post on the ERM-1 speakers: emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=erm1&action=display&thread=5689Take a look into Sound Anchors or if you are handy make your own. I've had sound anchors mounted to my 804 speaker since I bought them. They use the threaded inserts where carpet spikes are usually threaded into to mount to the speaker. If I remember correctly they weight approx 10lbs each, so they help make a lighter tower more stable and yes... they work very well. www.soundanchors.com/Sorry to be a little long winded... but I wanted to give you some history. What is it that you are trying to do? Replace your 805s? Just replace the P5's?
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 3, 2010 20:51:36 GMT -5
luisevaz
Thanks for the info.
I think my post was a bit unclear and rambling, so let me restate.
My current setup consists of all B&W speakers, P5 for mains, and LCR6 series 2 for center and 601 series 1 for surrounds. Sub is an SVS PB 2-12+
The P5's are very skinny and unstable, so those are the main instigation for the change. I would like to use this opportunity to change all the speakers to a better timber matching set, as I can tell the difference in all 3 sets of speakers, and it's bugged me for the longest time.
So the best B&W upgrade option I can afford would be 805's for mains, HTM1 (original version) center and SCM (or another set of 805's) surrounds.
I am hesitant about this because of the small size of the 805's, being as I am so used to full size speakers, and when I listen to music I like to keep it to just the 2 channel without the sub, and hope to keep all the dynamics there. I am concerned that the 805 won't have enough oomph for that, especially in my rather large and poorly shaped great room where the theater lives.
I've always wanted to move up the the 800 series, but I mainly want the FST mid, which the 805 lacks. If I could find a set of original 804 or 803's that I could afford, I would just go with them and some modified Sound Anchors to really weigh them down. But those are hard or impossible to find for anything near I can afford. Right now I can't find any original 804's, there is a set of new 804s 's for $3k on ebay, but that's pretty rich for my blood, especially when you add the $2k for the matching HTM3. But man would it be great! But I'm rambling again.
Anyway, I was hoping that the 6.2 would be a fairly full range "bookshelf" or the 8.3 would be a very stable floor stander that the girls couldn't push over. But my biggest hesitation isn't that the Emo's aren't very good speakers, but that they wouldn't overcome my love of that B&W mid. And based on your remarks that fear is well founded. However your remarks are based on an 804, which is a pretty high end speaker, but it is the "old" 800. I have a feeling the new Nautilus 800's would have even more of that "sound" I am looking for, thus making the Emo's even less of what I want.
I am still concerned about the "small" 805 not being enough though.
Oh, well, I might just order the 8.3's and if they best my P5's, then go all Emo and move on. I'd just hate to have that nagging feeling that maybe the 805's would have been better.....
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Post by LuisV on Jan 3, 2010 21:59:12 GMT -5
Ah... that changes things. The 805 speakers would lack in the lower end; however, they are no slouch in the mids and highs. I haven't listened to the 805 in years and obviously went with the 804 as they had a better bottom end. As I said above, the small Emos I have sound fantastic; however, the 804's have their strengths. Personally I didn't want to go to my local dealer to listen to the 805's for the bedroom as I didn't want to spend that much money right now. I took the Emo plunge based on what I read in the lounge as well as other forums and I have no regrets.
It's a touch call... you can always pick up the Emos and try them for yourself. You have 30 days to return them if their sound isn't for you.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 3, 2010 22:16:47 GMT -5
It's a touch call... you can always pick up the Emos and try them for yourself. You have 30 days to return them if their sound isn't for you. I'm starting to think that's what I will do. Just order a pair of 8.3, if I really like them, just order the rest of the Emo speakers and call it a day. If I like them but still have some reservation I might pick up a pair of 805's to compare them against. Worst case I can just re-sell the B&W's if I decide to go with the Emo's. Man I'm really mad I didn't just order everything last week when it was on sale I emailed sales to see of they have any B-stock, hopefully.
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Post by SeattleHTGuy on Jan 4, 2010 1:36:07 GMT -5
I own 805s (The originals) and 803S's. I don't know the Emotiva's but can give you a fairly good feeling on the difference between the big 803S's and the 5s. The 803S's do, indeed go deeper than the little guys. They also have the FST's which the 5s lack. If you play very low mids to fairly deep bass, you can indeed feel/hear the difference between the two... Also the 3S's will simply play louder and are a bit more efficient....
Having said that, the 805's are no simple bookshelf. The long throw Kevlar Bass/Mid Driver can deliver incredible accurate mids and pretty big bass as well. They trick my EQ program to thinking they play to 40Hz, something far larger speakers I have tried fail to do. They do better with more power; not less and they retain all of the heralded classic Nautilus series capabilities with mid to treble clarity. I love them and coupled with a solid musical and fast sub, your system will rock.
I am a huge fan of the Nautilus look and build quality. Especially in light Cherry. If you are not going to stick these puppies out to be admired though, I would argue just as strong against them. There is no doubt in my mind you are paying through the nose for B&W pedigree and cabinet making skills. You may also note the dang Brits fear their wood working skills so much, they out source this to Denmark. People on this site rave about the quality for buck equation Emotiva offers and even if you just troll for anti Emotiva comments elsewhere there are few things to find. So, I'm guessing the Emotiva's sound very good.
I blather on. Put bluntly the 805s are fantastic and far more than "just a cute pait of bookshelfs" in every aspect. But.... You pay for the name and veneers, you pay for the distribution system, you pay for really outstanding customer service, and you probably would get a better deal with the Emotiva's, especially if you don't think your fronts will be "out and proud".
Oh, one other thing. Nautilus series speakers are really challenging to place correctly. They claim wide disbursement of highs; I think..... not so much. When you get it right though... the skies open up and it's wonderful.
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Post by LuisV on Jan 4, 2010 6:29:19 GMT -5
Exactly what I remembered of the 805 speakers... wonderful sound, yet the 804 had a fuller / deeper sound. If I remember correctly the 803's had larger drivers than my 804's and were therefore slightly more expensive. Due to the extra money involved, the choice is a tough one and one that you need to justify. I can't speak for your budget, but for me right now... the Emo's provide a great bang for the buck and sound too good for their price point. Your ears might tell you differently... but where my budget stands today, I'm more than satisfied with my Emo purchases...
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Post by audiodragon on Jan 4, 2010 12:53:31 GMT -5
shawmcbigdis,
Just to throw this in in case you may not be aware, the new B&W 68x series and new CMx series utilize the FST midrange driver in the floorstanders (683, CM7, CM9). A couple years ago I auditioned a lot of gear and fell in love with the sound of the CM7s. I actually went in to purchase the CM7 CMC and surrounds, and the dealer had just gotten the 683s. I ended up with the 683s and HTM61 (which also has a FST and is a MTW configuration). I thought they had a better sound stage and were a bit brighter without being as bright as the 703. Now the CM9 (12" wide with the base) is out and gets a lot of praise, and there is a matching CMC-2. If you haven't had the oppertunity yet, they are worth a listen.
Daniel
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 4, 2010 13:59:39 GMT -5
SeattleHTGuy thanks for the great info.
To complicate things more I've recently found some B&W 703's on eBay, and have my eye on some hopefully decent priced 804's.
I've never heard the 703, but I've lusted after the CDM9NT's since they came out, and auditioned them at home for a couple days a few years back and they were awesome.
O f course it will be more money for the B&W's, but it might be worth it.
Realistically I should jsut order the Emo's and be done with it. To go the cheapest rout with the 703 would be about $1k more than the EMo's (considering all 5 speakers), and to go with the 804's would be over $2k more. That's a lot of money, and hard to justify, except for the fact that I love the B&W's.
I hate decisions like this. It's fun, but I hate second guessing myself all the time.
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Post by Mr. Ben on Jan 4, 2010 14:23:54 GMT -5
SeattleHTGuy thanks for the great info. To complicate things more I've recently found some B&W 703's on eBay, and have my eye on some hopefully decent priced 804's. I've never heard the 703, but I've lusted after the CDM9NT's since they came out, and auditioned them at home for a couple days a few years back and they were awesome. O f course it will be more money for the B&W's, but it might be worth it. Realistically I should jsut order the Emo's and be done with it. To go the cheapest rout with the 703 would be about $1k more than the EMo's (considering all 5 speakers), and to go with the 804's would be over $2k more. That's a lot of money, and hard to justify, except for the fact that I love the B&W's. I hate decisions like this. It's fun, but I hate second guessing myself all the time. The 703 is virtually identical to the CDM9NT it replaced, so if you liked the CDM9NT you'll like the 703. I would suggest sticking with B&W since you already know that you like the sound of the brand.
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Post by audiodragon on Jan 4, 2010 14:29:23 GMT -5
I have not heard the 800 series, but I auditioned the 703, CM7, and 683, in an abc setup. My impressions were the 703s had a fantastic sound stage but were bright, like almost Klipsh bright. To my ears they were harsh and I knew I would get fatigue listening to them. They were much brighter than the CM7 and 683. You can see from my sig I ended up with the 683, and believe it or not, price was not a consideration between these three, I simply liked the 683 the best. The 703 is one of those speakers that you need to listen to for yourself and decide. Kind of like I would tell people shopping for Klipsh to listen first to be sure they like the horn driver sound.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 4, 2010 16:10:58 GMT -5
thanks for all the great info guys.
Does anyone know if the 700 series is as picky with placement as the 800 series? The P5's are picky, and from what I've heard it seems the 800's are even more so, and I would assume that the 700's would be close to the 800's in that respect, since they are nearly identical except for some material differences in the cab and electronics.
I already have lots of problems with the P5's in my room. I'm sure Audyssey will help with some of this, but if it's down to the speakers have a sweat spot, then I don't think any kind of room correction is going to fix it.
On the rare occasion I get to sit a critically listen to 2 channel (or even SACD/DVDA) music, I won't care about the picky placement, I will just sit in the sweat spot and enjoy. But really 95% of the time it is for home theater, and a wide sound stage with an almost as wide sweat spot is really more important.
Man I am so fickle! An hour ago I was almost certain I was going to go B&W. Now I'm leaning back towards the Emo.
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Post by Mr. Ben on Jan 4, 2010 16:17:42 GMT -5
Does anyone know if the 700 series is as picky with placement as the 800 series? The P5's are picky, and from what I've heard it seems the 800's are even more so, and I would assume that the 700's would be close to the 800's in that respect, since they are nearly identical except for some material differences in the cab and electronics. I've had no problem with the placement of my CDM 7NT's, which are nearly identical to the 704. I put them where they looked good, and they sound great. I'm always moving the 803's around, and I still feel like they're not in their optimal positions.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 4, 2010 18:44:01 GMT -5
I've had no problem with the placement of my CDM 7NT's, which are nearly identical to the 704. I put them where they looked good, and they sound great. I'm always moving the 803's around, and I still feel like they're not in their optimal positions. That's good to know. I would think that since they are so similar they would have the same problem. Nice to know they aren't as picky. The auction ends on those 703's in 2 days, hopefully the price doesn't get out of line. On another note Mr. Ben, how large is your room, and what are your thoughts on the CNT and SNT speakers? I have a large room, and like my movies to be pretty loud. The CMD/700 series center and surrounds seem rather small, especially the center compared to the 703. The SNT is basically a 1NT in a squished box (just like the 800 SCM and 805), I doubt it would have any problems as a surround. However there is a set of DS7 mono/di-poles on eBay right now also. The thing I don't get about B&W's bi-poles (except the very expensive DS8) is they don't have di-pole tweets, just mids. So in di-pole mode they only go to like 10k Hrz or something like that. Obviously higher freqs are easier to localize, which blows the point of a di-poles, but I thought that's what the out of phase bit took care of. I would think that there is a lot of info above 10k that you'd be missing out on. Anyone have experience, or opinions on these or similar dipoles?
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Post by SticknStones on Jan 4, 2010 18:47:30 GMT -5
Quite a few B&W owners and I have had my B&W 804N for about 6 years and they just keep getting better as I add the xpa, erc, usp and such.
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Post by Mr. Ben on Jan 4, 2010 21:31:53 GMT -5
On another note Mr. Ben, how large is your room, and what are your thoughts on the CNT and SNT speakers? I have a large room, and like my movies to be pretty loud. The CMD/700 series center and surrounds seem rather small, especially the center compared to the 703. The SNT is basically a 1NT in a squished box (just like the 800 SCM and 805), I doubt it would have any problems as a surround. My living room is something like 12' by 17'-20'. Before the B&W's, I had Klipsch KLF speakers, which are large, dynamic, and have wide dispersion surrounds. The SNT, as you said, is basically a flat bookshelf speaker. To be honest, the Klipsch speakers did a better job with movies. They got a lot louder without and strain, and the surrounds did a good job of providing ambiance (rain, crowds, crickets, etc). The B&W's don't fill the room in the same way, and the surround speakers are too easy to locate. But my living room is more for multi-channel music than for movies, and for this, the rears are perfect, and the B&W's are significantly better than the Klipsch. Don't get me wrong, the B&W's do a fine job on movies (better than any of my friends setups), but their real strength is music.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 5, 2010 2:18:55 GMT -5
Mr. Ben, That's what I figured. For 5 channel music I bet they are amazing. Heck even my mix-match B&W setup with 601 rears is pretty amazing for 5 channel music. On movies they are missing something, way to localized for the surrounds. I have friends with Polk and Klipsch setups that give a more enveloping movie experience, but none of them can touch me on 2 or 5 channel music.
How does that CNT center hold up, especially in movies?
sticknstones, I noticed in your sig you have the Emo ERD's? I assume the 804N's are you mains and the ERD's are your surrounds? How does that work, is the tonal difference noticeable or do they match fairly well? I would imagine that the Nautilus aluminum tweet and the silk tweet in the Emo's would be vastly different, but perhaps in true dipole it is so difused it doesn't matter? I've never had dipoles so I don't really know how they sound.
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Post by SticknStones on Jan 5, 2010 5:28:09 GMT -5
Mr. Ben, That's what I figured. For 5 channel music I bet they are amazing. Heck even my mix-match B&W setup with 601 rears is pretty amazing for 5 channel music. On movies they are missing something, way to localized for the surrounds. I have friends with Polk and Klipsch setups that give a more enveloping movie experience, but none of them can touch me on 2 or 5 channel music. How does that CNT center hold up, especially in movies? sticknstones, I noticed in your sig you have the Emo ERD's? I assume the 804N's are you mains and the ERD's are your surrounds? How does that work, is the tonal difference noticeable or do they match fairly well? I would imagine that the Nautilus aluminum tweet and the silk tweet in the Emo's would be vastly different, but perhaps in true dipole it is so difused it doesn't matter? I've never had dipoles so I don't really know how they sound. I listen to music in 2 channel and movies with the wife are pretty much light weight fare so I have not seen Iron Man, District 9 or any of the other cool flicks that show off the home theatre. I also have not ventured into blu-ray but it is on the radar. I am not a really good candidate to evaluate 5.1 at this time. I bought the ERD a couple of weeks ago and still need some time with them.
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Post by Mr. Ben on Jan 5, 2010 9:30:30 GMT -5
How does that CNT center hold up, especially in movies? It works just great with both movies and music. No problem keeping up with the demands needed on a center channel.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 5, 2010 18:26:59 GMT -5
How does that CNT center hold up, especially in movies? It works just great with both movies and music. No problem keeping up with the demands needed on a center channel. That's good to know. I was worried I'd need to step up to the HTM1 to get a center good enough for the 703's. I mean I'm sure it would be an option ;D, but not a necessity. So I ordered a pair of 8.3's, a 6.3 and ERD's today. I'm fairly certain they will best my P5's is most aspects. Hopefully I win the auction on those 703's so I have some real competition to put them up against. I went ahead and ordered all 5 Emo's because my pocketbook really wants them to win, and if I do decide to go with them, I'll be all set and won't have to wait for the rest of my speakers to show up. However I won't be upset if I decide to go with the B&W's, I have always wanted a gorgeous FST with a Nautilus tweeter above it. I'll keep everyone up to date on how the tests go.
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