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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 17, 2010 17:46:56 GMT -5
Shawn, I'm kind of bummed about your testing so far. I understand all things kid related as i have two older crumbsnatchers myself but. I'd really love to hear your results in a fair comparison. I'm a huge fan of B&W's but admire the potential value of the Emotiva's. So far, this is what I get from your test. You like the musicallity of the B&Ws. They have somewhat less Bass and less spatial by some degree. 1). You Audyssey EQ'd both listening events to the Emotiva's. I can only see this as making the B&W's worse as you are now calibrating the lows and highs for the Emotiva and sticking these EQ results on the wrong speakers. 2). You have the Emotiva's wider than the 804's and then notice the sound is wider on the Emotiva's. Not too helpful. Why not try this instead. Take the EQ off for both speakers (It's just a button on your receiver) and then stick them as close as possible together. Now you are hearing the speakers without correction and more apples to apples. One other thing. Go back in to your receiver and drop the LFE to your sub and feed all three Emotiv fronts and all three B&W's the full spectrum with a good dynamic movie. Then, please report back with your results. I actually like subjective stuff, so if you say the Emotiva's provide a sound field somewhat nutty with a spice nose. or whatever; I may not know what you mean but I'll enjoy it. Seattle, I agree completely. My reviews so far have not really been fair. Basically waht I am doing is getting the Emo's as good as they can be, and just letting the B&W's try adn compete with that. My theory being that the B&W's are so much better that at best that should level the playing field for the Emo's. And honestly that is about what I am seeing. Movies seem slightly better on the Emo's, but musid still seems better on the B&W's. However after a while I will reverse things. I will put the 804's on the outside of the Emo's, and then calibrate Audyssey on the B&W's. Then I can see what they can really do and how well the Emo's can old up in the same disadvantaged position that the B&W's were in. I decided on this because it is just to time consuming (even with Audyssey) to re-calibrate each time I switch over. Honestly even with giving the Emo's the setup advantage I wasn't expecting them to do as well against the B&W's as they are. I will be very interested to see how well each do when the tables are turned. I may recalibrate for the B&W's tonight, otherwise I will probably wait until next weekend. I figure I have the Emo's for 30 days, so I want to give them as much of a chance as possible. Now on a different topic. Does anyone have a receiver with Audyssey adn use the 6.3 as a center? No matter what I do I can't get Audyssey to set the x-over on the 6.3 lower than 120Hrz. Thi sis way higher than I would assume it should be, seeing as how it sets the ERD's at 100Hrz. It sets the 8.3's at 50 (which sound about perfect to me, since Emo specs them at 45)
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Jan 18, 2010 7:11:50 GMT -5
I think that kind of answers the question so! (or put the money back into the "communal budget" (holiday?).
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Post by Mr. Ben on Jan 18, 2010 13:09:28 GMT -5
I was a little disappointed in the ERD's. I was expecting a much larger rear sound field with the dipoles, but I didn't really get it, and the speakers could still be localized to some extent. This could be because they are mounted in the middle of the room, and not against a wall, so it could be a placement problem, not the speakers themselves. Although I thought it was funny that they also weren't very good for multi channel music (which I expected with dipoles), I tried out Dark side of the Moon SACD, and the sound was good, but the rear were to diffuse. So to localized for surround, and to diffuse for music. I should note that all tests were done with the ERD's in standard bipole mode. I didn't try dipole or inverted dipole, I may try that tonight for music. I was thinking about this issue last night. Monopoles on the sides are perfect for music, while highly-diffuse speakers are best for movies. All of the multi-channel music that I've come across is 5.1, and I'd bet that if you used monopoles for the sides, with an additional pair of back speakers as in a proper 7.1 setup, you'd get all the diffusion you need for movies. So in multi-channel music you only use the 5.1 with the monopole sides, and in movies you add the rears. This gives you the best of both worlds, and seems to be a real good case for going to 7.1, at least in my mind.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 18, 2010 13:46:40 GMT -5
I was thinking about this issue last night. Monopoles on the sides are perfect for music, while highly-diffuse speakers are best for movies. All of the multi-channel music that I've come across is 5.1, and I'd bet that if you used monopoles for the sides, with an additional pair of back speakers as in a proper 7.1 setup, you'd get all the diffusion you need for movies. So in multi-channel music you only use the 5.1 with the monopole sides, and in movies you add the rears. This gives you the best of both worlds, and seems to be a real good case for going to 7.1, at least in my mind. Ben, I had that same exact thought. However that goes against all "conventional wisdom" for surround speakers. Everything I've read says if you are going to mix dipoles and monopoles that the dipoles should be on the sides and the direct radiators in the rear. Of course that is the exact opposite of what you want for music. That is what I like so much about the B&W DS7 and 8, they are switchable between direct radiating and dipole. I think that is actually the best answer. In my current room the back wall is so close (only about 4 feet behind the couch) that I think dipoles would work best in the rear position also. The other thing I am thinking of doing is just moving the 2 surrounds to the rear. Again this goes against what you are supposed to do. But I'm just not getting a real surround experience, I'm getting noise to the left and right of me, not all around me. Of course this change might be even worse for music, since it might help the ERD's be more diffuse like they are supposed to, which would make surround music less correct. I don't know, it's all a game of mix and match until you find what you like.
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Post by Mr. Ben on Jan 18, 2010 14:50:39 GMT -5
That is what I like so much about the B&W DS7 and 8, they are switchable between direct radiating and dipole. I think that is actually the best answer. I never really looked at the DS7 and DS8S before. They look really nice. Too bad about the high price though.
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Post by dotvibe on Jan 19, 2010 5:24:12 GMT -5
Another nice thing about them is that you can trigger them into Dipole or Monopole, if you were clever enough to have a trigger cable laid along with your speaker cables.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 19, 2010 11:37:20 GMT -5
Another nice thing about them is that you can trigger them into Dipole or Monopole, if you were clever enough to have a trigger cable laid along with your speaker cables. Yes that is nice, to bad I didn't run trigger wire with the speaker wires. Besides it's not that big a deal to just walk up to them and flip the switch. So I moved the ERD's to the back wall yesterday. Just a quick switch, I didn't mount them, just put them on stands. So they were only about 1 foot higher than ear level, and the same width as the fron mains. Re-ran Audyssey to get it calibrated, and did some tests. SUrround in movies was a lot better, very immersive. 5.1 music was good, but now it was a lot more diffuse than before, but it still worked. It was probably better than when they were on the sides, because it was just bad placement/acoustics in that room. I need to run some tests with 5.1 music and the ERD's switched to bipole and see what it's like. Another wierd thing. When I ran Audyssey this time, it cam eup with a crossover for the 6.3 at 150Hz! Every time I run it, that speakers gets higher and higher. I emailed Audyssey about it and told them the specs for that speaker are 80Hz, and that it's matching mains are rated at 45 and Audyssey correctly sets them at 50Hz. They said not to worry about it because Audysey correctly measures the response of the speaker in that room that location, so the specs mean nothing as to the real world. I get what they are saying, but why does it keep going up? It started at 100, then 120, now 150. Every other speaker has been the exact same every time. It marks the ERD's at 100, which seem about right given their rating of 80. The other weird part is it marks my old little Mirage enter I am using as a single rear surround for 6.1 at a 40 crossover. But it does it every time, so at least it is consistent. There is no way that little speaker can cleanly go to 40hz though, especially at volume. Then again since that channel is just matrixed, or otherwise interpolated depending on the sound field you've chosen in the receiver I doubt it will ever get sent a full range signal, so I guess it doesn't matter. So I think later this week I am going to switch over and calibrate for the B&W's and see what happens. I'm actually starting to like the Emo's a lot. They are a very nice set of speakers for the money. My wife still likes them better then the B&W's, but we haven't heard the B&W's calibrated to the room yet, so that may change even her position on them. Especially since I am only going to let her do blind A/B after that.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 24, 2010 18:34:42 GMT -5
OK, so I rearranged the speakers and put the B&W's on the outside, so they are now the proper width compared to my seating position. Reran Audyssey for the B&W fronts, with the ERD's as surrounds moved to behind me on stands as apposed to the sides cieling mounted (I had done this for the last few movies I ran on the Emo's and liked it better), and moved my old B&W LCR6 to the rear surround center position as apposed to the old tiny Mirage center I had there. I have one word; WOW. They have a clarity and detail that is hard to put into words. The Emo's sound good, and its not like they are missing anything, but the B&W's are just more precise and clear. It's not like going from bad muddy speakers to something fairly good. It's going from a speaker that is pretty darn good to something that is another level. There is also a precision in the front sound stage that isn't there with the Emo's. When watching a movie on the Emo's you don't really notice in gaps in the front sound stage, but then when you switch to the B&W's you realize what a truly perfect front sound stage sounds like. The B&W's have the bonus of being almost exactly matched between the mains and center, with all drivers matching and the mid and tweeter being in the same orientation. Along with the center being full range and crossed over at the same point as the mains (40 Hz as measured by Audyssey). As for music, even when the system was EQ'd for the Emo's the B&W's bested them. Now they are near perfect. I still don't feel I am getting as wide a sound stage as possible with the B&W's on stereo material, but I'm pretty sure that is a limitation of the room, not the speaker. What I do find interesting is even sitting in the absolute sweet spot the sound stage isn't very wide, but the speakers are near invisible sonicly speaking, it's almost impossible to point out where they are. The really surprising part is when you move out of the sweet spot, and I mean way out, like 10 feet to the outside of the right speaker, sitting in the dining room. Their is still a stereo image from there, the sound still sounds like it is coming from somewhere between the 2 speakers, instead of the one that is closest to you. No other speaker I've had in this room has done that. So, are they worth the price, am I returning the Emo's? I'm still not sure. At my income level at retail price, no way the B&W's are worth it. At the price I paid, which is about 40% under retail it's still a tough call. It still comes out to almost twice as much for the B&W's over the Emo's, for just the 3 front speakers, compared to all 5 for the Emo's. And I still need to get matching surrounds for the B&W's if I keep them, as well as some Sound Anchor stands since the 804's aren't stable enough to feel safe with the kids crawling around. My thought right now is to keep the ERD's if I keep the B&W's until I can find a killer deal on matching surrounds for them. For movies they work pretty good, although they are lacking when it comes to multi channel music. So for now the test goes on. More to come after a few more days of playing with them.
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Post by southpaw on Jan 24, 2010 22:42:11 GMT -5
I'm paying attention. Thanks for the update!
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Jan 25, 2010 4:51:19 GMT -5
Matched fronts do make a difference IMO. I would also be curious to compare cross-over upgraded Emotivas versus the B&Ws, do the B&Ws have better crossovers as standard? Of course the price difference will be less with upgraded crossovers.
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Post by 0pter0n on Jan 25, 2010 12:19:47 GMT -5
Recently I was considering replacing my front speakers (Klipsch KG-4) and went to a B&W dealer, among others. While I didn't fall in love with them (I auditioned the 683's), the experience was provocative.
After speaking with Vince at Emotiva, I tried radically repositioning the Klipsch. Eventually, I found that bringing them much closer in and closer to the side walls with no toe-in gave me a wide, deep sound stage and, most surprisingly, no real "sweet spot". To my surprise, wherever I sat, the integrity of the soundstage was maintained.
Assuming that you have the patience and the acceptance of the end result, it may be that the Emotiva's will respond to this kind of treatment and perform more to your liking.
It's not that I want to in any way discourage you from buying the B&W's, but only to suggest that you could perhaps be sure that you have exhausted what you can get from what you have before moving on - which is what worked for me.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 25, 2010 14:08:29 GMT -5
Recently I was considering replacing my front speakers (Klipsch KG-4) and went to a B&W dealer, among others. While I didn't fall in love with them (I auditioned the 683's), the experience was provocative. After speaking with Vince at Emotiva, I tried radically repositioning the Klipsch. Eventually, I found that bringing them much closer in and closer to the side walls with no toe-in gave me a wide, deep sound stage and, most surprisingly, no real "sweet spot". To my surprise, wherever I sat, the integrity of the soundstage was maintained. Assuming that you have the patience and the acceptance of the end result, it may be that the Emotiva's will respond to this kind of treatment and perform more to your liking. It's not that I want to in any way discourage you from buying the B&W's, but only to suggest that you could perhaps be sure that you have exhausted what you can get from what you have before moving on - which is what worked for me. OpterOn, I'm a little confused with how you positioned your speakers. Do you mean you moved them closer to your seating position, and then further apart from each other, and thus closer to the side walls? This would seem to run contrary to what most everyone considers the "right thing to do" with speaker placement. Pretty much everything says to have them 2-3 feet from side walls, and form an equilateral triangle with the speakers and listening position.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 25, 2010 15:31:25 GMT -5
So I watched 9 on BlueRay last night. Kind of disappointed in the movie, but this thread isn't about movie reviews. Sound was awesome though. I couldn't get to sleep last night because I was thinking about the speakers so much. I'm at a point where I really want to keep the Emo's. They sound darn good, and are super cheap. But the B&W's are damn near perfect. I'm actually surprised how perfect they are in movies. The exact matching center channel makes a huge difference. I guess I could return the 8.3's and just use 3 6.3's, but honestly I think the 6.3 is the week link in the entire Emo line. No matter what I do to it, Audyssey won't set the crossover lower than 120Hz on it, and has set it as high as 150. Every position I try for the ERD's it sets them at 100, which i s pretty much what I expect. I emailed Audyssey about it, and they said to trust the system and that even though the speaker is rated at 80Hz in a perfect world, my room is not a perfect world. And I beleive them as that is the speaker that seems to be holding back the whole Emo setup in my room. The other option is 3 6.2's (with possible ninja upgraded x-overs) and subs on each channel. But then I am looking at a fair amount of money, or maybe a lot of money. I was thinking 6.2's with SVS PB10's, which puts me at $775 per speaker (without upgraded x-overs) which is a few hundred more than the 8.3 6.3 combo. Not bad, but since I am using these subs as the bass section to my main speakers wouldn't I want an extremely musical and fast sub, so I'd probably want at least Plus or Ultras, and that racks up the money pretty fast, and even with PLus's it goes past the price I paid for the B&W's, so that kind of misses the point. But man would it be cool to have 4 SVS subs in my system ;D. Then I also have to wonder when am I going to really start having power problems, 4 SVS subs with over 2000 watts, an XPA3 with 600 watts, Parasound with 250 watts, and then the receiver running speakers 6 and 7, plus everything else including the DLP TV, all on 1 15 amp circuit? Now I'm just rambling. Any chance Emo is goign to make a reference center channel that matches the 8.3's drivers exactly, much like the B&W HTM3? I hate to say it but I think the 6.3 was a mistake on their part. It is already to big to fit in most peoples racks, so you have to make special provisions for it. So if you have to do that, why not just go hog wild and build the perfect match to the 8.3? I guess what I am trying to say in all this is I'm not really sure the B&W's are worth the price, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be happy with the Emo's, so I have no other choice. I've still got a couple weeks of testing to do, but that is definitely the direction I am leaning. Of course Emo and SVS have healthy return policys, so maybe next month I will try out the 6.2/SVS combo idea against the B&W's
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 25, 2010 15:55:39 GMT -5
So I watched 9 on BlueRay last night. Kind of disappointed in the movie, but this thread isn't about movie reviews. Sound was awesome though. I couldn't get to sleep last night because I was thinking about the speakers so much. I'm at a point where I really want to keep the Emo's. They sound darn good, and are super cheap. But the B&W's are damn near perfect. I'm actually surprised how perfect they are in movies. The exact matching center channel makes a huge difference. I guess I could return the 8.3's and just use 3 6.3's, but honestly I think the 6.3 is the week link in the entire Emo line. No matter what I do to it, Audyssey won't set the crossover lower than 120Hz on it, and has set it as high as 150. Every position I try for the ERD's it sets them at 100, which i s pretty much what I expect. I emailed Audyssey about it, and they said to trust the system and that even though the speaker is rated at 80Hz in a perfect world, my room is not a perfect world. And I beleive them as that is the speaker that seems to be holding back the whole Emo setup in my room. The other option is 3 6.2's (with possible ninja upgraded x-overs) and subs on each channel. But then I am looking at a fair amount of money, or maybe a lot of money. I was thinking 6.2's with SVS PB10's, which puts me at $775 per speaker (without upgraded x-overs) which is a few hundred more than the 8.3 6.3 combo. Not bad, but since I am using these subs as the bass section to my main speakers wouldn't I want an extremely musical and fast sub, so I'd probably want at least Plus or Ultras, and that racks up the money pretty fast, and even with PLus's it goes past the price I paid for the B&W's, so that kind of misses the point. But man would it be cool to have 4 SVS subs in my system ;D. Then I also have to wonder when am I going to really start having power problems, 4 SVS subs with over 2000 watts, an XPA3 with 600 watts, Parasound with 250 watts, and then the receiver running speakers 6 and 7, plus everything else including the DLP TV, all on 1 15 amp circuit? Now I'm just rambling. Any chance Emo is goign to make a reference center channel that matches the 8.3's drivers exactly, much like the B&W HTM3? I hate to say it but I think the 6.3 was a mistake on their part. It is already to big to fit in most peoples racks, so you have to make special provisions for it. So if you have to do that, why not just go hog wild and build the perfect match to the 8.3? I guess what I am trying to say in all this is I'm not really sure the B&W's are worth the price, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be happy with the Emo's, so I have no other choice. I've still got a couple weeks of testing to do, but that is definitely the direction I am leaning. Of course Emo and SVS have healthy return policys, so maybe next month I will try out the 6.2/SVS combo idea against the B&W's If I were you I would keep the B&W's. Otherwise you will always keep asking "what if."
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 25, 2010 17:34:37 GMT -5
[quote author=monkumonku board=speakers thread=8445 post=133659 time=1264452939 If I were you I would keep the B&W's. Otherwise you will always keep asking "what if." [/quote] That is definitely the way I am leaning, but man is it a lot of money. If I could get just a little bit more out of the Emo's I would be satisfied with them, especially considering the price difference. The matching center is the real problem. It sounds fine when you have nothing to compare it too, it sounds darn good as a matter of fact. But after hearing the B&W's it crazy, it's like there is just 1 big speaker spread across the front and you can place sound on it wherever you want. I just sent a message to SVS about using the PB10 as the woofer section to the ERT 6.2's, and they think it would be a very good match, and give me what I am looking for. So perhaps I will be trying this out next month
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Post by SeattleHTGuy on Jan 26, 2010 2:28:31 GMT -5
Well, You kind of said what I hear in my system. I actually use DSX wides for movies as well while utilizing a wall of B&Ws. I get a totally seamless and matched front sound stage that simply boggles the mind. I also have recently heard three other home theaters with lesser low priced Def Techs, Boston Acoustics mid stuff, and higher end Monitor Audios and no way do they come to one tenth what my B&W/Emotiva combo can offer. I have the 803S's and the HTM3S as primary fronts and they are just amazing and very well balanced for movies....
So....... Your B&W's cost a fortune, hurt your pocket book and really don't work on a value basis. I don't think you'll get any Nautilus guy to claim low price/cheap/great value...... but given the cabinetry, flawless drivers, and (let's face it) panache/pedigree; I must say you get what you pay for.
If the Emotiva's come somewhat close to the same performance, then you have a decision to make. By your own admission though, the Emotiva center is a poor comparison to the B&W. I must concur that my center is tight, musical, amazing, and still has some serius punch. I think you will be sorely dissapointed if you don't keep it. You gave it a go but really, Nautilus tweeter, Kevlar FST, B&W's great woofers and german crossovers vs what many consider a great value speaker. The price point is radically different...
I have a solution... Go work some overtime/go make some more sales/go get a short time part time job and justify the purchase. I mean really with little ones the B&Ws you have will need to last a good 15 years plus. I can tell you from experience I am as happy today with my first 805s as I was the day I bought them. That is rare in an electronic device. Then take that little extra money you made pushing yourself, pay off the delta between the Emotiva's and your B&Ws and be happy for 20 years plus.
Then you and I can migrate to the movie review section and you can begin saving for your crumbsnatchers future college costs; which most people see as $150,000 per kid (at a public school no less) for our audio engineers to be....
Believe me....... speakers are our least worry.... My son wants a "Real Horse" and my daughter wants to spend a month in Australia with the Koalas and Kangaroos....
Great speakers are a cheap pleasure....
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Post by stuofsci02 on Jan 26, 2010 10:21:51 GMT -5
Hi,
I am new to the forum, but I thought I could contribute.
I also have the B&W 804S, and find them to be one of the best speakers I have heard for the money.. They are not cheap, thats for sure, but you do get what you pay for.
I can certainly understand getting a lot of value from the Emo's, and finding it hard to justify the cost. A few years ago I would have said the same thing. Remember the first $1000 gets you %70 of the way there in a speaker. After that you can spend thousands to get rid of cabinet colorization, better imaging, more detail etc.
One thing I am surprised you have not considered is the B&W 683. This is what I owned prior to my 804S and they are a fantasic speaker for ~$1500 /pair new. In my opinion they are about as close as you can get to the 804S in the B&W line while staying under $2000 and even then there is only the CM9 that can get you closer, but is not much cheaper then the 804.
In fact the 683 uses basically the same FST midrange although it is mounted to the front of the cabinet as opposed to tension suspension from the rear. It uses the same tweeter basically although it is in the cabinet. It uses two aluminum/paper bass drivers instead of the 804S Rohacell drivers. Cross-overs are obviously lower quality.
So if you really like the 804S but don't want the cost I think the 683 will be a good fit.. Of course the 683 has a very similar sound, but it has flaws that speakers in this price range have that the 804 doesnt. To name a few
The cabinet offers more colorization then the 804. The imaging is not quite as good as the 804 The base is more boomy and not a crisp as the 804 There is not quite the seamless performance as the 804 It is not nearly as good looking as the 804.
But reality is, a lot of people who listen casually or to movies might not even notice most of those improvement, unless they really try.
Also, for the kids, the 683 come with a base plinth that makes it almost impossible for an adult to push over. No kid could do it. I have a 2 year old and this is also a concern.
Now she is old enough that she can understand not to touch daddy's toys.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 26, 2010 12:08:38 GMT -5
Hi, I am new to the forum, but I thought I could contribute. I also have the B&W 804S, and find them to be one of the best speakers I have heard for the money.. They are not cheap, thats for sure, but you do get what you pay for. I can certainly understand getting a lot of value from the Emo's, and finding it hard to justify the cost. A few years ago I would have said the same thing. Remember the first $1000 gets you %70 of the way there in a speaker. After that you can spend thousands to get rid of cabinet colorization, better imaging, more detail etc. One thing I am surprised you have not considered is the B&W 683. This is what I owned prior to my 804S and they are a fantasic speaker for ~$1500 /pair new. In my opinion they are about as close as you can get to the 804S in the B&W line while staying under $2000 and even then there is only the CM9 that can get you closer, but is not much cheaper then the 804. In fact the 683 uses basically the same FST midrange although it is mounted to the front of the cabinet as opposed to tension suspension from the rear. It uses the same tweeter basically although it is in the cabinet. It uses two aluminum/paper bass drivers instead of the 804S Rohacell drivers. Cross-overs are obviously lower quality. So if you really like the 804S but don't want the cost I think the 683 will be a good fit.. Of course the 683 has a very similar sound, but it has flaws that speakers in this price range have that the 804 doesnt. To name a few The cabinet offers more colorization then the 804. The imaging is not quite as good as the 804 The base is more boomy and not a crisp as the 804 There is not quite the seamless performance as the 804 It is not nearly as good looking as the 804. But reality is, a lot of people who listen casually or to movies might not even notice most of those improvement, unless they really try. Also, for the kids, the 683 come with a base plinth that makes it almost impossible for an adult to push over. No kid could do it. I have a 2 year old and this is also a concern. Now she is old enough that she can understand not to touch daddy's toys. stuofsci02, I've thought about that, but I wanted something better. I know the current 600 line is amazing for the price range it is in, but I wanted something closer to the 800 series, I just ended up actualyl getting the 800's I buy just about all my audio gear used. High end audio equipment is well taken care of, easy to buy on the used market, and a huge bargain compared to new. So I'm not talking about list price here on the 800's. However it is still a good chunk of change to be sure. My Original idea was a pair of 703's, with either an HTM7 or original N-HTM1 center. I happened upon the 804s pair for a great price and just went for it. What this is shown me is how impoortant the center channel is, and how amazing it is when it is truely matched. There is no truely matching center for the 683. Yeah there is a 600 center with an FST, but it is not an exact match to the 683. With the 800's it's an exact freaking match. Like SeattleHTGuy said, it is absolutely seamless across the front sound stage. This is more impressive to me than even the amazing sound quality of the 804's. As far as I've been able to find there is no other set of speakers that offer full range towers, and perfectly matching full range center channels. Thus my idea of going 3 matching monitor type speakers with subs on each channel.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 26, 2010 12:46:13 GMT -5
Well, You kind of said what I hear in my system. I actually use DSX wides for movies as well while utilizing a wall of B&Ws. I get a totally seamless and matched front sound stage that simply boggles the mind. I also have recently heard three other home theaters with lesser low priced Def Techs, Boston Acoustics mid stuff, and higher end Monitor Audios and no way do they come to one tenth what my B&W/Emotiva combo can offer. I have the 803S's and the HTM3S as primary fronts and they are just amazing and very well balanced for movies.... So....... Your B&W's cost a fortune, hurt your pocket book and really don't work on a value basis. I don't think you'll get any Nautilus guy to claim low price/cheap/great value...... but given the cabinetry, flawless drivers, and (let's face it) panache/pedigree; I must say you get what you pay for. If the Emotiva's come somewhat close to the same performance, then you have a decision to make. By your own admission though, the Emotiva center is a poor comparison to the B&W. I must concur that my center is tight, musical, amazing, and still has some serius punch. I think you will be sorely dissapointed if you don't keep it. You gave it a go but really, Nautilus tweeter, Kevlar FST, B&W's great woofers and german crossovers vs what many consider a great value speaker. The price point is radically different... I have a solution... Go work some overtime/go make some more sales/go get a short time part time job and justify the purchase. I mean really with little ones the B&Ws you have will need to last a good 15 years plus. I can tell you from experience I am as happy today with my first 805s as I was the day I bought them. That is rare in an electronic device. Then take that little extra money you made pushing yourself, pay off the delta between the Emotiva's and your B&Ws and be happy for 20 years plus. Then you and I can migrate to the movie review section and you can begin saving for your crumbsnatchers future college costs; which most people see as $150,000 per kid (at a public school no less) for our audio engineers to be.... Believe me....... speakers are our least worry.... My son wants a "Real Horse" and my daughter wants to spend a month in Australia with the Koalas and Kangaroos.... Great speakers are a cheap pleasure.... SeattleHTGuy, I have been watching your theater evolve and drooling over it! I wished I lived in WA so I could come take a listen. What's really funny is your experiences with them are a big reason want to keep them, it's also a big reason I want to get rid of them. The keeping them part is obvious, for all the reasons you've stated, and that amazing matching sound field we both get is to just die for. The getting rid of part because I've seen the road you go down when you get into speakers like these, and I'm not sure I can afford it in the long run. 5,7,9 even 11 matching speakers? Even if we are just talking 7.1 (which is all my Onkyo will do at once, although it will do backs, heights and wides, I can only do 1 at a time, although I can have all of them hooked up at once, kind of weird but handy I guess), and the cheapest matching speaker being some used SCM-1's (which aren't an exact match but even B&W says it acceptable for S and D series fronts), we are talking about another @ $2500 on top of the fortune I've already spent on the front 3. And then there is electronics. The XPA-3 I have is pushing them ok, it would seem. But based on everything I've read, and your experience I really should have XPA-1's for the front 3, there's another $3k So for an HT upgrade that I had planned on spending maybe $5k on, I'm now over $10k But I guess that is the same as any project isn't it? And that's going with "cheap" Emo gear, not the standard Classe or other type gear that most people think needs to be paired to these types of speakers. The good thing about the 800's is I will happily keep them for 15-25 years. I kept my B&W P5's for almost 10 years. I thought about upgrading, but never really needed to so bad to actually do it. With these the only thing I could see upgrading to is something with a Marlan head and maybe diamond tweeter. And even then it would be hard to keep that perfectly matching center channel. So while I have you hear, I noticed you have di-poles for your rear surround I believe? What is your take on the di-pole versus mono-pole thing? I'm trying to decide between a pair of DS7's or SCM-1's the the surrounds. In my current room nothing sounds good to the sides of me, so I am going to mount the left and right surround behind me about 4 feet, and probably about 4 feet above ear level (there's just no good place to mount surround in my house, and the ceiling mounted to the side option just hasn't worked out very well) I am currently using the ERD's on stands behind the couch and I like it, which is making me lean towards the DS7's. But I bet if I just put 3 or 4 SCM's back there it would be even better, especially for 5.1 music. But then again I can jsut switch the DS7 into monopole mode. But it's a 700 series speakers, not an 800. There's the DS8s but those things are just to far out of my price range.
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Post by stuofsci02 on Jan 26, 2010 14:04:06 GMT -5
I agree completely...
I was under the impression that you were still thinking about keeping the Emo's. I have not heard them before, but I would imagine they would be in similar class to the 600 series B&W at the price point. I wanted to pose an alternative to keeping a bit of the B&W sound at the Emo' price point.
That said, I would keep the 804S for sure especially for what you got them for, but everyones value/permance ratio is different. I am still looking for a used HTM3S as when I bought my 804S a month ago I could not get a HTM3S in rosenut.
Let me know if you have a HTM3S in rosenut for sale.
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