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Post by SeattleHTGuy on Jan 14, 2010 18:18:07 GMT -5
The 804s, from my listening and reviewing are pretty light on Bass. Some people argue the 805's (which I also own) do nearly as well as the 804s with a solid Sub; wait a sec ---- don't you just happen to own a good sub? I have the 803S's and they produce noticably more and deeper bass than the 804's. Having said all that, you will love the HTM3S and 804's together. If you enjoy movies, you clearly spent money where it will matter. The center in particular will surely impress. Damn, I should never call anyone "Shirley". ;D
I too have little kids (4 and 7) and those speakers will be with you longer than your kids; so get ready to have fun and enjoy many years of sonic pleasure...
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 14, 2010 19:25:55 GMT -5
Definitely keep us posted and thanks for taking the time to do this. If you don't mind.. what's your impression on cost vs sound? So far, are the B&Ws worth the added expense? Curious as to how you view it as it's a tough call for me. I love my B&Ws, but I dunno if the sound difference warrants the price difference. Tough call... definitely a tough call... It's a very tough call. I know if all I did was listen to music, and a lot of it, the B&W's would be worth it, at least at the price I paid, at full price I'm not so sure; at least at my income level. For home theater it's a much harder question. Absolute quality doesn't matter as much, as long as they are clean and dynamic, with fairly flat response curves. And especially if they are all timber matched. If I stick with the B&W's the surrounds aren't going to be perfectly timber matched to the front, I just can't afford the 800 surrounds of any kind, so I will go with DS7's. SO the Emo's have the bonus in my case of having perfectly matched tweets in every location.
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Post by LuisV on Jan 14, 2010 20:37:34 GMT -5
That's how I look at it as I'm 70 HT / 30 music these days. Musicality is key, but proper voicing during movies is my priority these days. I don't have any immediate intentions on parting with my 804's , but they are 14 years old and the last time I checked, B&W was either running low or had already run out of certain replacement parts. My fear is driver failure, surround separation, etc. So yes, the thought of selling them for something newer has crossed my mind, but damn do they sound good. My tube gear makes them sound their best, but that gear is now in my bedroom driving the ERM-1's. The 804's are in great shape and they still bring a smile to my face when I get the chance to sit down for a listen with a good glass of wine....
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 15, 2010 11:39:09 GMT -5
Excuse the poor pic qaulity again, just wanted to give you guys a look at the tough decision I have to make ;D
So I did some more tweaking of the surrounds last night, and got them sounding way better. I also hooked up the HTM3s, plugged in all the B&W's and put in Dark Side of the Moon SACD again. OMG! Even with the ERD's it was amazing. The timbre mismatch from the ERD's to the 804's actually isn't much worse than my old P5's to the 601's. That was surprising. Well at least in music, I'm sure in pink noise I could tell a lot more. I then ran through Transformers 2 again. Wow. Pretty darn impressive. I'm going to do some A/B back to back tests this weekend, but it sure seems like the B&W's were a lot better even in movies. Also this was all without redoing the Audessey setup for the B&W's, so it was all set as it did for the Emo's, which included crossing over the center at 100Hrz, which obviously the HTM can do a lot lower than that.
One thing I did notice that has surprised me. The B&W's seem to play considerably louder then the Emo's. The Emo's are rated at 89db and the B&W's are 90db. Not a huge difference in sensitivity, but they are noticeably louder at the same volume level. Would this have to do with the Emo being a 4 Ohm speaker and the B&W being 8 (well really more like 6) Ohm?
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Jan 15, 2010 13:37:59 GMT -5
SMcBD: Dare I suggest 6.3s + stands? Or will those be too likely to tip over? Especially as an SVS will be involved, the low-end should not be an issue and you would get the creamy mid-range?
You could also have all 3 fronts identical.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 15, 2010 13:57:04 GMT -5
SMcBD: Dare I suggest 6.3s + stands? Or will those be too likely to tip over? Especially as an SVS will be involved, the low-end should not be an issue and you would get the creamy mid-range? You could also have all 3 fronts identical. Nemesis, That was actually my original idea. But 2 things changed my mind. 1, I'm just a tower kind of guy, but 2nd and more importantly is the tip issue. I couldn't think of a good way to stand mount them securely, and I doubt the would be happy hung from the wall. So 8.3's it is. It's not that much more money for the 8.3 compared to 2 6.3, so that's not a big deal. Are you saying the midrange on the 6.3 is smoother than the 8.3? As far as having all 3 across the front I can't really tell a difference when sound moves across, it seems like they are all perfectly matched.
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Post by SeattleHTGuy on Jan 15, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
I'd try setting the Audyssey to 60 Hz for the center and the same for the 804S's. I have been playing around with this and find for most movie/tv watching it sounds (subjective) better when you try and give the HTM3S the low/mid bass as well. Let us know if you can tell with the 804S's as well. I am curious.
For me, it's still a no brainer. I'd keep the B&Ws. They will hold their value, especially since B&W has gone and abandoned the S series and is trying to push everyone in to personal financial collapse with the Diamonds.
Your kids won't knock them over either or at worst, go get a plastic fence to keep them out of your gear. They sell them at BabysRr Us and even Petsmart. They snap together and you can stick them away for viewing listening. I have some old ones and they worked great. Much cheaper than some of the stand solutions out there and the standard spikes for Nautilus, IMHO, are fine.
I am such a crazy loyal fan of B&W's, by my own admission, my telling you to keep the B&W stuff is probably so biased it's a worthless opinion...... but the 804S's are a tad smaller, you say they sound better and a little louder, and the resale value is proven. You also get one fantastic looking and sounding cabinet. Matrix interiors really do work and it costs for the veneers of this quality.
Nuff said....
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Post by Mr. Ben on Jan 15, 2010 14:42:41 GMT -5
I'm probably biased towards the B&W's as well, but I'm not surprised that you prefer them over the 8.3's. This is partially because you have owned B&W for years and like their sound, but also because we're comparing a company that has had a large staff focused on the high-end speaker business for decades, to one that specializes in electronics manufacturing and just got into the speaker business with the help of a speaker design expert. That's not to say that there's anything wrong with the 8.3's, but the cards are stacked against them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 21:27:10 GMT -5
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Post by LuisV on Jan 15, 2010 21:42:22 GMT -5
Very interesting discussion and opinions fellas... bass aside, I agree, the B&W's sound wider, and vocals are slightly smoother over the ERM-1s that I own, but I can't get the price difference out of my head... in respect to new speakers the price difference it's just staggering. You can certainly close the gap if purchasing used; however, I'm a new gear kinda guy...
Either way you slice it... you'll get great sound with either speaker. You just need to justify if the added performance of the B&Ws is worth the price difference...
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Jan 16, 2010 7:29:12 GMT -5
SMcBD: Dare I suggest 6.3s + stands? Or will those be too likely to tip over? Especially as an SVS will be involved, the low-end should not be an issue and you would get the creamy mid-range? You could also have all 3 fronts identical. Nemesis, That was actually my original idea. But 2 things changed my mind. 1, I'm just a tower kind of guy, but 2nd and more importantly is the tip issue. I couldn't think of a good way to stand mount them securely, and I doubt the would be happy hung from the wall. So 8.3's it is. It's not that much more money for the 8.3 compared to 2 6.3, so that's not a big deal. Are you saying the midrange on the 6.3 is smoother than the 8.3? As far as having all 3 across the front I can't really tell a difference when sound moves across, it seems like they are all perfectly matched. I've not actually heard 8.3s, but the 6.3 seems really smooth to me, especially with vocals. Perhaps you could put your 6.3 on (e.g.) L and one 8.3 on R and do an a/b comparison in 2-channel to compare? Set the x-over to maybe 80 so the 8.3 bass is not part of the test as you would presumably use a sub for below that (retest at maybe 60 too)? I wonder what an auto-EQ would look like with this test setup too? If you can see the graphs it might be interesting to compare - although you would also have to swap their positions and compare too ... food for thought maybe.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Jan 16, 2010 7:33:29 GMT -5
Those outriggers look interesting - I'm now thinking those on my 6.3s with a suitable (matching the width of the outriggers) plinth/pillar/base-weighted stand might do the trick (for my final room, they are on small cabinets for now, which is fine in the current (crappy) room).
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 16, 2010 20:22:21 GMT -5
Those outriggers look interesting - I'm now thinking those on my 6.3s with a suitable (matching the width of the outriggers) plinth/pillar/base-weighted stand might do the trick (for my final room, they are on small cabinets for now, which is fine in the current (crappy) room). Those outriggers do seem interesting, but they cost the same as Sound Anchors. The SA's add a substantial amount of I wouls rather get them. Now if SA didn't make anything for your speaker then these are awesome because they are universal.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 16, 2010 20:52:27 GMT -5
OK so I watched Death Race last night on the B&W's (with the RD surrounds), I then watched some key scenes on the Emo's. And then watched GI Joe on the Emo's only.
Surprisingly the Emo's sounded better. Now 2 notes right off the bat. I think the Emo's are placed better, they are wider, also the Audyssey was only run for them, and not on the B&W's. Obviously that will give the Emo's an advantage. I did change the x-over point for the center, but that's it. I also left that the same when I switched back to the Emo's.
A big part of the sound was all 5 speakers being timber matched. I thouhgt the ERD's were matching decently with the B&W's until I switched back to the Emo's and could really tell what a matched speaker set was like.
Also the Emo's soundfield seemed wider (yes they are physically 2-3 feet wider than the B&W's).
On music the B&W's still sound better, I think this just shows how much better the B&W's really are, since the system is calibrated for the Emo's. But it also shows how much it doesn't matter in movies. I will watch a few more movies and some music like this. Then I will swap the B&W's into the wider spot, and calibrate Audyssey with them, and see what it is like.
As it stands right now, it is pretty hard to justify the cost of the B&W's over the Emo's. I still want to keep the B&W's just because I've always wanted them. But in the current situation should I really be spending an extra $3k to get marginally better speakers ?
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Post by LuisV on Jan 16, 2010 23:18:32 GMT -5
That's how I feel... it's a hard decision...
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Jan 17, 2010 6:42:24 GMT -5
3k would get another sub, extra amps, pay for your UMC-1, new projector - which would make the biggest overall difference to your setup is probably what you need to decide.
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Post by Mr. Ben on Jan 17, 2010 9:52:18 GMT -5
It's always hard to justify the price difference in any audio equipment. I'm constantly surprised by how good a simple pair of $200-$500 bookshelf speakers can sound. I recently had a pair of $50 speakers (JD has them now), and when I compared them to a pair of $200 bookshelf speakers, I thought, are these really worth four times as much?
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Post by LuisV on Jan 17, 2010 10:07:53 GMT -5
I think that's a slightly different scenario as this is not a $150 decision... we're speaking of a $1,000 or more. For $150 or even $300 I would jump on the B&Ws no questions asked... when you speak of $1000 or more, now that's a different story.
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Post by SeattleHTGuy on Jan 17, 2010 15:44:53 GMT -5
Shawmcbigdis, I'm kind of bummed about your testing so far. I understand all things kid related as i have two older crumbsnatchers myself but. I'd really love to hear your results in a fair comparison. I'm a huge fan of B&W's but admire the potential value of the Emotiva's. So far, this is what I get from your test. You like the musicallity of the B&Ws. They have somewhat less Bass and less spatial by some degree. 1). You Audyssey EQ'd both listening events to the Emotiva's. I can only see this as making the B&W's worse as you are now calibrating the lows and highs for the Emotiva and sticking these EQ results on the wrong speakers. 2). You have the Emotiva's wider than the 804's and then notice the sound is wider on the Emotiva's. Not too helpful. Why not try this instead. Take the EQ off for both speakers (It's just a button on your receiver) and then stick them as close as possible together. Now you are hearing the speakers without correction and more apples to apples. One other thing. Go back in to your receiver and drop the LFE to your sub and feed all three Emotiv fronts and all three B&W's the full spectrum with a good dynamic movie. Then, please report back with your results. I actually like subjective stuff, so if you say the Emotiva's provide a sound field somewhat nutty with a spice nose. or whatever; I may not know what you mean but I'll enjoy it.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 17, 2010 17:38:17 GMT -5
3k would get another sub, extra amps, pay for your UMC-1, new projector - which would make the biggest overall difference to your setup is probably what you need to decide. Well unfortunately it doesn't work that way. The wife is allowing me to upgrade speakers, I already spent over $1k on an amp and receiver that was "allowed" so buying the cheaper speakers and still spending another $2-3k on gear isn't going to happen.
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