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Post by indyscammer on Jan 30, 2010 11:32:31 GMT -5
On the EQ front, I was fiddling (it never stops!!!!) last night and as I was testing levels I noticed the "tone" from the different speakers was different, I looked at the EQ curves and some were really extreme - I set them all to flat and re-listed and the match was MUCH better. So I think YPAO may be in the same boat, i.e. more trouble than benefit as far as the PEQ goes. Just to put in mu 2 cents.....when my UPA-7 arrived I tested it in my neighbors theater...he has the Yamaha RX-Z11 Flagship. We hated the UPA-7 (not liking the Yamaha also btw).....so he dug out his old B&K Ref. 20 (which is now my pre-pro until UMC). MUCH better....UPA-& now GOOD! Wha? Determined we had a processing problem...the B&K has no real EQ abilities. Dug into the Yammy set up screen to look at the EQ curves....OMG....all low freq. on towers (AR 26's) cut...and pretty heavy handed high end attenuation also. To make matters worse the fronts were ALL heavily boosted (+8-10 dB) creating real distortion at loud volume. He is running dual subs. Long story short we killed the EQ...went to flat and voila....good sound back....very dynamic and no more distortion at load volume. In that config....the UPA and the RX-Z11 amps were very similar. He had only ran the single point EQ setup not the 3mic by 6 location full charaterization that should be done. We will try that as time permits but this lesson says the quick set up on the Yamaha is not a good idea. To tie this back to the thread.....I think you need to be very careful how the setup is when doing any A/B comparisons...it can really skew your results. |
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 30, 2010 20:22:14 GMT -5
So I turned off the boundary switch on the 6.3, and I set all the mid and tweeter switches to +2, with the tweeter extension to high. Reran Audysesey, and it set the 6.3 crossover at 120Hz. It just won't go lower than that. Going to watch Indiana Jones tonight and see what I think. There really isn't a way I will keep these now, the B&W's have just spoiled me, but I am going to give them a fair shake. There is something very odd there I think (the room maybe?) YPAO on my Yamaha sets cross-over at 100Hz - and that is with 5 x ERD-1s in the mix, two of which are powered by "crappy" 50w receiver outputs. So having your fronts set at 120Hz by audyssey just looks odd, others have reported their 6.3(s) get crossed at 60Hz by Audyssey. What happens if you manually set them to 60? And with that fixed, play with the switch combinations. Wouldn't it be a shame to send them back if there is something you can do to get them "more B&W"/to your taste? Audyssey is rather advanced, it sets each channel group separately as well as sets distance, delays, and EQ's for each individual channel group. So it sets front L/R, Center. Front Wides, front Heights, side, surrounds, rear surrounds, and subwoofer; all separately. You are not supposed to tweak the settings after running it. As a matter of fact they warn against lowering the crossover points after running it, as it will not have the EQ right to compensate for the lower setting. It sets every other speaker at pretty much exactly where you would think they should be. The 804's and HTM it does at 40, the 8.3's at 50, the ERD's at 90-100. The only one weird is the 6.3. I am fully prepared to admit that it is a room problem with that speaker. I haven't put the HTM up on the shelf above the TV, maybe it would have a messed up response up there as well? But honestly there is nothing that will make me keep these. They are darn good speakers for the money, I'm just willing to spend more money, and buying used allows me to get a lot more speaker for not much more money. Well OK, the B&W's are a lot more money even used, but they are a heck of a lot more speaker. They have a clarity and precision that the Emo's just can't match, even in stereo, regardless of the center channel performance. But speaker of the center channel, regardless of it's crossover point, it just doesn't match the 8.3's close enough for me. If I had never heard the 804/HTM3 combo, maybe they would, but now that I've heard nearly perfectly matched speakers for the front three, that is what I am going to require. I am going to send the Emo's back this week. Then I have a business trip to Orlando. When I get back I will pick up a pair of used Gallo 3.1's and see how they compare the the B&W's, and what the wife thinks of them. I have high hopes for them based on reviews, but we'll see. At the very least I be tthe extremely wide tweeter dispersion will help a lot with my room problems. |
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Feb 3, 2010 13:50:23 GMT -5
So I sent the Emo's back yesterday, man was that expensive, and I got a discount. It would be nice if Emo included return shipping labels with their gear, and just reduced your refund by the amount of the shipping, since it cost me 3 times what it costs Emo to ship them to me.
Anyway, back to the speakers. So I did one last session this past weekend with both speakers. I had a friend come over and we went through about 3 hours of playing around with the Emo's and the B&W's.
First thing I did was blind A / B the speakers for him. He chose the material. Audyssey was configured for the Emo's, when I hooked up the B&W's I disabled the Audyssey EQ, and changed the crossover setting to match the B&W's. He instantly chose the B&W's as the better speaker. This isn't' really surprising, given the price differential, but it was nice to see that I wasn't crazy thinking the B&W's were better. He thought both sets sounded good but the B&W's were clearly superior, in detail and soundstage.
So with that out of the way we started to play around some more. We figured we would do a direct apples to apples comparison, with Audyssey turned off completely on both speakers. At first we thought the Emo's sounded better with it off, then we realized, they were just more "live" in certain frequencies,a nd the overall sound actually was not better. The tonal mismatch between the 8.3's and 6.3 was even more pronounced with Audyssey off. A great test track for this is Metallica's Black Album DVD-A, opening track Enter Sandman. The guitar solo pans back and forth across the front stage, then goes behind you. It's perfect for pointing out any mismatch in speakers. With Audyssey enabled on the Eo's it was a close match, but you could tell the difference if you were paying close attention, with Audyssey off it was fairly obvious. With the B&W's there actually was a slight miss match noticeable, about the same as with the Emo's with Audyssey correction. I have yet to run that track on the B&W's with Audyssey calibrated for them, maybe this weekend. Based on my previous test with the B&W's the front soundstage is nearly erfect after Audyssey calibration, so I would expect this track to pass with flying colors.
All in all, the B&W's always came out on top. Neither one of us could definitively say the B&W's were actually worth the price increase, but it is an increase I am willing to accept, so that's all that matters.
One interesting aside. My wife was in the room while we were messing around, and at one point she asked which speakers were on because she realyl liked them. It was the B&W's ;D
Now the last time she had sat and listened to the B&W's they were Audyssey calibrated, this time the EQ was off. Could it be that there is something about the EQ she doens't like, or is it she is just getting used to the B&W's? I hope it's the latter, but I haven't re-run Audyssey yet to find out. I will probably still try and pick up a set of Gallo 3.1's to compare against the B&W's. They get amazing reviews, and will end up being cheaper than the B&W's, so that would be nice.
All in all I was still impressed with the Emo's and think they are a great speaker for the price. I was just willing to spend more to get more. Also even though I have complained about the center channel miss match, it is not extreme, and most people would probably be OK with it. Though I still hope that Emo does make a center speaker that more better matches the 8.3, even if it's just a 2 way. Actually wasn't the ERM-1 basically just the top section of hte 8.3? Why did they stop selling that unit? Has anyone tried the 3 together? I am considering picking up a pair of 6.2's for the bedroom, since my wife liked the Emo's so much.
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Post by southpaw on Feb 3, 2010 22:22:37 GMT -5
Took the plunge and bought a pair of CM9's and a CMC2 center today. About to hook them up and do some A/B testing.
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Post by bigred7078 on Feb 3, 2010 22:48:56 GMT -5
Took the plunge and bought a pair of CM9's and a CMC2 center today. About to hook them up and do some A/B testing. Nice speakers  |
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Post by devani on Feb 4, 2010 10:22:05 GMT -5
^ yea that....also would love to hear from the A/B testing
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Feb 4, 2010 13:10:46 GMT -5
Took the plunge and bought a pair of CM9's and a CMC2 center today. About to hook them up and do some A/B testing. southpaw, Keep us updated on how this goes. I am very interested to get your take on them. The CM9 is about as close to an 804 as you can get (well the 703 was probably closer). I'm very interested to see your thought on the CMC2 center and how it mates with the CM9. Like I've said over and over in this thread, that is the most amazing thing with the 804 and HTM3. Along those lines, what is your thought on the 8.3 6.3 combo? Do you hear any differences in the 2 speakers? |
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Post by southpaw on Feb 4, 2010 16:51:57 GMT -5
Well, after doing some testing on a variety of material, I'd love to sit here and say that upgrading to the CM9's was worth every penny; that they reign supreme over the Emo's. I can't. The 8.3's are great speakers. After flipping back and forth all day, I picked up some subtle differences and my soundstage (with MCACC EQ turned off) has improved and feels fuller but not by much.
The CMC2 is an excellent center speaker. The biggest difference in my front soundstage is coming from the center. Like shawmcbigdis, I agree that the 6.3 is a weak link in 8.3 L, 6.3 C, 8.3 R setup. It's certainly better than average but Emo definitely needs to come out with an 8.3 center that can better complement it's excellent towers.
I've tested out a dialogue driven movie (Paris, Texas Criterion Blu-ray), an action-oriented movie with low end rumbles and fast cars (Fast & Furious Blu-ray), a high production network TV show in Dolby Digital (Lost season 6 premiere) and some music (Dire Straits Brothers in Arms SACD, Elton John Goodbye Yellow Brick Road SACD hybrid). I also wrapped up testing with The Fifth Element Blu-ray. If there was one scene that brought out the differences between these two setups, it was the sequence about an hour in where the blue girl starts belting out opera in the huge theater as Bruce Willis watches on. Then the opera slowly transitions to pop and choreographed with Milla's fight scene. It's great to watch and to listen to. Let me just tell you, I've never had shivers like I did listening to that segment. The high notes that the singer pulls off sounded so magical. Then you have the slow transition to some instrumental work and then a pseudo-classic rock/pop riff takes off to coincide with the action on the screen. Love it.
I also want to note how well my ERD's blended on the 5.1 music. There was a slight tonal difference from front to back as if the volume level on the ERD's needed to be turned up. When I run the EQ calibration, I'll have to see how this is handled. Nothing to complain about when it comes to movies though. The ERD's stood their ground nicely.
My Emo's are already sold or I would seriously think about taking back the B&W's. Their performance is a notch below the CM9's and CMC2 center especially. But at just over half the cost, they are a great bargain.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Feb 4, 2010 18:51:23 GMT -5
Well, after doing some testing on a variety of material, I'd love to sit here and say that upgrading to the CM9's was worth every penny; that they reign supreme over the Emo's. I can't. The 8.3's are great speakers. After flipping back and forth all day, I picked up some subtle differences and my soundstage (with MCACC EQ turned off) has improved and feels fuller but not by much. The CMC2 is an excellent center speaker. The biggest difference in my front soundstage is coming from the center. Like shawmcbigdis, I agree that the 6.3 is a weak link in 8.3 L, 6.3 C, 8.3 R setup. It's certainly better than average but Emo definitely needs to come out with an 8.3 center that can better complement it's excellent towers. I've tested out a dialogue driven movie (Paris, Texas Criterion Blu-ray), an action-oriented movie with low end rumbles and fast cars (Fast & Furious Blu-ray), a high production network TV show in Dolby Digital (Lost season 6 premiere) and some music (Dire Straits Brothers in Arms SACD, Elton John Goodbye Yellow Brick Road SACD hybrid). I also wrapped up testing with The Fifth Element Blu-ray. If there was one scene that brought out the differences between these two setups, it was the sequence about an hour in where the blue girl starts belting out opera in the huge theater as Bruce Willis watches on. Then the opera slowly transitions to pop and choreographed with Milla's fight scene. It's great to watch and to listen to. Let me just tell you, I've never had shivers like I did listening to that segment. The high notes that the singer pulls off sounded so magical. Then you have the slow transition to some instrumental work and then a pseudo-classic rock/pop riff takes off to coincide with the action on the screen. Love it. I also want to note how well my ERD's blended on the 5.1 music. There was a slight tonal difference from front to back as if the volume level on the ERD's needed to be turned up. When I run the EQ calibration, I'll have to see how this is handled. Nothing to complain about when it comes to movies though. The ERD's stood their ground nicely. My Emo's are already sold or I would seriously think about taking back the B&W's. Their performance is a notch below the CM9's and CMC2 center especially. But at just over half the cost, they are a great bargain. That's pretty much how I felt. The only reason I didn't keep the Emo's was that weak center, and for the moments like you described in Fifth Element when if gives you shivers. Moments like that are where you usually have to man up and pay the bill on the serious diminishing returns of high end audio, but if you are willing to foot the bill it's worth it. |
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