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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2010 19:12:05 GMT -5
Shawn,
I think you'll probably be happy with the Emos, providing you don't set them up next to the B&Ws and play "A-B testman" with them. Your ears will actually re-calibrate themselves to the Emo sound. One big advantage you'll have is that they will be timbre-matched all around. I did not realize how important this was in a surround-sound system until I upgraded my Gallos at the Center and Surround positions to match my Reference 3.1s - whoa!!
The sound became *much* more enveloping, with nary a hitch when effects pan from front to back or side to side. Actually, I was going to recommend that you audition the Gallos before making any purchases. It seems that they meet ALL of your sonic requirements (plenty of bottom-end, a very sweet mid-range, *incredible* tweeter, and a sweet spot about a mile wide - *excellent* dispersion characteristics) and, when purchased used, are well within your budget.
I *know* that everyone thinks their speakers are the best bang for the buck, it's only human nature. But, I used to sell top-shelf hi-fi gear back in the day, and I spent a LOT of time auditioning hi-end speakers in the store, and the Gallos easily compete with and vanquish 'most everything in their price range.
They are the 1st speakers that I've heard in 20 years that reached right into my soul and said "You *will* be buying a set of these, laddie!" However, I could not afford them new, at retail. And I'm no longer in the biz, soooooo, I just figured out exactly what I wanted and then watched Audiogon.com EVERY day for 8 months until the ones I wanted became available for the right price. I did the same with the Surrounds and the Center and ended up with EXACTLY the speakers I wanted, in perfect condition, for about 50% of retail.
Having said all that, I strongly recommend that you sit down with the Emos for the next 25 days and make up your mind if you can live with them for the next 10-15 years, cuz that's what we're talking about here, right? And don't be afraid of being critical, this is *important* stuff and it is required that you are fully satisfied with the sound.
Otherwise, you will be saying to yourself "Damn, for just another coupla K, I coulda had the speakers I really wanted. Oh well, (insert big sigh) I guess I can live with these. For now..."
-RW-
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 6, 2010 1:41:12 GMT -5
RW,
Oh man I wanted an original set of Nucleus Solo's so bad back in the day. Me and my room mates were all young and had to much money in the dot com days and I tried to talk one of them into buying a pair, he went cheap and safe and got some NHT 2.5's instead.
There's never been a dealer near me, so I've never actually heard them. And at this point I'm not willing to throw another contender into the ring. Beside with that 360 degree (or I guess it only like 300 right) tweeter wouldn't they sound a lot like bipoles? Which for movies and or surrounds would be great, but for music would not be. One of the best HT setups I ever heard was all Def Tech dipoles, it was amazing, then I listened to some stereo music and it was absolutely horrible.
Whichever way I go now I will end up with pretty much exact tonal matching. If I keep the Emo's, obviously they all have the same tweeter, oddly they all have different mids, which I am actually a little nervous about, I would think there would be some slight perceptible difference there. But I will get the same thing with the B&W 700's, as I will be picking up the HTM7 center and either 705's or DS7 surrounds, so again exact same tweeter, and very similar mids (well fairly vastly different in the case of the 703's FST and the other speakers, but people swear it matches.
That's actually my reasoning for replacing every speaker, and not just the floor standing mains. Even though all my speakers are B&W's, I have 3 different generations of tweeter here and I can tell the difference, It's bugged me for 9 years. I could live with it, but in the back of my mind I always wanted to change it, now I finally am.
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Post by Mr. Ben on Jan 6, 2010 9:31:32 GMT -5
One of the best HT setups I ever heard was all Def Tech dipoles, it was amazing, then I listened to some stereo music and it was absolutely horrible. Ha! I had a pair of DefTech BP2000's in my home for about a month and came to the exact same conclusion. Very nice enveloping sound for movies, but music was awful. I'll be interested to hear how the Emotiva's and B&W's compare. I've never spent any serious time listening to the Emotiva speakers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2010 9:52:38 GMT -5
Shawn wondered: >> Beside with that 360 degree (or I guess it only like 300 right) tweeter wouldn't they sound a lot like bipoles? Which for movies and or surrounds would be great, but for music would not be. <<
Actually, the 1st time I heard the Gallos, it was in a very nice 2-channel rig. They absolutely blew me away with their musicality, pinpoint imaging, enormous sweet-spot, speed, and top to bottom coherence. There is NO smearing of the image and the soundtsage is incredible.
In my system, I am constantly hearing instruments suspended in the space between, say, the Right Front speaker and the Right Rear speaker. And the sound doesn't float or shift, it remains rock-solid in its positioning. Eerie. This is just one of those designs that works well in almost every situation, whether 2-channel or surround sound.
However, I do have quite a bit of respect for the B&Ws. I never sold that brand, but did listen to them extensively at competitors' stores - ya gotta know what you're up against, right? I would generally steer a B&W enthusiast over to listen to a pair of KEFs or IMFs. Sometimes I was able to win the sale, sometimes not. Either way, that customer ended up with a damn good set of speakers.
I'm sure you will enjoy the Emos, they are very competently designed and the designer definitely knows what he is doing. Good luck, let us know what you hear!
-RW-
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Post by sounder on Jan 6, 2010 18:00:23 GMT -5
Just a thought for you regarding the cost of the 804s. I have the 9NTs, CNT and SNT surrounds. The 9NTs are very close in sound to the 804s, feature the nautilus tweeter and FST, and cost much less. If you got a set of them used (ebay or audiogon), you could get them around 1500, plus the cnt under 1000 and the SNTs around 1k I think. So, you'd spend a lot less, but the 90% of what the 804s would give you. you'd spend more than an emo setup, but I think you would see an improvement in sound quality that didn't cost five times as much.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 6, 2010 18:38:16 GMT -5
Sounder,
That was my plan. As much as I would love to get some 800's, the diminishing returns there are pretty massive. The only real benifits I could see are the larger centers and better dipoles (tweeter in dipole mode) you can get in the 800 series, but man do you have to pay for them.
Unfortunately I just lost out on an eBay auction on a pair of 703's. And the CDM9NT / 703 do not come up for sale very often. Bummer too, because there is an HTM7 and DS7's on audiogon right now, so I would be able to get the whole 700 series matching set. But I'm not going to buy the other 3 if I don't have the mains yet, and might not be able to get them.
I think what I might do now is after I get the Emo's set up I'll see if one of my local dealers will let me home audition a pair of 804's. Since the current 804s should in theory be at least 2 steps about a 703 then if the 804's aren't considerably better to my ears than the Emo's I will just keep the Emo's.
I really hope the Emo's are better, it will be nice to save that money. They better blow me away though as I have wanted a pair of 9NT/703/800 for a long time, and I really don't want to have any regrets about sticking with the Emo's.
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Post by LuisV on Jan 6, 2010 19:13:34 GMT -5
That's my point... the law of diminishing returns always comes into play. I did an A / B between my Matrix 804 and the ERM-1 and the little Emos gave me 85 - 90% of what I was hearing from the B&Ws. Did the B&Ws sound better... yes... did they have deeper / fuller bass... yes... did they have a wider sound field... yes. But... the Emos only cost me $300 for the pair. If today I had to do it all over again and I had to choose between the B&Ws and Emo speakers I'm not 100% sure what I would do as the price difference is huge. Do the B&Ws sound thousands of dollars better than the Emos? That's a decision that you need to make... and yes... a very tough one at that...
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oneliterpeter
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Post by oneliterpeter on Jan 6, 2010 19:23:17 GMT -5
Sounder, That was my plan. As much as I would love to get some 800's, the diminishing returns there are pretty massive. The only real benifits I could see are the larger centers and better dipoles (tweeter in dipole mode) you can get in the 800 series, but man do you have to pay for them. Unfortunately I just lost out on an eBay auction on a pair of 703's. And the CDM9NT / 703 do not come up for sale very often. Bummer too, because there is an HTM7 and DS7's on audiogon right now, so I would be able to get the whole 700 series matching set. But I'm not going to buy the other 3 if I don't have the mains yet, and might not be able to get them. I think what I might do now is after I get the Emo's set up I'll see if one of my local dealers will let me home audition a pair of 804's. Since the current 804s should in theory be at least 2 steps about a 703 then if the 804's aren't considerably better to my ears than the Emo's I will just keep the Emo's. I really hope the Emo's are better, it will be nice to save that money. They better blow me away though as I have wanted a pair of 9NT/703/800 for a long time, and I really don't want to have any regrets about sticking with the Emo's. At the risk of getting slammed... I would say... The Emo's won't even be close to any floor standing B&W's. I've heard them and while the Emo's really are an awesome deal for the money... they are not on par with B&W's.
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Post by LuisV on Jan 6, 2010 21:18:11 GMT -5
I agree... however, it's not a who has the better sound question... it's justifying the price difference and if the difference is worth it to the buyer. Although 14 years old, I wouldn't trade my B&W Matrix 804 Floor standing speakers for the world. They still sound very good to my ears; however, at my stage in life and with the other responsibilities I currently have (2 kids with college on the horizon) I don't think that if I had to do it all over again that I could justify the price difference.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 6, 2010 23:54:04 GMT -5
I agree also, I am not expecting the Emo's to be better than the B&W's (well they may be better than my 15 year old P5's, but the 703 or higher), but will they be close enough that the price difference isn't worth it. to make a nautilus 804 system be worth it the Emo's would have to be no where near as good as everyone makes them out to be. But if they are as good as it sounds like they are, then the price jump from roughly $2500 for the Emo's (all 5) to @ $4700 for used Nautilus 804's and others just isn't worth it to me. Now a used set of 700's will only be about $1k more. While that is almost 50% increase, if the difference in the 703's is easy to spot, even if its only a slight upgrade, but an upgrade none the less. I'm probably willing to pay that premium.
As luck would have it a full 5.1 set of 703,705,HTM7, ASW 750 showed up on Audiogon today. The asking price is rather high, and I don't need the sub, but we'll see if the guy will deal. I may end up with full sets of both brands and be able to do full 5 channel A-B testing. Of course with 6 month old twins I have no idea when I will have the time to play around that much. But I've only got 30 days on the Emo's so I better figure it out, since I don't think the wife will be to happy with me keeping them both, I doubt I can talk her into setting one up in the bedroom :-)
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Post by anejo99 on Jan 7, 2010 0:39:07 GMT -5
I currently have the CDM-7NT's and CNT for my front stage (you got to love that Nauitilus tweeter) and use the ERD-1 for surrounds (4). While I have been please with the B&W's, I just couldn't justify $1K+ per set for the B&W surrounds, thus I went with the Emotiva's and have quite been pleased.
While they certainly have a slightly different sound than the B&W's, given what they perform (i.e. surround duties), I haven't found them to be distracting, in fact I rather enjoy them.
I have also been contemplating switching out my center as the CNT just doesn't seem to have enough punch. While I love the sound of the 7NT's for music, for HT the CNT just doesn't seem to be cutting it for me. Thus I have been looking at the 6.3 to potentially replace it.... which leads to a domino effect that might have me simply replacing all my B&W's with Emotiva gear (i.e. 6.3 or 8.3 to replace the 7NT's) to tonally match the entire set. I figure I might be sacrificing a bit of music performace, but more than make up for it in HT enjoyment.
In the end while I agree the B&W are superior for music, I am just not sold on them for HT use. Thus one might have to ask themselves which is a priority - music or HT?
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Post by SeattleHTGuy on Jan 7, 2010 2:35:00 GMT -5
Well, I still love the Nautilus sound but I am the first to admit B&W Nautilus has zip to do with value. It's got a lot to do with pedigree and furniture grade exteriors.
I also saw some guy on here with a brand new Chicago Condo and two Emotiva Gloss Black towers. I must admit, they looked pretty darn nice in that environment. My house screams Tuscan style Stucco and lots of shades of Brown. The B&W's look great.
I also think B&W leans far, far left to pure musicality. You do lose some of that good old yankee mega-blast capability. I can't wait for anyone to actually slap very expensive 800 stuff up against the Emotiva's; not to trash either but to get opinions. I'm guessing the "speaker mssion" here is very different. Pure musicality vs big bang, big sound, big - big value.
I know my feeble ears and I'll give up a touch of volume and (in the case of my little subs) and low slam for really spectacular imaging, sound, and those wonderful mids and highs. It would also be fun to hear about the 6 series towers vs the Emotiva Towers as the price point is closer. I do think the Vinyl on the cheaper B&W's looks - not so great. But hey, we all have budgets and my first system compromised my Grandpa's very cool and very Tube Scott equipment and some home made speakers. (Literally just two drivers and a kit crossover). I couldn't afford a speaker box. I was also 10. My point, we all have budgets.... even mid 40s career dudes. We can learn about stuff on-line that may be above or below our future price point.
One thing I just gotta add on cost.... Nothing can last as long as good speakers. I am on house number 4 and still have my 805's. If you love the sound of the big Emotiva's..... flippin buy them. If you find the B&W whatevers are 50% better at double the price, I'd probably tell you to buy them instead. Your true cost of ownership over 20 years is minimal between the two. Now if you switch out speakers like you do cheap underwear; disregard and buy something cheap. I just think great speakers have the absolute longest lifecycle of any audio/video component... Spend on speakers first, last and everywhere in between.
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Post by SticknStones on Jan 7, 2010 4:11:24 GMT -5
That's my point... the law of diminishing returns always comes into play. I did an A / B between my Matrix 804 and the ERM-1 and the little Emos gave me 85 - 90% of what I was hearing from the B&Ws. Did the B&Ws sound better... yes... did they have deeper / fuller bass... yes... did they have a wider sound field... yes. But... the Emos only cost me $300 for the pair. If today I had to do it all over again and I had to choose between the B&Ws and Emo speakers I'm not 100% sure what I would do as the price difference is huge. Do the B&Ws sound thousands of dollars better than the Emos? That's a decision that you need to make... and yes... a very tough one at that... I am a very satisfied B&W 804 owner as well! Yes, they were expensive but they are part art and part science and I never get tired of looking at them or hearing them roar. I originally was going to get the 802's for LR and move the 804 to surround but that was in the Texas big house. I do want to get the XPA-2 for LR and use the XPA-3 for center and surrounds. How does the XPA-2 perform with your 804's? Did you have a prior external amp before the XPA-2? Thanks
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 7, 2010 12:50:44 GMT -5
I also think B&W leans far, far left to pure musicality. You do lose some of that good old yankee mega-blast capability. I can't wait for anyone to actually slap very expensive 800 stuff up against the Emotiva's; not to trash either but to get opinions. I'm guessing the "speaker mssion" here is very different. Pure musicality vs big bang, big sound, big - big value. One thing I just gotta add on cost.... Nothing can last as long as good speakers. I am on house number 4 and still have my 805's. If you love the sound of the big Emotiva's..... flippin buy them. If you find the B&W whatevers are 50% better at double the price, I'd probably tell you to buy them instead. Your true cost of ownership over 20 years is minimal between the two. Now if you switch out speakers like you do cheap underwear; disregard and buy something cheap. I just think great speakers have the absolute longest lifecycle of any audio/video component... Spend on speakers first, last and everywhere in between. I completely agree. And I need to remember that I'm not an audiophile. I'm a guy with 2 kids that likes to watch movies and listen to music some times. If I'm honest about my situation, I really should take the big-bang big-value speakers that perform great for HT and pretty good for music, over the speakers that are borderline pieces of art/furniture that are amazing at music, but maybe not as dynamic for movies. I don't know. The Onkyo and XPA-3 will be here tomorrow, Emo speakers will be here next Tuesday. So next week I can start listening to the Emo's. If I'm blown away, then I just stick with them. If not I try and find some 9NT/703's and go from there.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Jan 7, 2010 13:20:17 GMT -5
At the risk of getting slammed... I would say... The Emo's won't even be close to any floor standing B&W's. I've heard them and while the Emo's really are an awesome deal for the money... they are not on par with B&W's. I wonder what a comparison of Emotiva + replacement crossover would be like and where that would leave the price/performance question?
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 7, 2010 13:21:02 GMT -5
Hold the presses. I just picked up a pair of 804s 's on eBay, only $2400! This throws a wrench in all my plans, but they were just to cheap to pass up. They seller has an over 900 rating otherwise I wouldn't have believed it.
Although I just noticed the B&W updated their website today, and the 800s series, is now the "old" model, They officially announced that the entire 800 line is now diamond tweeters. That may lower the price of the 804, but then again it may raise the price as now the 804D2 or whatever they will call it will probably be over $7k!
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Post by headknocker on Jan 7, 2010 13:30:21 GMT -5
At the risk of getting slammed... I would say... The Emo's won't even be close to any floor standing B&W's. I've heard them and while the Emo's really are an awesome deal for the money... they are not on par with B&W's. I wonder what a comparison of Emotiva + replacement crossover would be like and where that would leave the price/performance question? I was wondering the same thing.
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oneliterpeter
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Post by oneliterpeter on Jan 7, 2010 14:23:30 GMT -5
I know my feeble ears and I'll give up a touch of volume and (in the case of my little subs) and low slam for really spectacular imaging, sound, and those wonderful mids and highs. Well you see that's the problem I have with the Emo speakers... They are just absolutely superb at realistic sound reproduction but where they fall short of speakers like B&W's or in my case Martin Logan's is in the area of imaging and sound stage. They sounded great but I never got that 3D effect nor the transparency that the afore mentioned speakers do with ease.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 7, 2010 17:05:19 GMT -5
Hold the presses. I just picked up a pair of 804s 's on eBay, only $2400! This throws a wrench in all my plans, but they were just to cheap to pass up. They seller has an over 900 rating otherwise I wouldn't have believed it. Although I just noticed the B&W updated their website today, and the 800s series, is now the "old" model, They officially announced that the entire 800 line is now diamond tweeters. That may lower the price of the 804, but then again it may raise the price as now the 804D2 or whatever they will call it will probably be over $7k! So the reality of what I've just done is starting to kick in. As I'm looking for matching HTM3s and DS8 or SCM surrounds. Even with saving $600+ on the mains still makes for a heck of a big total price tag. Anyone use S series main's or center with the Other front speaker being the original NT series? I"m thinking I can pick up an HTM1 a lot cheaper than an HTM3s. If it's just a minor tweak between the 2 then hopefully I can get away with it. Also thinking of using the DS7 surrounds instead of the much more expensive DS8. The 8's are probably worth it though, since they have tweeters when in dipole mode, where as the 7's don't. Of course all this depend son if I keep the 804's. I would assume they will be better than the 8.3 Emo's, but they may not be better enough to justify the cost of the entire 5 speaker system. Man that last line was horrible English.
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Post by audiodragon on Jan 7, 2010 17:09:20 GMT -5
I too would love to hear an a/b comparison of the 68x series and the emotiva speakers as they are in the same price range. The current 68x series utilize the nautilus tweeter, and the 683 floor stander has the FST mid driver as well. The 683s and 8.3s are very similar in price, though from what I have read they have different goals to the design.
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